Episode 052 - Christopher John Garcia

In today's episode, I welcome Christopher John Garcia! Chris has had an amazing career journey as a museum curator and historian for the Computer History Museum, as well as podcaster and painter, and he talks about everything from AI-generated art to his podcast that discusses pieces of artwork in under three minutes. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of one of Chris' original pieces of artwork!)

 

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Episode 52 - Christopher John Garcia

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen:  Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Christopher John Garcia, who is a curator, historian, and podcaster, and I'm just so excited to chat with him all about art and all the different ways that he has engaged with art and that he's currently still doing. And so thank you so much for being here, Chris. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:01:00] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, thanks so much for having me always glad to chat.

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. If it's about art, I'm in.

[00:01:05]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well again, thanks for being here. And I would just love if you would share maybe a little bit about your background, how you got involved in your various art forms, and maybe a little of where you are today, too.

[00:01:21] Christopher John Garcia: Cool. Well, it's started long, long ago. 1999. I became a curator at the Computer History Museum and my focus was on computer graphics, music and art with an emphasis on early computer art. So 1950s through about 1980. And by going into that, you know, I had a little bit of an art history background. I minored in it in college and I've always been an art nerd. And I ended up starting a couple of podcasts that were actually centered around early computer art. One was called " Engineers and Enthusiasts," which is on a hiatus as soon as I can find all my files. But the second one is a "Three-Minute Modernist," which is, I take a single artwork usually, and I break it down in three minutes as sort of a, an emotional impact statement is what I do in three minutes, which can be a lot harder for big pieces than little you'd be surprised. But yeah, and so all of that. Then for some reason, I ended up staying home a lot in 2020, and I decided, you know, maybe I should become a painter. And so I, you know, I had never painted before. And so I decided, well fine. And I started doing a lot of my own paintings, which are semi-abstract expressionists works. What I usually do is I just squeeze paint directly onto paper, put another piece on top of it and then peel them apart. And then I'll do this with several sheets. So it's sort of a combination printing, painting methodology. But yeah, so it's, I'm your basic all around art nerd.

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. Well, I am so excited to hear more about all of the different things, but especially the podcast. I'm so intrigued by that concept. I love it. What a challenge too, so kudos to you. But yeah. Okay. So breaking down artwork and sort of talking about it and having the constraint of three minutes, first of all, where did that idea come from? And then I guess second of all, how hard is that?

[00:03:16]Christopher John Garcia: Well, the idea actually came from a Doctor Who podcast. There is a Doctor Who podcast called "Two-Minute Time Lord." And it is it takes a Doctor Who episode or a topic surrounding Dr. Who and does a two minute episode. That's basically what you would say around the water cooler. And I figured, you know what? If it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough to be stolen by the gander. And I decided to take that concept and apply it to art because one, art has sort of discreet chunks. And I was seeing a lot of works that were-- I wouldn't say small-- but they were works that you could sort of come up with at least a nugget that you could expand on in for a couple of minutes without problem.

[00:04:03] And I learned that by looking at a discreet portion, it gave you one, a chance to really sort of look across the board. You could look at one piece from various areas, but two, it allowed you to go really fast. And so my proof of concept was a good five episodes before I released anything and realized, yeah, this will work. And then I realized that if I kept it to just modern and contemporary art, it would allow me to single out one area instead of going all the way around the world, having to deal with all the things, 'cause once you get into the more realist stuff and the movement and the genre works, you kind of get, you have to go longer. But with the contemporary stuff, you could more deal with the impact of the work on particularly, in this case, me and how it emotionally triggered sensations and feelings and take it sort of a little bit out of a, sort of a more academic realm and into a realm of art appreciation that I really love. Things like, you know, Sister Wendy, for example,  used to be a favorite of mine, but there's not really one of those for contemporary arts, so much that deals directly with individual pieces. And, you know, I figured it'd be a great place to go. And I realized that "art podcast" is a crowded field. And I said, me too.

