Artfully Told

Episode 071 - Ashley Taylor

In this week's episode, I again welcome Ashley Taylor! Ashley was our very first podcast guest and we're delighted she came back to share about her manifesto to artists about the importance of intentionality in every choice when creating and sharing their work. She offers blunt yet insightful advice about how artists can be meaningful in their works' presentation. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Ashley & Lindsey when they were promoting the 2019 premiere of "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker.")

 

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Episode 71 - Ashley Taylor

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am extremely delighted to have as my guest today a returnee. She actually had the very, very first episode that I ever released with a guest was with Ashley Taylor. So thank you, Ashley, for being back. I'm just beyond excited. Ashley is a dancer. She is a choreographer, teacher. She is also a writer. In fact, maybe sneak peak. Can I say that you're working on a novel?

[00:02:47] Ashley Taylor: Of course you can!

[00:02:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah. And then also, goodness gracious. I think your artistic list goes on and on. You can paint, draw, what can't you do? Maybe we should start there.

[00:03:02] Ashley Taylor: Well, I'm going to answer that question later.

[00:03:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair. That's true. Anyway, artist extraordinaire, very creative and very good at what she does. So, Ashley, thank you for being back.

[00:03:17] Ashley Taylor: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to chat with you again about artsy things.

[00:03:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first I'm really curious to know sort of what what you've been up to lately, especially considering, you know, when we did our recording last year, of course it was COVID central and it kind of still is, but things have changed and opened back up. So I'm curious how you've been able to navigate sort of getting back into more artsy things?

[00:03:50] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I would not say I'm fully back in, in the way that I would like to be, but that's fine. I've had the time to explore a lot of writing and editing and found a community of creative writing people, which is great. So we meet virtually once a week and read each other what we're working on and give feedback, which has been wonderful, highly recommend creative community as a side note. So yeah, I, as you said, I have been working on a novel. I, I am editing it. I think this is my third draft right now. I've got some feedback recently from some readers, so I'm editing it. And the goal is to get it sent to some agents and see what the possibilities are there in the next couple of months.

[00:04:44] So that'll be, that'll be an adventure for sure. In addition to that, I am starting to gather ideas for another writing project, which would be my own and other people's stories about being in the professional dance world and the good, the bad and the ugly of that. But focusing on the good hopefully. And so, yeah, writing, lots of writing. As far as dance goes, that's my other main thing. And I am starting to do some auditions and have a performance with you coming up, which I'm super excited about. And yeah, I that's pretty much it for now. I will see if any other opportunities arise, but I am trying to go with the flow.

[00:05:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and by going with the flow, obviously you are also very involved in lots of things. So that seems like quite a bit to keep you busy, not to mention, you know, you're a wife and mother and, you know, details. Well, congratulations on finishing or working on draft three of the novel. I mean, first of all, that's a huge undertaking to finish, let alone to get to this next point. So congratulations on that. And obviously I'm wishing you the best in your publishing journey and I'm sure our listeners are as well. And once that happens, you'll have to be on again and talk all about your book.

[00:06:15] Ashley Taylor: I would be glad to do that.

[00:06:17] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. And then so you mentioned getting back into various forms of art. And then I'm also curious because when we talked last time, you were essentially a brand new mom. And now you-- I mean, I guess you'd maybe consider yourself still kind of a brand new mom, I don't know-- but...

[00:06:44] Ashley Taylor: It changes every day pretty much, a little bit.

[00:06:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I'm curious how that has impacted your either expression of art or I mean, obviously ability to do art changes a little bit I'm sure. Or a lot, but I'm just curious if it, if you feel that also being a mom or having a little one has, has impacted just the way that you express yourself through art.

[00:07:13] Ashley Taylor: Hmm. That's a great question. I think, I think I have two answers to that. So the first thing is now that I'm a mom, I obviously have additional demands on my time and energy. So that's, it can be a difficult thing, but it's also a good thing in the sense that I am a lot pickier now about what artistic endeavors I spend time on. So early on in any artistic person's career or foray into artistic things, just kind of taking whatever opportunities come your way, because you want to get out there and get recognized and build experience. And I've done that. And I've spent a lot of time doing that in the past. And I-- it's not that I have every experience I'd ever want under my belt and you know, I'm an expert now-- certainly not, but I think I am a little less willing to just kind of do whatever at this point. I'm interested in spending time on projects that I find really meaningful, which means I weed things out very quickly if I see audition listings or whatever it may be, and I think that's good.

[00:08:25] I think, I think it's good to have that perspective now. Like I'm not, I'm not desperate enough to just do whatever. So that's good. And then as far as how it affects the expression of art, I do think it's not like I'm thinking about my son all the time while I'm making art, but I, I do think you, there's less pressure to throw your entire identity onto your art, because you know that you have other more important things waiting for you at home. Just gives you a different perspective and you realize you are more than, you're more than being a mother. You're also more than being an artist. You are all of those things at once. And you get to use the wholeness of that. You bring the wholeness of that into whatever you're doing at the moment, if that makes sense.

[00:09:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it absolutely does make sense. And I think that's really an amazing perspective to have, because it is so easy to get caught up in, you know, I'm, I'm a dancer. I've always been a dancer. I, you know, struggled with that myself quite a bit last year with COVID and not dancing for a year. I mean, not performing for a year and feeling like I've always identified myself, you know. When people meet me and I tell them that I'm a dancer. They're like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." You know, it's just part of my DNA. And, and so there were many times last year I sort of had these like identity crisis moments of, "Well, who am I without this?" And, you know, and what, what do I need for my soul to, to feel like I can still identify as a dancer? Yeah. So I definitely relate to that, but I love the perspective that you have of sort of there's, there's more to you. Like you have, you have a myriad of sides to you and they're, they're important and they're all valuable, I guess. So, yeah, like that.

[00:10:30] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. And I think we, we do ourselves a disservice by identifying as only one thing, honestly. Because we're all so much more than that.

[00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. So earlier you had alluded to the fact that you're writing more about dance and people's experiences and things like that. And I know recently you wrote a really intriguing blog post that I kind of wanted to dive into a little bit. It was a manifesto of sorts, if that's fair, about some trends that you've been noticing in, I suppose, the dance world in particular, but in general in the arts world. And I'm curious if you don't mind sharing what you wrote about and sort of your thought process behind all that?

[00:11:19] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I think the idea for this stemmed from, you know, I haven't performed in a while either, and, but I have seen over the past year or two, I've seen a few companies' virtual performances. And even that prompted me to think back to performances I've been involved in in the past. And I mean, I'll just be blunt. I'm pretty blunt in the blog post. There are times when I'm watching dance and I'm a dancer and I am actually bored. And I was trying to figure out why is that? Because it's not that it's not at all that the dancers aren't talented, they're very talented. And I came to realize it's because the choreography is rather mediocre. And I, you know, I have to couch this by saying everybody sees something different in a piece of art. And some people will find a piece of art meaningful that another person will not, right?. We all know it's, it's very subjective.

[00:12:24] However, what I think, what I think people get caught up in sometimes is, you know, somebody who is not familiar with dance, might watch a dance and think, "Wow, they're so talented." Or, "Wow, that looks so hard," or, "Wow, that was beautiful." And those are all good reactions, right? But as a dancer, myself, I might have similar reactions, but I also might ask, "Okay, well, what are you trying to say through this dance?" I'm like, "What's the point of this? Why are we doing this?" And what I kind of argue for in the, in the post is like, I, I'm not always sure that artists are actually asking that question, 'cause especially dancers, we love dancing. We love doing our art. We love it. So we do it because that's what we do and we've trained, we've spent years studying it and we think, well, we have to dance. That's what we worked all this time for. And so then we end up putting out these dances that might be fun to do as performers, they might be meaningful personally as performers, and the audience might be wowed by our talent.

[00:13:35] But did they actually get something meaningful out of it? Like, did you communicate through that dance? And I don't know. I guess I've been, I've been thinking lately that we really need to do a better job of being clear about what we're trying to say and what our intent is. So like, if the intent is, I just want to entertain people. So it's like, I don't know if the Radio City Rockettes say, or a fun movie. That's like a goofy chick flick. Okay. Entertainment. Great. No problem with that. But I think what we do is forget that there is a difference in some regard between entertainment, and art or between just like pure creative expression and art. So entertainment is, you know, you walk away and you're like, "Wow, I feel relaxed. I got out of my head for a minute." So it was great. They were talented. That was fun. Creative expression is like, any, anything that you do that's, that's creative, artistic, which is always great.

[00:14:32] And it's like, I baked some cookies. I painted a sunset. I, I made a dance, right? That's all great, but I, I feel that a primary-- what's the word-- a primary purpose of art is to communicate something, to express something. And it has to be something from which the viewer can glean meaning, and it doesn't have to be the exact meaning that the artist intended, but there should be something like you should react to a piece of art in my opinion. So I questioned the approach of artists who don't, who are not clear about what they're trying to communicate. And therefore are not even editing it appropriately in order to communicate that more. So an example that I use in the, in the post is just because you know how to write words down and you find some interesting words and then you put them on a page that does not mean that you've actually written a story, right?

[00:15:37] There's a lot that goes into writing a story with characters and plot and you know, development and all of this, right? So you can't just put words on a page and say, "I made art now. You know, enjoy it, pay for it." It's like, well, why, why would anybody do that? They could have written the page, the words on the page. So in, in dance, similarly, I feel like we pick some music and we're like, well, we have to dance because we have a show coming up and we gotta make money. So we'll make a dance about something random and put it up, put it on stage. And like here's talented dancers and here's like a couple of interesting moves. And we put it on stage and we call it art and then people don't come and we lament the fact that people just don't get it. It's like, well, was there anything there for them to get? Like, that's really my question. It's like, I don't think with the amount of content there is these days, like I just don't think it's realistic to assume that people will want to come watch you just because you're talented. Like there, the world is full of, the world is full of art and entertainment and all these things. So what makes yours different? Like, why are people gonna want to come and then come back? Are you giving them something transformative or something meaningful? Beyond just a spectacle. Does that make sense?

[00:16:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. No, I resonate with everything that you're saying so much. Good gravy. Yeah. I, yes, that definitely makes sense. And I think, you know, gosh, a lot of thoughts were forming in my head as you were talking about it, but working kind of backwards. One thing that I just thought about too, is that with COVID one of the lovely things to come out of it, I suppose, is the fact that the world opened up even more. And so art that may have only been accessible to a certain geographic region is now being live-streamed across the world, you know, or, or it's been recorded and made into a film that's then, you know, again, available literally anywhere. So I think you touched on a really good point. That's even more relevant today. And that is that there's a lot, there's a lot of art. So what makes you different?

[00:17:57] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think artists sometimes sort of have this sense of entitlement, of like, well, I have years of training and I spent money and time and energy to do this. So you should come watch me because of that. And it's like, that's not fair. I mean, I don't know. I think that's unrealistic and I would love, I would love it if people came just to watch us because we're talented, but it's unrealistic. And so we need to give them something more than that. Okay.

[00:18:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think sort of to that point, I mean, you would hold any other profession to that too, right? So just because a doctor has trained for years and years, super highly educated, if he constantly misdiagnosis and, you know, or treats people terribly, you're not coming back. There's plenty of doctors in the world, or, you know, if a plumber doesn't, you know, again, highly educated probably, you know, years of experience, but if they can't fix the problem, you don't go back.

[00:19:03] Ashley Taylor: Yeah.

[00:19:04] Lindsey Dinneen: So I think, you know, there's a lot of, I agree that, that there is some entitlement of sort of like, well, I have devoted my life to this, so then you should devote your life to me, you know, or whatever.

[00:19:18] Ashley Taylor: Yeah.

[00:19:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I think it's, it's actually something I've thought about before. You also have to be really careful as, as an artist. And as, let's say, you know, a show director, a company director, or whatever that you just recognize the fact that it will always matter more to you than to anyone else. So if you're going to be effective at what you do, you, like you said, you have to have a message that you can, that can be translated that that's not.

[00:19:48] Ashley Taylor: And I think in order to do that, you really have to, you have to have an editing eye, and/or you need outside perspectives telling you "I'm not getting it" before it goes out to a wider audience. And like, think of the book publishing industry, you know, your book goes through multiple rounds of edits and proofreads and suggestions before it ever hits the shelves of a bookstore, unless you're self publishing, but you still should go through those steps if you're self publishing. So there have been many outside eyes looking at this project and saying, "I'm not quite getting it" or like "that character needs something more," but with the average dance company, in my personal experience, that doesn't happen. So there's no accountability to make sure that what you're trying to say is coming across. And again, you don't always have to have a message, but, but there needs to be, you need to be clear about the fact that you don't have a message, then you can't try half heartedly to put some kind of message in there. And it just doesn't go anywhere. If that makes sense.

[00:20:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So I'm, I'm gathering you're not a fan of the whole Untitled Number One concept.

[00:21:03] Ashley Taylor: Oh my gosh.

[00:21:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh. Oh man. I think that should be banned in the art world, man. You have to come up with something.

[00:21:12] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, good grief. Yeah, that just seems, it seems lazy to me and I, yeah, again, I said this would be blunt.

[00:21:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, no, for sure. And, but I think that's, that's actually really interesting. I actually, I think you touched on something that's important and it is blunt, but I think that essentially part of what you're getting at is if you don't do this self editing or outside editing, it is lazy, right? Like you aren't doing your due diligence, you aren't kind of respecting the art form in a way.

[00:21:46] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Or you're assuming that the art form is so sacred or something that people will come anyway. I'm trying to think of an example that's not dance, but I don't know. I mean, even, you know, modern art, a lot of people don't get modern art, visual art. So I, and I feel like sometimes modern artists are like, "Well, I painted this, so you should look at it because it's painting and because I'm talented and I'm an artist and here it is. It's art." And, to which I would respond "Fine, but don't expect anybody to feel the same way about it than you do." I mean, I don't know. I think you have to communicate something, even if you're communicating everything is meaningless. Like, okay. That's, that's a message. But anyway.

[00:22:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. That's a choice. Yeah. It's interesting that you put it kind of like that, because that is something that-- yeah-- so our friends over at Kansas City Aerial Arts, apparently in their rehearsal process when they're actively choreographing and then sort of doing the edits like you're talking about, their sort of funny catchphrase is, "Well, that's a choice." And, and I love it because it's true. You, you have lots of choices along the process of creating art and editing art. And you know, you can make a choice that ends up needing to be changed in the future. I mean, that's, that's what happens a lot too. I mean, goodness, actually a real world example is in going back and looking at some of the choreography that I've previously done, or right now that I'm resetting on our dancers, is looking back and going, "What was that, you know, you know?"

[00:23:39] Ashley Taylor: We all do it.

[00:23:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, and perspective. And you go, "That doesn't make sense. Why would I have that person come on from that side of the..." You know, just it's so funny, but it is so important to go back and, and improve every time I think too.

[00:23:54] Ashley Taylor: I was going to go off on another little rant-- not a ranch-- just a tangent. Yeah, I, yeah. So back when you were saying, talking about choices, "Well, that's a choice," so I don't have a problem with choices and I, and again, I don't think every piece of art is meant to be loved necessarily. So if you're choosing to communicate everything is meaningless and it's this very dark piece of art about that. You know, I don't have a problem with that as long as everything you do has a reason behind it and it supports your message. And I think a lot of times people miss that part. So I feel like, I think that we should start with the why and then go to the how and the what, and, and I'll explain that in a second, but I think a lot of people start with the what. They're like, "Well, we have to make a ballet."

[00:24:42] And then they go into the why sort of, if they even get there, but more or less, it's just, well, we had to make a ballet. So here's a fun little piece of music. And, you know, we'll put people on stage versus, to say, to go back and say why first? Why am I even doing this? Why am I here today? What am I trying to say? And, and once you know that, then you can say, "Okay, now how best do I say that?" So, personal example really quick. I have started writing things before and I thought it would be in prose form. And like, as soon as I started, I thought, "You know what? This wants to be a poem." And I can't explain it other than that, it was like this wants to be poetry, not prose. And I think, you know, in that case, it worked out better to express the idea that way or, you know, I know we're a ballet company. I know we normally dance on pointe, but this piece really needs to be danced barefoot, and that will enhance the vision of what I'm trying to say. So again, it's like your why is informing your what ,or your how versus the other way around, if that makes sense.

[00:25:48] So again, it's just, it's just about like every, every choice you make artistically needs to have a reason behind it and you need to be evaluating how that fits into your broader vision for this piece. Everything should support it. I remember in college my professors saying every, every person on stage needs to have a reason to be there. And if they're doing the exact same thing as everybody else, you need to question why they're there. So again, just having a reason. I'll stop there.

[00:26:18] Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, that's great advice. I love that. Actually I remember in choreography classes in college, them talking about if you're going to use the prop, you have to use the prep. You can't just have a random bench on stage that you don't interact with except for the beginning, or maybe the end. Like there don't do that. Or, you know, 'cause again, and what I've been trying to actually communicate to my choreography students is intentionality is everything, right? So you have everything has to have intentionality because I agree with you once you start being like, "Oh, whatever," you run into all the issues that emerged from that of, okay, but so there's no thought put into that. And you, I think you do need to constantly be asking yourself and or what you're editing, "well, why?" Like, as a, as an artist, you should be able to answer that very clearly.

[00:27:16] Ashley Taylor: Right. And if the answer is, " well, I just wanted to have them dance on a chair or, well, I just needed to use four couples instead of one." It's like, that's not a really good answer, frankly. So basically what you're saying is you had to adjust or water down the art in order to accommodate some limitation. And like, there are times to do that, but if you don't have to then, for heaven's sake, don't like, anyway, that's my thoughts. Or like, or people will say, "well, the music I want to use is 12 minutes. So this is going to be a 12 minute piece." And it's like three minutes in you've said everything you needed to say. I get it. And now I have to sit here and watch the repetition for another nine minutes. And like, I'm bored out of my mind. It's like, again, not that the dancers aren't good, but I don't need to, I didn't need to see that for 12 minutes. So cut the music, you know, make your, make your art or make your artistic choices work for the art.

[00:28:17] Lindsey Dinneen: What a brilliant little way to sum that up.

[00:28:21] Ashley Taylor: Thanks.

[00:28:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yup. I like that. So I am curious when, okay, so we've talked about, you know, obviously you need to be communicating something, you need to be doing it well, which means a lot of editing and evaluation and re-editing again or whatever, but how do you feel about someone who's like, especially in the dance world, somebody who might produce a piece and their whole thing is, " I just want to make this as abstract as possible." Do you still feel that they need to communicate that that is the intention behind it? Or do you just not care for that style?

[00:29:07] Ashley Taylor: I-- this is my personal preference-- if you're going to do that and say this has no story, this has no message, it's just movement on stage, personally, if I'm going to watch a piece that has no meaning, I want it to be still moving. And what I mean by that is, I want the music to be interesting. I don't want some soundscape, you know? You know what I mean? It's like the sort of tuneless music during massage. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I don't want that because that's, that doesn't do anything for me. And then, and then, so I want some interesting music and I want the movement to respond to the music or enhance it and I want it to be memorable movement. So if some, so that if a piece is so beautiful or so dynamic or so in your face, whatever it is that I stopped caring if there's a meaning behind it, I think you've still made art because you've, you've managed to say, to use a metaphor, the earlier metaphor-- you've managed to make really amazing sentences, just beautiful sentences with beautiful words. And I don't care what you're saying, if that makes sense, but so, but that's a challenge. Like that's really challenging to make a dance so interesting that like everybody's just mesmerized, right?

[00:30:37] So, and what I, so what I feel often happens is people will say, "Well, I'm going to make this abstract dance and then it's like nothing. Not only is it not communicating, but it's not interesting or unique or dynamic enough to, to move somebody." Like I could probably count on one hand the number of abstract, totally abstract dances. I've seen that I didn't care that there was no meeting. So, and like, I'm not even sure that I could make one. So like it's a challenge, but that's kind of how I would respond to that. Like if you're going to make that choice, fine. But then the art has to be like really different or just really moving. I keep using that word "moving."

[00:31:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Dynamic moving. Yeah. I agree. I actually think it's probably a harder artistic challenge to go that route well than it is to be communicating a specific message or story and, and that kind of touches back into what we were talking about with intentionality of, I absolutely agree. So I always say that I love tap dancing because you can't do a sad tap dance. And, and that's, that's the thing about tap is it just would be so absurd and ridiculous. Like you wouldn't be communicating well, if you tried to do that, I suppose trying to do a comedically tragic piece, right? But you know, which I think that could be fun. But my point is that, you know, if, if my goal is to communicate happy, then, you know, tap is a good choice. If my goal is to communicate sadness and loneliness, probably tap's not the best choice. So what would best communicate that? So I, I agree with you. I really liked the idea of starting with the why, and then working backwards. It's like Event Planning 101, right? You know, you, what's the, what's the date of the event and what are you trying to do with that event? Why are you hiring you and then you work back, right?

[00:32:38] Ashley Taylor: How do you want people to feel when they walk away from this event?

[00:32:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What do you want them to have gained or learned or, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Right. Very cool. Well the manifesto is very well written and really worth the time to read as are Ashley's other musings. Do you mind sharing a link to your blog?

[00:33:01] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I'm at ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com. And that's Ashley with a Y, Rebecca with two C's, ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com. And if anybody is interested, on the contact page on my blog, I also have links to my YouTube channel, which is for dancing and also my Facebook page, which is for basically all the arts that I do.

[00:33:29] Lindsey Dinneen: All of the things.

[00:33:30] Ashley Taylor: All the things. Yes.

[00:33:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Awesome. I love it. Yeah, cool. Well, thank you for sharing about that, that particular post and kind of your, your musings and your feelings about, about, you know, an artist process and, and I really, I, you know, like you said, it's blunt, but I think it is a good gut check for any time that you do sort of want to just make a quick decision rather than a intentional decision or, you know, so I do think there's a lot of value to that. So thank you for kind of also bringing that back to awareness. I think especially maybe during COVID there were many of us who were like, I just need to create something, but you know, and that there's, there can be a lot of value in that and there can be a lot of value in doing so for you, but if you're going to be doing it for an audience of some kind, then, you know, let's, let's put that intentionality in it. Yeah. I really liked that. Exactly. All right. Well, I have three questions that I would love to ask you if you don't mind answering them.

[00:34:45] Ashley Taylor: All right.

[00:34:46] Lindsey Dinneen: So, first of all, what change would you like to see in the world of creating art or displaying art? Or making it available to people. So it essentially, what's, what's one big change you'd like to see in the art world?

[00:35:03] Ashley Taylor: Well, I think I've spent most of our time talking about it. But actually I, so I have a different answer which is more about the artists themselves in a way. So I don't know about other forms of art so much, but in the ones that I'm involved in, I feel like the message that we get as we get more serious about pursuing them is there's kind of one right way to pursue a career in this field, or, you know, even a serious hobby or whatever. So, you know, if you're a dancer, you kind of get the impression-- it's like, well, if you don't dance in a company or you're not appearing in commercial music videos or whatever it may be, then you're not, you haven't really made it, right? And I think so, you know, this is something I've been wrestling with a lot over the past few years because I don't have a regular dancing gig at the moment.

[00:36:00] And I feel like that message is harmful because it kind of makes you feel like you've failed if you either can't do that or don't want to do. And not wanting to go that route is totally valid. So how can we find more creative ways to make the art that we that we're passionate about, which may not be that traditional career route, right? So what I would like to see change is more people feeling the freedom if they don't see what they're looking for, the opportunity they're looking for, go make it right. I mean, create what isn't there yet. And give opportunities to other people who might feel the same way as you do about the career path that you've chosen or are up to not to choose.

[00:36:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen to that. Yeah, no good answer. But I really, obviously, I personally resonate with that because, you know, I had gotten to a point in my career where the opportunities to be apart of a full-time company here locally, we're just not the right fit anymore. And so that's exactly what I did. I, I didn't see something that could continue to work well, so I created a company. And thankfully there were enough people who were like, "Yes, we agree. We, we like this. Let's go that route." And we, we don't dance all the time. We, we do, you know, two big shows a year and then little gigs here and there throughout. But yeah. And I think that's, I think that's great.

[00:37:38] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, and it's, it's great because you don't, you know, there isn't one definition of what a dance company is or there shouldn't be so just because yours doesn't look like someone else's doesn't mean it's not a valid way to make art. Maybe might be an even a better atmosphere for making art. So why not try it, you know?

[00:37:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I, yes, exactly. Well, and I, I try to especially tell my students this. But I just think in general, so true what you said. I think that there are many avenues to a dream and if you can remain open to it, to them, to the other options, then you're going to be a lot happier and a lot more fulfilled, you know, in the long run, because there are a lot of ways to do it. Yeah.

[00:38:34] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. And you might even be more impactful. I mean, you never know.

[00:38:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, absolutely. Yes. Well, great answer. And then my second question is, is there something art related that stands out to you as something that you would love to do that is completely outside of your wheelhouse and maybe you've so far felt intimidated to try it and maybe that kind of held you back from trying it? So essentially, is there something that you artistically would like to venture into, but maybe haven't for whatever reason?

[00:39:10] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, there are many things. I mean, if I had my way, I would be good at everything, but I'm not. So I feel like the primary one is I would love to play the violin. I'm not really that musical. I mean, I am as a dancer, but not in the sense of playing an instrument. And I've, I have tried with, with disastrous results to play a few notes on other friend's stringed instruments before, so I would need some training, but yeah, but I would, I would love to try that, that instrument. And I think that'd be really fun. I, so that's very outside of my wheelhouse. The other one that comes to mind is musical theater which is more related to dancing and what I have experienced doing, but it's, it also feels very intimidating to be that well-rounded and sort of that showy in a way, but it sounds like a lot of fun. It always looks like they're having fun. So I'd love to try that too.

[00:40:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I totally relate to the musical theater thing. I just love watching it so much that I always thought it'd be really fun, but I am so intimidated by the idea of having to be a triple threat and like, yeah, well, maybe we should audition for something together at some point, just, you know, at least for the experience of it.

[00:40:31] Ashley Taylor: What? Abject failure?

[00:40:34] Lindsey Dinneen: We can pick each other off the floor. It'll be fine. That'll be fine. Awesome. And then my final question is, at the end of your life, what's the one art-related experience you would want to experience again for the last time?

[00:40:52] Ashley Taylor: So this is such a hard question because there are so many. So my answer is kind of funny because there's a, there's a piece of music that I have choreographed to. And I think it's probably the most beautiful piece I've ever heard, although that's hard to say, but it just moves me every time I hear it. And so I started telling people, I want this played at my funeral, which sounds like super morbid, and people would always sort of laugh awkwardly and be like, "Okay." Well, I think what I'm trying to get at with that statement is it's, it's so transcendent to me that that's kind of how I want to go on like thinking of, I'm thinking of a higher plane, I suppose, and something bigger than me and like kind of what lies ahead of death or what lies beyond death. So anyway, that's my little manifesto about it, but the piece of music is "Nearer My God to Thee," by The Piano Guys. So it's an arrangement of a hymn done on cello, multiple cellos, harmonizing with each other, and it is gorgeous, highly recommend listening to it.

[00:42:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That is a gorgeous, gorgeous piece of music. I, I agree with you. It's, it's amazing. There are, I mean, there's a lot of beautiful music out in the world, but there are certain ones that stand out as just every time I hear them, I'm like transported, or you said transcended, are you feeling like that? But yeah, that's yeah, you know, in fact it's really interesting. There was, there was somebody recently who was suggesting to do-- so, so I think there's probably a lot of us that find it difficult to just sit still and meditate. You know, come back to your breath, come back to your breath or whatever, you know, it's, it's hard to do that.

[00:42:47] But one suggestion that I heard recently was to put on a piece of music like that. And it's, that's just that you just listen to it and you don't do anything else. You close your eyes, you know, let that experience sort of envelop you and that's what you kind of not like necessarily meditate on, but the idea of like clearing your head and not being distracted by other things and things like that. And yeah, I did it once and it was really amazing because it's just, you know, you get sort of distracted if you're alone, even if you love the piece of music, if you're not like solely focused on that, it's easy to sort of let it not wash over you, right?

[00:43:29] Ashley Taylor: Oh yeah. But to bring your full focus to it. Yeah, I can, yeah, I can attest to that as meditative.

[00:43:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, indeed. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Ashley, this has been amazing as I fully expected. So thank you so much for being here. And I know we have the information for your website and that's probably a good way for people to connect with you or to at least follow your work.

[00:44:03] Ashley Taylor: And I have an email on there too, so I'm always happy to chat about artistic things if that's desired.

[00:44:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Perfect. Well, again, I really appreciate you. Thank you for sharing your heart and thank you for being blunt, and, and for challenging us to, to be our best and, and do our best. I think that's really important and I am very excited to follow the path of this novel and can't wait to purchase it when it's available for purchase.

[00:44:39] Ashley Taylor: And you'll be the first to know.

[00:44:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. All right. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:44:57] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:45:07] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 070 - Rachel Moore

In this week's episode, I welcome Rachel Moore! Rachel is a licensed marriage and family therapist, specializing in psycotherapy for the creative community of writers, artists, and musicians. As a prolific artist herself--having trained in piano, voice, improv, writing, acting, photography, and more--Rachel brings a unique perspective to her therapy practice in a way that authentically connects with artists. Her episode is full of great stories and sage advice. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is one of Rachel's photos!)

 

Get in touch with Rachel Moore: https://www.rachelmoorecounseling.com/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 70 - Rachel Moore

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Rachel Moore. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist based in San Diego and she works primarily with creative people and artists, which is most of us. So I'm so, so excited that you're here, Rachel, and so excited to chat with you. Thank you for being here too.

[00:02:38] Rachel Moore: Thanks so much, Lindsey, I'm really excited about it too. I can't wait to just chat with you about fun, artsy things.

[00:02:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? It's my favorite. All right. Yeah. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit, maybe about your background, kind of what got you interested in art and then of course, a little bit about what you're up to these days.

[00:03:00] Rachel Moore: You bet. Gosh. Yeah. So actually my first intro into the creative world was through music. And so when I was seven, I started taking piano lessons, really liked it, did not like practicing, but that's another thing. And did piano from seven to 14, started playing a saxophone and in, in middle school and then went into high school and continued with that and jazz band and stuff. And then also started playing auxiliary percussion in marching band and met some really great friends there. So lots and lots and lots of music, instrumental music. And meanwhile, I forgot this other track this whole time. I was always a writer. Pretty much been writing since I was like five and I made my first little book or whatever. So writing and music, sort of the more performative arts, have always been something I've been interested in and good at.

[00:03:53] I not a great drawer. I tried my best, but this art isn't quite what I do with it. So, you know slap something together. But yeah, for me, music and writing and I actually, my first career was as a newspaper copy editor. So when I was in college, I got a degree in creative writing focused mainly on poetry. And I think it's kind of cool actually that I then went on to a 14 year career in newspapers where I would do editing. I would do design of the news pages. And I also importantly, would write headlines, which required the skills of finding the best words and also looking at line breaks, right? And if you're writing a headline. So that was going on. And then in the meantime, I, I finally went into singing when I was like 30. I lived in LA, I went to this great community college program. They had an applied music program. I was still working and also doing this program where I got private lessons, singing lessons for the first time. And really it was able to kind of develop my voice and learn a lot of technique that was just super helpful. And so that's been really fun.

[00:04:57] And so that's kind of all of the basis of the, the fun, creative stuff I like to do. Then when I was about 35, 36, I decided to become a therapist, went back to school, got my master's degree. All that had to do 3000 hours of supervised internship before I could get licensed. And meanwhile, thinking to myself like, well, who am I going? Who are my clients going to be? You know, what, what am I going to focus on? Who am I going to serve? When actually it was kind of right in front of me the whole time, which is people like me, people who were into art. And I can talk more about kind of what that's like from my perspective as a therapist and why I think that's important, but that's, that's kind of the, the quick and dirty version of my life. There you go.

[00:05:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Oh my goodness. I love it. So many questions based off of that. I love it, but, but let's, yeah, I would love to hear more about what you just talked about with your practice and working with creatives and things like that. I would love to hear more about that whole thing and how that became your focus as opposed to, I mean, therapists are needed all the time. So I'm just curious how that kind of became your, your niche.