[00:05:28]Lindsey Dinneen:   Indeed. Well, good for you. And again, I love that concept and I just think that's so cool. So, okay. So in dealing with modern and contemporary art, are you-- just out of curiosity-- are you going to galleries and being inspired by something particular or are you finding things on the internet or how is your process of deciding which art to kind of feature and unpack?

[00:05:54] Christopher John Garcia: Well, I have a very complex algorithm to do that. Random. Basically, yeah, I go to a lot of museums. In particular, I go to SF MOMA, the Anderson collection at Stanford, the Cantor Art Museum when I can get there to moment itself. And I also have a massive collection of photographs because I'm that guy at a museum who takes a picture of everything. So it's really based largely on what I encounter typically at museums. I do some web stuff. In particular, I'm starting to do more stuff with Instagram artists who I meet typically through Clubhouse who are working. And I find pieces that really resonate with something I speak of a lot. Like the next issue I'm doing is about a work that very much reminds me of two of my favorite artists, Lichtenstein and then Sam Francis, and it looks like what happened if they were to work together.

[00:06:46]But yeah, it's all over the place.  One of our recent episodes was about the work of Sol LeWitt that they turned into an app. I think it was by The Met, but it might've been a sort of an associated group that was how Sol LeWitt and his work-- and it's this very contained app that actually gives you a lot of different views into how Sol LeWitt goes. So it's a little bit across the board. I do some video art, a little bit of music, but I tend towards sound art and soundscape type stuff. And sort of looking at how they are still, it's all about the effect of you more emotionally, but also there's sort of what I call the emotional intellect, which is a thought that you have that isn't necessarily logical or reasonable, but it is a thought that provokes that same sort of region.

[00:07:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Very cool. Well, and you know, random is good too. I like complex algorithm. That was entertaining. So, okay. So yeah, that sounds like a really interesting way to go about it in terms of, you know, it's, it's also just like, well, what is speaking to me right now? And then, so I'm curious, in your process for these episodes, I know you've talked about maybe unpacking it sort of on an emotional level in what it evokes, but are you also going into the history? Are you looking into the context behind it from the artist's point of view or mostly just sticking with your own personal interpretation?

[00:08:20]Christopher John Garcia: You kind of have to do both. And you know, for example, if I talk about "Guernica" by Picasso, you kind of have to say the Spanish Civil War happened. But you don't necessarily have to go into specifically Picasso's long history in Cubism, his blue period, but you kind of have to make nods toward them . But what's really fascinating in a work like-- "Guernica" is a great example, and an episode I haven't done-- is when you pull out an aspect that has an emotional impact on you and for me, it's that, that wailing mother with her hands up and that sort of disjointed head that emotional impact also triggers an idea that, "Oh, well, this actually very much speaks to Picasso's Cubist period, this very much has this sort of the blue period emotional impact that he carried through the early part of his career." So it sort of naturally flows out of that, that you do deal with some of the, the history and the technique aspect. I don't deal deeply with technique most of the time, largely because art technique is still a little bit mysterious to me, but I really do try. You know, art has, if I decided to go in all art history nerd, like I often do with my wife, sadly it would be a six hour podcast.

[00:09:44]Lindsey Dinneen: So then in knowing yourself, you know what you need to limit yourself to. I like it. Yeah. I like it. Okay, cool. Well, okay. So your career is very cool and very unique, and I'm just curious, how do you sort of fall into an-- obviously you didn't fall into it-- but fall into a job like that because, I mean, what, what was your background that enabled you to then become this, this curator of a museum? That's just really interesting.