[00:06:07] Rachel Moore: Sure. Yeah. I actually had a particular therapy experience with my own therapist when I was trying to explain to her that I went to a friend's house and I sat down at her digital piano. And, you know, I live in San Diego. It's kind of hard to like haul pianos around. I don't really have a lot of access to pianos. With that piano, the piano was my first instrument and it really means a lot to me. And so explaining to my therapist, how I sat down with this digital piano. And I had no idea that they, they've improved them so much now that they really do feel a lot like a piano when you sit at it. And I felt like I was playing a piano and, and what that meant to me, you know, how it felt in my body and how it felt emotionally and, and all this stuff. And my therapist, like, it's, you know, she didn't do anything wrong. There's nothing wrong with her, but she was just kinda like, oh, okay. Like she just didn't get it. You know?

[00:06:59] I thought, wow, wouldn't it be cool to just off the bat, be able to have that connection with my clients where I understand, generally speaking-- you know, it's different for everybody, but I understand that for them, art may be like a life or death type thing. Art may be the reason that they are alive and, and the most important thing in their life. I just thought it would be cool to be that type of therapist who could serve people like that. And, you know, the most practical thought there is that it just saves a lot of time. You know, I'm like, okay. Yeah, I get it. Great. You know, I don't have to, they don't have to explain it to me on a deeper level. I think it's just cool to be able to be a person who gets it on some level and when it comes to being a creative.

[00:07:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I can even just hearing you tell that story, I can definitely relate to, you know, it, it's totally fine when you, when you're talking to people who don't have the same experiences and, you know, and being able to share like, well, this art means this to me because, and you can sort of explain it, but until you have experienced it yourself, it's just not the same. So I can totally see that. So, and I'm curious too, do you find, or have you found that-- I'm trying to figure out how to word this exactly-- that I guess, like I've said, I, I'm a firm believer in therapy, but I think that I'm just curious, how has it been to attract creatives to your practice? Is it, is it helpful because you're also an artist and that's sort of, again, how they've connected with you? Because I still feel like there's a little bit of stigma, even in the art world of like, "oh, you know, I can't, I can't do that because you know that that's not for me," I guess.

[00:08:46] Rachel Moore: Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think that, you know, when it comes to, you know, by the time people are finding me, they know they want to go to therapy, I guess, really, you know? And so it's like, well, who, who do I want to see? I mean, I've had, you know, prospective clients say to me, oh, I saw immediately, for example, that you work with writers and I'm a writer. So I want to work with you. Like, because you just-- I'm shocked actually that I don't see more people working with people in the arts. I mean, maybe they are, and I just don't know where to find them or I'm not looking in the right places. I don't know. But like, I think it's really, and it's, you know, you talk about the stigma, even as I say that out loud, I'm like, am I saying like, artists need more help? It's, it's not so much even that it's just that I think that again, like, and I wish I had better ways to explain it too, but there's something about, you know, somebody who again has that, has that experience with art really gets on a deep level.

[00:09:46] I mean, even, I was just thinking also in a practical ways, like, I know what it's like to have stage fright. Like literally I have it all the time because I'm performing a lot or I used to, you know, before the pandemic and, and yeah, there, there's, there's a connection there that I think is, can be really important and really vital in the relationship with my clients. And I will say that it's been, you know, there've been studies showing that the relationship between the therapist and the client is actually the healing part of therapy, which I think is pretty cool, like, or the most healing part. There's other things that are important too, but the relationship and the rapport is the most important part.

[00:10:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I can personally relate to that. I absolutely agree. And I think, you having that experience like you, like you were saying, even just the stage fright element. It's huge. So being able to also affirm the way that somebody is feeling, you know, and, and acknowledge the fact just also, you know, how much hard work goes into it. And I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding about the art, about artists. And I joke about it a lot because people will say to me, "oh, you know, you have such a glamorous job." I'm a professional dancer and I'm like, "well, ninety of the time, not glamorous at all, you know?"

[00:10:59] Rachel Moore: Yup. Most of the time, like I was just thinking about it today. I don't, I don't know if I mentioned to you before, but I'm actually been doing an "improv for therapists" class online. I've been participating in that as it as a an improv and it's been so fun, but today we did our dress rehearsal for our show and it reminded me how, you know, oh, I'm like, oh yeah --most of the time in a production, you're just sitting around like waiting. Right. So true. Preparing something. I know I'm just like, okay, all right. This week, not really glamorous. No.

[00:11:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It's all those long days in the theater where you're just like, oh my gosh, how is it midnight? And we're not done. But I think it's just nice to have somebody to be able to talk to, somebody who, who totally gets it, like on a fundamental level. You've been there. You've done that. I love that. I think that's super cool.

[00:11:49] Rachel Moore: Well, that's great. Cause that's what I'm going for. Yeah.

[00:11:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I just love that. So, you know, you had mentioned starting to sing, you know, a little bit late, well having voice lessons, I'm sure you were singing here your whole life, but having voice lessons and really pursuing it as an adult. And I'm super interested in that. Was that kind of a leap of faith? And I asked partly because like is always been this like thing in the back of my mind, "oh, someday I'll go take voice lessons," but I haven't because I'm like, "oh my gosh. That's so nerve wracking." Tell me about your experience.

[00:12:22] Rachel Moore: Okay. Yeah. Well, a friend of mine at the newspaper I was working at told me that he was in this program and how fun it was and, and he's also the person who introduced me to yoga. So I knew that he's like, he's got some good stuff going on. So I was like, "okay, I'll check it out." And the first time I ever performed in my group class, my hands were shaking so hard. I was up on the little stage in the classroom and I could not stop them, just shaking, shaking, shaking. And I'm like, okay, I guess that's what we're doing here. I'm happy to say that it got better, but yeah, it is, it can be scary. I think that the coolest part of that experience was that I learned a lot of technique that I had no idea about and actually made singing easier and made it easier for me to perform in a way where I felt confident. And, and, and even made it easier like on my body. Cause you know, when you're singing, just like when you're dancing, your body is the instrument. So to find a technique that, you know, I know how to sing really loud without hurting my voice, stuff like that, you know, was really cool.

[00:13:22] And I will say I had a really interesting experience when I was kind of wrapping up my, my time with that. And I will admit to you-- to admit, I know there's an interesting word. My therapist brain just caught that. I stopped pursuing it because I didn't want to do it as a career. And my, my teacher at the time was encouraging me to continue and I didn't want to have the life of a singer, whatever I imagined that would be. And I have never gotten paid for singing, and I don't want to get paid for singing. It's too close to me as a human. I don't know how to explain it, but I had this experience where I was working on an aria from "Samson and Delilah" and the mezzo soprano. And I was, I was working on this aria for, for like a few months you know, really, really working really hard, like you said, because that's what we do as artists. We work really hard and finally sang it for my teacher and I, she was on the piano accompanying me. And I'm just getting chills thinking about it right now. Cause we got to the end of the aria. I got to the end and she looked at me and she said, "you could sing that on any stage in the world." And I looked at her and said and said, "I know."

[00:14:40] And you know, what's so funny about that. I was, I was done. I was good. I didn't have to-- I was like, "okay, I've, I've done it. I've reached my potential and now go try something else." It was really cool.

[00:14:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Surreal! What a moment! And I just, you know, and I actually think that is so important too, because I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't, who would discount being an artist on some level, because they don't make money off of it, or they-- that's not for other people, it's for themselves. And that doesn't discount anything. I mean, it's, it's okay. Like if that's not what you want to pursue, then that's fine. You know, so even having that perspective too. Yeah, I think there's a lot of discreditation that happens with...

[00:15:27] Rachel Moore: I think you're right. Like, there's that word? And I, I don't know that I pronounce it right. But dilettante, I think is the word, like, you know, it's sort of a derogatory word saying like, oh, you're just a person who dabbles in things. And you know, I've tried to really embrace that. And I'm like, yeah, I do, because I, I have one life and I want to do a lot of stuff. I want to do a lot of different stuff. I want to do a lot of different art now. And I mean, I've had two different careers, you know, so I don't know. I mean, I, that's not to say on the other hand too, I really do admire people who dedicate their lives to one form of art and, and perfect it in, you know, in the ways that they do. And that's what they want to do. That's great too. I, you know, I think you're right. That it's like, it's different for everybody. And it doesn't, we don't have to discredit people just because they're not like an expert. That's a very, Hmm. It makes me wonder, you know, it's just kind of a very Western, so to speak, way of looking at things, you know, just like it's a little patriarchal, to be honest with you, just like, well, if you're going to do this, you better get paid for it. That type of thing.

[00:16:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. No, I agree. Yeah. And, and I do love that perspective and yeah. Well, thank you for sharing about that experience. It was actually really encouraging.

[00:16:33] Rachel Moore: Oh good.

[00:16:33] Lindsey Dinneen: I was like, maybe I could do it, and my hands could be shaking the whole time, but I still tried.

[00:16:39] Rachel Moore: Yes. Well, that's the thing. The more you do it, just like it's true, you know, the more you do it, the more confident you get, the less your body rebels and thinks you're going to die. So it'll be, it'll be fine. Yes.

[00:16:49] Lindsey Dinneen: It's so funny too, because it depends on the performance that for myself, even when I go out into stage and I've been doing this for years, I'm a very confident performer. I love it, but I'll go out on stage for that first like opening thing. And I'm like, what? My legs are jelly now. Like...

[00:17:07] Rachel Moore: Yeah. That adrenaline always gets you, right? Yeah. The adrenaline rush right at the beginning. Right. Like, okay. Then we settle in. Yeah.

[00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup. Oh man. Oh, that's fantastic. Okay. And you kind of briefly mentioned this improv project that you're a part of. So first of all, I love the concept --improv for therapists or therapists improving or whatever. That's super fun, but yeah, tell me a little bit about, oh my gosh. How did you get into improv?

[00:17:35] Rachel Moore: Well, I actually got into improv in the real world. I don't know how to, we're talking about it these days, but before the pandemic-- oh, I actually got into it through music because I had always been wanting to try improv. I thought it'd probably be okay at it and have fun with it. But it always kind of felt really intimate. And so the first improv class I took in person was musical improv. And it's great. You just go on stage and you make up songs and you sing and it's awesome. I don't know how awesome it might feel for you at this point. But for me it was like, right, if you told me to get up and dance, I don't know how I do-- but the singing, I was like, yeah, I can do this. And it was so fascinating to me because I can tell when I'm doing musical improv or like regular talking improv, I can honestly like literally feel the different parts of my brain being activated.

[00:18:22] And for some reason, for me, it's a lot easier to make up stuff as I'm singing than to make up stuff as I'm talking. It must be just literally different parts of the brain. So anyway, that's how I got into it was through musical improv. And then I decided to take like the whole series of improv classes locally here. We had a a show a December 2019. And that was just like the most fun thing ever. And yeah, and then later I think on a Facebook ad or something, I, I found this improv for therapists group. It's actually run by some folks out of Second City in Chicago. One of the cool things about the pandemic is now we can do things on Zoom and have a lot more access that way. And so it's a zoom class and it's been really fun.

[00:19:04] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds like so much fun. I love that you're doing that. Yeah. Well, and you know, your background has been so diverse and I just love the fact that you are not stopping. Like you said, you have one life, but you're, you're choosing to dabble in a lot of different things, I think. Yeah. So much value to that. You're, you're constantly learning and growing and, and just, I know it's funny to say this as an outsider, but I just keep thinking like, "oh man, kudos to you for just continuing to like push yourself." Cause it's easy to get comfortable, you know?

[00:19:35] Rachel Moore: No, I don't know what that feels like. I don't know. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Like, yeah. I, I can't imagine what it would be like to stop creating and performing. And I mean, I don't know about you. Like, it's just where, Hmm. How do I put this? Like, this is where I feel like life is. That's where I find that, you know, life, spirit or whatever you want to call it. There's probably so many words for it, but you know, to me, that's what life is about. I remember watching this documentary on a plane randomly, but I'm watching this documentary about-- oh my gosh. Her name is escaping me. " Take a Little Piece of My Heart." That singer. What's her name?

[00:20:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh no. Oh man. You're asking the wrong person. Everyone knows that song. And I'm like, probably! I have no idea.

[00:20:22] Rachel Moore: I'm refraining, I'm refraining from breaking out. It's a song, but I will not do that right now. There was this documentary about her and she was a very troubled person. And one of those people who died at 27, like in the sixties, you know, there's like a lot of people who died of overdoses and things like that. I can't remember exactly how she died and I can't remember her name. Anyway, I'm watching it. The important part is I'm watching this documentary and they said, yeah, the, the trouble, the trouble she had in her life was that when she was on stage, she thought that was, you know, the real life in the real world. And I remember sitting there, oh, it's not. I was like, oh no. I didn't realize that stage was not like the actual real world and everything else was something else in between times you're onstage. But anyway, that's kind of how I see life sometimes.

[00:21:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I love it. When you, when you said that line, something about, yeah, life, life is not unsafe, but I'm like, but it is.

[00:21:14] Rachel Moore: I felt so strange. Cause they were like, you know, for her, for this person, this analysis was saying like, "oh, well she got so many accolades and people loving her" and I could see how, you know, it might be a problem in life if you're not understanding the difference between like people liking your art, as opposed to people responding to you as a human. I mean, you know, that's something that can get a little weird. I think sometimes for us creative folks too, having that healthy separation. But, but yeah, but just that general idea of life, real life is onstage. I'm like, "ah, I don't think I, I don't think that's true for me." Nope.

[00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Nope. I would agree with you. And I definitely resonate too with, with what you were talking about of like, yeah. I don't, I, I can't relate to the idea of not continuing to learn and grow and try new things. Yeah. Literally somebody the other day in social media was talking about being bored. And I was like, man, I have no concept of bored. Like I don't remember being bored since I was maybe five. You know, I just there's so much to explore. There's so much to learn. How can you be bored?

[00:22:19] Rachel Moore: I know. Sometimes I think it's so funny, and it's funny to me because I don't think it's true and I don't think it'll happen, but my husband will say like, "what if we run out of things to talk about?" and I'm like, "what are you talking about? Like, do you know how many things there are in the world that we could talk about?"

[00:22:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. I love that. Yeah. Well, I know a few specific stories had kind of come to mind when you were contemplating how art has impacted you and I'd love if you wouldn't mind sharing some of those?

[00:22:50] Rachel Moore: You bet. Yeah. I mean, I did have on my list singing my art, that aria, for my teachers and other performance things, which maybe we'll have time for, maybe not. But I think there were a couple of things that like, yeah, I really wanted to, to talk about, and I guess talking about visual art, like I remember the first time I got to go to a real art museum. So I grew up in Idaho and when I was growing up, like especially then, you know, now there's more stuff there to do, but when I was growing up, one of the bummer things was, you know, nobody would come to our town to perform. Like no big names or anything like that. That wasn't even a thing. And like the closest city to us was Salt Lake City, which is five hours away.

[00:23:30] So it's like, I didn't have access to a lot of, you know, First-class high quality art or whatever. That was the bummer part. The good part was that, that meant that kind of like we're talking about like, my friends, my siblings, like we would make stuff ourselves. You know, we were, I would, they just encouraged me to like, make my own little videos and shows and stuff. So that was cool. The first time that I went to a real art museum, I had a layover in Chicago and I had time to hang out with a friend. That was in 1995. And we went to the Art Institute and I saw paintings who I love and I, and I saw like, like all these people and that's actually reminded me of another memory that I hadn't written down, but I thought about. So I told you I studied poetry in school and creative writing and stuff. A few years after this, I went to London and I went to Westminster Abbey and, you know, saw the people buried there.

[00:24:22] And then, you know, Geoffrey Chaucer, I think is buried there, but then they also have memorials to like Shakespeare and Keats and Shelley. And I was just in tears, like realizing that these people actually existed. You know, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, it's real. You know, the, they did live, you know, these, these things that they created, like are from actual people. And here's the proof, I don't know. It just hit me. Yeah. Like I said, it was just crying and happy. And so anyway, that's just a couple of little stories yet.

[00:24:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that. I've also been to Westminster Abbey and it is a very surreal experience when you're, you're reading these names and you go, oh, my word, like it is, it's like a transformative experience. You're like, there's hundreds of, thousands of years of history, like here, right here. It's the most crazy experience. I relate to that. Yeah. Those stories are powerful. And you know, I'm also curious and obviously you don't have to be specific at all, but I'm wondering if you've experienced-- I'm sure you have some really like interesting breakthrough moments from some of your clients that you've worked with, where it was sort of like, "oh wow. I needed that today." You know?

[00:25:41] Rachel Moore: Yeah. You know, I think I actually, this kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier about, you know, maybe being a dabbler in different things or, you know, or do you have to be an expert or blah, blah, blah. I have had with a couple of clients who have, have come in and they've told me, like, I need to do this particular, you know, I need to reach this particular artistic pinnacle. And if I don't, it means I'm not an artist. And I remember, you know, early on when I say things to them, like, you know, if self-expression is something that's important to you. If, if that's, you know, what you are really going for here? Which, which it sounds like it is as opposed to sort of the ego idea, right, of being a, a whatever artist. I said, you know what, there's lots and lots of different ways that you can do that. That means that look nothing like that. You know, maybe, I don't know. I'm just going to throw this out there. Like, you know, being a symphony musician for, you know, for example, some that you may even like better. And when I, when I say that early on to some of my clients, they just look at me like, so pitifully, like I have no idea.

[00:26:43] And then eventually, sometimes there'll be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe I can do my own thing and create my own artistic life and do the things that I want to do that really speak to me that maybe other people may look at and say like, oh, that's not real art or, oh, that's, you know, I don't see that as legitimate." It's like, you know, "Hey, in my opinion, I'm like, who cares about them? This is not about them. This is about you and your life and what again, what you want to do with your one life." Right? So yeah, that's always an interesting experience. I just love it. You know, with, I know what they're thinking. They're like, "oh, poor Rachel. She just has no idea what it's really like," which that may be also be true. I wouldn't say that's not true, but yeah, it's, it's always a good discussion at least.

[00:27:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I'm so glad that you bring that into your practice because I think there's-- that something that I've talked about a lot with my students, because I also teach is, you know, sometimes they'll come to me and yeah, "I have this starry-eyed vision of like, oh, I just want to dance with X company or whatever." And you know, a lot of times I talk about how there are a lot of avenues to your dreams, to reaching your dreams.

[00:27:57] Rachel Moore: Oh, I like how you say that. Like I'm gonna borrow that.

[00:28:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Cause there's not one straight path. And even if you would like there to be, it just doesn't exist. So I think that having the idea in your mind of, there are lots of ways to accomplish your dreams if you're open to different opportunities, because, you know, if you're so stuck on one avenue, you're going to miss all the different spikes out that that are all of these other options too. So I love that you do that because I think that's just so important. I mean, I'm maybe not exactly exhibit A, but I have to say that, like, you know, I had the privilege of getting to dance for other companies, but it wasn't really until I branched out and started my own, that I finally was fulfilled. And that's a very risky thing to do in the dance world, just because it's like starting something from scratch, and nobody knows who I am and why should they come to see my shows and all that? And it's a lot of hard work, but oh my gosh, I've never felt more fulfilled, you know? And, and so sometimes just being open to like a different avenue, you know.

[00:29:08] Rachel Moore: That's being creative, right? You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the spirit of the soul of creativity right there. Right. It's like, oh, maybe I don't have to do it like everybody else does. Or like people say I have to.

[00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Exactly. And I just love that. Yeah. So I'm curious, I'm sure you have a lot of, well, I'm totally extrapolating so let me start over. I imagine that you have people that come to you who are maybe more in the beginning stages of their careers. And, and what advice would you have for somebody who's either kind of trying to make this happen? And it's like super nervous or whatever, or maybe they're at a point, maybe they're at a turning point in their career or they're ready to do something else. I mean, what kind of advice do you have for people who are kind of on that path.

[00:30:03] Rachel Moore: Hm. Wow. You know, I'm not sure. And this, this actually might kind of open up another can of worms, which is to talk about kind of the type of therapy that I do. Because it's true that I work with therapists. A lot of people think I'm an art therapist by the way, which I'm not that's a whole nother thing, but I actually do a type of therapy called EMDR, which is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, which is such a mouthful. But honestly what I, what I would actually do is we would start a treatment plan on that issue. So I would ask like, "okay, what's the issue you want to work with, work on? Tell me more about it." They would explain to me like, like you're saying, you know, like maybe like, "I'm not sure what I want to do. Do I want to keep pursuing this? I've got this and this issue, you know, about it." And then we would look at maybe some memories, some past history that might be affecting how they feel right now. We would talk about some present triggers that are affecting them. And then we would talk about how they want to deal with it in the future.

[00:31:00] So I've just kind of given you like a little brief summary of what EMDR is like, but the idea of EMDR-- we may have traumas in the past that are affecting us now. And what happens with trauma is that it just doesn't get processed in our brain. So, I mean, I have some early artistic traumas. One of them, you know, caused me to not write a song for like 30 years after it happened. You know, I wrote a song when I was eight, got this great response from my family and then wrote another song and they kind of ignored it and said they didn't like it as much. And that caused me to not write again for like 25, 30 years. That for example, would be a good memory for me to try to reprocess. And I can tell you about what that reprocessing is like, if you want to know, but that's a whole nother thing.

[00:31:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah!

[00:31:45] Rachel Moore: But. Well, yeah, well, okay. So here's the idea is that they think that they're not sure why EMDR works, but they think that perhaps when we're sleeping and our eyes are moving back and forth in REM sleep, that that is actually the brain processing memories, you know? So like, oh, let's see. I had a sandwich for lunch today. I think I can put that long-term storage. We won't need to grab that anytime soon, you know, that type. But when there's trauma, like, oh, I had a sandwich for lunch today and like it had a cockroach in it or something, if there was a lot of trauma around that, what can happen is that that memory will just kind of be floating around and not really have a place to land and not be processed. And then later you might find you get triggered and it's almost like you're back in that old memory and you can see, hear, feel, see the things as if it's happening right now. That's kind of the way that trauma works in our minds and our bodies.

[00:32:35] And so we literally will, you know, sort of bring it, the memory and then literally do eye movements. And so I've been doing this online, but you could do it in the office too, you know, kind of with different ways to have people move their eyes back and forth to reprocess that memory. And then I'll ask them, "okay, what do you notice?" They'll tell me. I say, "okay, go with that." So we reprocess, we bring down-- that's the desensitization or part, we bring down the distress of that memory so that they can just think of it like any other memory. You don't forget it, but you're not totally freaked out about it anymore. And then the next part is like, they may have some negative connotations that come with that memory.

[00:33:12] So like, you know, "I'm not good enough or I'm unsafe," things like that. We work with that, reprocess that, do the eye movements with like a more true statement, like "I'm safe now," or, you know, "I'm, I am a good person." And then the last part, which you may like this part too, being a dancer, the last part is that we pay attention to the body. So I'll ask, "okay. When you think of this memory and maybe the words, I'm a good person, where do you feel in your body?" They'll tell me, "well, I feel some tightness in my throat or my chest," something like that. And then we'll do eye movements on that. Reprocess that until the body is clear. And then we move on to the next memory.

[00:33:49] So once we're done with the memories, again, you know, we talk about present situations and then we talk about how you want to deal with it in the future. So in this case, dealing with it in the future, it might be like, "okay, how do you want to approach your next your next audition," for example, and "let's talk about the positive belief you want to have about yourself in that moment." And then we work through that. So that's kind of what it's like, that's what I do.

[00:34:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, and that's the perfect segue because I know that you are fully booked. You are obviously a very effective therapist, which is fantastic. But I know that you are now kind of in the process of creating sort of an online opportunity. So I would love if you would tell us more about that.

[00:34:33] Rachel Moore: Sure. Sure. Thanks for asking. Yeah. I have done for like 10 or 12 years groups based on the book, "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron. We just go through like each chapter. There's 12 chapters, so it would take 12 weeks and go through each chapter. Up to this point, all the groups have been in person. Now, you know, after the pandemic or during, or wherever we are when we're recording this, I feel ready to do a program or workshop, 12 week workshop based on "The Artist's Way" online, feel comfortable enough in that venue now to do that. So I'm super excited about it and it's always, it's honestly, like one of my very favorite things to do in life is to run these.

[00:35:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. And where could we maybe find out about that or, or connect with you so that when it is live, we could jump on board with that?

[00:35:19] Rachel Moore: Sure. You can go to my website at rachelmoorecounseling.com. And there is the, you'll find a link to "The Artist's Way" group. You'll also find a button where you could set up a time to chat with me and I'll talk with anybody, you know, about it. We'll do a free 15 minute chat about whatever I can help you with. So if you've got questions about "The Artist's Way" group, if you need to find a therapist in California to work with, I love helping people with referrals because it can be really hard to find a therapist for various reasons. So I'm super happy to help out.

[00:35:49] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Thank you. And then I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:35:56] Rachel Moore: Ah, yeah. Sounds great.

[00:35:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:36:04] Rachel Moore: Oh, that's a great question. Wow. The first thing that comes into my mind for what it's worth is, is, is actually my friend's definition of music. And she says that in order for something to be music, it has to have a rhythm. And I, yeah, I kind of feel like I could apply that to almost all art forms, right? Like I like to do a lot of photography too, you know, just, just like in, you know, amateur photography, whatever. But I like to find like, okay, what's in the front of this photo, what's in the back? What are the patterns of this flower that I'm taking a picture of? Right? Like what's the rhythm of this. There's something in there and I could probably write or talk more about this at some point, but there's something in there about the rhythm of music or visual art or dance or writing, especially I definitely, I, when I was a newspaper copy editor, I always have to check myself because I tended to like the headlines that sounded the best rather than maybe were the best written. So I'm like, okay, wait, it has to be accurate too, not just sound great. So yeah, something about that, that the rhythm and the sound. Yeah. That's the best I can do for an answer to that question.

[00:37:14] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:37:21] Rachel Moore: I know it's kind of a, that's been kind of a weird idea lately --the truth, but I think to shine a light on things that maybe for various reasons, society or people have said, you know, we can't look at this to shine a light in a way that is accessible. I think that if we just like, you know, shove things in people's faces like, eh, that's not really doing the job of art in my opinion. To invite people to see things differently, that's what I think the role of an artist.

[00:37:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:38:22] Rachel Moore: Right. So I used to be a journalist. You might be able to guess where I would fall on this. I love learning about things. So for me personally, yeah, I think I'd have to go with inclusive because then I thought about this, of course just like every, I guess creative person does, you know, do we need to know the story, but like, I always want to know the story. I always want to know more about where it came from, what the context was, what it means. And I love how that can always change too. When we find out different things or we have different perspectives as a culture, like, yeah, I don't, I don't think that art ever exists in a vacuum nor do I think it should. So I'd have to land on inclusive for that, that answer.

[00:39:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Very good. That makes sense. Yes. I guess I would have probably been surprised having talked to you if you went the other way, but yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, oh my goodness. Rachel, you are just so amazing and inspiring and I just really just want to commend the work that you do and not just for yourself. And you know, like I know even a lot of your art has been a little bit, maybe more for yourself, but you're just constantly-- I just love that you're kind of still learning and growing and you're still performing and you're doing all these cool things, but then you also have this practice and that is seriously helps other people. And obviously, you know, as an artist, I'm, I'm partial. So thank you for focusing on artists. I think that's just a gap in the market and I appreciate that. So thank you so much for what you bring to the world. I, I just want to say that I know you're making a difference and it's so obvious just even talking to you. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for being here.

[00:40:07] Rachel Moore: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Lindsey, for saying that. I really, really appreciate it. And it means a lot to me that, that you can see the value of having a therapist for artists, because I really think there is a lot of value in that. And thank you for doing this podcast, it's so much fun and I'm so glad that you're doing it and, and bringing artsy things into the world. It's great. Love it.

[00:40:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Yes. Oh yeah. It's, it's my happy place. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. Please definitely check out Rachel's website and if you're so inclined, like she said, she offers these awesome 15 minute calls that you can take advantage of and really, you know, get some advice or learn more about this upcoming group that she's going to be hosting and jump on board with that too. Obviously, like I said, Rachel brings a lot of value and inspiration to the world. So definitely want to hop on with that. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:41:07] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:41:16] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 069 - Natsune Oki

In this week's episode, I welcome Natsune Oki! Hailing from Japan, Natsune is an author, speaker, and entreprenuer, who has reimagined herself and her career multiple times. Her unique perspective about creativity and art allow her to inspire others with a positive mindset coupled with business acumen. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Natsune and the book she wrote!)

 

Get in touch with Natsune Oki: https://www.lifeupeducationtv.com/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 69 - Natsune Oki

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of artfully told I'm your host Lindsay. And I am so excited to have as my guest today, Natsune Oki, who is an author, speaker and entrepreneur. And she actually is coming to us from Tokyo, which is awesome. I'm super excited to chat with you about art. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:36] Natsune Oki: Hi, Lindsay, thank you so much for having me today. I'm also very excited as well.

[00:02:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I know you have a super interesting background. I mean, obviously what you're up to nowadays is amazing. So of course I'd love to hear maybe how you got started and, and how it led to what you're doing now if you don't mind sharing.

[00:02:59] Natsune Oki: Yes. My name is Natsune Oki. I, I was born and raised in Japan and so well, not Tokyo, but Japan and I decided to study abroad when I was 18. And then I went to the United States and I finished my business degree. Well, I would say I didn't finish my business degree, but basically I did like halfway on my college and I decided to work like getting work experience in America. And at that time, like my English was broken. I didn't even have a degree. I didn't have enough money, like nothing, but I just decided to just put myself out there, right? And then see what I go to get. And then very fortunately this time turned out to be one of the best time that I had in the States where I, I was able to work in like startup, entrepreneur- heavy like community. Because back then I lived in Seattle and Seattle was such like a hippie community for tech startups.

[00:03:59] So during that time I was able to network with lots of entrepreneurs and investors who were working around technology and then who were really being in the possibility of with technology and expanding that possibility further. And I was really intrigued by it. I was really inspired by the vision that they had and that story kind of delays to later what I'm doing today, but I'm going to come back to it later. And then after that time kind of ended, I decided to go back to school to get my economics degree. And then I finished economic study and once again without like no plan, I didn't even have money or job lined up or anything, but I just decided to move to Florida and you know, without having anything really like no connection, no place to live, like it was really tough, but I just wanted something different.

[00:04:57] So I moved and, yeah, some like really hard things happen because it was just really random, right? But I did it anyway and I was able to get like a consulting job. And then I worked as like a consultant, like digital marketer, marketer kind of role, the business agency. And then after that, I, after a while, I decided to come back to Japan for a little bit, because, there was opportunity with Olympics that was supposed to happen last year. So I came back and then I was still working with the same company, but then I always had this like tremendous interest in entrepreneurship. And I knew that I was going to have that like entrepreneurship experience at some point. And I think it was going to be actually, I was going to, I knew that I was going to be entrepreneur for like a very long time. I don't say I just needed to like time, like when that was going to happen. And that was the perfect timing.

[00:05:56] So I decided to go like individually, like I just stopped the contract with the previous company and basically I'm doing what I was doing at my previous company. I do it like individually now. And that's how Foreign Connect to basically started. And I explain Foreign Connect as a business service that helps Japanese companies to expand their business launch and expand their businesses in America, and also Latin America because I have some connections in Florida. And Florida is like full of like, like Spanish speaking people. But basically that's what I do with Foreign Connect. And then I also have another very, very exciting media channel, which is the platform that I reached out to you from. It's called the LifeUp Education TV. And coming back to the earlier story, the reason I started that I started LifeUp Education TV is because I was really inspired by all of these tech entrepreneurs, their ambition toward like expanding the possibility of humanity.

[00:07:02] And I mean, of course it's a business, so they do have this like money mentality and business mindset behind it. But I was more intrigued about it how they were so visionary and excited about the possibility of a technology, how that can make impacting people's lives more than like making money necessarily. That's why, like I made this tonight, the shift from studying business to economics, because economics, you have more space for broader thing than just money, but you know, it has consideration for economics. It has constellation for education, political science, and more things that has to do with people element of the society. So I, I made that size shift. And then, so today how that relates to like LifeUp Education TV. So like I said, I was really fascinated by how people were so excited about the future.

[00:07:57] And when I think about future, I think of it as possibility and creativity, something that we haven't seen yet, right? And then in the same token, I guess in the opposite side of it is a past. There's a past. What is past? The past is what we already know what we already know as, for example, data, knowledge, or the history we already recorded it. And with having that, to being the opposite side of the spectrum, I believe that future is existing already inside of us. We tend to look at future as like external thing that we were searching for, right? Like the humanity is searching for the future, but I think vice versa. Like we already have the potential, we already contain the potential for the future. We just need to dig into it. And we just need to find the possibility and the future inside of us from our creativity we already have and what prevents us to do. So it's sometimes it's data and knowledge and experiences and the limits, so to speak. And how, because, you know, the limits tells us something is impossible, right?

[00:09:16] Because, and then by the data we've already done it. It's impossible. Like that's the forest that we are against. So that's why, like, that is why I'm so excited about the future and really talking about pushing the limit. And when I talk about pushing the limit, I think like great connection between creativity has to do with like creativity and like art, our ability with like creating something from nothing, right? And I call that as a form of art. So this is why, like my channel LifeUp Education TV heavily promotes the idea that the potential that put the full potential of humanity really lays on our art capability. And that's what we like to talk about in this show is how can we unlock it? How can we stimulate it? How can we take the most advantage?

[00:10:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That sounds amazing. Well, first of all, oh my goodness. So much of your story is so incredibly inspiring. I, I'm so impressed with you for coming, you know, all this way. And then starting kind of from scratch a couple of times just trying to, yeah, kind of discover what fits you, where you're meant to be kind of thing. And working with all these different people, I mean, kudos to you. That, that could not have been easy on any level. So I'm just really impressed with you for, for just being so brave and bold and going for your, your dreams and your goals.

[00:10:50] Natsune Oki: Thank you so much. That is a very kind thing to say. Thank you so much.

[00:10:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course, of course.

[00:10:55] Natsune Oki: Yeah. I think one thing I learned that definitely helps me to go through this, you know, bold journey is because at the core I understand, like that's probably why the top of these and why I'm so like out there is because I know that fundamentally my success doesn't mean anything to anyone but for me, and the same token, like my failure doesn't mean anything to anyone as much as it does to me, you know? And when I start believing in that thought, when I started subscribing in the thought, like all the sudden I'm not so afraid of what people think about me. And I have the courage to try everything that just makes me happy and other than makes me look like I'm successful. And I figured everything out, you know?

[00:11:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that perspective too, because that gives you so much more freedom to explore and try things and not, yeah, not worry about the outward facing appearance of anything. It's, it's for you. So I love that outlook. Oh my goodness. So yeah, so obviously, you know, you've gotten to do you-- well, you've gotten to because you've created these, these amazing opportunities for yourself-- but you've gotten to do some pretty amazing things. So I liked what you were talking about in that you feel like creativity is the future. I mean, that's what makes you excited is there's so much potential for the future when we allow ourselves to be creative. So I wonder if you don't mind elaborating a little bit about that and talking about how your platform allows people to, to explore their creativity.

[00:12:41] Natsune Oki: And I think just like, just like arts themselves, what's so interesting about arts is that there's no one answer, you know, like arts are, is like so subjective. It's so different to one person to another, like what's valuable, it's so different. Like so absolute different people. And then I think it doesn't have to have only one fit it, like one size-fit-all kind of answer. But to me, what works for me or what, what speaks to me now, they're the loudest. And also the gift that I have is definitely and like the mindset, managing the mindset and also helping others to do that. So with my channel, we focus a lot on psychology. We focus a lot on like managing the mindset part, which really has to do a lot with emotion, which is once again, it's very subjective matter and we don't have to have like one size fits all answer to what is happiness, for example, right?

[00:13:51] So we can discover different perspectives. And then we can encourage people to also explore different concepts with us. And then I'm hoping like that can lead it to some sort of realization that can like fertilize your creativity in your way. And that's something that I can't decide for the audience, you know? So I'm just creating everything of like what I think is helpful for people to have a good mindset, to have a good psychology for them to feel quote unquote motivated or I guess willing, willing to pursue whatever they want to pursue. And then the rest is up to them because I can't teach them how they should grow, but it's up to them, you know? So, yeah, that would be my answer is my way of contributing to that conversation is talking about mindset, which is something that speaks to me. The nowadays for me, like that's how I learn in terms of even creativity, but also that's the gift that I have for other people, like how I can contribute to others. So that's what I would say.

[00:15:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I love that because I think you're absolutely right. The mindset. I mean, you can, in theory, be as creative as you wanted to, but if you don't have the right mindset, it's just so much harder to, to, to really be successful in the long term. And, and like you mentioned, you mean success kind of looks different to different people as it should, but, but even just to maintain a low level of creativity, yeah, having, having your mind in a good, healthy place is definitely a big, big component of that. So, yeah. I love that.

[00:15:41] Natsune Oki: I, I think when I look at, I guess, creativity or like creating something from nothing. That's something that I'm good at. And that's something as an industry wise that I have been involved with, with my business posts also with my experiences, like a lot of those businesses have been startups, like starting from scratch is my spirituality. And when it comes to that, I think there's no much difference between like creating art, to like creating a new business for instance, or creating a new venture. And creating something from nothing is very exciting, but at the same time, it takes tremendous amount of like a mental management, like a mental focus. Because things happen that disappoint you. And I'm not talking about like creating one piece of art, but for instance, like if you're artist, maybe you are in the stump of like, you can't come up with some creative idea, you're feeling down, like you're even doubting yourself as an artist. What can you do? I think it really comes down to managing your mind, to bring yourself to like never give up during those times. And that's kind of how I see, see it when it comes to creating something from nothing. Because it's not going to be like easy all the time, you know, like whatever you're working on, whether that's art, whether that's like starting a business from nothing, or really like just creating a family, like starting from nothing, I'm talking about, I think it takes mental strengths and that's, that's something that I'm good at talking about. So that's how I contribute.

[00:17:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. I love that a lot. And I know that you have also written a book and I would love to hear about the book. Yeah. And also just sort of your journey to create that, because I know that that's a really big undertaking and, and another kind of step in the creative direction. So yeah, I'd love to hear about that.

[00:17:49] Natsune Oki: Yeah. So it started from me being a business. Mine is how the book started. Like I never really thought like one day I'm going to be an author. Like I didn't plan for it. I just thought what made sense was like, I, I little bit earlier, I said, you know, I have the humility to not assume how I can impact other people's life because that's like up to them. And then, you know, even if I have my mission and I have my hope or the romance of how my channels should have speak to others, at the end of the day, I can't control what people think of it, or I can't control what people think of my art or I can't, right? So the same way I, I have the humility to understand that the judger is my audience. And when I have that mindset behind how I create LifeUp Education TV, the practicality understanding of how I should my marketing, it just made sense for me that I have a many, as many outlets as I can because some people learn the different contents through video, but some people also like to learn it from through readings.

[00:19:10] Some people also like to learn it from audio listening, like how we are doing today. So in terms of like, why I may come up with the idea of big was mostly because of the strategy, but I'll also, I wanted to write it because I shared my method that I had, that I talked about in my book to my friends. And yeah ,they implemented it and they really liked it. And I never really talk about the method, like the method part that I talk about in my book seems to be very, very interesting to many readers that read my book, but that, that wasn't like something that I pushed with my marketing, for example, like that, wasn't the main point that I wanted to push. It just happened and a lot of people liked it, but basically that really the main, main point that I want to with a book is really the message I'm pushing with LifeUp Education TV to be with, just to tell people like it, it can be scary, but you know, as long as you manage your mind, you can literally achieve anything, right? I mean, it sounds kind of not allowed to talk right here, but I talk about it in a perspective of like how one person, how someone can create mental transformation in three different phases in my book.

[00:20:27] So in this book, I talk about phases, as I mentioned. How can you make that mental transformation? The first phase I talk about. Commitment. The first phase is all about building up emotion. So in this space you don't need anything logical, like, because when you think everything logical, you will never try anything. So in this phase, I really want you to focus on finding what it is that gives you the burning desire. Like something that really excites you. And then I give you a different questions to consider and then really understand what it is. And then one full meter that I talk about in this chapter is you have to have two things. One is inspiration, like something that you are so excited about once again, and then you also need to have desperation. What does that mean? That this desperation in essence, that you have to be sick of whatever you are right now. Like you have to have organized that frustration you have for the fact that you're not achieving something that you truly wanted to, and then you need to organize it and then you need for, for you to come to the commitment phase, you have to have inspiration that's exceeding that inspiration because if the inspiration is bigger than the inspiration, you don't feel like, like, if you don't believe that whatever you are dreaming of right now is possible to achieve, you're not going to try it, right? So that's the first phase I talk about. This is a very short description.

[00:22:04] And then in the second phase, I talk about perseverance and more specifically, I also talk about, I call it identity circle, but what it is is really talk of, talk of self-awareness. Like, what do you really want? Like we talked about what you want to achieve in a first chapter, but now let's face it with some logical thinking. Like let's, let's change our perspective. In the first phase, we inspire you to think of the leavers that you're getting from the dream, whatever you created. But in a second phase with the logical thinking, now I'm going to say to change the perspective and ask you, you're not really working toward the new world that you thought about in the first phase, but in reality, you're working for those journey. Like you're working for that you had to go through for you to get to wherever you are. So think about all the possible failures you're going to have. And can you have like going through that failure, like let's align who you are, what you want with like what you want to achieve. So we really dig deep into like, identity of like what you think you want and if who you are sort of going through different questions.

[00:23:24] And you also talk about how to manage our mind when we go through hardships, rejections, because things like that happen. And then finally, on the third phase, we speak about what is happiness and what is success? And because in the second we talked about the most important thing, which is let's need to find failure. So regardless of the hardships and rejections, you might go through like, here's how you think of them, right? So that I can keep track of like, you know, it doesn't matter. Like even if these things happen, like it doesn't matter, I'm going to do my thing and I can keep going. Like, that's, that's my goal of like how I want your mind to be. But because I want this whole journey to be like really thoughtful and reading like a deep journey that I guess I, I want people to think about what they want, and then what they want in their life in a very, very deep sense. In the third phase, we talk about the definition of success and happiness this time. Because we already done that for the failures.

[00:24:29] And actually this is what a lot of people miss and a lot of people, a lot of people by that, I mean like a lot of books also, we don't talk much about the definition of happiness and success, but in, in reality, this is very important topic that no one, like people often forget to talk about. And we just assume that this is something that, that's common among many people, and we don't really have. We don't really take the time to think about them in a customized manner to what feels right for us to each one of us, right? And it can be completely different answer to person to person. So in a third phase, we really talk about it and that basically summarize the whole bit.

[00:25:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I, I really love what your book addresses, because I think it's so important. I love the way that you were describing it. I definitely want to read it because, you know, just like you were talking about going through those three stages and they're each so important and how mindset is kind of woven through each and deciding what success is, deciding what happiness is for you. I think that's such a key component that a lot times is overlooked ' cause we're so eager to sort of define it by other people's standards. So yeah, I love, I love the way that you're going about all of that encouraging creative people to, to be creative and to, to be brave and to go for it. But, but that, you're also giving them that framework. And like you were talking about with the second section, you know, like you said, disappointments that are going to happen, failures are going to happen. So how do you deal with that. And I, I think that that is so great because it sounds so practical. That's very cool. Well, so I know, again, that sort of, that creativity has always been kind of a part of your life. Is there, are there particular art forms that you practice regularly now? I mean, what you're doing is an art form too. I mean, speaking, writing, but also, are there other things that you also like to do yourself?

[00:26:37] Natsune Oki: Yeah. Actually everything I do is kind of creative because even Foreign Connect, my services more marketing and it has a lot of art elements to it. And with that, I LifeUp Education TV, obviously, like you said, like it's a speaking and that's a form of art. I like to speak and recently I started doing this thing called NFT. So I decided to talk, I decided to build some media around it as well, as well as publishing some arts myself. And I also like in LifeUp EducationTV, really the purpose of it is I want to talk about culture, arts, marketing, business. So a little bit of business side, like practical, like a business insight, but I definitely heavily, heavily like interested in talking about culture and arts. And one of the thing actually I started doing is I am putting out BDOs that has nothing to do with business, actually, something that just feels fun for me.

[00:27:40] And I eventually want to turn this into like entertainment platform as well. So a little bit of business education for that matter. But also I want to have some sort of like art, like music elements to it. So now if you go to my website, for example, you do see different channels talking about different things, but one channel, I have a committee plus life and they're there. And in that channel I sing. And I just talk about life because life is not one dimensional, you know, like you, you have different, you can have different interests and that's what makes you more interesting than just having one dimension of things to talk about. So, you know, as much as I'd like to talk about NFT stuff, which is like my mindset and somewhat serious stuff, I also put out some fun contents in there as well.

[00:28:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. That is so fun. And that must be kind of a nice balance too, because obviously you're, you're super into the entrepreneurial world. So having kind of an outlet that's just much more, maybe a little light, more lighthearted and fun is, is wonderful. I love that.

[00:28:53] Natsune Oki: You know, the thing is like my, my, another intention here is like, I think it's actually super, super smart move too in terms of PR and marketing as well in terms of business. You don't want to beat it out of them, you know? Being relevant to the current society is very important to me. And I needed to take out a advantage of the fact that I'm woman and young, like I'm in the best position in terms of being relevant to the current society, you know? Yeah. I can't let that opportunity slide for the sake of my ego of like how I should have looked, because in the end, like market is what decides and just like Kardashians, like they understood, like people make fun of them and stuff like that, but like they understood, you know. So for me, it's kind of like what works in a business is more important than my ego. And I think so, given that being said, I think being relevant to the current society is essentially currency, but in a different form.

[00:30:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That makes complete sense to me. So yeah. So, well, you have an amazing story that kind of has led you to where you are, and obviously I'm sure there are so many more twists and turns, but I just, yeah, I'm so impressed with how brave you've been and bold you've been. And then, and, and then how you've just sort of, you know, dived headfirst into these, these adventures and these opportunities and, and really made them your own and then have now shared. Now you're sharing what you've been learning with others, and that's just really cool. So thank you for, you know, doing all of that, 'cause I know it makes a difference in people's lives. And I'm just curious, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who are gonna want to connect with you and read your book and things like that. Is there a way for us to do that?

[00:30:53] Natsune Oki: Yes. So my name is once again, it's Natsune Oki, and that is a nice setup because if you search Natsune Oki, you're going to pretty much find everything about me. And my media channel is called the LifeUp Education TV. And in that a website, lifeupeducationtv.com. You can find all my social media, which I'm active on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and my book as well in there. So, and then my book is called "The Game of Self-Domination." I want to start hosting this show, like a Q and A show and I, I have this Facebook group that people can join to ask me questions and I, I can ask literally, any, any question people want to ask for, I just want to have like a real, more real, like interaction, like one-on-one level interaction, because I feel like that can help people more like a real question then, you know, me coming up with topics. So that's something that I, I'm starting to do so if anyone is interested, you can definitely join up the LifeUp Tribe, which is the name of the group. And then ask me any question you have about mindset and business and marketing like anything.

[00:32:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's great. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sure that, yeah, that sounds great for me personally, but I'm sure that there are definitely some of our listeners who are going to be interested in all of that. So thank you for sharing. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:32:28] Natsune Oki: Yes. Yes. I mean, yeah, please.

[00:32:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:32:37] Natsune Oki: Yes. And I think I would have to go with, so we already talked about, but since I'm such like so heavy into what I do with it, I thought education may be the only thing that I can think of when I think about art is our possibility and our future.

[00:32:56] Lindsey Dinneen: I like it. That's, that's so unique, but I, and I just really like that answer. Okay. Second of all, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:33:09] Natsune Oki: I don't want to start sounding boring, but I really think that there's a key. Artists are the key player in terms of creating something new and creating a future of a future. Like it really like, you know, until now it's it was an engineer, but because now we've built some infrastructures for people to be more creative, possibility is unlimited, like with the artists combined with technology, like it's, it's going to be like crazy. Like it's going to be our future.

[00:33:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I love that. And then finally, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes, title, the inspiration, whatever, just to give a little bit more context, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will?

[00:34:16] Natsune Oki: Hmm. I think if I answer this, according to what I believe in business, I say exclusive because, you know, there's a one story that I share often, which I learned because I studied economics. There's this concept in economy that was created by the father of economics, Adam Smith. He talks about invisible hand, which is really to say like, economy is at the optimal state when there's no government intervention. And which means that the economy is the healthiest when there's a fully, truly free competition in the economy like that, that was his, one of the theory that he had. And I often talk about that, like, you know, in terms of mindset, I think accountability is such an important thing. Like we can come up with all the reasons of like, why you fail, why you like, why you are not feeding it, whatever, like, whatever it is like, but in the end of the day, like the result is the results. Like if you fail, it's your fault that you didn't catch that the failure was coming. Like I'm not necessarily stating it as a fact, but I'm stating it as like, that's how the mindset should it be, you know? And so how does this relate to your question is that I was just looking at it from the different context here, right? Like I, I looked at your question from the, what I believe in business context, but I think we can to decide how people see. Like it's a free competition and it's up to consumer. Like, I don't assume that my content is good for everyone, you know? And I can't tell you like, like my contents, you know? So that's kind of how I see it.

[00:36:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I like that. Well, and that's a really unique perspective that you bring and I, I appreciate that. I appreciate you coming at it from more of a business, like you said, economics background and talking about it that way, because I agree with you. That makes a lot of sense to me. It's just a different way of looking at it. So thank you for that. I really, really liked that answer. Well you, like I said, are just so incredibly inspiring. Your story is amazing. What you've been able to accomplish is fantastic. I'm super excited to check out some of your work myself. I'm sure our listeners will be as well. You're just, just such a inspiring person. So thank you so much for what you are bringing to the world and I know you are just very humble in your approach. You, you want to put it out there and you want to hopefully, you know, make an impact, but you're, I just am so impressed with the way that you do that and the way that you just let it speak for itself. So thank you so much for what you do. Thank you so much for being here today. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:37:26] Natsune Oki: Awesome. Thank you so much, Lindsey, for doing such an amazing job so also as a host, like thank you so much.

[00:37:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I appreciate that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:37:49] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:37:58] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 068 - Justin Alcala

In this week's episode, I welcome Justin Alcala! Justin is an author and tabletop gamer and his episode is packed with crazy, amazing stories, including about growing up in a house that was built on behalf of the South Side Mafia in Chicago with a tunnel to the house across the street. He shares about how his daughter has informed his work, along with his advice for aspiring artists. (Fun fact: the cover image is Justin's personal logo artwork!)

 

Get in touch with Justin Alcala: https://www.justinalcala.com

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 68 - Justin Alcala

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am excited to have as my guest today, Justin Alcala, who is an author, tabletop gamer, self-proclaimed nerd ninja from Chicago. And I am just so excited to hear exactly what that means, because I know there's a rich history I can already tell that goes into, to becoming who that person is. So thank you so much for being here, Justin. I appreciate you.

[00:02:46] Justin Alcala: Thank you. Thank you. You can add literary misfit too.

[00:02:50] Lindsey Dinneen: I like it. I like it. Fantastic.

[00:02:53] Justin Alcala: And dork.

[00:02:54] Lindsey Dinneen: But now, oh, I can't wait to hear all about all of it. So I will just love if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about, you know, your background, maybe how you got started into art in the first place, and then what's occupying your life now.

[00:03:10] Justin Alcala: Ooh. All right. We'll start off with a doozy. So I was, I'm a, I'm a novelist, short story writer. And I was sort of my background I was raised in the sootier part of the south side of Chicago. By no means that I have it bad, but, you know, observed some colorful events here and there that everyday people might not be witness to. But that plus I went to a little more stringent Catholic school and, and sort of union of the two taught me "Be quiet, comply. Don't be weird." And what I realized though is, you know, life is weird. And so those, you know, those curious thoughts, the innocently, spooky, funny, kinky ones, you know, that's really what makes a human who they are that's hard to ignore. So once I figured that out and I figured out that I wanted to get into writing during college I just sort of combined it all sort to start my writing career.

[00:04:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Okay. Yeah. And so having the experience of feeling like you had to conform and fit a certain mold, how did that inform what do you do now?

[00:04:15] Justin Alcala: Yeah, so long story. You know, my parents were blue collar artists. My mom was a painter, my dad, he did glassblowing metal work. He did all sorts of things, but, you know, to, to make ends meet. They, they both worked very hard. And I was in Catholic school and there were many rules. And, you know, so you have these interesting things where you're you're in the-- we'll call it industrial world-- growing up in, and long story short, after a while it started feeling wrong to always stay quiet. Always I was the little pipsqueak nerd by the way. And so opening my mouth either could get me beat up. It could get me in trouble with the nuns' ruler. Or just get me funny looks. So I stayed quiet for a long time, but then there's just one day where, when I was going to college believe it or not, I started off, I was going to be a police officer. And thank God I didn't go down that one because I probably couldn't fight, fight my way out of a wet paper bag.

[00:05:11] I had always been writing since I was as a kid, my poor buddies, John and Dave, and all of them. Johnny, I would write them comics and notice sort of graphic novels and other small pieces and forced them to read them. But one day I was in college. I was taking an English class and I had that Eureka moment where I'm like, I'm already always writing. I had been tabletop writing for a while as well, just you know, my friends playing Dungeons and Dragons, all those great stuff. And I realized that I loved it. And so I started indulging into it and kind of talking to professors, and as well I knew a couple people who knew editors for publishers and it kind of just sparked off from there. And you know, eventually you get some good encouragement, you get bad encouragement too, but you're getting good encouragement and people saying, "Hey, you know, you're really good at this." And you know, that was, holy smokes, 15-16 years ago. And now, poof, what do you know? You know, we have four novels out, about 30 publications and still going strong and it's just been, it's been fantastic.

[00:06:16] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Yeah. I know sometimes it can be hard too to finally let your voice be heard if you're not used to doing so, but kudos to you for getting to that place and, and, and, you know, recognizing that it, it's not only okay to be different, it's great to be different. I mean, people are unique and there are lots of different types of people who sort of end up liking the same things. Like, you know, I'm sure you met a whole group of people who were all tabletop gamers that just got along super well. And it's not like you by yourself anymore, you know, it's this group of people.

[00:06:54] Justin Alcala: You unionize, right?

[00:06:55] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I like it. I like it a lot. So, you know, as somebody who is not as familiar with that world, you had mentioned writing, tabletop writing, and I'm curious, because again, this is I, I'm not super familiar. So I'm just curious when you play these games, can you describe for those of us who don't know what it's like when you're playing them? So are you simultaneously writing it as you go?

[00:07:21] Justin Alcala: Oh yeah, I'm gonna warn you right here. This is about to get as nerdy as you can. This is going to sound painfully geeky, but let's, let's walk you through the process. So long story short you, and a couple of other people, you get together, you pick your game you want to play that's kind of your environment. That's your world. You know, you can think of fan fiction. It's, it's, it's what you want your protagonist to stay in. Your friends they go ahead. If you're going to be the storyteller. They pick their protagonist and they create them. And there's all sorts of rules that takes a couple of years of advanced math to figure out. But once you do all that, you are, you are their enabler. You tell their story, you move them through the story arc based off of this world that you've sort of created. And through rules of dice and stuff, you find out actually what the answers are. But what I found out was as I was going along, you know, everyone starts off pretty painful. That's the fun thing about the beginning is there are so many parallels with just writing a book, writing a graphic novel writing whatever, your novella, coincide completely with you just sitting around eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew with your nerdy friends while you play elves and wizards. So yeah, that's, that's in a nutshell and I promise it would be nerdy and holy smokes probably nerdier that I thought it would be.

[00:08:42] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. And I do appreciate it. It is something that's really interesting to me, but I haven't dabbled in it yet. So I'm, I'm always curious to know, okay, these art forms that I haven't learned about yet to like, just tell me all the details. I, I love the nerdy nitty gritty.

[00:08:58] Justin Alcala: You put your, you had to put your, your guard down in order to enjoy, but once you do, holy smokes, I've, I've had some of the most serious uptight people play these games and afterwards, "Why can't we do this again?" It's a lot of fun, I promise.

[00:09:14] Lindsey Dinneen: It sounds like, it sounds like a great blend of creativity and storytelling combined with the element of a certain level of chance, I guess, based on the dice and things like that. So you kind of have your story going, but then you also get the elements. I don't know, sounds like real life to me. You, you plan ahead. You have this idea for your protagonist and then life throws you a couple dice that you wouldn't have chosen.

[00:09:43] Justin Alcala: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then to add to that, to piggyback to that, and then you're doing it all with your buddies and friends. So it's a relaxed environment. It's a lot of fun. You get to sort of just play chalkboard with your own brain. It's a great, yeah.

[00:09:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and then, so I'm, I'm interested. Is it, how long do these games typically last?

[00:10:05] Justin Alcala: Oh, goodness. These days, so now that I have, now that I have children, I've had to taper it down a bit. So I you'll meet maybe once a week or so if all schedules workout and you'll do it for three or four hours long ago before my friends and I, the basement trolls, we had our responsibilities. You could do it all day, 13, 14 hours, show up to someone's house before lunch. Midnight, one in the morning, you're heading home and finally calling it quits for the day. So it all depends on your group, but they can go for a very long time and then they can go their campaigns themselves goes for years.

[00:10:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. That's amazing.

[00:10:48] Justin Alcala: I told you.

[00:10:49] Lindsey Dinneen: It's commitment for you. I mean, I used to think that one game of Monopoly was commitment, but no.

[00:10:56] Justin Alcala: Oh no. This is a whole 'nother league.

[00:10:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, man. That's fantastic. Okay. And so obviously that, you know, sparked this interest in and realization that like, "Oh, if I can do this here, then I can also, I can write my own books." So tell me about the process of, of maybe your very first book. 'Cause I would imagine, and you can tell me if I'm incorrect, but I would imagine that might've been the hardest one just because the whole process was newer to you. But tell me about that.

[00:11:26] Justin Alcala: The first hurdle is always the worst hurdle, right? And I think I was, what I was doing if I can jump back into the way back machine, I was already writing, but I just didn't have the courage to really take it seriously. And so, because, you know, writing something for yourself is fun, but I'm actually creating something and sending it out to the world. That takes a great amount of courage and bravery. And most people, you know, they know they never want to do that. They never want to press that send button. And I think all that gaming actually really did was show me here's some of the other tools for, you know, creating yourself a plot and also gave me the courage to say, it's not that big of a deal. Just try it, do it. But my first book consumed-- which is, I think it came out in 2011 or 2012, its first edition-- was something that I had been brewing on for a long time. I, I grew up in a interesting house on the south side. It was the, some people call it the haunted house. There was, I could go into a whole 'nother story about. There was tunnels from the prohibition under our house and the house across the street from us that connected, but that's a whole 'nother thing, but there was a, it was a kind of a creepy house. And I always liked ghost stories as well.

[00:12:37] And when we'd go to the libraries, I would always pick up The Goosebumps. I'd pick up the scary stories to tell in the dark. And so I had been sitting on those and then along with borrowing my mom's "Interview with the Vampire" book and "Dracula" books, I sort of had all these stored up ideas. And so finally when I had the bravery to create something it was a mismatch, a mishmash of pretty much all of writer's first books are, holy smokes, borrowed his hack. It was a mishmash of everything from Sherlock Holmes, Bram Stoker's" Dracula" and Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein." And it was all put together in this Victorian London mystery. And I put it together. And when I finally said, "Oh, I think this is great," I sent it out to the world. And then I got rejection and then yeah, I got two rejections, three, four or five. And the only thing that I think really helped me to get that first book published, which if anyone's listening and you're thinking about publishing a book, your first one is by far the hardest one. The only thing that kept me going was that, you know, I, I, I just knew that if you continue, someone's got to be drunk enough or high enough to put it somewhere, right? So eventually I, I did get that all mighty heavenly choir email from publishing, which since unfortunately his closed up, but said, "Hey, we love it. Let's work with it." And it, they assigned me some editors, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a tough process.

[00:14:02] You have to, have to, have to be ready to take very raw, very straightforward opinions and not be afraid. A lot of people can't do that. And I will, I will say early on, I really did struggle with that nowadays. I, I, I ask people to rip me apart. Publisher Parliament House, I was talking to the editors during a production meeting, and I said, "Please, whoever, whichever editor you signed to. I want it extra ripped apart." I needed it. I need this to be torn apart, but early on, it was very difficult, but you go through that process. It's a year or two process of getting it on the pages and making it fit, right? And then you get out and there's no more special feeling than that first book getting out. Nowadays, I look at that first edition. I think I have an old, you know, dog-eared version somewhere in my office and it is cringe worthy, but, but at the time it was, it was amazing. It was a miracle.

[00:15:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And that is, that is so cool, just that moment of holding it in your hands. I bet after all that hard work and the rejections and all the things, and then you just get to hold it and you're like.

[00:15:15] Justin Alcala: Oh my goodness. Please, please, please. There's no-- it doesn't have to be me, but if you have any anybody you follow that's a writer or whatnot, even the big, the biggest of big dogs, even the, you know, Andrew Smith's and Christopher Moore's, every, every purchase counts. Might just be 15 bucks works for you, but every purchase counts towards things and every review is, is a little bit of saying thank you and I love you to those people for the crazy amount of work that you sometimes have to put in the books and authors love doing it. Don't get me wrong, but it does. It's a nice pat on the back.

[00:15:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that probably goes for all art forms. Anytime that you have a chance. I'll just get on my soap box for a second here. But anytime you have a chance to show an artist, a little love, even it doesn't even like money is obviously very important. So we have all have bills to pay, but even if it's just like, "Hey, I, I see you. I see what you're doing. Good job." Those kinds of things matter so much. I don't know if you're the same way, Justin, but just those kind of little affirmations --it doesn't have to be anything huge, but it makes a big difference for sure.

[00:16:23] Justin Alcala: For sure. Right. And you know, I've, I've kind of to this day, I, I've, you can say grown thick skin to where I don't need the confirmations, but when I get-- I'm not going to lie-- it kind of gives a little, you know, Thumper from "Bambi" look, my eyes get big. And I think it's, yeah. You know, it does feel nice, but yeah, for sure.

[00:16:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I relate to that. I think especially early on in your career, the more encouragement you can get and constructive criticism, I mean, you have to have both, but the more that you can get feedback the better. But then I do agree that, you know, later on as you're an established professional, and you're like, "Well, I, I do kind of understand how to do this" then, but it is still nice every time. I'll just throw that out there. So. Yep. Absolutely. Well, okay. So we're just, we're going to have to, we're going to have to talk about those prohibition tunnels. I just, I can't let that.

[00:17:19] Justin Alcala: It's a itch that must be scratched, huh?

[00:17:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Tell me about this whole thing.

[00:17:26] Justin Alcala: Not a problem. So I grew up in a house where, you know, some spooky, interesting things happen. I, we, we could go on the debate of what it was if it was explainable or not. But the legend behind the house we had like an old school, you know, that guy in the corner, who's, you know, 70, 80, and he's seen it all in this town. You know, there's always a legend that there's tunnels under our house and he would tell us how you'd see gangsters back in the day go in there into our house and then come out the other house with bags. Or there's a golf course across the street from us as well that, that allegedly the tunnels went through too. And they'd see them coming out. But long story short, the rumor is that Al Capone's south side school squad pretty much, they, they financed those houses for the builders and the catch was that when we need to pretty much run booze, you just comply and you get the house for free, right? When you went into our basement, there was all, it's a creepiest, as creepy as it could be the set of a horror film, cobwebs and cement floors and rafters, but on the walls, it was all just solid and blank except for one little section where it was bricked up, and if you went into the house across the street, which a buddy of mine lived there, same exact thing facing each other and everything. If you went down there, you'd feel cold breezes.

[00:18:48] And we never wanted to open it up. So because obviously that would, you know, it could destroy the structure, but later on in life it was very strange. Later on in life though, you know, it was always myth and legend. I was working the corporate world and this manager came in out of nowhere and said, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I, I used to live on the south side of Chicago." Yeah, well, I lived on the south side. We were both working downtown at the moment and we started comparing notes, turns out his great uncle was the guy who helped build those tunnels in between. And he said that they were paid triple. And this was during a time when jobs were really at an all time low. So they had to take the job, but they were sworn to secrecy. And the only time he said anything was on his death bed, that there were tunnels under there. And I was like, "You've gotta be kidding me. I lived in that house!" You know, he was just trying to tell a fun story. And I was like, "No, no, no, that was my house. That was my house." So turns out to this day, it was true, but also a lot of schools, interesting things happen in between sounds and some weird sightings that we just can't explain. And we think it's maybe the builder of the house or the gangsters that are.