[00:10:14] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. Funny, you should ask. I was a floor worker, I basically a docent and tour guide and someone who told you to stop touching objects at the old Computer Museum in Boston. And it was slowly falling apart and getting ready to close. It would eventually be bought out by the Museum of Science. And I grew up in the Bay Area and I was out in Boston at that museum, but they had an affiliate in California. So when I went home for Christmas, one year I decided to visit and they said, "Yeah, we've got this job opening." And I said, "I will apply for this job because Boston is cold." And I ended up getting the job. Literally I fell into it because no one else wanted the job. It was $12.50 an hour. And no one else wanted that in Silicon Valley at that point except for me.

[00:11:05]And yeah, for 20 years that's what I did and what was great is that I was largely in charge of my own research interests. And that was fascinating. When you give the freedom to a curator to go and investigate what truly interests them and what they think is missing in the museum, what you gain is an incredible amount of insight and a lot of extra labor from the person who's actually doing the research. And it turned out that a lot of the stuff that I was doing was not only stuff that we didn't know previously, but we didn't see how it connected to the bigger world. And it was just a great job. 20 years. I got laid off in 2019, sadly. Hashtag #learntofundraise. But the real, the real fascinating thing about, you know, lucking into this gig, like I had my art history background, but really it was the fact that I knew how to give a really good tour, ended up getting me the job and, you know, I held onto it because it's just a thing that I really understood. And I think I really grew up with the museum itself.

[00:12:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Cool. How incredible. And I love that you were given that autonomy and freedom to explore the things that interested you and then get to just learn and grow. That's really cool. I think that's awesome. And so what was the most surprising thing maybe that you learned along that journey?

[00:12:36]Christopher John Garcia: So it, it's both surprising-- and then when I think about it, not at all surprising-- I got to go and meet a artist by the name of Harold Cohen. . Initially I knew him, his sort of work from the sixties and very early seventies as an abstract painter, sort of along the lines of if Hawking was working completely... David Hockney, not Hawking. Hawking is the scientist. Hockney was working completely abstract. Very, very great color palette, amazing line, but he got very interested in artificial intelligence and developed a system called Aaron, the AARON Paint System, which he developed for almost 40 years. And I got to spend a couple of days with him.

[00:13:28] And what was so surprising was he was talking about when he got into AI, it wasn't that-- the art community naturally sort of rejected the work because it wasn't clear who was the artist? Was it Harold Cohen or was it AARON, the Paint System that he developed. And it wasn't that 'cause that I understood, but it was that when you program a system to create art, it is naturally going to attempt to create art in the mode of its creator. Because the creator understands art in that way. So all AARON is a set of rules, but when you define a set of rules, you're going to define it with your own biases already installed. And it's fascinating to see that.

[00:14:23] And I managed to also connect with another computer music pioneer, who also does visual arts with his programs, guy by the name of David Cope. And he recognized that. And what he did to avoid that was he made it possible to input external work by, in his case for music mini files, from, you know, Shostakovitch, Scott Joplin, Bach, and so he removed himself from the set of rules. The rules were defined by the input, and it was so interesting that I never thought in a million years that just setting a set of rules into a computer program would actually have that much effect. And then when I thought about it, it was like, "Yeah, of course that's how you would do it." And then I realized, wait, there's a way to do it where it's not actually your rules. It's someone else's. I just love that.

[00:15:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh my goodness. That is so cool. I didn't even know that those technologies existed. So that's really fascinating to me that that's even a thing. How cool!

[00:15:27] Christopher John Garcia: Well, what's incredible about that is right now, we are in an absolute Renaissance of AI art. And it's scary because it is very, very quickly being monetized. We saw some of the first works done almost. All the major AI art is being done in Europe right now. In particular there's our groups in Amsterdam, in a couple different places in France, England. And what's amazing is that now they're starting to go to auctions and fetching high sums, but this isn't where we're going to see AI art. We're going to see AI art in hotel lobbies, hotel rooms, any place where large-scale art creation is necessary. And right now, almost all that work is outsourced typically to China or small artists who are willing to work for relatively cheap for reproduction. In this case, it's highly possible that AI will be creating all the art we encounter in public corporate spaces, and that's a very big change and will have a very big impact on not only the art market, but the art market that no one thinks about: the commercial art market for commercial properties.