[00:20:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my goodness. That story is fantastic. I think I was just sitting here smiling, but with my mouth open the whole time of like, what?

[00:20:12] Justin Alcala: And obviously these have been, you know, helped me inspire some of my some of the horror stories that I've had in anthologies, because you don't grow up for 18 years in a house like that, not tell any of those stories in other ways.

[00:20:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Oh my goodness. That is wow. Well, that is a very unique like background to draw from. So, I mean, obviously it gave you lots of material if that's any.

[00:20:40] Justin Alcala: Oh yeah. So yeah. You know, and to this day, once again, I mean, these days I'm fearless about it, but you know, you can bring it up to some people and they look at you like, "Okay, this guy is not dealing with a full deck here," but it's a, it's true, weird things that happen in our house. But there were definitely some tunnels in between our houses that the south side mafia used during the prohibition to flip, to flip booze, and funny add on to that story: when I was moving out, my father passed away when I was 18 and I decided I wanted to go and do the, you know, the, the head on out and live my own life story. But my friend and I just out of curiosity said, "Dude, let's see if we could break a breakdown in that wall." We did. And there was another brick wall, clay bricks after that, but the installation there was crumpled up newspapers in between and sure enough, they were from the twenties. They were barely faded and you could barely read some of them, but yeah, they were dated from the 20th, et cetera. It was, it was pretty neat. We didn't go any further. We, we chickened out after that though.

[00:21:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word. That is amazing. And also I am so curious. Do you know if anything has ever come of those houses? Like, has anyone decided to be like, "Okay, this is historic. We're going to figure out what actually happened. Is there anything like that?"

[00:21:56] Justin Alcala: So regrettably it's quite the opposite. The house across the street, a lawyer bought it and turned it into a business where he just works out of his house. It was a beautiful house too, across the street and our house, unfortunately it had always had, even growing up, so some mild issues with, with it. And then we had a fire that is a whole 'nother story. I had to jump out of a window of my, in my underwear when I was 17 to survive. But after it was repaired from the fire, it was not repaired correctly and the entire walls and everything from the water damage to the firefighters, molded everything up. And I hear it is unfortunately in ruins now.

[00:22:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, sorry to hear.

[00:22:39] Justin Alcala: Yeah, I know. I know, but no, that's okay. But so I, you know what we should probably do is go in on it and buy it. And then finally go break out that basement and see if there's any money in there.

[00:22:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Huh? Right, right. Or anything. I'm just like, there could be so much. It's killing me a little bit. There could be so much historical, you know, anything there. It's just fantastic. What a story. Oh, my word.

[00:23:06] Justin Alcala: Yeah. When I was a kid, I was afraid and, you know, that I would tell stories about that. That was going to turn to a Goonies episode where there was skeletons and slides with spikes. And, but now, nowadays I'm thinking, "Ah, there's probably just old garbage in there in between. Who knows?"

[00:23:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, probably, but still that's the fun thing, I guess, about being an author is you can create your own ending to it and you don't have to go with what it actually is.

[00:23:32] Justin Alcala: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:23:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that is so fun. Well, I'm curious, I know you're a dad now and congrats on that and I'm.

[00:23:43] Justin Alcala: Thank you so much.

[00:23:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I'm curious how that has informed your work or has it changed? Obviously it's changed your time availability, but has it changed other elements about the way that you produce arts?

[00:23:57] Justin Alcala: Absolutely so, but in a good way. So as far as the schedule goes now, it just means I have to wake up super early. I wake up at 6:00 AM and try to get as much in before I hear the first "Oh, Daddy!"S from my daughter, Lily. But you do have to wake up a little bit earlier, but I think what it's also done is that children are fantastically innocent and they can say these amazingly prolific things to you that is just raw thoughts to them that gets you thinking again, it gets you questioning things, pieces that you might have thought back in the day were overused or just hack as far as stories and ideas. Your kids can really inspire you to do something with them, but it doesn't change your DNA as a writer whatsoever. I mean, I am working on a story right now that will be out 2022, "The Last Stop," which is pretty much a kid's horror book. Think of, you know, the things that probably growing up, you had The Goosebumps, and, and whatnot.

[00:24:52] But in my opinion, and you know, people have scoffed at me before, is like those books for me as a child really helped me out. They were great tools for me. Because if you deny a child, the, the chance to understand that there are things out there that are bad-- you know, there are dark and spooky things out there-- you're also denying them the tools to deal with those things. So for me and my kids, I mean my kids and I, so Halloween spooky stories, it's all fun for them. They are very much acclimated to it. They know scary stories. We do it. We were not The Adams Family about it. We do it in small increments and we have fun with it, but they understand that we do not keep that from them. And it's gone so much as to inspire me to try to go ahead and indulge middle grade writing and see where it takes me as far as writing spooky stories for kids.

[00:25:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I really like that. And I think that you're spot on. I think that sometimes in an effort to want to protect innocence-- and that is noble too-- but in an effort to do so, we sort of veer a little too much on the other side and protect too much instead of giving kiddos an opportunity, especially through stories 'cause what a powerful way too. It's fiction. It's not real. So what a powerful way to share truths about life and get them, you know, to a point where they can learn how to overcome some things that happened that are scary. So, yeah. Kudos to you.

[00:26:27] Justin Alcala: And art. It's so interesting. Because kids get art, you know. Art is creation through aptitudes and inspiration, you know, in order to communicate something wonderful. And you know, and for me, it's using also what's playful, awkward, maybe a little spooky, little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain. And I'll tell you what, kids, I feel like far better than adults, you know, there's a lot of complications that come with adults when it comes to taking in art of any form from painting to writing. It'd be just because you have your, a lot of your own experiences that you filter it through, but kids, they take it, they take the lessons of it. They take the, the metaphors, all of it, and they put it to great use. So, you know, we, I don't think sometimes we give them enough credit when it comes to art and the translation of it, but they're fantastic at it.

[00:27:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And it's such a fun, different perspective when you talk to a, a kid about their experience with art versus an adult. And I think, yeah, well, they just have a more, like you said, kind of filtered view because of things that they've gone through or just their perception and things like that. And kids are just like, "Well, it's a butterfly clearly." Like.

[00:27:41] Justin Alcala: Right. Oh my God. And my daughter, it's funny, you know, she can say the most prolific things to me, you know, about, about "Why did you do that, Lily?" And, well, "My heart told me to, it feels right." And I think that's something that everyone should do. And you hear that you sit and you go, wow. And then her next sentence is, " Let's go get some Cheetos." It's the, it's the best of, it's the yin and the yang of life.

[00:28:07] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And that's, it kind of sounds like something I would say now though, like.

[00:28:15] Justin Alcala: Right, exactly. Exactly. Right. It's just, it's just a filter.

[00:28:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's awesome. Oh my goodness. Well, this is fantastic. And I know that, you know, a big thing that you're passionate about sharing with people is to embrace your, embrace your inner dork or your nerdy side, or what makes you unique. Do you want to share a little bit about maybe some advice you have for somebody who's afraid to put their work out there because they just don't feel like they go along with the majority or, or what's normal, whatever that means.

[00:28:52] Justin Alcala: Yeah, absolutely. The problem is a lot of times, you know, and, and hopefully my contribution to life someday is, is inviting people to embrace what makes them unique, you know, and I do it through stories obviously, but it's just life in general. You know, we have these unique situations in life, strange characters, and people like to suffocate that within themselves. They like to tell themselves, you know, this is nothing society wants me to act this way. I am supposed to interpret how I feel, not by my own, you know, in the words of my daughter, not by my own heart, but by the way people tell me to do things, and we invest far too much in what people think. I will tell you now, the most liberating thing I ever did was, it was just right. Because I'm nerdy and yeah, weird. And I'm a little strange and I just, I wrote it. I got it out. And let me tell you, at first, when I was writing and suffocating all these ideas, people would tell me my writing was just meh. Stepped up and just let it be free. And, and put myself on the pages. People are like, this is fantastic. I could feel the human element of this. The dialogue is great. I, this is, this seems real to me, it's this tangible, even when I write some of the goofiest of things. And so I would encourage anyone to just, you know, metaphorically walk down the street naked, and I'll tell you what.

[00:30:12] People, people you don't need in your lives, they're going to go away. And so people who stick around after they hear your true voice not only will it be liberating for you, but those are the greatest people that will encourage you to the future. And that's not just writing. Obviously for me, the, the lesson is to do with writing, but that's just life in general be you. And I guarantee you, for me, I was me and it really helped me kick off my writing career, but it also just helped me be a happy person. People who know me, where they know what they're going to get. They're going to get some weird, weird, strange talk from me some ideas on what would happen if we could fly through space, goofy, goofy ideas about everything from consumer Lou to Tony, the tiger. But if they're laughing about it, fantastic, that's what you get with me. But you should do the same. You should just stop being who people want you to be and be yourself. It's very rewarding.

[00:31:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Thank you for that. I love that advice and I agree something that you said kind of stood out to me too. You know, you're talking about the people who don't need to be in your life will leave. And the people who do need to be in your life will, will stay in the, and there'll be supportive. And I think one element to that too, is the more that we are able to liberate ourselves, the more liberating that can be to other people. And so the more that we're willing to be vulnerable in a sense, and put our true selves out there, I think that opens up opportunities for other people to do the same, where they might feel otherwise nervous or scared too. But then in the context of you being willing to be honest and talk about your failures, talk about your successes, talk about the bumps and the good points, I think it makes a big difference for other people.

[00:32:04] Justin Alcala: Absolutely, absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. Once you start seeing other people do it, or once you do it yourself, the other people will inspire you, but and once you start doing it, you will inspire others. And I think it's all very good for the world. We are such a-- I don't want to, I don't want to go on too long-- but we are such a society who just needs approval of others. And I tell you what, that's probably the biggest cancer of my life was when I did do that. And, you know, there are things that dictate it. You know, obviously if you're working a corporate world, you have to have managers' approvals and et cetera. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about letting other people affect your life. And I think hopefully someday, you know, with, with the, if you pick up one of my books, you, you will get that there will be examples left and right tell you to be yourself.

[00:32:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And speaking of that, where can we find your work and follow it and be a part of your journey and, and support you?

[00:33:05] Justin Alcala: Oh, yeah, well, you can go to www.justinalcala.com that sort of has a portal to everything. But I'm on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, anything, anywhere where great books are written and, and sold and currently I am-- October 6th, I believe, Parliament House Publishing and I are working on "A Dead End Job." And that will be out. You can pre-order that. Please do, if you can, it's-- you get a little discount if you do it now, but it's a fantastically weird story. And I think I, I'm really proud of it. I think we've really worked hard, the editors and I, in getting it out for readers.

[00:33:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And I just want to make a quick note and I hope I'm speaking correctly. But pre-orders are really important for book sales. They're really important for the author and for, yeah. So as much as you can support the authors ahead of time and go ahead and pre-order your book, the is just, it, it It helps those books once they are actually published to rank higher on the list and more people can see them. So if you're interested in supporting authors, please do so that way.

[00:34:13] Justin Alcala: The more pre-orders you get, the higher in the rankings and the free advertisements and the recommendations other people receive. So literally people pre-ordering, you know, a lot of people say, "Well, I'll just get it when it comes out," literally pre-ordering is going to an artist, a writer on another tier as far as their sales go and it literally helps them once the book comes out start going shoulder to shoulder with the big dogs, instead of possibly just going with a, you know, as something that is someone's, you know, possible fun fan fiction that they went ahead and published and it's just for fun. And they're, it's more of a good hobby for them. Not to say that's not important, but it, it helps, it helps the artist all the work that they've put into it, go shoulder to shoulder with other people who deserve it.

[00:35:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. Awesome. Okay. Well, this has all been fantastic. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:35:12] Justin Alcala: Sure.

[00:35:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay. Fantastic. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:21] Justin Alcala: Yes, I think I may have said it before that art is creation through the aptitude and inspiration in order to communicate something amazing. And for me, you know, it's using what's playful, awkward, and a little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain.

[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:35:43] Justin Alcala: The most important part is communicate and inspire. If you have to find a fundamental way to connect to someone through your medium, and once you communicate with them, you inspire them to take what you said and make it their own. And for books, any characters' story, once I get it out in the world, it was no longer my story. It is the reader's story. What they think is far more important about the protagonist /antagonist, the plot than anything that I've dreamed up, it is their world to be inspired and kind of take it into their own lives and contribute.

[00:36:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And then my final question, and you sort of maybe touched on your answer for this. So I'll be curious to know where you go with it, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I will define my terms. So by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind that, whether it's program notes or title or something, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context. And so it's left entirely up to the viewer or the participant to decide what they do.

[00:36:53] Justin Alcala: I am 100%-- I'll fight people through the end of the earth-- exclusive. I think that once you create something and get it out to the world, what do you hang up a painting or write a book, it is no longer yours. You don't need to describe it. I think when you do the only thing that you really do-- for me writing, I'm taking the best medium that I have in order to create something for enjoyment. Why would I take something like my clumsy tongue and then try to explain what I've already created for the person to enjoy? It is theirs. It is exclusive to them. And over-explaining, it just really is always a bad idea.

[00:37:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. So do you, so then out of curiosity, as my follow-up question, do you ever personally do like author talks where people can ask you specific questions?

[00:37:47] Justin Alcala: Absolutely. But I always, I always make sure to, to let them know this is just one idiot's opinion. This is, this is just my opinion. And hopefully you could take whatever's in my books and come up with a better answer for it. But I am more than happy to take talks and I, and I've done. So I, I'm probably rubbish at them, but I do do it, but I always warn people that you're probably best just reading the book to get that answer out of me. Sure, of course, I'll always answer.

[00:38:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Very good. Well, Justin, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. Your stories are, your stories are fantastic. I can't wait to read your books and just yeah, thank you for just embracing who you are and sharing that with the world. Obviously it's resonated and it's going to continue to resonate. It's going to continue to inspire people who might feel like they can't do that. So thank you for, for leading the way in that. And yeah, this has been so much fun. I really appreciate your time together. Thank you.

[00:38:56] Justin Alcala: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I had a great time.

[00:38:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Good, good. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I highly encourage you to check out Justin's work, pre-order his latest book, help support his artistic journey. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:21] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:31] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 067 - Aunia Kahn

In this week's episode, I welcome Aunia Kahn! Aunia is a true jack-of-all-trade artist. She has excelled in many different art forms, from a painter, graphic designer, and website developer, to podcast host, speaker, and writer--with a brief stint as a one-woman band. She shares her artistic journey and lots of sage advice in her delightful episode. (Fun fact: the cover image for this podcast is one of Aunia's original paintings!)

 

Get in touch with Aunia Kahn: https://auxiliumhaus.com/ | https://auniakahn.com/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 67 - Aunia Kahn

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Aunia Kahn. She is a creative entrepreneur extraordinaire. I feel like that's maybe a good summary there. So many different things that she has dabbled in and obviously is an expert in, so everything from podcasting to graphic design to writing, I believe, and I would say probably a whole smattering of things in between. So thank you so much for joining us today on your I'm so excited to have you here.

[00:02:53] Aunia Kahn: Thank you. And yes, I do.

[00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay, good. I thought so. All right. Well, I would love if you would just share with us a little bit about your background, kind of maybe how you got started, if you're okay with that.

[00:03:06] Aunia Kahn: Yeah, totally. So I kind of came into art in a very strange way. A lot of people come into art because that's what they just want to do. And I didn't come on to art that way. I grew up in a family where I wasn't really supported artistically and I was really encouraged to do like, quote unquote, normal job. And so that's the direction that I went with. My life is studying psychology and other things completely outside of art, but I had always been somebody who just loved art and enjoyed it, but never thought it could be a career. And then I got really sick around the age of 19 and started to have some pretty extensive health crisises, crisis's crazy. Anyway, it's a weird word. Health, health concerns, health issues. And I ended up turning to art as a way to work through those challenges. And because I was always a really driven individual, I've always been very goal oriented and like check off the boxes kind of person in my life that in doing so I felt like I needed to do something with it, not just make the art, but maybe do something with it.

[00:04:27] And one day I was out of my house, which I didn't go out very much. I mean, I was very housebound. I went out to this little park and it was this art thing for kids, and I was there and I was at a little table and I was doing some watercolor pencils. And some gentleman walked up to me and said, "Can I take a picture of you?" And I was like, "Mm. Yeah, no, like who are you?" And he said, "Well, I'm a local, you know, photographer for the local newspaper and we're doing a little thing." And we ended up talking, becoming friends and down the road, he is the person that talked me into first exhibiting my art and putting it out there publicly. And that's how it all started. I started to submit to exhibitions. I started to win awards. I started to get into ,shows but that's kind of how I got started in the world of exhibiting art.

[00:05:25] Graphic and web design I was doing prior to 'cause I was really interested in music and doing music covers and websites well before the art stuff, just for fun. But that's kind of how I got into art and how I got kind of pushed into a place that I really didn't think that could ever support me or that I'd ever be good at, or I'd ever really have success. I just, I was like, oh, okay. This is kind of weird, but I felt connected, Lindsey. I felt really connected with people because I would put my artwork and shows and I would have people make really intense reactions to the work because the work back then was a lot more dark. It had a lot to do with childhood trauma and other really difficult situations. So it was hard for me to even put that stuff on a wall, let alone deal with people's reactions to my work from a distance, but I realized that it was cathartic.

[00:06:23] And since I'd always been somebody who is interested in psychology, I kind of learned that I couldn't be a therapist because of my illness and because I'm too empathetic, but in a way I'm inadvertently helping people by working with trauma and challenging situations through my art, where other people can relate to them and be able to work through it on their own as well. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. And of course it goes on from there, but that's, that's the nutshell over the last 15 years.

[00:06:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So, well, I love the nutshell. That definitely that is so cool. It encapsulates so many different experiences and wow, what an amazing story to go from this like random chance encounter to then that's what kind of sparked your, your creative journey to a different level. Like you said, you were already a graphic designer and so you had that artistic bent, but then too, Oh, my word. Just take it and run through meeting this stranger who asks you this awkward question? I really love that story.

[00:07:32] Aunia Kahn: And I was just going to say it was the same with the graphic design element. I ended up having a friend who had an extra computer and he was just like, "do you, do you want it? It has Photoshop and all this stuff on it. And I know you were interested in web stuff for the band that you were doing." And I said, "yes." And now we're 15 years later and I'm, I do web design, websites and graphic stuff and all that kind of stuff, you know, for a living alongside my art. So two chance encounters, really two, two very different situations and two very different people who I've definitely let them know, like, "thank you." I wouldn't be here today without you, kind of changed my life.

[00:08:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's awesome. Sometimes I think it only takes, you know, one person, whether it's a chance encounter or someone you happen to know or whatever, but they just say the right thing at the right moment. And then it like launches something you, you wouldn't have ever expected. I mean, I've had that experience too. It's special. It's, it's-- you never know when you're going to be that person to somebody else too. So always, you know, pointing people in an encouraging direction, and I'm going off on a tangent here. I'm just recognizing the fact that sometimes those individuals don't realize how much of a difference they're making in the moment. So, yeah, I think it's cool that you go back in and say thanks.

[00:08:51] Aunia Kahn: Yeah. People don't know. I mean, how many times has people's lives been changed by one person and that one person doesn't ever have any clue.

[00:08:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So you had mentioned graphic design and website design, but then you had sort of snuck in this thing about having a band. What was that?

[00:09:11] Aunia Kahn: I don't anymore. This was, this was a long time ago. I did, I did music. I had my own, like a project that was the best way that I could explain it for like the layman, is I was kind of like a female Nine Inch. So I did all the percussion. I did all of the vocals. I did all the mastering of the tracks. I did all the work. I am not at all successful like Nine Inch Nails. So I'm not comparing it like that, like I was amazing. Just kind of like the similar, how, you know, music is constructed. I really didn't have other people with me. It was really just my own thing. And I also ran a small record label along with it, with other bands in the same genre. So it was Gothic industrial synth pop kind of music. Had to quit that because of my illness, unfortunately, but that's kind of where I started to, you know, create album covers and all that. That's kind of where it started. So it was a lot of fun and I miss it. I really do. I've been thinking about revisiting that part of my creativity again, but I haven't sure.

[00:10:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, how fun. Well, and I know you also are a podcast host. I'd love to hear about what, what is your podcast about and all of that.

[00:10:23] Aunia Kahn: Sure. So I do two different podcasts. I have one called the Auxilium House podcast, which is my graphic and web design business. So I give businesses tips and tricks about web design, marketing cause I do a lot of marketing and branding as well. So I run that and then, and that's just kind of like here and there. And then I've had the Creighton Inspire podcast since 2013, 14-- I think 14 and that's been kind of an on and off thing where it's just really about helping artists, giving, giving them ideas about, you know, same thing, kind of like crossover-- marketing, websites how to navigate social media, how to deal with challenging times, how to get into art galleries. Just basically like how to, and then it's kinda coupled like with my blog now where I have blogs and I have videos that I do on YouTube with like the same content. So I'm doing the podcast from time to time, probably like once or twice a month, videos about once a week. And so there's probably like two or three blogs being posted a month with information with, like I said, tutorials, helpful information to really just help inspire artists, and then also dealing with artists in the challenging aspects of a career, feeling really bad about yourself, you know, feeling challenged by other artists that are better than you, feeling like you're worthless.

[00:11:50] I mean, there's just so many things that artists go through because art is such intrinsic-- what's the other word I want to say like, oh, just like deep experience for a lot of people, you know, when people are creating things, whether it's music, art, Anything that they're creating. I mean, you could just be like, you know, I don't know, remodeling a car when you put your energy into something that you're creating. There's a lot of soul that goes into it. And there's a lot of feeling of uncomfortability. Is there going to be social validation? Am I going to be supported? Are people going to make fun of me? So I really try to help artists work through that.

[00:12:25] Lindsey Dinneen: I, I love that. And that is so important because I think that happens so often where it's not just the actual work that you're creating. It's all of the mental work that goes into it as well. And it is, it's an undertaking and it is something where, you know, you, you, you put your best out there and you hope that it's good. You hope that it resonates with someone and a lot of it is just like, well, we'll see. So learning to be comfortable with that is is challenging, but can be really, really cool too, to see the end result of that. So, yeah. That's great that you do that. I love that. Your podcasts sound fantastic. Yeah. I'm super excited to check them out.

[00:13:09] Aunia Kahn: Thanks.

[00:13:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And so then, okay. So I guess what all keeps you busy these days? Cause I obviously feel like you're so multi-talented, so what are all the different things that you're, that you're doing like regularly today?

[00:13:27] Aunia Kahn: Oh, boy.

[00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I know.

[00:13:30] Aunia Kahn: There's, there's, you know, it's one of those things I think, I think there's just different types of creators and I'm just somebody who just really has a hard time not doing things. And being kind of still, I think partially because I lost so many years with my illness, that I'm still trying to catch up with time and I'm also fast anyway. So I've always, and I'm always doing something. Like I like, I like to expand. And I, I think the biggest thing that I'm doing right now is challenging myself to not be in a box because over the last 15 years, I've had a career as an artist that does a specific type of art. And people know me for that art. They just do. That's my name is connected with that and, and I want to bring up my illness cause this is really challenged and change those last few months for me is, over the last couple of years, I finally got a diagnosis after almost 20 years. And I finally got medication, which has helped support my system, and I'm allergic to everything. So that's what my disease is. I'm basically like allergic to things like most foods, even water at times.

[00:14:39] So it has meant for me as an artist that I couldn't touch physical mediums, so I couldn't paint. I had to do everything digitally. I couldn't work in colored pencil because I could have a life-threatening allergic reaction touching something. So over the last numerous years of my career, since 2005, I have primarily been a digital artist. I could deal with graphite from time to time. So I did do that. But other than that, I haven't been able to, and with the pandemic happening in May of last year, not this year. So we're coming up on a year anniversary of this. I was able to work in color pencil for the first time and I didn't have any reaction. And then I slowly in November moved into watercolor. And so I'm exploring all of these new mediums. I have some projects as well, but I'm exploring new mediums and they're not as refined as my other work. And it's very scary to put it out there and know that people are going to hate and they're going to judge it because like anything, when we are used to it.

[00:15:40] I mean, think of bands, Lindsey, like, oh yeah, this band, we know it for this music. And then if they change their style, people are like, "This is stupid. I hate it. This is not what I'm used to." And I understand that we enjoy the feeling of knowing what we're going to get from somebody, because that's why we followed them, right? Like we know the kind of music they're going to. If a band is playing metal music, and then all of a sudden they become country singers, it's like, well, that's not my kind of music I like. I mean, you know, but I, but I want to encourage that that's great. Like do what you want to do. Like, I think it's amazing when bands and artists shift themselves completely, I think it's, it's prolific, but for me as a person who's done it, it's been very hard. I, I kind of knew who I was. I knew where I stood. I kind of understood my career. And now I'm like, "Who am I? I don't know who I am," you know, putting out art that's completely different.

[00:16:33] So one of the ways to remedy this was to create a project called the Portrait Project, which I know is just a general name, but I didn't have anything special. And the idea is people were able to submit pictures of themselves to me. And I was going to randomly pick people through this pool to paint them so that I could master --not really master, cause I don't believe anybody's a master-- but get better, improve in the mediums that I'm working in using realistic faces of people who perhaps couldn't pay me for our commission or maybe wouldn't have had the opportunity to, to be in an, a piece of artwork. So we're talking, you know, different sexes, different races, different ages. So I'm using all people of the world. And this gives me the ability to grow and all artwork once completed is donated to the subject and they have an opportunity to pay me with a donation or if they are unable to do so they don't have. But they can, or people who are not a part of the project can donate to the project. And I also have an Amazon wishlist that has products like tape and, you know, paper and things that I use to ship the artwork. So that's one of the ways that I'm, I'm remedy, remedying it by creating a community connection. I'm healing and I want the community to be a part of it. So that's the real big focus and project that I'm currently working in.

[00:17:59] And then I'm working on commissions on a regular basis. I'm doing some book covers. I'm obviously have graphic and web design clients that I work with on a regular basis that are primarily in numerous industries. So I, you know, have had people in HR and I have artists and I have all these wonderful clients that I'm working with. I'm working on a bird book. So I love birds and I started to paint birds in these mediums. And so I'm creating a bird book with these really cool stories about each of them birds. There's probably like 20 different things that are going, but I think those are the biggest things that are happening. And then of course my exhibition schedule, working with different galleries that I work with yearly for different shows. And podcasting and popping on podcasts and writing blogs and doing videos and just doing the thing.

[00:18:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Just doing lots of things. Do you sleep?

[00:18:56] Aunia Kahn: No. And then people often ask, do I drink coffee or do drugs? And neither, like, I can't do anything. Like, you know, like I'm allergic to everything. I just, I run on, I run on passion for life, really. Like, I'm glad to be here. I think that's why I have so much energy because I didn't think I was going to make it here and to this part of my life. I really didn't. And I'm, I'm glad to be alive. And so I think that there there's just a lot of passion behind that. Like I saw, I have gray hair now, like a good streak in my hair. Good witchy streak on both sides of my temples. And most people would be like, "ew yeah." And I'm like, I love it. I'm alive, I'm here. And so that's where the energy comes from. Just the passion of losing a large chunk of my life, but also just, I'm really glad to be alive.

[00:19:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, thank you for sharing that story because that's incredibly powerful and it is so interesting to hear how you've adapted and just, you know, gone with what you did have. And, and it sounds-- I don't mean to diminish anything that you've been through, but I, I also commend you for, for looking for the positive and looking for what you can do. I think that's would be a very challenging thing to do when you feel like you've lost a lot. And so I think it's so amazing what you're producing and just, you know, your, your passion, your energy, your drive for life, and then what you've been able to do as a result of, of that, and bring a very unique viewpoint to the world. So, man, kudos to you. My word!

[00:20:30] Aunia Kahn: I appreciate that. I think that's one of the things I love to encourage in other people is finding what you can do. It's hard-- I mean, especially now with the pandemic, it's hard for us not to, you know, think about, "oh, I can't do that. I can't do that." And when we realized the things that we can do, it really does help lift our spirits. I think it's an important refrain for almost anybody who's dealing with anything challenging. It's like, what, what can you do? I mean, I did that when I became allergic to all of my jewelry. Like I couldn't wear any of my jewelry anymore because I'm a highly allergic to metals. And I used to just look at my jewelry and I used to be somebody who wore rings on every finger. I mean, I was just very much into jewelry. I remember the day that I was like, I can't do this. I can't look at it anymore. It just reminds me of the can'ts. So I put it all away. And then I remember going online and finding acrylic jewelry and beaded jewelry and doing all that. And it really just shifted that feeling. And so I'd love to encourage other people because everybody's going through something right now, everybody who's listening I'm sure is, has gone through something or is going through something and just kind of, it's not always that feeling of-- people say, "oh, find the good in it." It's like, sometimes you can't find the good in it sometimes really you can't, you need to sit with those feelings, but what can you do? What, what can you do to adapt to the current situation?

[00:21:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I love that perspective. Thank you for sharing that. I think that is just so inspiring, but so incredibly important and you're right. People can relate to that and, and I, I've been more recently sort of tuned into the whole, you know, it's okay to sit with those feelings. I think for a long time, I sort of had a, oh, you know, just trying to find the bright side. And sometimes, like you said, there's not a bright side or it's not immediately known, you know? And so it's hard if you don't let yourself just process, like, yes, this is, this is not fun. This is not ideal. But what can I do? Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So, okay. Well, good gravy. You are amazing and inspiring and I-- no, I mean it, I, I, you know, and I think especially your idea of the, you talked about sort of switching gears and, and going to this, this new way of doing art and, and, and so also kudos to you for being brave, because I also know what that's like is when you've like kind of established who you are and then you veer in a different direction. And sometimes people don't like it, but being true to yourself is really important. So kudos to you for that. So this community project is, do you-- is part of it that you are putting your finished artwork in some kind of a, I know you said you, you'll give it to the subject themselves. But do you also, is this like a gallery project that you've been working on or putting it towards like a portfolio, or is there like a public facing version of this?

[00:23:34] Aunia Kahn: You know, the one thing that I was thinking about doing, because doing, I thought about doing a gallery show, but since the final products aren't currently with me, I mean, I could do digital versions, but one of the things I definitely wanted to focus on is to create a book about it. And to put these portraits of these different people. Of course, some of them have different stories. So I mean, not everybody does, right? Like, or maybe nobody, or maybe some of the people don't want to share their story. But sometimes I have in random picked people who have had stories, like I had a submission where one of the people lost their sister and I actually didn't understand that the person had passed away. I actually thought it was a submission of herself because there was no information and she was randomly chosen and come to find out she had passed away, I believe in 2019, by falling asleep at the wheel of a car. And so when I posted that portrait, we tried to focus on the advocacy aspects of it.

[00:24:36] So that's one of the things I'm really trying to focus on and trying to figure out, like how can I incorporate that into a book or into something in the end that people can acquire, but also recognize that, you know, some people's stories don't want to be told, but maybe their faces are important like for us to look at that person, recognize that there are human beings. They're a part of our world and you know, maybe their story is their story, but other people have stories that are, that are public. So that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm not sure about, I'm always have something that, you know, I want to do like big, like no, do something huge, but I also want to make sure that there's a lot of integrity to it. And that there's a lot of, like, it's not about fanning who I am or, or promotion of myself. It's really for me to like heal and connect. So how can I do that? How could I offer something to the community where it is affordable or, you know, those, all those kinds of things that you, you think about in that aspect? Cause it's just different, you know, it's a different kind of situation and it humbles me. It really humbles me to meet so many different people across the world and all different walks of life.

[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really powerful. So I know before we started recording, you had mentioned also having opportunities to speak at colleges and universities. So I'm guessing that being a public speaker is part of your repertoire of extensive skills. So I'd love to hear more about that.

[00:26:11] Aunia Kahn: Oh, for sure. I absolutely adore public speaking and in the same breath, I absolutely hate it because everybody does. I don't care if you're good at it or not. There is this level of fear that comes with it. " Am I going to mess up, you know, am I going to stumble over my words? Do I have, you know, a fly on my head?" I don't know that that feeling of strangeness to it. And it's the biggest fear. Like people would, people would rather die. Like there's like psychology that says people would rather die than public speak. Like that's how big the fear is for public speaking. So I thought I'd share that if anybody thinks about it and has nervous nervousness around it, I absolutely love going out and doing it. And I talk about various different topic matters, which is a lot of fun. So over the years I have done things like at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, where I have been a part of their mental health outreach project. So creating art and speaking on a panel there. I do things to encourage artists. So, you know, do community support like in Eugene, Oregon, working with Lane Arts Council, where I've been on panels as well. I have gone to numerous places to talk about my background in challenging things in my, in my younger years like bullying and challenging upbringing. So I've talked in various psychology classes, like abnormal psychology and general psychology classes about those kinds of things and, you know, discussing bullying and what it does to people and, and discussing what childhood trauma can do and how it actually affects your immune system. So, those kinds of things.

[00:27:55] And then of course, like mentorship. So I'm working on a local mentorship right now with Lane Arts Council, where I'm working with high school students and we're doing projects in graphic design to see if they might be interested in doing that for future. So that's really fun. So it's just, it's really I think the, the overall arching aspect of what I like to do is really just inspire people and help them to work through challenges or work through kind of where they want to go with it. I think that's really just what I love doing and I wish I could do it more. Of course COVID has changed that for me, but also has brought different opportunities with Zoom, especially since it is hard for me with my disease to go places. Prior to COVID, it was very challenging, but I would, I would push myself because I really loved it so much. It's just something, it's just something that feels really natural to me. And I think the feedback that I get afterwards always feels like it gives me confirmation that I'm in the right space. And I think that's kind of where I, I sit with it, but it's always about inspiration of some sort and I like to talk. So that's the other thing. I just do. Ever since I was little it's like my, my report cards used to say she's an A student, but she won't shut up. Stop talking to her. Then the kids next to her, I'm like, I'm just helping them with their homework. Stop it. Oh.

[00:29:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. It's fantastic.

[00:29:24] Aunia Kahn: It's inbred. It's inbred in me.

[00:29:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right. No, that is wonderful. I love that. Well, I'm sure that you have moments that kind of stick out in your memory, but I always love to hear about, you know, things that just really made an impact on you, whether you were viewing or participating in someone else's art or whether you watched them witness something of yours, but just this like thing that you go, man, I have to tuck this away because this is important. This is something to remember about this encounter with art.

[00:29:57] Aunia Kahn: I think, I think encounters with art for me, I, it really, you know, I think because I've, I was a gallerist. At one point I ran a gallery and also being an artist myself, where I've shown in museums and galleries and things like that, where I've been in the professional aspects of art. The one thing that always sticks to me is when somebody says to me like, "who's your favorite artist?" I think we always kind of want to go to these specific people. And I always say "children" because they're just not-- they don't have any reservation about their creativity. They just do the thing. And obviously being a gallerist for a period of time, it was important for me to judge artwork that was high quality that would keep my business open that I could sell. I would always integrate other people into it though, that I knew that couldn't, or didn't have opportunities, marginalized groups of people I would always invite that are people who've never shown or whatever. But the reason I bring that up is I think really the experience of art for me is just being able to be open and non-judgmental.

[00:31:04] Like there's so many people that are like, "that's ugly" or "you, you don't know how to draw this," or there's so much hate around what's good and what's bad art. And I understand that there's a professional aspect of it where we can judge it on its merit. We can judge it on its quality. But I also feel from a guttural experience where I'm not somebody who ever came into this because I wanted to be where I am today. I was not like, I'm going to be an artist. You know, I'm going to have 350,000 people follow me on Facebook and I'm going to be amazing. Like, no, like that's not at all why I did it. I did it because I needed to survive. I did it because it felt good to. And that was even when I was a kid, I did it as a survival technique. Creativity was this way for me to stay connected, to stay grounded, to stay healthy, to work through challenges. And I really feel that art is like that and that we need to lose judgment of it.

[00:31:59] And you can roll your eyes at, you know, Rothko and go "that's not art," but really, I know people who've cried in front of a Rothko. And if people don't know what Rothko is, it's just, go look it up. I'm not going to explain it. And you'll understand what I'm saying. It's, it's just really simple. And people are like, "oh, that's not art." It's like, art is art. Art is a form of creativity. It doesn't matter what it is. I don't care if you're sewing buttons on shirts. I don't, I don't care what you're doing, if you're gardening. The idea of creating something or doing something with our hands, the idea of being a maker, the idea of all of that is just, I just feel like it's so-- and I have a hard time with judgment and I'm really big about like, let's not judge, let's just be, let's just enjoy, let people, let people do what they want to do. Like why do we always have to be so judgmental? You know, I get it in the industry. There's a reason to be judgmental because there is a professionalism in certain aspects of showing in a gallery. I get that galleries can't just go, "well, we're just going to show whoever, because we're not going to get our bills paid then."

[00:33:04] But overall the general aspect of creativity, the general aspect of human, the human condition to create from, you know, centuries ago is just a soul. And that's the thing I always try to remember in every aspect. And that's why I'm able to kind of like move into some other thing, because it's like, I don't want to just be known for one thing, because that makes me feel good about myself. I was like, no, I want to be known for somebody who's willing to take risks, who's willing to try and actually almost destroy my career because I'm willing to be vulnerable and actually show my face. You know, I do that a lot on my Facebook page where I show things I totally screwed up because I want people to not see a curated version of me. I want us to realize we're all human and creativity is his soul. And so I'm preaching, but it's so important to me. Like it's so important for me to nurture that. And, and everybody that I know.

[00:34:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I love that. And yes, I think you went into professor mode and I adore it. No, that was perfect and so inspirational. And, fully, fully agree with you. And I love how you kind of, you know-- I think this is an important distinction-- I love the way that you, you talked about it in that, you know, art can be so many different things. There's so many different people and it doesn't have to be judged. I mean, it's just, there's a place, there's a lot of place for that. And there is a place when you're paying bills based off of the art where, you know, a certain level of professionalism needs to come into play, but I like the fact that you separated them and they're both valid. I think that's such an important thing is, you know, sometimes we talk about how, "oh, you can't call yourself an artist unless you've sold your work" or something like that. And it's like, "well, no, you know, you are an artist." I think humans are inherently creative and it just depends on the outlet you choose to express that.

[00:35:06] Aunia Kahn: Absolutely.

[00:35:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And you kind of already answered my first question, but I'll let you elaborate it anyway just in case that you want to add to it, because a lot of what you had just said was sort of answering it, but do you mind if I ask you a couple of my favorite questions?

[00:35:23] Aunia Kahn: Yeah, of course.

[00:35:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:35:24] Aunia Kahn: I told you I like to talk!

[00:35:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Very true. Okay. So, and again, you can choose to elaborate it or just say, you know what, I think I've covered it, but the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:38] Aunia Kahn: I love it. So, you know, art, art is whatever it wants to be. And I, I'm really in love with all aspects of creativity. There's so many things that I'm sure that even people that are listening to that don't recognize as art or things that are going on that people aren't seeing, performance art being one of them, the collage community. I mean, there's just so many different types of art and it can be whatever it can be, whatever it wants to be, whatever you want to call art. If I want to put a, a rock on my desk and put a little hair clip on top of it, and I want to call it a sculpture, like, that's what I feel art is. I feel art is really anything you want it to be and anybody can be outside and go, yeah, that's a hair clip in a rock. Like that's not art, you know? And that's fine. Like, that's fine. But what we feel is it, how, how are we expressing ourselves? And if that makes me feel something, it's putting that hair clip on that rock does something for me, that's all that it really matters because art is really not about the viewer. It's more about the person doing it. Now, I know there's plenty of people who create art as you know for social justice and political reasons. Like I get that, like, it is more for the viewer. Like I get it. And maybe the people are doing it or having a really great experience around it as well.

[00:37:04] But when I think of art, I think about the core aspects of how is the person creating it, feeling about it? What are they getting from it? And that is really all that should matter to an artist. First of course, there could be other layers, like an onion on top of it, of how they want to take that out into the world. And if they want to take it out into the world, because there's a lot of people out there who are doing art that nobody even knows exists. Like my partner is also a gallery artist. And over the last year, he's decided he's not doing public art anymore. He's-- not public art, like, you know, public art in public places, but putting his art into galleries. And he has been doing a really private study of his own work and totally changed his style as well. And there's plenty of artists out there that we'll never see, we'll never get to experience, but it's all about the experience for ourselves while we're creating the work.

[00:38:00] Even if we're creating it just for commerce. And that's fine too. If you want to be an artist and you want to create it for commerce and you know what people like, and you know how to sell it, good for you. You know your reason behind it, it doesn't make it any less art than somebody who's creating something for galleries or creating something, you know, just for themselves or maybe even for their parent or their best friend. So that's kind of what art is to me, the experience of creating something. What it does, how, how we experience it, and then the decision of how we're going to take that further if we want to take it further.

[00:38:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that definition. Perfect. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:38:45] Aunia Kahn: The most important role of an artist is to not worry about what everybody thinks. The most important role of an artist is to do what they want to do in, in themselves, what feels right for them and to not cater to anybody else. Unless of course they're catering for a reason, like I said you know, a minute ago, like, you know, I want to sell my work and I know this kind of stuff sells, and this is what I'm creating, because I know I can make a dollar and pay my bills. That's great. You know, but I-- the role of an artist is to be who they want to-- I think the role of anybody, I think the role of an artist is the role of anybody, really, to be who you want to be without explaining yourself. Of course, unless you're harming people, that's a whole other thing, but, you know, be who you want to be, express how you want to express, live how you want to live, without the expectations and pressures of society and other people. That's how I feel artists and people not should-- cause I don't like the word should-- but would benefit in living life, being free, free of, free of all of that, to just be what you want to be, do what you want to do. Say what you want to say.

[00:40:02] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. That's so important. That's absolutely so important. Okay.

[00:40:08] Aunia Kahn: Yeah. You know, we're pack animals. When we get rejected, there is a, there a, a visceral deep primal feeling that we're going to die. You know, when we are not accepted by the group and people feel bad, you know, feel bad about that. Like, oh, well I feel rejected. I shouldn't feel this way. It's like, no, there's actually a primal reason that we stay in packs or we stay in groups or we need community. So it's really hard for people to step against that, push against that and being willing to risk being rejected. Cause there's a lot more, there's a lot, it's a lot deeper than people believe it to be, right?

[00:40:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I think that, that, that's nice to think about because it allows you to give yourself some grace too, when you're like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. Well, there's a very natural reason you feel this way and that's okay. And you know, we can also choose to move beyond it, but it is okay. Yeah. Okay. And my third question, my final question is, and I'll kind of define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes or a title, or the inspiration, just something to give people a little bit of background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left solely up to the viewer to decide what they will.

[00:41:40] Aunia Kahn: I think that's a really great question. I really do. I think that-- kind of backing onto what I said, I think it's whatever. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like it's just like, whatever the artist wants to do. And however they want it to be. I mean, there's so many artists out there who will put stuff out there and people are like, "what does that mean?" And they're like, "I don't know. You tell me what it means. Like it's not for me to tell you." And then there's other artists out there who are willing to write elaborate stories about why they created a piece. And I think it's really left to the artists to decide how they want to present that because really in a world of putting art out there, it doesn't matter if you put context behind it or you do not put context behind it. People are going to digest that work in their own way. We look through life in our own lens, from our own experiences, our own cultural biases are, how our family structure is, where we live. All of these things give us a lens to view things through and doesn't matter if somebody puts context to something or not. The people who are going to consume it are going to consume it the way they're going to consume it. So there's almost no way to really guarantee it by putting context to something that it's going to land the way that you want it to. So it's, I think it's just being open as an artist to go, like, "do I want to add context and do I not want to add context, but I have to understand if I don't add context that people can feel into it and pretty much add anything to it." But on the other side, if I do add context, the same thing's going to happen. You know, it's the same thing. People are going to judge it. So I think it's really up to them.

[00:43:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Great. I agree. I love that answer. Well, my goodness, you are so incredibly inspiring and I just love hearing your stories and, and just all the wonderful things that you bring to the world. I think the way that you have chosen to produce art, the way that you've chosen to live your life and to bring this beauty and inspiration to the world is just fantastic. And I feel like I'm just kind of repeating myself cause I'm really inspired.

[00:43:54] Aunia Kahn: I love that, though. That's really sweet and I feel the same about you. I feel, you know, that your questions and, and the way that you conduct what you do is very genuine and inspiring as well. It's, it's very helpful. And I think a lot of people get value from what you do.

[00:44:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, and I know there are going to be lots of our listeners who are super interested in what you do. And I'm curious if there's a way that they can connect with you, either through websites, social media, whatever you're comfortable sharing. I know that we'd love to follow your journey, maybe listen to your podcast.

[00:44:29] Aunia Kahn: Great. So you can find me with my art on auniakahn.com, A U N I A K H A N.com. I am on all social media, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, I'm very active there with the people that I engage with. I love engaging with my followers and supporters. If you guys are interested in my graphic design work, it's Auxilium. A U X I L I U M house spelled in German, H A U S.com. And that's pretty much, you can find me anywhere just by putting my name in.

[00:45:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Thank you. Well, again, of course thank you so very much for being here. I really appreciate your time today and just excited to share your artwork and your love and passion for life with the world. So thank you so much for that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:45:39] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:45:49] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 066 - Phillip Andrew Bennett Low

In today's episode, I welcome Phillip Andrew Bennett Low! Phil is a writer, storyteller, and playwright, who actively participates in Fringe Festivals across the United States. He shares stories from his artistic journey, including sage advice for those who don't feel ready to dive in, along with memories that really stand out to him as moments that matter. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Phil!) 

 

Get in touch with Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: https://www.maximumverbosityonline.org/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 66 - Phillip Andrew Bennett Low

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, a fellow Fringe Festival producer. I'm always so thrilled to meet and chat with fellow Fringe producers, because there's just such this cool community and comradery. And I just, I'm so thrilled that you're here. So today I have Phillip Andrew Bennett Low as my guest. He is a writer, storyteller and playwright. And thank you so much for joining me, Phil. I'm so excited to have you here.

[00:02:48] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Hey, thanks so much for having me.

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I would love it. If you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started in your artistic pursuits and go from there.

[00:03:01] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, sure, absolutely. I'm, I'm one of those guys in show business who's done a little bit of everything at some point or another, but I'm probably best known as a storyteller, as one of those guys who tours the Fringe circuit and does one- man shows. I've been doing this for a pretty long time. I'm, I was one of those kids, I was one of those kids who sort of knew he wanted to be a writer right away. I didn't have the, the soul seeking, hand ringing angst about that, that a lot of people in our generation did, but the form of that has changed a lot. And frequently over the years, but I always sort of knew I wanted to put words together in front of an audience.

[00:03:45] And then as a teenager, I fell into the world of community theater and I was one of the people who wasn't smart enough to quit. So I just, you know, kept going and going and and yeah, eventually I ended up on the Fringe circuit. I was writing plays for a while. I fell backwards into doing a storytelling show, which took off and then I did more. And then I toured and you know, I, I wish I had some sort of like, you know, conversion story, some like Damascian revelation where like I hated art, and then one day I, I, I learned that it was great. I've been a convert from early on.

[00:04:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. I love it. Well, okay. So, so many questions popped into my mind immediately when you're just doing the intro. So I love it. The first thing is, can you explain the difference to our audience that might not know actually, including myself, kind of how you differentiate between sort of a one- man show versus a storytelling show? Is it-- because they're kind of separate, it sounded like the way that you were describing it and I may have misinterpreted, but.

[00:04:51] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I I can not answer that question without making a lot of people angry, but I'm game to give it a try anyway.

[00:04:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Great.

[00:05:00] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: That storytelling is one of those disciplines where people are very protective of the definitions that they form of it. I favor a very broad one. I sort of feel like if you walk onto a stage by yourself and use words to tell a story, I'm comfortable calling you a storyteller. And I get that that encompasses some standup comics and slam poets. And I'm totally okay with that. I'm, I'm happy with that door being wide open, but yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's a lot of different ways to draw circles around that. I mean, people who do monologues as a specific character. There's people who jump out and act out a bunch of different characters. There's the people who tell a story in a more traditional way from sort of a third- person omniscient point of view. And I am, I am just wholly uninterested in building walls up between those things and creating a definition that's going to block people out of it. I think if you call yourself a storyteller, and if your audience would call you a storyteller, I am, I am perfectly comfortable with that being flung towards anyone who finds it useful.

[00:06:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's helpful. Cause it's, it's just, you know, one of those, one of those things-- not being a theater person, super appreciative, love it, but not being in that genre myself-- I've noticed that, you know, it there often is it sort of a distinction, like storytellers talk about being a storyteller and this is a storytelling show or whatever, versus like I'm doing a one man production and it's, and it almost seems like they're two separate things, right? Yeah. Okay. That's helpful. Thanks. I like, I like it. I like the idea of it being more inclusive of a more broad range of people.

[00:06:47] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah. You've, you've, you've mentioned you have a dance background, right?

[00:06:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:06:51] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So you're, you're, you're perfectly familiar with people getting sort of weirdly dogmatic about where to, where to build those barriers and definitions over what they do.

[00:07:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. I think the safest thing is probably to label yourself as a dancer, but, you know, so that you don't get into too many of the genre wars, but yeah. Yeah, and then, okay, so you mentioned doing Fringe quite a bit. How did you first learn about Fringe as a, as an organization, as a whole and what made you dive in?

[00:07:25] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh man. It's, it's a sad story. I was, you know, I was one of those, those guys where I was just writing plays and writing plays and just blind submitting them to theater after theater, you know, going through the drama, the source book with a red pen and, you know, building up a big stack of rejection letters. And I, it was back in the days when news groups were a thing. You know, for the young ins listening, that's like Reddit before there was Reddit, but it was me just throwing out this pleading, "I'm writing all this stuff and I just want to get it in front of an audience. How can I do it?" And someone responding, "Well, there's this thing called the Fringe." And you know, me doing lots of Google because Google was a thing. And yeah, and me just sort of diving into and falling down that rabbit hole. The 2004 Minnesota Fringe was my first Fringe Festival.

[00:08:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Okay, perfect. And then are, is this something that you do on a more full-time basis as, you know, they do the Fringe circuit or is this like a seasonal kind of thing for you to do Fringe Festivals? And I know everything looks a little different these days, but let's say, back in the day when it was in person in the, in the before times.

[00:08:40] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yes, I was one of those guys doing the circuit, although that's slowed down recently .I'm a stay at home dad. So traveling has new challenges reached in that for me, but I definitely still try to get out to a couple of festivals a year when those festivals happen. Although now I'm, I'm streaming to a bunch of different festivals. So in a way that door's weirdly half open again. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I am totally a circuit guy. If I could afford to live on the circuit full-time I 100%.

[00:09:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I've met a few of those people who do it literally full-time, although I'd have to catch up with them now, but it's just so amazing to me. They'll just live out of this cool camper like thing and just travel around and Fringe, Fringe Festival it up. So that's fun. Well, very cool. Well, okay. So you've mentioned being a dad. What, how has that informed your work? Has that changed anything about the way that you create?

[00:09:39] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I have a lot less time for it. It's definitely-- I dunno. I think I, I think it's made me a lot more efficient. I have a lot less time to work, but I also, I waste a lot less time than I used to. When I have time, I use it. And yeah, I've definitely had to get used to having a toddler running under foot while I'm rehearsing for things. He's grown used to it. There was one time I was doing a, you know, a comedy monologue that involved me shrieking a lot into a microphone and he burst into tears when I rehearsed it. So we've had to have some conversations about like what it means when Daddy's doing a shows.

[00:10:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Oh my word. Yeah. Wouldn't have thought about that, but that makes complete sense. So yeah, so now you are-- have you finished the production portion of your upcoming show that I know is at least, well, it is not only debuting at the Kansas City Fringe Festival, but other Fringe Festivals as well. But have you finished that production? Are you still in the works?

[00:10:45] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I, I have a complete recording of it. I have lots of post-production to do in terms of editing and, you know, making it make sense and be relevant for the festival I'm doing it at, but you know, the fun creative stuff is done now. It's, you know, slugging towards the finish.

[00:11:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Do you do all your own editing yourself?

[00:11:06] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Again I, I would love to have the kind of expendable income to hire someone else to do all that at the less fun parts of the job. But it's still a one man band right now.

[00:11:19] Lindsey Dinneen: I understand. I understand. Well, we can only keep keep dreaming and shooting for those goals, yeah? One day I'll have my own editor. And until then, it's me doing it all. I, I get that. It's all good, though. Well, that's exciting. So yeah, so this year you're going to be premiering-- this is, this a brand, this is a brand new show for you. Is that correct?

[00:11:43] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I've done it once before. I did it for ,I did it online for the Minnesota Fringe back in 2020 as a, as a live stream.

[00:11:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow. Okay. Nice. And so can you tell us a little bit, maybe more about what the show is about and maybe even your creative process in developing it?

[00:12:03] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah, totally. It's, the title is "On the Concept of Irony with No Reference to Socrates." And it's a, it's sort of a comic horror anthology. It's a collection of different stories that are, you know, about dark and terrible things happening to people in a way that is hopefully funny is the best way I can think of describing. This is the perfect time for it, right? But yeah, it's, I mean, generally the way these anthology shows come together for me as I sit down with a binder full of, well, what's everything I've written in the past year and what's the connecting theme and there always is one. And it, it was a very dark show because it's been a very dark year. So I think that's how that emerged.

[00:12:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, I can understand that. And so this has a political bent as well, I would, if that's, is that correct? Based on what I know from you describing it earlier?

[00:13:03] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, I I'd say that's fair. Yeah. It's yeah. There's usually a little bit of a political bent to everything I do, although a little bit more to this one. Like there's some, you know, it's yeah. It's, it's really hard to describe --part of this is because these are all sort of short horror stories that revolve around a twist. So it's hard to talk about them without revealing, you know, and here's the punchline, but like it is stuff --like one of the stories is about a comedian waking up in this post-apocalyptic dystopian future and trying to pick up his career where he left off and, you know, one of them is about the sort of a Lovecraft parody about a scholar being driven mad by his new Bischon puppy, you know, it's, it's stuff like that.

[00:13:51] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fantastic. Okay. Yeah. I know you can't give us, you know, the full synopsis, which is fair. Yeah. Okay. So sort of, yeah, gathering what you've kind of created throughout the year and then, and then coming together and with this theme, I think that's really cool. So what are some other themes that you've tackled in the past that have sort of just, again, emerged based on what was happening in the world or what was happening in your life? I'm just curious about some of your former work as well.

[00:14:20] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh yeah. That's a really good question. There's a, I'm trying to think of my previous anthology shows. I, I hadn't. Probably my first was a horror collection called "Fear and Trembling" that-- another very bleak one. I don't have a lot of super uplifting shows. I, I wish I was one of those guys. I wish I can count the number of shows I've written with like a quote unquote happy ending, probably on one hand. It's, I did one called" Concept of Anxiety" that was largely SciFi and largely sort of an examination of time and memory and mortality will be the biggest thing of just you know, I think, I think I'm the first writer to really ever tackle the question of dealing with their own mortalities. I'm, I'm quipping. I'm pretty sure I'm not.

[00:15:08] Lindsey Dinneen: So you mentioned these as anthology shows specifically. So you would create that as, as say a separate category then. It's just like, what else would be, what else have you done, I suppose, that would be a different? Just because again, this is, this is new to me, I'm sure it's new to some of our listeners-- as far as like, sort of within theater, you have these different, you know what I mean, different kinds of genres or different styles or whatever. I just, I'm just very curious to learn.

[00:15:36] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Totally, totally. I mean-- I, and yeah, I've definitely done one man shows that revolve around a single story. The last show that I took to Kansas City in the before times was called " Get Thee Behind Me, Santa: An Inexcusably, Filthy Children's Time-travel Farce for Adults Only."

[00:15:53] Lindsey Dinneen: You believe in long titles

[00:15:54] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: And cumbersome language, funny. So if you don't, my shows will probably be a slog.

[00:16:01] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. I just have to tease you because I'm like your title this year is long and that's even longer. I love it.

[00:16:08] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: But yeah, the premise of that one, it was, it was a time travel farce in which Jesus and Santa which places and create a new timeline. And it's the efforts of various characters to try to restore the original timeline. And yeah, so that's certainly one of the silliest things I've ever written. That's probably one of the five happy endings.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay. Awesome. That, that is, that sounds fantastic. I I feel like I need to see that. Oh man. Okay. So now, I'm also curious because I, I would imagine that the genre, so to speak, of horror is quite broad in that it could be everything from, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but everything from like scary stories, but that are like scary, you know, like, you know, campfire stories that aren't bad- bad versus like, you know, so like to the extreme, and I wouldn't even know that because I don't watch it. It's like, where do you kind of fall in the spectrum of what horror could be as far as your stories? Like would I be terrified is really what I'm asking?

[00:17:17] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, I, I, I definitely write a pretty wide range of stuff. This particular show is definitely going for the blackly comic vein. So I don't know that there's anything particularly terrifying in them so much as unsettling or sickening, in again, hopefully funny ways. Like I have definitely written some stuff, stories that reach for the-- hopefully this year I will be releasing a written my third book, a horror collection, that has a wider range of stuff in it. In this one, yeah, I'm definitely hoping-- it, it's always tough with something like horror to say, " I'm hoping people have a good time." But like, it's, this is not, this is not a show that's about giving you nightmares. This is a show about making an audience uncomfortable in hopefully different ways.

[00:18:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so, okay. Well that, that helps because I can deal with that. I just don't like to be terrified. So is it uncomfortable is, is doable, but I'm curious, is it so that you can inspire your audience to think differently about a subject or to act differently, or is it simply uncomfort, discomfort for discomfort's sake?

[00:18:36] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I'm, I'm definitely not a missionary writer. I'm the, I know I write a lot of political material, but I'm not a guy who really believes in audiences going to come see one of my shows and scream, "The scales have fallen from my eyes," and convert to my ideology. But I, I do think if what I write serves the function, I'd probably call it something like reverse gaslighting in terms of, I want people to come to see one of my shows and go, "Oh, okay. I'm not crazy. Someone else does think everything else is crazy too."

[00:19:12] Lindsey Dinneen: So also kind of hoping then to-- well, and I'm extrapolating, so correct me if I'm wrong-- but sort of bringing awareness to maybe the darker side of, of experiences that we've all sort of had, but we think are like solely unique to us of sort of, "Oh, nobody else thinks this way or something like that." Okay.

[00:19:35] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I think that's totally fair.

[00:19:38] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. Deal. Very good. Well, you know, you, you mentioned not that having this like huge transformative story, but you've obviously been very brave in going after, you know, your passions and your dreams. I mean that, that's not easy and that shouldn't be like glossed over, right? I, I feel so I'm, I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for somebody who is interested in trying to get their work out there, but maybe feels super intimidated or isn't quite as like, "I'm just going to go for it and see what happens." You know what I mean? Like somebody who's a little more hesitant, what would your advice be.

[00:20:17] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, I, I wish I had something more encouraging to say then, you know, stop procrastinating. Like there, there really is a point at which you can, you can think about this all you want. You can deconstruct this all you want. You can rewrite this all you want, but sooner or later, you've, you've just got to get something in front of other people even if, even if it's at an open mic or a reading or, or a live streaming on Twitch or anything. You've, you've, you have to take that step to getting in front, getting it in front of another human being. I think that's-- because that's, that's really the first step. That's when you're going to learn very quickly, whether what you're doing is working or not, and what's not working about it.

[00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think I love that advice. I think you're absolutely correct. You know, just if anyone's listening to this and interested in an opportunity to get their work out there, you know, Fringe Festivals are the perfect way to do that, I think. I don't know how you feel, Phil, but what's great about them is that they are unjuried and uncensored. And so, you know, for developing an audience and getting real honest feedback, it's a really good way to do it at an affordable rate, I think. What do you think?

[00:21:35] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm obviously I'm a convert. I've, I've devoted a not insignificant portion of my adult life to Fringe Festivals. So I'm, I'm not going to take any sort of counterpoint to Fringe Festivals being a great, fantastic thing. But yeah, I, I just, I also feel like this advice is so much more discouraging in the middle of our current situation. Just go out, go to a show, get in front of an audience, or it's like, no, nobody can do that right now.

[00:22:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. But like you said, there are virtual ways to do so. And you know, you can really start small and just get a few people's feedback. I mean, it doesn't have to be like, you know, a worldwide debut, it can be literally just a couple of people who are willing to give you that feedback. So, yeah, no, I think, I think you're spot on and I, I would like to imagine that we'll get back to live performances soon.

[00:22:26] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I'm hopeful. I think I'm more, I'm more pessimistic then a lot of our colleagues. I think, I think we've still got a ways to go, but I'm, I do see light at the end of the tunnel. So I'm enthusiastic about that.

[00:22:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. And that's, that's fair for sure. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, your life has looked different recently. You talked about, you know, having a toddler and obviously that changes the way that you work a little bit, well, a lot, I'm sure. And then also there's COVID, which messed everybody up. But do you think that, you know, over the last year obviously wrote a show that was darker in nature, but like, what were the things that stood out to you that, that were productive, that were interesting developments in the art world or the theater world?

[00:23:18] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, for me. This has been sort of a boon for me in the way, 'cause it threw me out of my comfort zone in terms of I'm one of those guys that really dove onto the grenade of live streaming. I've been trying to produce a couple of shows a month and I've really been challenging myself to find ways to use the medium, like to not just stand up and, and perform one of my one- man shows to a webcam, but trying to figure out ways, okay, this is, this is a legit new, medium. What are, what are things I can do? I'm working on commissioning new music for a couple of different shows. I have, the show I'm doing for Kansas City Fringe, it involves me performing against like animated backgrounds and things like that that changed behind me as the scenes change and as I'm talking about different events in the story. So I've, yeah, I've really been pushing myself to try to find new ways to use new media.

[00:24:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I totally relate to you going out of your comfort zone. But yeah, it's, it's been an interesting not to overuse the word, pivoting, but you know, it's been an interesting, pivoting year. I'll put it that way.

[00:24:31] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I did a show on election night that was just me. It was me reading favorite historical texts from about a 5,000 year period around different sort of political movements. And, but yeah, it was, it was me reading for five hours straight, and there is no way in a million years I would do this in a live theater and expect an audience to stick around for it. But like via a live stream system, like I'm basically a radio station, you know, people can tune in and out. They can play me in the background while they do something else. It's, you know, it's, it's not something I would ever do in an in-person performance, but it's something I was really excited about doing online. So I've been trying to change my thinking in that way.

[00:25:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's super cool. What a unique idea, I love it. Yeah. And that makes total sense. Yeah, you're right. No audience would probably stay for five hours. I don't even know if we can get them to stay for two sometimes, but you know, that's awesome. I love it. Well, I'm sure that there are many moments that probably stand out to you, you know, impactful when it comes to the arts, but I'm curious. Do you have any specific stories that come to mind either witnessing somebody witness your art or you witnessing somebody else's art that was like, "I've got to remember this moment. This is important."

[00:25:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh man. There's so many. And oh, I feel like so few of them are stories like, there was a, I was a huge fan of a theater in Minneapolis. They were this Leacock based company that chose to set the stakes in Minneapolis, for whatever reason. They just had lots of really brilliant movement, clowning, poetic stuff. Or I really like nothing I've seen before or since. But again, if I try to describe a single moment, it's, it's tricky to do, and I've certainly, I've had those moments in my own work, you know, where you, 'cause again, it's, it's very easy in our profession to sort of fall into our own heads and to find ourselves floundering with a sense of, "Well, am I just screaming into a void? Does anyone responding to this at all?" And then you, you do get those moments of you know, people who come out. And you know, I, I had a 10 minute preview I did as part of a showcase in a small town in Minnesota, where someone just came up to me afterwards with tears streaming down their face. And I mean, that's something you remember as a performer, because that is not a performance that I was even particularly invested in. You know, it was sort of annoying and something I had to do, but you know, it, the work did the work.