[00:16:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Hm. So do you think that that's a good thing or is it not necessarily inherently good or bad? It just is different.

[00:16:45]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. That's... I go back and forth and it depends on how much I like computer programmers at the moment. I think it is a good thing in that we are developing systems that are able to get art out more quickly. And I think it's a bad thing of course, because it is going to put some artists out of work, but by having the work that can get out more quickly, it is going to drive the art market in general broader. And that's going to allow more artists to actually get work, to get commissions. Now, how, how that drives against one another, it's hard to tell. And new technologies and art are changing everything. And so it's a really, we're on kind of a knife's edge and we could fall either direction. We could either end up with a market that is an, a, an output that is AI driven. We have very little, as of yet, AI generated art that has made it into the museum space. And when you really look at the history of art, it's the stuff that gets into the museum space that ends up being the most significant. We're still seeing a massive influx of artists working today who are being displayed in museums. So I think the human is still going to be the more significant player in what art means and becomes, but I think AI is going to be a major part of what sells and that, you know, who knows which direction that'll go.

[00:18:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting to follow that journey then and see what does end up happening and how does it twist and weave through different avenues and yeah, that's going to be really different. Like, I'm, I'm just wrapping my head around it right now, thinking about it, because again, I didn't know these technologies existed, so I'm like, huh?  Okay. So, you know, you mentioned that you started taking that painting. What kind of artwork do you tend to lean towards with your own? Is it more abstract? Is it more realistic? What do you like?

[00:19:05] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, it's a hundred percent abstract just because I don't have the skills to actually do representational. But one of the things on my Instagram is that I'll post an image where it's literally, I squoze three tubes of paint onto a piece of paper. I covered it with a little glue and I put another piece of paper on top of it and I scan it later, usually after it dries, but when it doesn't dry, my wife gets mad. And people will start to recognize that, "Oh, that's obviously a picture of X, Y, and Z." And one of the other things I do on the side is I publish zines and I had squished a whole bunch of acrylic paint that I just tossed onto a piece of paper and I peeled it off, but I had let it dry a little bit before I squished it. So it made this sort of feathery looking look and it looks exactly like the cryptid known as Moth Man.

[00:19:56] And at that point I realized that something there's something in the sort of the chance operations space, that where even if you're not actively trying to create representational image, representational image will come forth. And so that picture of Moth Man, as I call it now, is a picture of Moth Man, even though I wasn't painting Moth Man. I wasn't painting anything. I was just putting paint on paper and that really, for me, raises some interesting questions as well. If I didn't mean to paint Moth Man, did I paint Moth Man? And the answer for me to that is, of course I'm painted Moth Man. What, are you crazy? Although I could get into the whole thing of that. Maybe Moth Man is some sort of entity that was working through me to make sure I painted a painting of him. But that might be a bridge too far, even for me.

[00:20:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. Of course. Well, that's cool. Oh my goodness. Okay. And so is that something that you anticipate you'll continue doing even sort of after things hopefully return to normal?

[00:21:00]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, I think what's really fascinating is that once I realized I loved the act of painting, I realized even more that I loved the material of painting. And I, I think painting can be a process that is laborious, that is tedious, that is mind numbing. It can also be one that is brief, that is freeing, that is inexact. And for me, it's definitely the latter, but the things that I love about it is just looking at how things react with one another. Like if I put oils and acrylics and inks on the same page and put a little Elmer's glue on top of it, and then put another page on top of it, the way it feels under the hand. Like that's a sensation that I can't think of repeating. And it's one that doesn't take long. It's just a couple of minutes even. And there's that sensation that's an irreplaceable thing. It's the aspect of the artists that I don't know if I ever really understood until I started painting myself, is that there are sensations to this that don't exist many other places. That the actual act of making marks on paper, on a canvas, whatever has a feeling. And when you find a feeling that is pleasurable or relieving or funky, you know, you're going to want to keep going back to that. So I don't see myself stopping painting. Probably painting a little less, but definitely it's something I'll keep doing that. And I have an Instagram to fill, so yes.