[00:27:20] And you know, I, I, I can think of a couple of things, like there was a time in Indianapolis. I do a fair amount of political comedy, which is often challenging, has grown more challenging in recent years. But I remember one show I did in Indianapolis, where there was a group of hecklers who came with the intention of sabotaging the show. But about 15 minutes into it, I won them over and then they invited me out for drinks afterwards. So like, that's definitely something I hold as a badge of honor.

[00:27:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. That's huge. Congrats. I love that story. I think that must be one of the rarest occurrences of something like that happening. Kudos to you. ,

[00:28:04] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: But I also think a lot of it with political comedy is people expect you, and, and certainly my stage persona is more sort of brash and confrontational than I am in real life. I'm a very conflict averse person in real life. But also that in most of these shows, I really, really make an effort to make myself vulnerable that I'm not presenting myself as a, you know, I don't lurch onto the stage as a guy who has all the answers. I'm, I'm awkward and clumsy and a screw up and I, I talk about my experiences in the world of politics and activism, and and I think that self-deprecation tends to disarm people. But it's, it's, it's totally opposed to our instinct because of this, you know, this is a world that's so venomous that our instinct is defensiveness and it's very hard to, to switch that off, you know?

[00:29:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I do. And I, yes, I agree with you. But I, I really liked that approach and I think that that's so helpful. It's so interesting. I'm actually, I just finished reading a book called "Dare to Lead" by Brene Brown, which is fantastic if anyone needs a good read, but she talks so much about vulnerability and, and when you're vulnerable and willing to be, yeah use self deprecating humor or whatever, then it opens up conversations that wouldn't either take place or would be awkward or controversial or whatever, but like, if you can start from a place of vulnerability and be like, "This is me, this is where I'm coming from." Then all of a sudden you can open up these doors. So I love that. I love that that's what you do.

[00:29:49] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, I should also throw out the caution to anyone hoping to follow in these footsteps that it does not work a hundred percent of the time. There are definitely times I walk out and say, "I'm a terrible person." And the audience's fully prepared to agree with me.

[00:30:01] Lindsey Dinneen: And you're like, "Okay, here we go." Oh, no, that's funny. Well, to be an artist is to be brave, yeah? It's part of the deal. Oh my goodness. Well, this is awesome. So I'm sure that there are listeners who will want to connect with you and, you know, watch your shows and follow what you're doing. So is there a way for them to do that and how can we stay in touch?

[00:30:28] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, there, there totally is. Easiest way is my website, which is maximumverbosityonline.org. You mentioned that I had a thing for a unwieldy titles and there it is. That's my website. Yeah. We also have a Facebook page, which is updated significantly less. That website is your best hope if you want to know what's going on.

[00:30:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I can relate. Social media is one of those things I'm like, okay, here we go. Got to remember to keep up with it.

[00:30:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh yeah. And if, if you're trying to avoid the venom social media is not a place you want to spend a lot of your time.

[00:31:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair, totally fair. Well, that's awesome. Thank you for that. Yes. You know, I, I just had to tease you about those titles, but I, I do love a good, long title. So anyway. Perfect. Well, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you sharing your stories and your insights. And I do have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:31:26] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, of course. Has anyone ever said no? Have you ever?

[00:31:30] Lindsey Dinneen: No one has ever said no. I did have a guy one time who was like, "What happens if I do say no?" And I was like, "Well, I, I, you know, if you did I'd respect that, I would find it ironic, but yes, you can say no." Okay. Well, anyway, the first question is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:31:52] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, man. Okay. Again, I'm I'm the broad definitions guy. So I mean the, the cop-out answer would be to just say, I'd accept whatever definition anyone wants to give, but trying to be a little more thoughtful about it. How do I define art? I would say, I would say it takes a, there has to be an element of artifice for me. In, and even saying this as a storyteller who stands on stage telling personal stories, I think there does have to be an element of someone presenting themselves to someone else and presenting something created, something that there is an acknowledgement between the person presenting it and the person receiving it, that there is an element of unreality to this. That's pretty vague, but that's the first thing that's sprang into my head. So I think I'll stick with it.

[00:32:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I like it. Okay, perfect. And then my second question is what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:32:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So my instinctive response to that is leeriness, because I, first of all, I obviously do believe that there is an important role for artists. I'm a professional artist. It's, it's something I've devoted a huge portion of my life to. It's my passion. I am always a little fearful that there's a danger because we've all known that sort of the artist with the sort of messianic complex, you know, the idea that I'm creating something because I believe it's important. And this approach generally creates art that is not that enjoyable. And I'm, I'm resistant to that. That said, I do believe that art is important, but I, I tend to flinch from that as a starting place for making something. But if I had to say, what is the role of art? Again, the first thing that leaps into my mind is, it's to provide a kind of fun house mirror. It's to provide a reflection of reality that distorts it in some way or shifts our focus onto a specific aspect of it. Does that, does that work?

[00:34:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, that definitely works. I love that description. Absolutely. Never heard it put quite like that. And I think it's fabulous. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title, show notes, just the inspiration behind it. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:34:53] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Cool. So the question is basically, how do I feel about sort of letting people backstage of the process? Is that, am I reading that correctly?

[00:35:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I, yes. I think so. Yeah. Context versus not having contexts. So either yeah knowing a little bit about what the artist was intending or experiencing during the creation versus like none of that.

[00:35:18] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Right, right. So it's sort of like a, does a magician explaining his trick, ruin the trick?

[00:35:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure.

[00:35:24] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Sort of thing. Or, or, or it's also like a death of the author thing, right? Where should we just, once something is created, should we ignore the intention behind it because it's sort of out there in the world? Or, yeah. Okay. That's actually a really heady question. I can, my instinct, so I have two totally conflicting instincts about this. My first is that as a writer, I have sort of a caution about exposing too much about the process if only because I think, first of all, it's, it's very easy to romanticize the process. And I think so much of it is, is really kind of tedious. It's, you know, I, I mean, it's, you know, there's a huge portion of it that's just work, that's just problem solving. That's just looking at a problem and rewriting any sort of worry that exposing people too much to that process causes it to lose some of the romance. That said I am also one of those guys who totally digs into, if I find a writer or an artist or a work of art I like, I will dig into as much information I can possibly find about who the artist was, how it was created, what might've been going on in their head.

[00:36:45] So there's, there is definitely an element of hypocrisy in me wanting to be very guarded about my own process, but being very deeply interested in others. My, my cop-out answer is that I think it's up to the individual art. No, no, no, no. I'm going to push myself a little harder, 'cause my thing, like, I've just been going down my whole Kafka obsession again, where like half of his words he explicitly asked to be destroyed upon his death and his executor refused to do this and published it anyway. And I feel a great sense of debt to his executor for not following his last wishes. The, if I have to give an answer, I think more information is not bad. Believing that you have all the information is bad. I think that's my, my statement on the matter.

[00:37:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Final answer.

[00:37:47] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I think so.

[00:37:48] Lindsey Dinneen: You know what? I really liked that. I like that you, yeah, push yourself to explore a little bit further, but, and I think, I think that's a good way to put it too, because sure, you like to have that information available to you, but you still have the choice, whether or not you really want to explore it or not. I mean, you could totally just view the work on its own and not care, like not read the program, not whatever, but having it there is nice for those of us who might want to know, learn a little bit more. So I kind of like where you went with that. Yeah, very good. 10 out of 10. Okay. Well, you know, first of all, again, Phil, thank you so very much for joining me tonight. This has been so much fun. I really appreciate it. And I, I love your unique perspective on storytelling in the arts and well in your, in your approach to making it broader, I think that's really important and, you know, kudos to you for doing what you do. But I would highly encourage those of you who are listening to also check out Phil's website and this upcoming show, because obviously it's going to be exciting, maybe uncomfortable, but in a good way. So yes, highly encourage you to do that. And just thank you so much, Phil, again. This has been a really fantastic chat and I really appreciate it. So thanks.

[00:39:12] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun.

[00:39:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Yes. All right. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:38] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 065 - Will Blaine

In today's episode, I welcome Will Blaine! He is an artist as well as the author and illustrator of the short story series, "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children," which feature common scenarios of adventures kids get themselves in, such a getting lost at a beach, or getting covered in jam while making themselves breakfast. Will's interview is funny, inspirational, and insightful, and he shares about all the twists and turns his artistic journey has taken him so far. (Fun fact: the cover image to this episode is Will's company's logo!)

 

Get in touch with Will Blaine: www.instagram.com/curiousmindofwill 

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Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 65 - Will Blaine

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Will Blaine. He is an artist as well as the author and illustrator of the short story series, "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children," which I am so excited to find out what that means. So I am just delighted to have you here. Will, thank you so much for being here. I definitely appreciate it. Can't wait to chat with you about arts.

[00:02:42] Will Blaine: Thank you. It's a pleasure.

[00:02:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you involved in art in the first place? A little bit about your life journey, if you're okay with that.

[00:02:55] Will Blaine: Yeah, of course. I, I've always been kind of an, an artist and an author. I have always done that since I was a kid and I don't know why, after I break out in my twenties and everything like that, I I don't know. I didn't do it as much, but I always told stories to my, to my daughter. And, and I think this is kind of my-- if anybody knows me, they know this is true about it-- when I read my daughter books. When she was younger, I never actually read the words. I just  made up stories as it went along. And the same went for like games, my daughter to this day, she still gets on me because she goes, "You used to cheat at Candy Land." When she was little, she didn't understand what the rules were, so I just made them up as I went along because she didn't know them anyway. So I was just kind of having fun with her, just time, you know, spending time with my daughter and everything. And she, she was about five years old and she realized that I was not following the rules, when she learned to read and understood how the game works. She's like, "Hey, that's cheating!" And I've never lived it down. So I've always just kind of made up stories and, and liked drawing and, and things like that, pretty much all my life. My grandfather was an artist. And he was mostly doing landscapes and he would draw people's farms and things like that. And I think it probably had a little bit of an influence on me as to what I would like to do when I grew up as, as far as my art is concerned.

[00:04:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So kind of having had the opportunity to grow up around it sounds like it was inspiring to you because you liked what you saw and you were like, "Oh, maybe I could do this too." Did he ever have a hand in helping teach you any of, of what he had learned himself? Or did you learn through others?

[00:04:26] Will Blaine: Yeah, he didn't really have that much of an influence on me. Though he did, he did give me lessons a few times, but it was mostly, mostly on my own that, that I've been doing this, the artwork. And I think that I, I need a lot more practice for sure that. Very happy with doing what I'm doing. It's just turned out pretty, pretty well. And I, I like it myself, if nobody else does, at least I do.

[00:04:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and there's a lot of value to that, for sure. I was talking recently with somebody on the show who was talking about just creating art for art's sake for yourself. And it doesn't have to be shown to anyone. I mean, if it is, that's great, but if it's not, that's fine too. It's just about the process of creating and allowing yourself that outlet and you know, it, it just in the end it's, it's that. That's what matters.

[00:05:10] Will Blaine: Yeah. And it's been, it's very therapeutic in many ways too. I mean, it's just, it has a calming effect and, it's a form of expression an outlet that most people don't take advantage of. I think anybody can become an artist really. I mean, just because you don't think that you can draw up a particular thing doesn't mean that you can't draw. You know, I think with a little like practice and some lessons, I think anyone can be a pretty decent artist.

[00:05:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I agree. And I think like, I really like what you said about it. It's maybe not so much about that particular thing. So me, for instance, if I were to sit down at a table and look at this bowl of fruit and try to recreate it through a painting, I would fail miserably. And I know that because I've tried and I'm so bad. But if I just sit down and create like whimsical, sort of fun art work that I do paint that's just like my imagination coming to life, I can totally do that, but yeah. Yeah. All about finding the right medium for you, I think. Or the right expression. Yeah. I love that.

[00:06:09] Will Blaine: Right.

[00:06:10]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. So, okay. I have to find out all the things about your, your book series, because that just sounds like so much fun. So tell me about that.

[00:06:19] Will Blaine: Yeah. So the wildly "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children" book series is about all of the things that parents do not want their children to do, but all children do invariably. So my first book is called "Vlad and the Vast Beach" is a little boy, about a little boy that runs wanders away from his mother during the day at the beach. The second story of my series is called "Sticky Fingers from Jam." It's about a little boy that wakes up early in the morning and decides to make himself breakfast, and all these are based kind of loosely on my own experiences in life. So "Vlad and the Vast Beach" is based on my experiences going to New York City in the Brighton Beach area.

[00:06:56] I don't know if you know anything about Brighton Beach, but Brighton Beach is an area of New York where everything is Russian. All the people are Russian. All the signs are Russian, the restaurants are Russian, the stores are Russian. Everything's Russian.  So my wife and I speak Russian incidentally, so we would, we would go there a few times a year, take a walk along the boardwalk and walk to Coney Island in the evenings. And there would always be people out on the beach, you know, you know, having a good time. And that's where I got the idea for " Vlad and the Vast Beach," having that urban beach setting and having, having Vlad wander off and have a little adventure on his own.

[00:07:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Okay. So how many books have you published so far?

[00:07:32]Will Blaine:  I've only published two, I've written probably 10 or 12, but I haven't published them. And my first two books are not illustrated. I just put them out there just because most people were, a lot of people were saying, "Hey, I want a copy of this." And I got tired, tired of emailing people. So I put it on Amazon and you know, it's just selling decently, but yeah,  my next story that's coming out is called "The Glorious Gizzard of Roz." It's about a little chicken and it will be fully illustrated. So I look forward to that. That's going to be the first time that I've had a fully illustrated book.

[00:08:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Great! That's exciting. And so I'm curious to know, so your background in creating art and drawing and all those kinds of things obviously has prepared you for this now, but you know, it's interesting to me that that has been something that you've kind of developed into an illustrator role. How is, you know, creating just art for you different than creating art for your own story? Do you find yourself just thoroughly enjoying the process? Are you more critical or?

[00:08:37] Will Blaine: I think it's, it's more restrictive. Once you write the story and you're writing illustration or drawing illustrations for it, you're limited in scope as to what you're going to draw to some extent, because of the story. You have to follow the storyline. If you're just, you know, get my digital notebook out or something like that and start drawing something, I can draw anything I want to. That's one thing that I really appreciate about art. Anything can be art, it doesn't have to be fancy, or it doesn't have to be a particular thing necessarily. It could just be a series of shapes or colors. And, you know, I mean, not that it is all the time, it's usually I do draw something, but it doesn't have to be. You know, just to have a good balance of light and dark and color and, and, and space is-- there's a lot of beauty in that.

[00:09:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was, oh gosh, I think I was reading something. Oh, what was it? Anyway, the author was talking about how shadows bring out the light and you need the shadows in order to express the light that's that's there too. And how that's just can be such a beautiful metaphor for life. You know, it's not-- yeah, the darkness maybe isn't what we would choose, but it is what gives light it's radiance. And there's, there's beauty in that contrast too. That's cool.

[00:09:53]Will Blaine: Something that I noticed lately in some of my art is the use of blank space. What you don't draw, it says a lot more than what you do draw. I've just come to that conclusion more recently in that I've always thought it was kind of ridiculous when people, people said, "Oh, it's on the page already. And it just, it just came to me." That I always thought that was kind of ridiculous. But if you, if you think about it in a way that you look at where the blank spots are as opposed to what is drawn on the page, I liked that, I liked that concept. It's, it seems more valid than anything that I've actually put down with my pen or a stylus or whatever. And I'm, I'm learning to appreciate not having to fill up every little area of the, of the canvas.

[00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I, I am right there with you, I think, especially... So you know, as a, as a dancer and choreographer-- so I've come at it from a little bit of a different artistic perspective-- but I've always believed in the power of stillness, because I think when used well, sort of like your blank space idea, it actually gives a lot more meaning and credence to what's happening in the movement or in the painting or whatever it is because it allows the audience or the, the viewer to take a little bit of a breather and to absorb better. Yeah.

[00:11:13] Will Blaine: Yeah. And I think that applies to music also. I don't think we appreciate times in songs where there's nothing happening. You know, not that you want us to listen to total silence obviously, but there has to be an intermittent to the note. There's, there's notes and then there's, there's times in which there aren't many notes. So, you know, those are just as important as the spaces or is it just as important as the sound?

[00:11:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, okay. So I know you are also now illustrating coloring books. I'd love to hear more about that too.

[00:11:45] Will Blaine: Yeah, I was, it was kind of a shock to me. I didn't know that, that I didn't really plan on doing this, but I was illustrating my second, er, no, it was my first book. I'm going back to "Vlad and the Vast Beach" and I'm going to illustrate it for a future edition. It's going to be fully illustrated, but I was, I was doing some of the drawings and I was developing one of the characters. His name is Carl. He's a seagull. And I had posted it on my Instagram account and I was using this app that allows you to do like a whiteboard animation so people can follow what you're drawing. And, and I got a lot of positive feedback about that. You know, people, people seem to like it. So I started putting a few things on there. So I did a few of those drawings. And then I, I was just doodling one day and in the application and it looked to me like one of those adult coloring books. You see them at the store all the time, you know, for people that they are adults.

[00:12:38] And they're a little more complex than just a basic cartoon that you would color as a kid. And this, this art started looking like that. And I was like, you know what? I bet I could write and, and draw an entire coloring book. So I started just tinkering around with different things and, and now I've got 27 drawings toward a coloring book and they're just rich, random shapes. And I don't know what the representations of different things that I think using shapes and, and I don't know. I think it's artistic and, and fun. And I've, I've had people tell me that it's just therapeutic just to watch the whiteboard animations on, on my Instagram account. You know, people just like watching things appear from blank space. You know, it's enjoyable for me. It's something that I think is pretty easy. It allows me to express myself. It's, it is kind of therapeutic for the artist as well as the person that's enjoying.

[00:13:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. Well, and I know, especially, I think coloring books have gained more popularity lately because, like we were talking about briefly before we even started recording, it's kind of a trend now, even for adults to have coloring books, but you know, it's, it's so fun. It's, it's fun, especially if you don't consider yourself to be a fine artist and you just enjoy kind of coloring in the already  established lines. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm that way. So I mean, I'm curious, from your own experience or your own opinion, why do you think coloring books resonate so well with people as a, as a hobby?

[00:14:16] Will Blaine: I think it's, it's kind of like a mindless activity. It doesn't take a lot of effort. And I think, I think it's a way of relaxing. I think it's the same reason why people watch television. You sit there and it just, it takes minimal effort. You don't have to think about anything particularly. And, you know, I, I think when you have, you know, if you use markers or crayons, it doesn't matter. I think that the colors are impactful on your psyche, I think. I work on my, in my day job, I'm a process engineer for a large company. We will build the big trucks and some areas of the factory are very dark and there's not much color. And in other areas of the factory are bright and lit and shiny. And, and I think people are in much better moods typically in the areas that have color, that have light. And I think that's the same with coloring. You have those colors, you have those brightness, it allows you to express yourself if by no other reason or way, by what colors you choose. You can, you can make a coloring sheet a gray dismal mess, or you can make it flourish.

[00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you brought up an interesting thing that I'm curious to ask you more about. You know, you mentioned having a day job, and I think there are a lot of us out there that have their day jobs in addition to pursuing their art. What advice do you have for somebody who maybe either feels like they don't have enough time to devote to their art or how, how do you balance that? And what advice do you have for someone who's interested in that?

[00:15:50]Will Blaine: I think whatever you choose to do, you have to buy out the time from something else. You know, I I've, I'm basically an efficiency expert at my job, my day job. So I am very much into efficiency type things. So I do, I did a time study on my life and I was looking at things, like how much time do I spend watching television each week? How much time do I spend checking email? How much time do I spend playing a game on my phone? Or how much time do I spend exercising? And I started looking at all these things and I was like, "Wow, is that how I want to spend, spend my life?" You know, if I'm, if I'm sitting down and literally, it's not uncommon for people to watch, you know, five or six hours of television every day. You know, you multiply that times a week and there's your time. You have, you have plenty of time. Yeah, it's just that you have to buy the time out from something else. If you want to spend your life watching television, that's your choice. But if you think that you might want to be an artist, that's, that's your practice time right there too, you know?

[00:16:52] And, and anymore, I, for several years now, I don't think I've watched very much television at all. In fact, I don't have, I don't have cable or anything like that. We have like a regular antenna that picks up several stations, but even then I don't watch it that much. I just, for the most part, I think it's kind of boring. I don't really, I couldn't even tell you who is a famous person on television right now. I don't, I just don't know their names. I haven't watched television in that long. So it's a choice. I think people can choose to do what they want to. And I think many people just get sucked into a routine or a rut and you know, they don't make the choice to be an artist or to be an author or to be a musician or a, or a choreographer or whatever. Yeah. We choose how to spend our life and you just have to really do a a gut check and just take a look at your life. Go around with a stopwatch and see how much time you spend doing different activities in your life. You'd be surprised.

[00:17:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think that's fantastic advice and really resonates, I'm sure, with a lot of people, because you're right-- it's, it's not that you don't have the time. You just spend it in a different way. So it's just a matter of prioritizing. I mean, what do you want to do with your life? Like you said, do you, do you want to just watch TV? And if so, you know, that's, that's your choice, but if you're trying to carve out time, that's a great place to start. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you talked earlier about, you know, storytelling and making up rules as you go along with your daughter and I'm, I'm curious, how much has your daughter influenced the work that you do as an artist?

[00:18:30]Will Blaine: I think that we're very much an influence on each other. In fact, she, she tells me that I resonate in her head all the time, just from different things that I told her growing up and advice that I'd given and things like that. But she also influenced me a great deal as well. You know, it instilled in me a love for reading, for instance. Read her, read her a story every night before she went to bed and I instilled in her a love of reading and really helped along with her education as well. But it also helps you. The more you read, the more you will be able to write. I, I really believe that. And it's the same, same way with art. I think the more that you're involved in activities and, and drawing and, and other artistic expression, I think the more likely the more inspired you'll be, and the more likely you will be.

[00:19:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what is the-- and I know this is kind of a far reaching question-- but what does the future look like to you? Are you planning to continue publishing and, you know, creating new books and illustrations and maybe coloring books? Or do you, do you have other things on the horizon as well?

[00:19:40] Will Blaine: I, I do. I have, I have so many ideas. It's just, it's not enough life left to accomplish everything, all the ideas that I already have. So yes, I will continue writing. I've, I've got lots of ideas for books. I've I would like to write a book of memoirs of my travels. Like right before the pandemic, I spent a month in Europe, we went to Germany and Switzerland, Italy and Croatia, and really enjoyed ourselves. There's lots of experiences that I've, I'd love to write about, lots of situations I've found myself in, in life that were kind of unique that would, each of those would make a story themselves. And of course, I've got a lot more kid stories that I've already written that I just haven't published yet. And then I've got a lot more to that. I'm currently writing, I think, every, every day that I walk around and I see something, I write a story about it. It's, it's seems like something that I don't know if it comes naturally to me, but it's, it's pretty easy for me and I like doing it. So I think it's something that I'm probably going to continue to, to to write.

[00:20:35] My wife and I were at, went to a park several months ago, and we were taking a walk due to the COVID, you know, was trying to keep isolated from, and as well as get our exercise. And we saw this large oak tree that had tipped over and she's, my wife was kind of telling me, I don't know, teasing me a little bit. And she was like, "Do you think you can write a story about that?" You know, 'cause it just says this old oak tree that's leaning over. And I actually did write a story about it. It was called "Gary the Great." It's about a little woodpecker that thinks that he has knocked this tree down and he gets a little bit of arrogance in his, in his life, because he thinks that he's done this great thing, but it's a fun story. And all of my stories always have a lesson at the end of it, too, for kids as well.

[00:21:15]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That sounds so, so fun. I really-- yes, that, that, that resonates with me. Like those kinds of things. Oh, fantastic. Well, yeah, so I'm sure that, you know, you have tons and tons of stories to share, but I wonder if there are a couple that really stand out to you as either maybe witnessing someone interact with your own art that was really impactful, or you participating in somebody else's art, and it was just this moment to remember because it was impactful?

[00:21:51] Will Blaine: I think life experiences are very impactful. And sometimes you don't know how to express them at the time. And I, and I'll, I'll give an example. And my second story is called "Sticky Fingers from Jam." And it's about a little boy that gets up early in the morning and makes himself breakfast. And that was actually inspired by my cousin. So I was raised on a 120 acre farm in, in rural West Virginia. And my chores involve getting up at six o'clock in the morning, going out to the barn and feeding the animals, which involve me walking past my uncle's house. So it was six o'clock in the morning. And my cousin emerged from a cornfield and he was probably three years old at the time, which would have made me around eight or nine years old at the time. And he was completely naked. And he was covered in butter and sugar from head to toe, absolutely covered. And I didn't think anything of it at the time, I thought nothing of it. And he proceeds to tell me that he's made himself breakfast.

[00:22:50] And you know, I'm looking back, you know, when I turned like 40 years old, I was thinking to myself about that situation, you know, how you reflect on your life sometimes. And I was thinking to myself, his house must have been covered in sugar, that his parents probably had ants for years. I mean, if you had that much sugar on you, how much did you get all over the kitchen and your bedroom and where, wherever else you walked before you made your way out of the house completely. But, but those, those things are impactful, you know? And sometimes, sometimes you just take, it takes you a while to be able to express those things. So I wasn't, you know, I was, I was well into adulthood before I even thought about that again, those experiences. And at that point, you know, I could look back with the experiences that I've had in my life and what would have happened if it was my child in that situation. And I was able to make a story of, formulate the story out of it and that, that's what creates the art. And not only the, you know, the visions that you have for the work that you're going to do as an artistically, but also the, and the authorship, how you're going to write about it and, and how you're emotionally going to interact with the situation.

[00:23:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. Well, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who are going to be super curious to read those awesome books that you're writing and, you know, follow your artistic journey. Is there a way for them to do that?

[00:24:14] Will Blaine: They certainly can. If you want to see what I'm doing just day to day, I typically will post at least once a week on Instagram. It's Curious Mind of Will. That's my company's name. C U R I O U S M I N D. And you can also look for me on Facebook. I just use my personal account as Will Blaine, and I think I have the Curious Mind of Will there as well. I don't post to that as much, but if you want to, if you want to take a look at my books and stuff like that, they're on Amazon. You can, you can look me up. Will Blaine. Just type that in there. And you can type the titles of my two books that I have published so far. That's "Vlad and the Vast Beach," " Sticky Fingers from Jam." Those are the two that are published so far. Coming soon is going to be "The Glorious Gizzard of Roz."

[00:24:52] I think that's, this is my favorite book by far, this far. I guarantee you that you won't understand what the story's about until the very last word, even adults. And it's, it makes everything tied together. Yeah. So that's one of the, one of my favorite stories that I've written. And I really, really enjoy reading that to kids. I, I read at story times and different things like that too for, you know, like libraries and things like that. And I really enjoy the reaction when I want to have a, you know, like a Facebook live or a story time or anything like that. The kids, kids love that story.

[00:25:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah. I'm personally excited to read those books because they sound awesome and I can't wait to continue following what you do 'cause that's right up my alley too. So yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay that.

[00:25:46] Will Blaine: Absolutely, let's go..

[00:25:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:52]Will Blaine: I think that, that art is tied up in an emotional expression, for me anyway. I think many people do art for different things, but I think it is always tied up with the emotion that you're feeling. It's very, it's very deeply emotional, whatever it is and that's, and that's why I don't think that art has to be anything particular. You don't have to draw a tree or a bush or a person, you know, you can just-- you'll see how the colors blend, and you can see how the shapes go together. You can see what space there is and, you know, whatever you're feeling that day, it affects what you're going to put down on that page. And it that's, that's, that's so fundamental to what art is. I think that defines what it is.

[00:26:36]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:41]Will Blaine: I know that artists do different things. I think that many artists like to make political statements and, and things like that, but I, I don't think that's the most important rule or role. I think that that artists should do it for themselves primarily. I, I've, I've seen people that are artists that want to become famous. I don't particularly want that myself. I, I mean, I don't, I never desired to be famous. I just like entertaining kids, basically. But I think that a person needs to do it as a, as a way of expressing themselves. That's the most important thing above everything else.

[00:27:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question, and I will define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a title or program notes or the inspiration. Versus an artist who does not, who puts their work out into the world and doesn't provide context so it's left solely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will.

[00:27:48] Will Blaine: Well, I going to say that depends. And the reason I say that primarily I liked the, to know what is beyond behind the artist and what they've done. But I've seen a lot of art that I had no idea what it was or who drew it or, or whatever, and I've still liked it. So I think there's room for both, but at personally, I, I prefer to get some background. It helps me to understand what's going on in your mind, and it helps you to help me to understand the emotions behind the art. That's really the fundamental part of it.

[00:28:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much for being here and chatting art with me, Will, I really appreciate it. I'm very excited about what you're doing and what you're bringing to the world. I think that obviously you bring a lot of fun and joy to kiddos, but also to adults, I'm sure, who are enjoying these stories as well. And I'm excited for the, this new coloring book to emerge and all those different things. So just thank you for sharing your art with the world. I think that's really important and I'm glad you're doing it. And, seriously, thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun.

[00:29:02] Will Blaine: Yeah. And I enjoy your format too. And I like getting out there and being able to be on, on shows like this, and you're doing a great service for the community and for the world. I, I really appreciate being on here and you're doing a great job.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you! I really appreciate that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I highly encourage you to check out Will's , go onto Amazon, buy those books, follow him on Instagram so you can kind of keep updated with all these new, exciting endeavors that he's embarking on. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:43] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:29:53]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 064 - Sally Brown

In today's episode, I welcome Sally Brown! Sally is a feminist, artist, curator, and writer, who strives to always elevate and amplify women artists and their work. She shares about her journey from art reviewer and museum curator to embracing her own unique body print artwork, and what that has taught her about being a mother, and about women in general. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Sally!)

 

Get in touch with Sally Brown: www.instagram.com/sallery_art | https://linktr.ee/sallery_art

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Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 64 - Sally Brown

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of our Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sally Brown. She is a feminist, artist, curator and writer, and I'm so excited to dive into all the different things that she does and has dabbled in and is proficient in. And I just can't wait to have a conversation about art with you, Sally. So thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.

[00:02:40] Sally Brown: Well, thanks for having me. It's an honor. I'm excited.

[00:02:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I would love if you would share maybe a little bit about your background, what got you into all the different, cool things that you're doing and maybe what you're up to these days.

[00:02:55] Sally Brown: Yeah. Thank you. Well, it's like, how far back do I go? I was a fashion design major in undergrad before I took a drawing class and fell in love with it and just decided to be an art major. And when I graduated from undergrad though, I thought, "Oh, there's too many artists. I, I don't need to put my, my art out there." So I went into working for the galleries and museums doing fundraising and administration. And I kind of got burnt out. Then I had my babies and I kinda missed, you know, missed making art, missed being in the arts. So I started writing arts reviews for the local paper, and I also started modeling for art classes. Kind of an interesting way to get back into the arts, but that kind of led me to get more confidence to use my voice in an artistic way. And you know, if people don't buy it or see it, it doesn't matter, but I still, I had to create, so I got back into drawing and painting that way around, I dunno, 30.

[00:03:53] And I also kind of noticed I felt bad as a mom. Like I felt selfish for taking time to make art and, and in that weird art and I mean, self portraits, you know, some, some nude work and some body prints. And I was feeling like I had to have a reason for that. So I started interviewing women artists about their work and their background. And I found several local in Omaha. This is in Omaha where I'm mostly from, who are making this like unabashedly amazing figurative feminist work. And they were moms or they weren't moms, but they were doing it and they weren't afraid. And that is how I started my blog Les Femmes Folles, which means wild women in French, and I also started curating a series of exhibitions featuring women artists around the body, and in Omaha, and they're very popular. They're still popular. People could hardly get to the door. It was so exciting. So it really kind of boosted my confidence, not only to make my own work and share my voice and, and be okay with that as a mom and as a, as a woman.