[00:22:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, excellent. Well, I'm just curious. I know you've gotten to meet some pretty cool artists yourself-- and obviously your experiences as a curator and as a podcaster have probably lent themselves to some really memorable moments-- but I wonder if there's anything that kind of really stands out to you as an encounter with art that was like just something to remember to kind of file back there and return to every once in awhile.

[00:23:17]Christopher John Garcia: Oh yeah. Bunch. I mean my first time I ever met an artist artist-- well, the first time I ever encountered an artist, this I should actually point out-- was Andy Warhol. And I didn't get to meet him, but I sat right behind him at Madison Square Garden at a WWF wrestling show.

[00:23:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:23:39] Christopher John Garcia: And he was always in the front row and always taking pictures with his little camera. But little seven year old me, I couldn't talk to them because even I knew who he was and I was seven, but I got to know Robert Rauschenberg a little bit because he would visit our college and he was a fascinating human in many ways. But what I learned when I went to a big exhibit of his at SF MOMA was that his interests were so broad because he was so interesting and wanted to make the world as interested in things as he was. And it was like one of the best things. Again, this is something that people may not realize, every pop artist loves wrestling. I do not know why this is true, but everyone I've met-- Rauschenberg, Warhol, didn't meet him, but still-- Lichtenstein, Marisol, all of them love wrestling. And what Robert Rauschenberg said that one time when we were-- 'cause you'd stopped by class, then a lot of us would go out drinking afterwards-- he said "You know, you have to be careful how you are positioning your art, whether or not it is referencing the zeitgeists or referencing some niche topics that only two people in the gallery will get." And it's, you know, if you do a painting of whole Cogan, everyone will get it. It's a zeitgeist. But if you're talking about Pak Song and Dusty Rhodes, you're talking about niche.

[00:25:09] And at that point, one, this was obviously made for me, even though he didn't know it. But two, he was really saying something that I bought into because you know, oh, this idea that there is a universality, but there's also a place for niche, which I love. But he was a really fun guy. I didn't see him after probably '97, but really had a good time with him. And I was very lucky. Another guy who's known more for music, but is actually a wonderful visual artist, is Mark Mothersbaugh of Divo. And I got to interview him, do an oral history with him. He has a fascinating eye for the world. And every day he writes one postcard size image he creates and he has thousands of them and they're beautiful. But then he was also doing this a very simple thing where he took classic, often Victorian, sometimes early 20th century photographs and uses Photoshop to place a mirror image of it. So it gives you that sort of awkward exactly symmetrical look.

[00:26:14] But yeah, those have been two of my favorite. I've been lucky that I've gotten to meet a lot of really fun artists through the museum. You know, there were a lot of folks who didn't feel like early computer was being talked about enough and we're very happy to have anyone who would be interested in this stuff. But always, you know, artists like everyone, there are good ones who are wanting to talk to you all day long. And there are others who don't. You sort of learned which is which.

[00:26:44]Lindsey Dinneen: For sure, for sure. Well, yeah. And, you know, just, it's so funny 'cause obviously everyone has different personalities and I would second that some artists are a little more approachable than others, but you know, that is okay. Well, I'm sure that some of our listeners are going to be super interested in your work, both as a podcaster and as a painter. And I'm wondering if there are ways for us to, of course, A) listen to your podcast and then B) check out some of your artwork.

[00:27:14] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, there absolutely are. I have my podcast on the internet,  just look for "Three-Minute Modernist" and you will find it all over the place. And then you can find my artwork and pictures of my kids, also things I cook, on Instagram at Johnny Eponymous, J O H N N Y E P O N Y MOU S. I'm also the same thing on Twitter, the same thing on Facebook, the same thing on pretty much everything. Since Friendster, I've been Johnny Eponymous. But yeah, and I'm, yeah, I'm all over the place. It's hard to miss me.