[00:04:59] And also just looking to other artists, supporting other women artists, and seeing, respecting their voice in all the different ways via curating and my blog and revealing. I ended up having a a local weekly column in the paper about the arts which I greatly enjoyed. And so yeah, I started doing these body prints. I saw Yves Klein's body prints. He's modernist, mid 20th century, who did performances with women. He wore a full black suit and he directed nude women to paint on their bodies and do these body prints. And I knew of his work, but when I saw his work in DC a couple of years ago, maybe like 10 years ago, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I love this, but I have to do it." I have to be the director of the model of the artists. And I want to do it in all colors. Yves Klein did blue. I wanted to do all the colors. So that's when I started my series of body prints, and I integrated my interviews with women artists. And then my body prints.

[00:05:58] So I took like excerpts about being a woman artist or being mother artists, and I scripted them on my body prints. And so I did a series of-- my first series was "A Voice" and that was from my first series of interviews. My second series, after my first show, I noticed a lot of people asked me about being a mother and doing it, nude work. And I thought it was interesting because nobody was asking me about the work. They're asking me what my kids think, what, what are their friends think? And they see me nude and all these questions about being a mom, rather than like asking me about the work and my interviews. So my next series was about that. It was called "What Will Her Kids Think?" and I did a lot of research on mother artists and pulled quotes from both mother artists and artists about their moms, and I integrated them into my body prints.

[00:06:48] And I also started a collaborative series of drawings with my kids. When they were 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, they would make hundreds of drawings and paintings every week. And I would give some to relatives and I would keep some for keepsakes and I would recycle some. And then I thought, "Well, why don't I just play with it?" So I started doing a series of some portraits on their childhood paintings and drawings, abstract, which I continue today. I still, I use some of their homework and my body prints today are a series inspired by my master's study. My second master's degree is in art history and I focused on feminist artists. So part of the reason that I feature, I attribute feminist artists is so that I can learn about, I'm forcing myself to learn about them 'cause you don't really learn about them in main art history courses. So I've been doing my own research. I'm learning about them and then also put their names in the titles.

[00:07:45] So if somebody sees my work and they're like, "Oh, tribute to Hannah Hawkes. Who's that?" they might go look and find out about her. So right now I'm continuing my feminist tribute body prints. I'm also doing some feminist tribute drawings where I have a self portrait and a mini reproduction of a feminist artwork in the background. And I'm also, I just curated a show, Feminist Connect, with 42 international artists work co-curated with Leslie Sotomayer and all of the artwork is inspired by another feminist artist. So that's really kind of a grounding theme throughout all of my writing and curating and artwork. Yeah. So that was a long answer to your question.

[00:08:24] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. No, it's great. It's really helpful to, to get some background and, and explore a little bit more about, you know yeah, what led you to what you're doing right now. So I really appreciate that. And I'm, I'm curious because, you know, feminists can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. So I'm wondering how you like to interpret that in terms of yourself being an artist and in terms of the women that you are highlighting and trying to to honor through your work. What, what do you, what does feminist mean to you in that context?

[00:08:59] Sally Brown: It means supporting other women. I mean equality, you know, someday at the very base. But to me, feminist artwork is supporting other women and youth and exploring our experiences as women, because we have been marginalized and obliterated from history and art history and our perspectives just haven't been known. So it's so important for women's stories and perspectives to be told. So even like I'll feature artists on my website and in my exhibitions that, you know, consider themselves not a feminist or like, you know, Louise Bourgeois said she never wanted to be looked at as you know a feminist artist. That's okay. I still love Louise Bourgeois. I still-- artists that consider themselves not a feminist 'cause that's, you know, that's their perspective. That's-- but mine is very broad.

[00:09:45]When I was in graduate school, I, from my art history degree, I also got a degree in feminist studies and it was so interesting.  The high element of what feminism can mean? It can mean some very extreme things, but I look at it very broadly. I see them, the word "woman" very broadly. People will ask me, you know, for my blog, "Well, I'm nonbinary, can I be on your blog?" And I'm like, oh, I consider women to be very broad. I like to use the word woman, not a lot of people do in feminist theory, but I think that it's an important word because I don't want us to go back to anonymous. And so yeah, I see it very broadly. I see it as lifting women's perspectives up and positively. I'm not a deconstructionist. I'm not a critic. Those, that's great, those feminists who do that. That's, I'm appreciative of that, but that's not, that's not what I do.

[00:10:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure!

[00:10:42] Sally Brown: If that makes sense.

[00:10:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It's, it's helpful to just-- because it's such a broad term, like you were saying, it's, it's nice to have a little bit of context for the work that you're trying to do. And I think that's really cool what you're trying to do in, in elevating women's work, whether or not they consider themselves to be a feminist. I think that's a really admirable thing. It's not, it's not that you're ignoring what they're saying or anything like that. It's just saying that they have a place at the table too. And that's important too. Yeah. Which I really like. So I'm curious because I, I'm not a hundred percent particularly familiar with the work of sort of body prints, I think is what you were referring to. So do you mind explaining a little bit more of sort of the process of that and how that kind of comes together?

[00:11:30] Sally Brown: Sure. Yeah, it's, it's a very personal intimate process, but I do document it. I do record it and take pictures. Yeah, so it's as simple as that. I put down a big sheet in my living room and I pick out my paper and I pick out what kind of mood I'm in for the colors. The other day I did pinks and purples and yellows and reds. I was feeling very springy. And I will just paint either with a paint brush or with my hands, paint brush usually, just onto my torso. Most of mine are my torso or my side. And then I'll do just like a pushup, like on the canvas. And it's just more about the abstract image and the, the moment, you know rather than the composition.  The, one of the points is that, you know, women's bodies are so scrutinized and like we're supposed to be a certain way and like all these things and, you know, in society and media. And so one of the ways that I kind of work through that is by abstracting my body. So this is what it looks like, but then you put it, use it as a brush. You put it on paper and it's just this kind of beautiful abstract image. So it's, it's kind of objectifying the body in like a-- I don't know-- an expressive and backwards objectifying way, if that makes any sense.

[00:12:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, really cool. Okay. And so, you know, you talked a lot about it, the sort of aspect of motherhood, and it was really intriguing to me and I really think it speaks to our culture. But you know, you, you mentioned that a lot of people were asking you about being a mother and not about the work itself. And I think, again, that that's very indicative of the way our culture sort of is in general towards women. So I'm, I'm curious, you had mentioned, you know, you were, you did a lot of research on, on mothers who were also artists, and I'm wondering what the common themes that emerged were. I mean, what, how did they, how did they interpret it and how did you end up interpreting it? I don't mean it to say it in in terms of reconciling, so to speak, but, but because culture has sort of asked you to reconcile it, I'm curious how you've sort of developed that for yourself.

[00:13:49]Sally Brown: Yeah, you kind of just do it. There was a poem that I came across and ah, I think her name was Amy Shanto? It was "mothers cannot become artists because they already are." And that just like totally hit home. Like, that's what it felt like people were saying. That's what I felt like before I was even making art. I'm like, I can't make art, like the kids are my art. And then that's how people responded. So, I mean, Sally Mann, same thing, Alice Neel, like it's just the same story throughout the times. People just did not want mothers to be artists. And I remember in an undergrad, my, my, one of my professors, my favorite professor in fact said, "You cannot be a mother who'd be an artist." This was 1999. So, I mean, it's just all over. You just have to do it. My mentor, Wanda Ewing, was just, she was not a mother, but she was very familiar with people putting her work down or thinking that, you know, you don't have to do art.

[00:14:48] I mean, mother artists, yes. But also women artists and women, artists of color in general, like our perspectives are just not out there and it's sometimes surprising and shocking to see them because of the history of our perspectives not being out there. So she just said, "You got to just do it, even if it sits in your basement, even if nobody sees it, you just got to do it." And so that's kind of what I do. I'll get bad comments. Some people don't like it, some don't approve and even in my family and, but it's just like, if I don't do it and then I feel like something's missing. And I think expressing myself is an important thing. I think that everybody needs to express themselves. And I think what I'm, what I'm doing is actually a beautiful. I think the woman's body is, is beautiful. I don't think that's part of my statement and people shouldn't be afraid of it. So I think that what I'm doing, even if it's really small and nobody sees it is important.

[00:15:45] I think my kids will see that someday. And what I love is that they're not afraid of it. They have seen my art like forever. They don't question it. I remember one of my kids' friends was over once and they were like, "Why do you, why is there like a painting of a nude woman on your wall?" And like my kid's just like, "I don't know, it's just normal, you know?" So, so yeah, I think it's a good thing and throughout all my research, I pretty much found that it was just the same story. So we just got to keep doing it and people will appreciate it or not just like any other art. But I do think that the, the motherhood perspective is, is so important. And so yeah.

[00:16:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And I, and I think that that's just such a, I'm glad that you address it because I think that that is important. And I really do like what you were saying of, you know, it's, it's important to create and even if it just sits in your basement, it's, you've, you've still gotten to participate in that art creation process, which is healing and it's beneficial and it's inspiring. So yeah, kudos to you for, for doing that and, and including your kids too. And, and speaking of that, you had sort of mentioned, you know, including your kids in various artwork projects. And so I'm curious what that has kind of looked like for you and for them and sort of, how has their work influenced your own, maybe?

[00:17:07]Sally Brown: Oh yeah. Well, you know, when you're 2, 3, 4, 5, you don't think about what, you know, like, "Oh, it doesn't look like a vase, or it doesn't look like a tree." It's just, you just create, you know? And so that's part of what I love about my body, but it's just about creating, it's just about the process. So that, and then that way it definitely has inspired me not to think so much about, you know, when I make my drawings, "Oh, this doesn't look like whatever," what it really looks, whatever, supposedly it, you know, it looks like. It's just, I'm making it. And that's, that's the important part about it is the expressive point about it. And then also as they've grown, my son loves to draw and he just draws line drawings. They're just like so intricate of these game, these gaming characters, but they're just line drawings and I just love his freedom and his cute little like awkward lines. 

[00:18:08] And so it just inspires me to just draw the way I draw and not-- again, not think about whether it, the depiction looks like the photograph or whatever, like it's supposed to quote, quote, supposed to And so yeah, they've inspired me in that way. And they've also helped me with my process. Like they've painted some backgrounds, they've done some like leaf prints with me. You know, they do some hand and feet prints, you know, inspired by my body prints and they'll tell me what they think they look like, which is interesting. So they'll see my body prints and they'll see something completely like, they'll see Mickey Mouse or something, and I'm like, that's so cool. Like, that's just the point. Like, I, I, I want you to see whatever you see. And so, yeah, they've, they've gotten really excited, yeah, about art. But sadly now they've almost gotten, art museum-ed out. Now it's like, "Oh, another art museum." That's okay. That's how I was too.

[00:19:06] Lindsey Dinneen: They'll come back around. It's all right. Yeah, I was the same way as a kid too. I mean, you could only take in so much, but then as an adult, it's fun to come back and see those things again and go, "Oh, okay." Yeah. I have a lot more-- I can, I can stand still for longer periods of time. We'll put it that way back. Oh, well, I love that. I love that, you know, it's freedom of expression. It's freedom of interpretation that you're gleaning from your kiddos and how that's, you know, helped you to maybe be a little bit freer in your own expression and interpretation. That's cool. That's really cool. And so, you know, I know that you also have, like, you mentioned having a column for a while, and so I'm curious, what all were you, were you critiquing, were you just talking about different art around the city or whatever? Or what, what was that column for you?

[00:19:58]Sally Brown: Yeah, it was all of that. I had mixed media, which was just kind of like, I don't know --the gossip art column, which was really fun. So I would say like, who's doing what or whatever. And then I also did critical reviews, which I continue to do. But yeah, I, The Reader was the name of the, the newspaper and that really launched me into interest, deeper interests which got me into my graduate studies and art history. And now I continue to do reviews, just freelance or independently, mostly of women, artists, or feminists art exhibits, or books of art by women. And so I really enjoy that. I enjoy the newspaper. The newspaper is my favorite because it's more loose and like kitschy and, you know, it's fast, so you gotta be fast. But when I do my academic critical reviews, it's a lot slower and more serious, but it's important. So important. So I do both.

[00:20:54] Then I do a little bit for my blog too. I started this series of, I turned 40 this year-- last year now-- but so I've been looking at feminist artists and what they did during their 40th year. So I've done a few blog posts on that. That's kind of fun. But yeah, I love, I love all aspects of art, like curating, writing and, and making. So my day job is, it's curating for the university here. So it's, it's a lot, but yet I love, I love it all. Like it all keeps me balanced. I can do one thing for a few minutes or whatever, and then switch to the other mode.

[00:21:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I love it too, because I think that speaks to a lot of artists' lives of sort of having their, their hands in a lot of different areas and sort of yeah, being immersed in art in many different ways and kind of switching from mode to mode to mode, but it's, it's all great because you're doing what you love, which is exciting. So, yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm curious if there are any stories in particular that kind of stand out to you as either somebody witnessing artwork that you created, or you witnessing somebody else's art, and you just had this moment that was inspirational or, or defining or something. It was just like a moment to remember.

[00:22:16]Sally Brown: Yeah, for sure. I feel like a lot of people would say this, but so one of the focuses of my master's thesis was Judy Chicago's "The Dinner Party." And it actually wasn't going to be. My focus was just going to be on feminist artists in general. But my one of my professors was like, "Well, you're going to New York to see "The Dinner Party," you know, this monumental feminist art. And I'm like, "Oh, but everybody knows 'The Dinner Party.'" Like whatever. When I went to see it the first time though, it was, it was amazing. When you go through art museums and history museums your whole life and much, my parents drove me to, and I've always gotten to do, and you see art by men, and then you see history of wars and political figures who are men. It's just so amazing to walk into an exhibit that is fully dedicated to women throughout Western history.

[00:23:13] And so it's this big dinner table triangle. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's in the Brooklyn museum now. It was made '76 to '79 by 400 volunteers. Judy Chicago led it and there's 39 place settings each dedicated to a woman in Western history and they're themed. There's ceramic plates and then there's a runner underneath each one. And then along with them, there is the floor, which has 999 more names of women in Western history. And then outside of there-- I could go on about this-- but basically there's the history of these women on panels and this history I did not know. Like it was amazing. I was, I was whatever, 30-- I'm 40 now-- and first time seeing this, I was like, "How do I not know this history?" And it was just mind blowing and it was beautiful and it was, it's all darkly lit. She hasn't darkly lit and the, the background of the table is mirrors. So you can see yourself to infinity and it's just, it's really inspiring. And of course there's critical feminist issues with it, but, but I, what I take away is the impact of women and how we need to recognize it and how it hasn't been recognized. So that was a huge part of inspiration moment of my artistic life.

[00:24:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, how cool. And yeah, that is something that I definitely would love to see in person, because I'm sure that the pictures do not do it justice as to the impact, you know, like most artwork, I suppose, but something like that-- that, and just the magnitude and, yeah, so much that we don't know that we're not taught that it's important. So. Very, very cool. Well, this has been awesome. And I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you, maybe view some of your own artwork, follow your journey, read your blog. Is there a way for them to do that?

[00:25:15]Sally Brown: Yeah, I would say the easiest is my Instagram, which is @sallery_art. So it's S A L L E R Y underscore art. So that's the best way. And then it has my link tree with all of my different, you know, websites and whatnot. So thank you so much. This has been really fun.

[00:25:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course! Good. Yes. And I do encourage everyone to check out her artwork. It's, it's exciting. It's unique. And it's also really inspiring and, and elevating, and I liked that, so, yes, absolutely. And I do like to ask my guests the same three questions if you're up for that.

[00:25:53] Sally Brown: Sure.

[00:25:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. Well, first of all how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:59]Sally Brown: My kids would be so annoyed. Art is everything. Art is the way to see.  I mean, if I was going to get particular, I would say it's something that is, it's expressed. But if you look at things in different ways, anything can be art. I don't know.

[00:26:14]Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, of course. Okay. And then, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:21]Sally Brown: I think to express themselves and make their voices heard because we're, we're documenting life in a creative way for history. So just continuing to do it and using their voice in different ways is just, is the most important role for them. So, yeah, just doing it.

[00:26:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of ties into your earlier theme of creating even just for your own sake. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and includes some context behind it, whether that's a title or show notes, or the inspiration, just something to give the audience a little bit of that context. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context. So it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:27:20]Sally Brown: Oh, I'm totally all about inclusive, because that's what brings people who aren't knowledgeable. That's what makes them scared is if they go into this white cube gallery and there's no context, they're like, "I don't get this. I don't, what is this? Like this isn't for me." But if you include like your title, like a little context, a little story, and that's what's very important about women artists as well, and documenting their, their story and their life to go along with their art. So I'm all about inclusive art, very much so. Accessibility to the max.

[00:27:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that, you know, because I, I agree too, because I think sometimes it can be super intimidating, especially if you haven't had the chance to experience a lot of art or you hadn't grown up around art. So I, I appreciate that you're wanting to include people who might not otherwise know how to appreciate it, or even try, you know? Well, again, thank you so very much, Sally, for being here today and for sharing your own journey and what you're up to these days and the way that you're empowering women and, and your own kiddos and, and all these different avenues that you express yourself through your art. I know you're making the world a better place, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

[00:28:39] Sally Brown: Aw, you are! Thank you for your wonderful work. Thank you, Lindsey.

[00:28:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. No, this is, this is my happy place. I love chatting art with people, so. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, definitely check out Sally's work, and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:05] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:29:14]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 063 - Patricia Karen Gagic

In today's episode, I welcome Patricia Karen Gagic! Patricia has had an absolutely amazing journey, getting to learn from some of the most highly-acclaimed artists in the world, including Monsieur Dragic, who mentored her in France for years. Now, she combines her love of fine arts and education in mindfulness to create Karmic Art Experiences for her clients. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Karen herself!)

 

Get in touch with Patricia Karen Gagic: www.patriciakarengagic.com | www.inspiredtoberewired.com | patgagic@gmail.com 

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

 

Episode 63 - Patricia Karen Gagic

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Patricia Karen Gagic. She is an international contemporary artist, an author, and the chief visionary officer of a nonprofit charity. And she has such an amazing background and wealth of experience in the arts. So I'm just so thrilled to be able to talk art with her today. Thank you so much for being here, Patricia.

[00:02:43] Patricia Karen Gagic: Oh, hi Lindsey. Oh my goodness. I'm thrilled to be here with you as well. Thank you so much. Amazing opportunity to talk art.

[00:02:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! And I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about yourself, maybe how you got started and, and take us from there.

[00:03:00]Patricia Karen Gagic: Sure. So I've been a always curious person and when I was very young, I thought, "Well, I want to be a fashion designer." And I think I was probably about three years old when I started actually drawing Elizabethan ball gowns. I had never seen one. I have no idea. My family could never figure out how I was drawing these, but there was something inside of me, just this intuitiveness that I just love drawing. And then that catapulted into, you know, me pen in hand wanting to do something different. But as I went through school, I realized I needed to have a career and my family really wanted me to do something more astounding with my life, even though I thought, "You know, having being an artist would be amazing." But you remember the old saying, "artists are poor," so it's not really going to be the way you're going to manage your life.

[00:03:58] So I, I did actually become involved in finance and I joined the bank and by the ripe old age of 25, I was probably one of the first female bank managers here in Canada. And I ruled with, you know, 92 employees and I sort of was climbing the ivory tower, but at the same time, I was still doing these more surrealistic ink drawings, sort of the Salvador Dali style. And, and then my world just, you know, kept going and going until I finally said, "You know, I want to be a painter." And that's the moment that I really fell in love with art, with actually with painting. So that, that's sort of the beginning of the journey.

[00:04:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. And so then you, so you had your career in finance, but you obviously still had this passion and wanting to continue doing art. So what led you to your next step in the journey?

[00:05:00] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, I thought, you know, not having any lessons in art, you know, in painting, that I should probably, yeah-- get myself involved in, you know, an art school. So there, we do have something here. It was McMaster University, and I enrolled myself in a program. And then the, there was the Burlington Cultural Center. And I had an opportunity to be actually taught a master program with an artist who is quite revered in Canada. His name is Tony Urquhart, and he was also teaching at the University of Guelph. So he had invited me one summer to come out, and as they were doing different tutorials and what, I was really feeling, you know, this, this place that I felt very comfortable in.

[00:05:48] And then it was not until 1999 when my husband decided that we should take a trip to France, and that was really the beginning of my, my most synchronistic part of my life. In order, there was a little apartment called the Sunflower Apartment and they always had an ad in the newspaper and my husband called the ad and he said, "You know, we'd like to go and stay." The gentleman who owned the home said, "Sure. Have your wife come and see me, pick up the keys, I'll share everything about it." So we did. And I, I went to his home and, "Oh my goodness." It was an art gallery basically. He had three floors of amazing paintings and said, "Would you like a tour?" I said, "Yes!"

[00:06:32] I see this painting up on the wall. And it's this very abstract white horse, which would've never really, you know, attracted me because my brain was more in the Jackson Pollock style. And but I looked at the name on the painting and it said, D R A G I C. And that's and I said, "Oh, Dragic," because it's a Serbian name, and this gentleman looked at me and he said, "No, no, no, no, no, this is Dragic, and he's in the top 10 percentile and a wonderful artist." And in that moment, I don't know why, but he said, "You know, and it's about three or four hours away from where you will be." and I went, "Okay, I want to meet this guy." Why I even thought that I have no idea, but it was just that auspicious moment.

[00:07:18] So we managed to get ourselves to France and made the phone call to le Monsieur Dragic, and he said no. He said, "No, I'm not seeing anybody. I'm not interested." And I was devastated and I went, "Oh my goodness. I've come all the way here. Now I'm on a mission. I definitely want to meet this, this man, this artist." And then finally we called back and he agreed. And we went to a little fifth century village in Provence. And when we met him, I sat in complete, absolute disbelief because when we got up into his Italia, he was showing me pictures of himself with, you know, very famous artists. And he had also exhibited in some of the most beautiful galleries in in the south of France in Avignon, as well as Grenoble and with Christo and Picasso. And he knew all of these people and he, he was part of that top 10%.

[00:08:22]So I, I was realizing that this man had made an entire life, his whole entire career to flawlessly dedicated, you know, to art and the study of art. And that inspired me. So as we were leaving back to our car, he said, and he does not speak English, only French and Serbian. So thank goodness I had some high school French, but my husband speaks Serbian, so we were able to communicate quite easily. And he said, he said three things. He said, "What does she want? Does she want fame? Does she want money? Or does she want the truth?" And you know, in that moment, the response of course was, "The truth." And he invited me to come back six months later for a week, and this is back in 1999.

[00:09:10] And he said, "But you're going to have to learn to speak some better French so we can really communicate and talk about the art." So I spent 38 hours over the course of those few months with a tutor trying to upgrade my French. And and then we arrived and that was the beginning of a long, 20 plus year relationship. I've been back and forth to France many, many, many, many times each year studying with him. And just could not even begin to tell you how precious that decision was and how, you know, accepting he was of me.

[00:09:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. What an amazing story. I love the way that, oh my goodness, all came together, but I just-- kudos to you for being so bold and brave and really putting yourself out there. I mean, that's, that's fantastic, but I, you know, my goodness just to see that painting and then go, I need to meet this person and, and be persistent about it and then. Wow. Good for you. And then what an amazing opportunity to learn from somebody like that. I mean, my jaw just sort of dropped when I, you were talking about, you know, all of the, basically his circle of influence and friends. I mean, you're learning from masters. Like how cool is that?

[00:10:36] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, the, the shock for me was that he, who he was, you know, at that time, you know, very revered and I thought to myself, there's just no way that I even, why should I fit in? And yet, you know, it's that very precise feeling that we just have, that intuition, and it sits in our gut that if I'm here, I meant to be here. And that's for me that karmic piece. And I also realized after, you know, the first week I was with him, he had never actually taken anyone under his wing. Bozart had invited him in Paris and other schools to teach and he had refused. He's actually quite an eccentric person. Of course he would have to be.

[00:11:23] And in that period of time, I was so humbled, but he really took me to a place of like tabula rasa, where it was like the blank slate. He basically said to me, "Patricia, you know, you might think you know what you know about art," but he said, "in order for me to actually give you the truth," he said, "and, and, and share all of this with you, you have to go to zero. And if you can't do that, if you're going to fight me along the way, it's not going to work." So I, no matter what anyone can say, when you are in front of a master at this level, you close your eyes and you say, "You got it." And I did that. I, I really forgot everything I knew. And what he did was he started teaching with the Matisse palette, which he had been taught himself. And this Mattise pallet, he had manipulated. So basically he had created his own version of it.

[00:12:27] But in order-- this is sort of interesting-- it was always Rembrandt paint oil is how we started and we never spoke about the colors. Everything was done by the number. So for example, if he wanted me to combine two particular colors, we would always say just the name, the number. So it'd be 231 and 156, or 568 and 231 and 107. So I, I had to really memorize the pallet by virtue of the numbers. And then we were able to, you know, to work. So it was, it was quite a challenge. I do recall going there one particular time, and he had an opening at one of the galleries and we went to the opening and then I spent a few days in the Italia with him and he had given me pastels. And I had never used pastels before. And he gave me a book where it was one of his books that was filled with his own, his own work.

[00:13:24] And he pointed to one of the paintings and he said, "Here are six crayons, I'm going to show you quickly how to use them with a razor blade and, and whatnot." And he said, "and here's the paper. And tomorrow I want you to bring me your version of this particular piece." I thought I was going to die. I mean, he gave me six crayons and I looked at all the colors and I thought there's no way under the sun. So I, we finished our work with him that day. And I started working and it was probably four or four-thirty in the morning when I finished the piece.

[00:13:59] I had pastels all over the table, the floor, it was a mess and we rolled it up and that morning went back to the Itali around nine o'clock and he opened it and looked at it and he closed it and put it aside. And I thought, "Oh my goodness," like I've done a terrible job. And I was really, really kind of upset because he didn't say anything. And at the end of the week, he actually gave it back to me and he handed it to me with basically saying he was so shocked that he couldn't tell the difference between his and mine. And, and that's when he made the decision that he wanted to continue teaching me. And then he asked me, that was probably the next trip there to write a --was either-- I can't remember how many thousand words or 2000 words could have been more-- in French.

[00:14:55] And he wanted me to write exactly what I felt art was about to give my own dissertation and, but I had to do it in French. And again, I stayed up the whole time. And I wrote every conceivable thing. I had dictionaries, I had whatever translation like couldn't think of in French, I was making up words and then I took it into him and of course he read it. And, but we, we are the very, very best of friends. And I just, you know, I just feel this beyond, just beyond a blessing in life. And I think about in 2012 or 13, he invited me to have an exhibition with him. The two of us, it was the only time I've exhibited with him in Seoul. And we had yeah, it was just one of those, you know, perfect moments in your life when you have exhibited with the master.

[00:15:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Those are incredible stories. Ah, I'm just enthralled. Oh my goodness. Okay. So I'm just really interested because you mentioned that, you know, he's never done this before and conceivably, maybe not since either. So I'm wondering, what about it, what about you was, do you think, was that he saw this spark that he was like, "yes, she has what it takes. Or she has the dedication." I mean, obviously you had already gone out of your way to meet him, but I'm just so curious because, you know, and obviously you have, you had talent, but I'm just wondering, like what spark was it that he saw, do you think?

[00:16:37] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah.

[00:16:38]Lindsey Dinneen:  I need to teach her.

[00:16:40] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. In fact, that's a really great question because about two years ago, of course, you know, I've, I have, I have won many awards for my work, and I've been recognized by different organizations and, and one of them had asked me to provide do I have anything like a, you know, a curation or anything from Monsieur Dragic? And I said, "No, I don't." So I called him and I said, "Would you mind writing something about, about me, about my work?" And he said, "Of course." So he did. And I, it, it, it was quite long. And the translation was basically that he had never met anybody who was, as they said, first of all, humble, but that had such a desire. And my passion exceeded everything around me. And he said just the way I, my temperament was one thing. He said, "you're, you're very wise and calm," but mostly he said "you were, you were so in love with the knowledge, just wanting to know what all the, you know, the bits and pieces of, of life are actually about that."

[00:17:51] He said it was a trigger for him in his own life. He changed his style once or twice while over the past few years. And he said he was, he was actually influenced by my career. And he also said, because I was female, believe it or not, he did have a, a group of psychiatrists that were also painters from Germany that used to come every year, every two years that he would host a few days and give them some support and lessons, but he'd never taken on one individual at any point in time for the full length. Pretty much half my life. So I think I was pretty humbled by, by his words, but more than anything, it was this passion. He said he, he felt it. And he, as the first trip and the second trip and the third trip and the fourth trip went by, I didn't provoke him. I, I didn't push any buttons. I was a sponge and that's what really, I think, fueled even more because then he started to introduce me-- oh, this is a good story. You'll like this, Lindsey.

[00:18:56] One, one of the visits he wanted me to meet Pierre Humbert. So in the south of France, of course, there's this click of, you know, the, the older artists now, many of them were famous at that time, but as history has gone on, they lose the profound. They don't always stay in that highest rank because there's new artists. There's gallery changes, you know, the history and the south of France changed in the art world, but certain people make certain choices. And he invited me to meet Pierre Humbert. Pierre Humbert was actually one of the gentlemen who, who entertained some of the other artists there, including Picasso.

[00:19:40] So when we went to his home, which was out in the, you know, in the beautiful Passage, we had a lunch and he said, "I want you to sit in this particular chair." And I did. And they were, he had another couple of artists with him that came to meet me as well. I was a bit of a novelty to everybody. And I remember sitting in the chair and the first thing Pierre Humbert says to me, he goes-- and they do not speak English. And he said, "Ah, Patricia," he said, "You know, this is  Picasso's chair. This is where his bum would sit and no one sits in this chair and you can sit now and you can feel all of the energy from Monsieur Picasso, but also open your eyes and look at the land." And it's, I mean, it is the Passage, it's rolling hills. And he said, "Do you see this particular, you know, area?" And I said, "Yes." And he goes, "This is wherePicasso\ those saw the blue nude, it was the rolling hills of this, this land that was the impetus for him. He, the inspiration."

[00:20:50] And so they sat and shared many stories that, you know, I can't repeat them because I don't remember them. And I, you know, they were just of the moment, a lot of jokes and songs and things that they would do. And then I went into the Italia of Pierre Humbert. And again, you're standing in it, you're standing in the source of history where A) it's a privilege, because I know there are probably, if there's a handful of people on the planet who have ever been stepped into those rare, iconic, you know, caves where all the genius exists, it's like I was in the most perfect think tank. I, I couldn't, I had to pinch myself to even imagine I was the person standing here. And that, you know, sharing that story just kind of makes me again, think about the influences.

[00:21:39] And I became really interested through Dragic's eyes with an artist by the name of Xiao Qi. And Xiao Qi passed away in 2013. He was born in Beijing and decided that he wanted to become an artist probably by the age of 10, but he went to Paris. And he studied in Paris and he actually traveled with some of the more, very, very like Pierre Soulages. He was friends with Pierre Soulages and he traveled to New York with him in the fifties or sixties. And that's when he changed from sort of a calligraphy to this abstract calligraphic work, and I, for the very first time that I ever saw his work, I was insanely smitten. I mean, I it's like you walked into, I could walk into his, his painting into the, into the words. So I've spent the last 20 years studying most of  work and trying myself to develop my style based on that influence. And that's where I'm at right now.

[00:22:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is just the coolest thing. I, I'm just so inspired and in love with these stories that just, wow. Wow. What amazing opportunities.  I'm so intrigued and, by sort of his methods and how he was teaching you and sort of, you know, even the stories, like 24 hour challenges or whatever you want to call them. But you know, like here's this, this somewhat impossible task, go do it. And you figured out a way to do that. And it's interesting to me, you know, you were, you were talking about in his own words, he was talking about, he appreciated your passion, your humility and everything. I'm sure so much of that is so, so much of that is the willingness on your part to also be a blank slate, because I think on some level that could have been challenging. You know, you, you've come in with a certain set of experience, but you were so willing to-- you put that aside just to learn from a master. And so, you know, also kudos to you because that, I mean, I guess that is humility, but, you know, but that could be hard. So I think that that's really commendable that you were just like...

[00:24:00] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. You know, Lindsey, we, we all have ego. I mean, that's, that's who we are. And unless, you know, you, you come to this world ego-less, which I don't think that's the case for, for us as humans. When you're dealing with somebody who has such a high IQ and his, his ability, I mean, he's a master chess player that he's, he's beyond well-read, speaks many languages, has studied every single artist living, dead. And, you know, just as an example, one day we were in the Italia, and he said, "Let's just do something a little bit different." And he, he opened up a book and I don't remember whose painting it was.  And he chose one portion of the painting that was sort of like a white area, like a white creamy area.