[00:27:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, first of all, thank you just so much again for being here and sharing your stories. And I'm just so fascinated learning about how technology and art intersect, and that's just so cool that you shared that very unique perspective. So I definitely appreciate that. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:28:10]Christopher John Garcia: Whew...

[00:28:10]Lindsey Dinneen: I know.

[00:28:11] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.

[00:28:12] Lindsey Dinneen: It's pressure.

[00:28:12] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.

[00:28:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:20]Christopher John Garcia: Art is that thing you do that is mostly useless, but ultimately important.

[00:28:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Care to elaborate, or are we just going to leave that be?

[00:28:32]Christopher John Garcia: I'll elaborate slightly. It is the shape of the tool, not the use of the tool, I think is the way I, I wrote it in a paper once when I was trying to be smart. It's really about something that brings you an emotional experience of some sort that isn't just because of what it does, but what it is. And so, you know, we have paintings around the house 'cause my wife's mother's a actual painter who paints actual paintings. And every time I see one of them, it makes me feel hungry and it's because there's all sorts of food in it. But, you know, I consider that to be art because it draws an emotion out of me.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure, sure. Perfect. Okay.

[00:29:18] Christopher John Garcia: It's also a good painting of food.

[00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, there you go. Perfect. Oh yeah. Well, that's a, that's a very unique answer and I like it. Okay. So, secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:29:32]Christopher John Garcia: To make art. I mean, really, that's what it comes down to, I think. Wanting an artist to be a philosopher, a spokesman, any of that? Really not as important as the fact that they just create the work.

[00:29:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. And then finally, I'll define my terms a little bit in this last question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and shares a little bit of context behind that, whether it's program notes or the inspiration or a title. Just something to give the viewer an idea of what went into the creation. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does put their work out there, but doesn't provide the context and therefore leaves it entirely up to the viewer to interpret it at will.

[00:30:25]Christopher John Garcia: I'm going to throw you a curve ball and say there is no such thing as an inclusive artist.

[00:30:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Ooh. Tell me more.

[00:30:33]Christopher John Garcia: Everything an artist does is meant to be interpreted, is meant to be placed into a context. So that would be now exclusive. Nevermind. But yeah, they, every purpose choice you make is giving you more of a clue. If an artist says, "This is not titled," it doesn't mean he is just-- I don't care what you call it-- it's, he's making a choice. He doesn't want to give you the direction, but there is a direction and, you know, I've, I always think of-- I think it was Barnett Newman who once said I paint a zip. I put a line down a canvas. To me, that's a line. To someone else that could be a streetlight. And we're both right.

[00:31:25]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah.

[00:31:26] Christopher John Garcia: And I think that, you know, I think everything an artist does has the reason that it's done to bring about some thought, even if that thing that they do isn't giving you any background, but is giving you the lack of background. That seems strange, but in my brain it works.

[00:31:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I really, that is the most unique answer I've received for that question. So I like that. That is a really interesting point. So thank you for sharing that perspective because I really that's going to make me think about that even more. So thank you for that.

[00:32:05]Christopher John Garcia: I do what I can.

[00:32:06] Lindsey Dinneen: I know. I appreciate it. Well, thank you just so very much for being here today, Chris, I really appreciate your time and you sharing your background and what you're up to. And I'm so excited about your podcast. And I encourage all of our listeners to also check out Chris's podcast and subscribe and all that good stuff, because obviously he brings a cool, unique perspective and it's three minutes. So, like the perfect way to just start your day. So thank you again, Chris. And I just want to commend you for everything that you're doing and sharing art with the world. I really think that that's important and kudos to you.

[00:32:49]Christopher John Garcia: Well, thank you much. It's been so much fun.

[00:32:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Yeah. Well, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:33:04] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.