[00:24:54] And he said, "You know, you know how simple things look when you, when you examine them?" I said, "Yes." And he goes, "Let's try and create that color." And I said, "Like off the painting?" And he goes, "Yeah," he says, "You have the palette." He said, "Go to it." Lindsey, if you ever wanted to shoot your self sometimes... I spent from nine o'clock until noon. And I, he came in once or twice and it was "Zero," you know? And that's how he would speak to me. "Zero. No, Patricia." I was like, "Are you kidding me?" I've got titanium white. I've got to think white. I'm adding 568. I've got this. And I'm, I'm just going out of my mind, could not, I could not figure out how to create that particular color in that painting. We went to lunch, came back after two o'clock because we always take two hour lunches, and said, "Keep going."

[00:25:50] So I did. And it had to have been like from two to five o'clock. And I could not, I could not make that color. And I was every combination, a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that, a little less of this, a drop of black. It did not matter. I was, I was caught. And then at the end of that, he said to me, he goes, "You know," he said the greatest lesson that one has to learn is the true appreciation for the palette and the depth by which any, any artist chooses to make it their life effort. And we became, you know, the appreciation for every painting, for every aspect of every painting for the colors. You know, when you look at some of the paintings, you know, again, I'm in, this is the simple part of this. Like you look at Roscoe or you look at, you know, where there's only one or two, it appears that there are just a very, you know, one color painting. And yet in order for them to have created that particular color, the complexity, the combination, or the recipe of, of that is it's, it is genius.

[00:27:03] And knowing what belongs to what. So I think, you know, the frustrations that I-- and I have had many frustrations, of course you'd have to over the course of all these years. But the appreciation I have, I think is what endured and the challenges that were put in front of me opened my eyes, I think, to, to really appreciating every single person who makes the attempt or, or decides that they want to examine, study, become historians of art. It's just a passion beyond a passion for those that do it. And, you know, I guess, yes, I, I feel I have an extraordinary heritage, you know, lineage by being part of a Dragic's world.

[00:27:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's just so cool. And goodness gracious. Yes. I can imagine wanting to rip your hair out in that moment of trying to figure out, oh my gosh, this magic combination. Oh jeez.

[00:28:11] Patricia Karen Gagic: The craziness about it is that it's it's in every single painting that you look at. There's always going to be from, from any-- it does not matter-- there will always be a color that, you know, you think you can just repeat that. And he proved to me, you know, your, until you become a true master, your eyes will trick you.

[00:28:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's powerful. Oh my goodness. Okay. So your, your, background is just amazingly rich and, and just fantastic. And I'm sure your future trajectory is going to be exactly the same, as far as their richness of it. So I'm just curious, what are you up to now and sort of, where do you envision your art going next?

[00:28:57] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, we probably could have another hour conversation. I have this very unique past. I became extremely interested over the course of, you know, the last 30 or 40 years with studying different things. And that includes, oh, everything from physics, from different religions, from Buddhism. Just looking at the iconography of, of different things and I studied at the University of Toronto Applied Mindfulness and Transformative Mindfulness while I was still doing all of this with my art and, and business. And I felt that the mindfulness piece in the meditation was, was really, really important and vital to the methodology of my work. And then I, I decided to create something that I could offer people, sort of like a program, and I'm only doing sort of beta testing right now. I, I've done a few and they've turned out quite lovely.

[00:30:00] It's not really art as healing, but there is a, a refined inspiration. So I basically take people through a two to three hour session where we do a bit of meditation and at the same time, then depending upon the group that I have, I will then tailor it to that. So for example, I did the Can150, which is mostly the female Canadian Olympians and sports, sports women. And I did the "Finding Your Inner Hero" basically. And I took them through a two to three hour session where they all had paint and, you know, we put the layers on the paint and then I, I walked them through questions to inspire them to, to dig deep inside as to how they feel, where there are no mistakes. But I like to think that people don't give themselves permission to experience their own wisdom and that when they do the results are life-changing. So everyone so far who I've done this with has, has really pushed me and encouraged me to, to offer it. So it's the Karmic Art Experiences what I'm calling it.

[00:31:12] And I was, I've been very fortunate also in my life having an opportunity to help people and serve people. And I was recognized by the it's the WXN, the Women's Executive Network in Canada, the Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada. It's the organization that I have actually been nominated to and I've won four times. So I've been a three, three time, four time nominated and winner of the Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada. And then in 2018, I was inducted into the hall of fame. And when I, when I got that, thank you. When that happened, Sherry Stevens, who was the owner of, of WXN, she said to me, "Patricia, do you think you would do a WXN art experience for us?"

[00:31:55] So I did. So I had, you know, quite a few of the top 100 women in Canada on the, on the Zoom call. And I took them through the Karmic Art Experience, and I cannot even explain how, how deeply profound I recognize that self-care is really needed, especially with women who are in high profile positions. You yourself would know this and that you sometimes work yourself really hard and you don't, you don't stop long enough to actually give yourself permission to, to have a play date with yourself. So by doing the Karmic Art Experience, I'm encouraging people that once they've done it, they, if they want it to continue with my program, which I'll probably create maybe a six week program. But if not that they should still endeavor and push and give themselves that time to find what makes them happy, how they can be happier. And it is as, as complicated as, you know, our minds and our lives can be. It's that complex simplicity that is really needed.

[00:33:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. That's that's so cool. Well, and congratulations on that. That is a huge accomplishment and obviously you've super deserve it, but just congratulations on that. Awesome. Yeah. And what a cool real experience. I love, I love what you're doing. I love that you're helping women, especially, but I'm sure people in general, just, yeah, like you said, have that play date, have that self-care that's like you said, it's, it's vital. And so thank you for, for doing that. And I'm excited to see, you know, if that does end up becoming a course or how that sort of plays out in the future, but speaking of that --while I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to see some of your artwork, maybe hear more about this new experience-- is there a way for them to connect with you or to see some of your work?

[00:33:58] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yes, I, I'm very approachable and I always like to give my email out to people because I, I feel that's a communication tool that, you know, sometimes you have, you do have more control over. So patgagic@gmail.com. So patgagic@gmail.com. And then my work is, I'm represented by a couple of galleries. 13th Street Gallery is in St. Catherine's and there's also my website, which is patriciakarengagic.com. And I also have inspiredtoberewired.com. And that talks a little bit, I have a project in Cambodia that I started in 2006, and there's some information on that as well.

[00:34:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you.

[00:34:51] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you.

[00:34:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I, yeah, well, I am just incredibly inspired by your stories and I just think what an amazing, oh my goodness, what an amazing life that you've had so far, and it's just only going to continue to be, I'm sure, wonderful. And I appreciate how much you are, are open and, you know, willing to share with everyone and that. Thank you for that. And thank you also for what you're doing now, because I know that's making a difference in people's lives. And so I think it's really special that you're using a passion and a skill that you have to, to help others. So thank you for that. I commend you for that.

[00:35:31] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you.

[00:35:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with it.

[00:35:37] Patricia Karen Gagic: Okay, sure. I'll try it.

[00:35:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. You'll be great. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:45]Patricia Karen Gagic:  Oh, okay. I think art is liberating and it is the, probably the most relevant document of history that exists.

[00:36:01]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Okay. Love it. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:36:09] Patricia Karen Gagic: I think it's liberation, freedom, total expression, and to help shift the misconceptions of, of reality. And it's an opportunity to interpret whatever it is that you, as a human being are here, are here in your own path to experience. And yeah, it's, it's the artist journey.

[00:36:36]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. And my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or show notes or just context somehow, it's the inspiration. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide context behind it and basically leaves it solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:37:13] Patricia Karen Gagic: Wow. That's a powerful question because that's like chicken and the egg.

[00:37:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed.

[00:37:19] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. I I'm in, I'm in both of those mindsets. So first of all, I, I oftentimes think that a piece of work that I've completed deserves a title because yeah, I want to express and acknowledge the, that moment so I will do it, but I'm also in the, in the family of, it's my expression. I, if I wanted to write a book about something, I should write the book. The art should stand alone. It is its own word document, and it's for the person to choose, see with their eyes and interpret. So again, that's yeah. I said, I'm sorry, I can't give you one or the other. Both.

[00:38:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's completely fair. I love it. Okay. Well, thank you so much again, Patricia, for being here today and just for sharing all of your stories and I I'm just really blown away. I loved listening to everything that you've done, and I'm just so excited for, for this new venture that you're, you know, really embarking on now. And I just think that, you know, you bring so much beauty to the world and I just appreciate it. And I really appreciate you being here today. So thank you so much.

[00:38:41] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you, Lindsey. No, I've, I've loved our, I've loved this so much. It's nice to be able to share, you know, my past, some of that. So thank you for this opportunity. You're great. Thank you.

[00:38:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Aww, thank you. Yes. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and definitely check out Patricia's work, and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:11]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:20]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 062 - Jessie Katz Greenberg

In today's episode, I welcome Jessie Katz Greenberg! Jessie has had an amazing journey of being a graphic designer, a podcast co-host, an arts and crafts teacher, a freelance artist, and the DIY Content Creator for Jumprope. She shares about how teaching and encouraging others to create has led to a very fulfilling career, and how being open to possibilities has allowed her to experience art in so many different ways. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is the logo of her co-hosted podcast, Craft Hangout.) 

 

Get in touch with Jessie Katz Greenberg: https://www.crafthangout.com/ | https://www.jumprope.com/ | www.instagram.com/jessiekatzgreenberg | 

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

 

Episode 62 - Jessie Katz Greenberg

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Jessie Katz Greenberg, who is a craft content creator, podcast cohost and a DIY content director at Jump Rope, which all of those things sound super cool. So altogether, I'm just so thrilled that you're here, Jessie, and can't wait to chat art with you.

[00:02:40] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me on.

[00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind starting out by sharing a little bit about your background, sort of what got you into art and crafting and podcasting, and all the things. I'm just so excited to hear about you.

[00:02:58]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Sure. So it is, you know, quite the journey from art to sort of where  I am now. So I'll kind of give-- I'll try to give a brief rundown. I have always just been creative and obsessed with crafting and making. I went to art school and fell in love with graphic design and typography there. So that's what I ended up majoring in, and after college worked as a graphic designer, but I really missed, you know, being more hands-on with my art and making things with my hands now that everything I was doing was on the computer. So that really set me off on this journey of just experimenting with my own craft, my own work, and networking within the maker community.

[00:03:41] So I did. I started by doing just a lot of hand lettering illustrations. I really started doing hand drawn Facebook statuses. Like before Instagram was a thing, I would post, I would draw my Facebook status and post a picture of it to Facebook and sort of got into hand lettering illustration that way. So I had the opportunity to show some of my lettering in galleries and in cafes and through that, sort of morphed into --I had two handmade businesses, selling handmade jewelry and selling stationary. I sold online on Etsy, at local boutiques and craft fairs. I was lucky enough to have some fun opportunities through those businesses.

[00:04:20] My jewelry was made out of recycled materials, so I got some cool local magazine write-ups and actually had it featured on The Today Show. And this whole time I was still working full-time as a graphic designer. That was always the constant. And I was just kind of finding all of these other creative outlets along the way. So eventually I decided I needed to kind of run with these creative side businesses full-time so I left a really secure graphic design job in order to freelance full-time. So I could have more time to spend on my stationary business, specifically doing greeting cards and wedding stationary. And even through that, through running my own creative business, I was still outside of that, looking for like this creative community. And that's when I started hosting a craft nights with my friends. The art making part of my creative businesses was really fulfilling, but the actual business side of it, I realized I didn't love.

[00:05:21] And I feel like that was a difficult realization to come to as an artist, like this entrepreneur side of it is so tied to being an artist. And I kind of realized that I didn't, you know, love the business side of it as much. So we ended up moving, going to New York City. I got a job as a packaging graphic designer at a textile company. And this whole time, the constant was always striving to find and be more dedicated in this creative maker community. So I started teaching workshops, a lot of craft workshops, everything from hand lettering to floral monogram wall hangings, to embroidery, to glass etching. I was teaching sometimes three nights a week after work and on weekends.

[00:06:05] And that is what I was loving was sharing my art with others. And that's how-- so through all of this, through really just like pouring myself into this aspect of the creation community that I loved. That's how I ended up meeting Eliza Kapitan, who is the creator and host of Craft Hangout. I guested on that podcast and then ended up joining as a cohost a few years ago. And through that I met Jake, the CEO of Jumprope and, you know, a couple months after meeting him joined Jumprope full-time as their DIY Content Director. So sort of made this major shift from being a graphic designer to now joining a tech startup and being able to be sort of like their liaison from the tech side of the company, to the DIY art craft content creators that are creating on the app. So it was a long journey to end up where I am today, but it was one where I just kept sort of following my passions and following what I liked about crafting and art and landed at this job now that I totally love.

[00:07:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, first of all, I'm so glad you found something that just touches on all the things that you love and are passionate about. I think that just sounds like such a synergistic opportunity, essentially. So very-- like it was hand tailored for you is what it sounds like.

[00:07:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was one of those things where I, I was like, I knew the full-time job I was at wasn't for me anymore, but I didn't know what I wanted. And it was just, just keep doing what you love and something has to show up. It just has to, and luckily it did.

[00:07:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I think that's inspirational also in the sense of, you know, keep doing what, you know, you need to do and keep doing what you're passionate about. And even if it's on the side for a while, you just never know where one opportunity will beget another opportunity if you're just open. So how cool.

[00:08:02] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I've-- this whole time I've just loved especially when I was teaching workshops, I loved connecting with artists like who are on all different levels of their artistic journey. And then now at Jumprope, like that's what I get to do even more so since we're, you know, an, an app specifically for creators sharing their skills and creating content. So it's, it's been really great.

[00:08:25]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Awesome. Well, and I, I was just so struck by, you know... You know, looking back, it might seem like, "Oh, of course this thing led to this thing led to this thing," but of course when you're in it you're, you don't necessarily see how it's all going to eventually get woven together. But I, I really loved how you were talking about, you know, you got to this guest on this podcast and then a couple of years, or a couple, a little while after that, then you've got to, you know, have this opportunity to be co-host and how that meant something else. And it's just such like the perfect example of things coming together because you didn't stop creating, you just created and you've allowed your creativity to kind of evolve.

[00:09:04]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. Yeah. And just sort of followed, like what I, I feel like I spent a lot of time at the beginning, especially when I was starting my businesses, spending a lot of time at the beginning, like thinking about, okay, this is what my mission is, and this is what I want to do with it. And like doing all of this planning before things happened. And then I got into this phase letting things happen organically. And that's when, you know, that ended up being a better process for me. I know for some people, planning is what gets them to where they need to be. But for me, just sort of being in this organic process was what worked better for sure.

[00:09:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that sounds perfect. Well, okay. So definitely some things really popped out at me of your story and one of the biggest things-- oh, my gosh, you were on The Today Show. How cool of an opportunity. Tell me about that.

[00:09:53] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So I know it, and it was so long ago. I almost like, I almost never bring that part up, but it's like, I feel like it's just a fun highlight in this journey. And the thing is like I personally was not on it. Just my jewelry was, and it was part of this Earth Week celebration and I made jewelry out of, most of them recycled plastics, like recycled gift cards and credit cards, and also like disassembling and reassembling some vintage jewelry and things like that. So it ended up being featured on The Today Show as part of this Earth Week thing where they featured, I think, 10 other artists creating, creating art out of repurposed materials. So it was really cool to be in that collection of artists.

[00:10:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, definitely congrats on that. And I'm just curious, are you still doing any of those kinds of things on the side as well? Or do you find that your time is so-- you got a lot going on?

[00:10:51] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So yeah, I realized along the way that creating physical products and selling them was not-- like I had in my head that's like, that's what you do as an artist. You create these physical items and you sell them. And I realized that's not what was super fulfilling to me. So I stopped doing that when I started teaching 'cause that's when I sort of realized that like teaching was what I enjoyed more. Having someone come from their job that they didn't see as creative and then have them come after work to my class and say, "Oh, I'm not going to make anything very creative because I just work in Excel spreadsheets all day." And then having them leave two hours later, having felt fulfilled and creative, that is where I was, you know, feeling more passionate about art and crafting. So I sort of switched from selling products to fostering creativity in others. And that's what I do with my own content creation. Now I still teach workshops. And I share my own content on Instagram and TikTok and all of that and share a lot of craft tutorials. And so that's what I'm doing now is really fostering that creativity in others.

[00:12:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I think that's so cool too. I mean, you, you discovered that teaching is what you really loved and like, like you said, sort of inspiring other people to, to embrace their creativity or to feel like it's, it's okay-- not just okay-- like it's, it's good. I'm wondering if there are any moments when you've been teaching that really stand out as, "Oh my goodness. I got to witness that. That was such a cool moment." Or something like that.

[00:12:34] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Oh, there were a few good ones. So really that one, like that's an actual story of a woman came to my class and was like, "My thing is not going to look good. I just work in Excel all day." And that was like her disclaimer, of like, she can't be creative because she works with spreadsheets. And so to have her at the end of the class, feel like, "Oh my God, look at this thing I made." Like as her instructor felt really awesome. Some other fun moments from classes: I had someone, I was teaching a three week lettering workshop and I had someone at the end of the workshop-- we kind of like work, we start with very beginner skills and then we work towards creating this like final lettering piece. And she created her final piece. And then during the third class, when she was finishing it, she sort of photographed it, posted it on her social media and sold it while we were sitting there in class, like sold her original artwork. And I was like, "Well, that's incredible, but you just did that."

[00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow!

[00:13:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: It was like we-- Right? It was amazing that she went from, you know, beginner hand letterer to now I mean, she could call herself a professional letterer, just sold lettering artwork. Wow, what else? I think it's just the moments like that, that, that stand out. And then obviously the moment, just because it sort of set off this whole creative journey was getting to network with people like Eliza from Craft Hangout, and, you know, getting other opportunities outside of workshops as well was, you know, ended up being great.

[00:14:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you had also mentioned, I think, previous to starting to teach in a more structured way, that you had hosted craft nights, which just sounds like exactly my cup of tea. So I'm curious as to what those used to look like.

[00:14:18] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I'll be real honest. For a while, they were just sort of a facade for having like girls nights and watching The Bachelor. Like we got a bunch of cheese, turned on The Bachelor, and we brought craft projects and I'd say like 50% of the time we crafted and 50% of the time we didn't, but it was just a good time to like get together with people and  make something, see what everyone else was making. Sometimes one of us would bring something and like teach the others how to do it, or, you know, teach a new embroidery stitch. Or we would do craft supply swaps and, you know, swap stuff that we had, get rid of our yarn stash and trade with each other. So it was just a good time to foster this creativity, like within our own group of friends and learn from each other. And I, there's something so unique about crafting with people.

[00:15:14] Like whether they're your friends in a, in an environment like that, or whether it's in a workshop where I don't necessarily know the students, but we're all crafting together. Or even if it's sharing a tutorial online and having people respond to it where people are just so open while they're being creative. So in those time's crafting with friends, it was just a great time to like, get into deeper conversation with each other because you kind of just go there when you're meditating, like meditatively crafting, you just kind of get in to these more open spaces. So it was nice to kind of foster deeper friendships with people that way.

[00:15:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And I was chuckling when you were talking about it being sort of a facade for girls nights, but I feel like that's the case with other things too, like book club. I mean, let's be real. That's, it's a fun thing. I love it, but I mean, the, the food and drinks don't hurt anything.

[00:16:12] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was like, people won't make fun of us for wanting to watch The Bachelor every week if we just say it's a craft night.

[00:16:20] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I love it. I love it. Well, like you said, how, how cool, because it fostered conversations that, you know, it's not like you might never have had, but to be able to have them on a more regular basis and keep up with each other's lives. I mean, that's, that's pretty special to get to do that, so, yeah.

[00:16:37] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just think, I mean, I'm always amazed how crafting does that to, like I said, even perfect strangers. Like I was teaching a class once and one of my students told our class that she was pregnant before she had told like half of her family. And it's just cause you're in this like mode and you feel close to people and it's, it just happens. And I just think that's a beautiful thing about making art and crafting with people.

[00:17:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I can relate to that a little bit. I was teaching dance classes and when I got engaged, it was, it was like, it was so exciting. I was, I was just thrilled, over the moon, of course. And so, so the next day when I was teaching the students, finally, like, I just, I couldn't help it. Right? I had told, I had told my family by then, but I hadn't, we hadn't like officially announced it. And I was just like, "Guys." Like, you just can't contain it. You know? And that small class environment and stuff, it was, yeah, it was really special. They were awesome. They were happy for me, but they were cracking up because, yeah, I was just over the top. Oh, goodness. Well, that is, that sounds lovely. So do you still do craft nights at all or is it kind of a thing that maybe eventually you can resurrect after all this crazy goes away?

[00:17:57] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, we've done some virtual craft nights. I, so since I, it was several years ago when I started doing them with that group of friends and I since then moved to New York City. I was not living far outside the city. Before I was living in like, you know, maybe half hour, 45 minutes outside the city, but it's very different when you move into New York and then you don't have a car and you can't get out there all the time. So and also just with then turning to teaching crafts and like basically professionally having craft nights, I didn't have as much time to do these other craft nights, but over the last year we have resurrected them with some Zoom craft nights we did. Let's see. I think we all forced our husbands to do a, to do, like a paint night together and like Bob Ross painting paint along. And so we've been doing some, some stuff like that, but not as, not weekly, like we used to.

[00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Well, that's still fun. I'm glad you get to, to keep up on it a little bit. Well, yeah. Yeah. I know, I know this question is going to probably on some level be a little bit impossible to answer, but I'm just curious. Do you have a favorite craft? Like something that you just gravitate towards if you're just like, "I just need some art right now."

[00:19:17]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, it really changes a lot, it goes back and forth between a couple specific things. So one is definitely hand lettering just because I, I still love topography as much as I did when I studied it in school for graphic design. I just didn't like being stuck on the computer all the time. So hand lettering is definitely one of those things, and when I like to be a little bit more free and less planned, it's usually embroidery or any type of upcycling. So like, you know, turning cardboard into something or repurposing something around the apartment, anything like that.

[00:19:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. That's awesome. Well, obviously, you know, you've-- like we talked about at the beginning, you've kind of really allowed opportunities into your life and not shut them down as like, "Well, I had one vision and that's not the vision, so I'm not going for it." And I think that there's, that that's such a great skill to have or mindset to have. And so I'm kind of curious, do you have advice for somebody who might be interested in starting on the path to crafting, or to be an artist, but is maybe a little hesitant or nervous or anything like that?

[00:20:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. I, and I feel like this is the advice everyone gives, but I like-- honestly, just start. Like, don't think that you have to do all of this planning ahead of time, just start. And this is even the same advice like I give at work at Jumprope to creators who are nervous about starting video. It's the same thing. It's just start creating video content because the thing is, you are not going to find out what you love and what fits your skill set and what you need. Like, you're not going to find this out until you just start making. So the advice is just start and kind of learn from your own process. Learn what is fulfilling. You learn the aspects that aren't and then kind of develop from there.

[00:21:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. I really liked that and yes, you're completely right. I think diving in, just, just doing something. I think even if you're just start by writing a sentence, if you want to be an author or, you know, paint one little bird or something if you want to be a fine artist. You know, it's just, it's, it's being courageous enough to, to take that first step, which is-- it's challenging. I mean, I, yeah, but who knows where those adventures will lead to.

[00:21:42] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And especially now, I feel like it's so challenging to take those first steps because everybody has this idea that things have to be perfect. And like, honestly, because of social media, people think that, especially for visual art, if they're going to create something, it has to be perfect so they can post it, and it looks great next to all of these other professional artists and crafters posting stuff on social media. And the reality is your first one is not going to be perfect. So once you just take away that fear of the first time not being perfect, then everything can flow a little bit.

[00:22:17] Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. And giving yourself grace too. No beginner is perfect on day one. I mean, and, and even as you, you know, you journey through being an artist and becoming better and better. There are still ebbs and flows. I mean, there are some days you're like, "Wow, I have zero inspiration and apparently can't draw" or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And that's true. It's just ebbs and flows in the growth process. So.

[00:22:48] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.

[00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, tell me a little bit more, if you don't mind, about this dream job that you have. That sounds super cool. And obviously you're helping creatives and I'm very curious, because I know, you know, some of our listeners are crafters and creatives and would be interested potentially in what you all have to offer.

[00:23:08] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Awesome. So Jumprope is an app. It's a platform to learn how to do anything. So we make it super easy for creators to share helpful DIYs, art tutorials, even music lessons, recipes, fitness routines, whatever it is you'd like to. You can share your skills on Jumprope. So you're creating these step-by-step videos. They live on the Jumprope platform. Once you publish them, it's a public platform and it's a free app. And then you can also download those videos to share them across all of your other platforms. So the app automatically formats say horizontal version that you can put on your YouTube channel and a vertical version you can put on IGTV, and a sped up vertical version you can use on TikTok, and several versions you can use on Pinterest to drive traffic to your Etsy shop or your blog or whatever it is. So we really try and make it super easy for creators to create video, even if you've never done it before, and then share it to all of the platforms, all the places you have to be.

[00:24:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that sounds amazing. What a great resource. Awesome. Well, yeah. If, if anyone wants to kind of check more into that, do you have a good way for them to do that?

[00:24:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, absolutely. So Jumprope is available in the Apple App store and the Google Play store. So we're available on iPhone and Android. And we can also, once you actually, you can also just visit, jumprope.com and view the content there as well to kind of get a feel of it. And then if you are getting started in the app, if you're downloading the app now while you're listening, and want some tutorials to get started, you'll see there's a Jumprope tips section in the app, and we've created a ton of tutorials to help get started, share your content. We give you best practices, mistakes to avoid, all of that stuff that you need to know to get started on a new platform.

[00:25:12] Lindsey Dinneen: That's perfect. Yeah. Especially if, if the content creator isn't particularly necessarily comfortable with video just yet or that kind of thing, that's, that's very helpful. I'm glad you guys do that.

[00:25:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And we actually, like, we know that video is such a barrier for people. So the way that you create on Jumprope, it's actually, it's sort of more similar, honestly, to creating an Instagram story than it is to creating a long form video. It, the platform has all this step-by-step content that you can tap through at your own pace. So you're creating like one card at a time in your tutorial instead of creating this long form video. Even if you're brand new to video, you can actually just put in like process photos of your art process or your craft process and create Jumprope content just from photos to get started.

[00:26:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, even better. Very cool. Well, yeah, definitely I would encourage anyone who's interested in taking advantage of an incredible platform to go and check out Jumprope and see if it might be a good fit for you, because that sounds exactly like a fantastic way to grow your business and your following. So I definitely encourage anyone who's interested to definitely do that.

[00:26:25] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. And even I do want to say too, like as artists, 'cause this is something that I feel like super, you know, encouraged by as a creator myself, and working on this side of Jumprope, like seeing the type of content that succeeds on this platform just makes me so happy because it does not matter if you have an existing large audience, which I know for people trying to get started, like for, for crafters, especially in artists and content creators, trying to get started on Instagram or TikTok-- there's all of this pressure on what size your following is and since Jumprope is a newer platform, it is not about the size of your following. It is not about the size of your audience. It's really about if your content is valuable. So is your content helpful? Is it detailed so people can follow along? Are you teaching something interesting? Like that's the content that's going to really succeed on Jumprope, whether or not you have a following anywhere else. So it's really encouraging for me to see creators, all different status, like all different stages in their career, sort of succeed on Jumprope just because their content is just plain good.

[00:27:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah, no, that is fantastic. And oh, very cool. Yeah, I'm excited to go check it out myself as well, so awesome. Well, and yeah, and so you also co-host this podcast, so yeah. Tell us a little bit, maybe more about the podcast and, and what y'all do.

[00:27:51]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So Craft Hangout is --we call it an inspiration destination podcast. So it actually, you know, fits, I think seamlessly right in with the style of podcast that you have, Lindsey. We at Craft Hangout, we are three co-hosts. So Eliza is the creator and host and then myself and Leeloo Thatcher are the co-hosts and we interview a different guest or guests each week and really try and tell their story. And, you know, narrow it down to some really interesting takeaways for our audience as well. So if you are a professional crafter, blogger, craft hobbyist, entrepreneur, there will be some sort of takeaways for you from, from each episode.

[00:28:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, very cool. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Yeah. And then and how can we listen to that? Is it sort of available everywhere podcasts are?

[00:28:47] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yes, it is. We are also, we also release through Podbean and, you know, you can find us at just crafthangout.com or we're available wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:28:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, this has been very inspirational. I just loved hearing all your stories and yeah, I'm just always so interested in how opportunities can create other opportunities when you're open. And so I just think your, your life story so far has been such a perfect example of that in your openness and your willingness to, to explore so many different styles of creativity even. So awesome. Thank you for that. I, that was great. And I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with it.

[00:29:30] Jessie Katz Greenberg: I'm ready for it.

[00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:29:37]Jessie Katz Greenberg: So my answer is very simple and I just feel art is creative expression, and I want to be really clear in saying that it can be any creative expression. Crafting is art. Obviously, as you know, like dancing performance is art. Whether you are creating art in your bedroom or a professional studio, if this art ends up in the trash or hangs in a gallery, it's your creative expression and it's art.

[00:30:07] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:30:13]Jessie Katz Greenberg: This one is hard. I think that it's just to share your perspective, whatever it is. And, and again, I mean, you'll, this might be very obvious from the way I've answered, I'm answering these questions, but I just feel like, you know, art is for everyone. So I just think the most important role is to share your perspective. And if that perspective is, you know, something deep that people have to think about, or if you're making an important political commentary or you're, you know, making things because it's cute and your perspective as you want to cheer people up and make them happy. And that's the point of it then. All of that is valid. So I think it's just sharing your perspective, whatever that is.

[00:30:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, with inclusive and artists putting their work out into the world and providing some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration, basically just having a little bit of background for the viewer. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide what they will.

[00:31:32]Jessie Katz Greenberg: I definitely feel like there are, there's a place for both. As a consumer of art, there are times when I enjoy both of these and obviously like having, having gone to art school, I totally appreciate the exclusive type of art, I think, if we're talking about it in these terms, but I personally lean more towards inclusive. I, especially, I think that maybe that just comes too from like me being so drawn to crafts and handicrafts and like folk art type of work is, it's just so tied to the story behind it that I, I like having that context. And even like, if I'm thinking about, you know, crafty artsy content creators that I follow or that we have creating on Jumprope. Like I, like when they share a little bit of a personal story about something, whether it's why they created this piece of art, or they're creating it to celebrate a season or entertain their kids or simplify something where they're an expert. So it's more accessible for beginners. Like I just like hearing the story behind it. So I think I lean a little bit more inclusive.

[00:32:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. And especially because of the way you were talking about how much you found that you enjoy sharing now. Teaching, I would say, is a little bit different, but it's still, that's sort of your nature it sounds like, is to, to share and provide, you know, some background.

[00:33:03] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.

[00:33:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:33:05] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.

[00:33:07]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. I love it. Well. Okay, great. And I know how we can get in touch with the podcast or kind of follow the podcast and the app. Is there any other way that we can get in contact with you if we want to learn more, just want to follow your journey. Is there a way for us to do that?

[00:33:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I share all of my work on, on Jumprope, obviously, and on Instagram and some on TikTok and my username across all of these platforms is Jessie Katz Greenberg, all one word.

[00:33:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. And I'll definitely be posting links to that too. So that if you're curious, you can just go to the show notes and easily click on all of that. Well, awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here today, Jessie. I really appreciate you. I love your stories. And I really appreciate how inspiring you are and how much you inspire others to be creative and encourage that, you know, even if it's just starting on the smallest little step, you know, you're right there supporting that. So that's special. And what you bring to the world adds a lot of value and beauty. So thank you. And thanks for being here.

[00:34:17] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much. This was awesome. I loved getting a chance to talk to you and kind of dig deeper in those, into those questions of what art is. And it was just really a great time. So thank you so much.

[00:34:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you also so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:34:43]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:34:53]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!