Artfully Told

Episode 062 - Jessie Katz Greenberg

In today's episode, I welcome Jessie Katz Greenberg! Jessie has had an amazing journey of being a graphic designer, a podcast co-host, an arts and crafts teacher, a freelance artist, and the DIY Content Creator for Jumprope. She shares about how teaching and encouraging others to create has led to a very fulfilling career, and how being open to possibilities has allowed her to experience art in so many different ways. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is the logo of her co-hosted podcast, Craft Hangout.) 
 
Get in touch with Jessie Katz Greenberg: https://www.crafthangout.com/ | https://www.jumprope.com/ | www.instagram.com/jessiekatzgreenberg | 
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Episode 62 - Jessie Katz Greenberg
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.
[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.
[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Jessie Katz Greenberg, who is a craft content creator, podcast cohost and a DIY content director at Jump Rope, which all of those things sound super cool. So altogether, I'm just so thrilled that you're here, Jessie, and can't wait to chat art with you.
[00:02:40] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me on.
[00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind starting out by sharing a little bit about your background, sort of what got you into art and crafting and podcasting, and all the things. I'm just so excited to hear about you.
[00:02:58]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Sure. So it is, you know, quite the journey from art to sort of where  I am now. So I'll kind of give-- I'll try to give a brief rundown. I have always just been creative and obsessed with crafting and making. I went to art school and fell in love with graphic design and typography there. So that's what I ended up majoring in, and after college worked as a graphic designer, but I really missed, you know, being more hands-on with my art and making things with my hands now that everything I was doing was on the computer. So that really set me off on this journey of just experimenting with my own craft, my own work, and networking within the maker community.
[00:03:41] So I did. I started by doing just a lot of hand lettering illustrations. I really started doing hand drawn Facebook statuses. Like before Instagram was a thing, I would post, I would draw my Facebook status and post a picture of it to Facebook and sort of got into hand lettering illustration that way. So I had the opportunity to show some of my lettering in galleries and in cafes and through that, sort of morphed into --I had two handmade businesses, selling handmade jewelry and selling stationary. I sold online on Etsy, at local boutiques and craft fairs. I was lucky enough to have some fun opportunities through those businesses.
[00:04:20] My jewelry was made out of recycled materials, so I got some cool local magazine write-ups and actually had it featured on The Today Show. And this whole time I was still working full-time as a graphic designer. That was always the constant. And I was just kind of finding all of these other creative outlets along the way. So eventually I decided I needed to kind of run with these creative side businesses full-time so I left a really secure graphic design job in order to freelance full-time. So I could have more time to spend on my stationary business, specifically doing greeting cards and wedding stationary. And even through that, through running my own creative business, I was still outside of that, looking for like this creative community. And that's when I started hosting a craft nights with my friends. The art making part of my creative businesses was really fulfilling, but the actual business side of it, I realized I didn't love.
[00:05:21] And I feel like that was a difficult realization to come to as an artist, like this entrepreneur side of it is so tied to being an artist. And I kind of realized that I didn't, you know, love the business side of it as much. So we ended up moving, going to New York City. I got a job as a packaging graphic designer at a textile company. And this whole time, the constant was always striving to find and be more dedicated in this creative maker community. So I started teaching workshops, a lot of craft workshops, everything from hand lettering to floral monogram wall hangings, to embroidery, to glass etching. I was teaching sometimes three nights a week after work and on weekends.
[00:06:05] And that is what I was loving was sharing my art with others. And that's how-- so through all of this, through really just like pouring myself into this aspect of the creation community that I loved. That's how I ended up meeting Eliza Kapitan, who is the creator and host of Craft Hangout. I guested on that podcast and then ended up joining as a cohost a few years ago. And through that I met Jake, the CEO of Jumprope and, you know, a couple months after meeting him joined Jumprope full-time as their DIY Content Director. So sort of made this major shift from being a graphic designer to now joining a tech startup and being able to be sort of like their liaison from the tech side of the company, to the DIY art craft content creators that are creating on the app. So it was a long journey to end up where I am today, but it was one where I just kept sort of following my passions and following what I liked about crafting and art and landed at this job now that I totally love.
[00:07:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, first of all, I'm so glad you found something that just touches on all the things that you love and are passionate about. I think that just sounds like such a synergistic opportunity, essentially. So very-- like it was hand tailored for you is what it sounds like.
[00:07:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was one of those things where I, I was like, I knew the full-time job I was at wasn't for me anymore, but I didn't know what I wanted. And it was just, just keep doing what you love and something has to show up. It just has to, and luckily it did.
[00:07:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I think that's inspirational also in the sense of, you know, keep doing what, you know, you need to do and keep doing what you're passionate about. And even if it's on the side for a while, you just never know where one opportunity will beget another opportunity if you're just open. So how cool.
[00:08:02] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I've-- this whole time I've just loved especially when I was teaching workshops, I loved connecting with artists like who are on all different levels of their artistic journey. And then now at Jumprope, like that's what I get to do even more so since we're, you know, an, an app specifically for creators sharing their skills and creating content. So it's, it's been really great.
[00:08:25]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Awesome. Well, and I, I was just so struck by, you know... You know, looking back, it might seem like, "Oh, of course this thing led to this thing led to this thing," but of course when you're in it you're, you don't necessarily see how it's all going to eventually get woven together. But I, I really loved how you were talking about, you know, you got to this guest on this podcast and then a couple of years, or a couple, a little while after that, then you've got to, you know, have this opportunity to be co-host and how that meant something else. And it's just such like the perfect example of things coming together because you didn't stop creating, you just created and you've allowed your creativity to kind of evolve.
[00:09:04]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. Yeah. And just sort of followed, like what I, I feel like I spent a lot of time at the beginning, especially when I was starting my businesses, spending a lot of time at the beginning, like thinking about, okay, this is what my mission is, and this is what I want to do with it. And like doing all of this planning before things happened. And then I got into this phase letting things happen organically. And that's when, you know, that ended up being a better process for me. I know for some people, planning is what gets them to where they need to be. But for me, just sort of being in this organic process was what worked better for sure.
[00:09:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that sounds perfect. Well, okay. So definitely some things really popped out at me of your story and one of the biggest things-- oh, my gosh, you were on The Today Show. How cool of an opportunity. Tell me about that.
[00:09:53] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So I know it, and it was so long ago. I almost like, I almost never bring that part up, but it's like, I feel like it's just a fun highlight in this journey. And the thing is like I personally was not on it. Just my jewelry was, and it was part of this Earth Week celebration and I made jewelry out of, most of them recycled plastics, like recycled gift cards and credit cards, and also like disassembling and reassembling some vintage jewelry and things like that. So it ended up being featured on The Today Show as part of this Earth Week thing where they featured, I think, 10 other artists creating, creating art out of repurposed materials. So it was really cool to be in that collection of artists.
[00:10:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, definitely congrats on that. And I'm just curious, are you still doing any of those kinds of things on the side as well? Or do you find that your time is so-- you got a lot going on?
[00:10:51] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So yeah, I realized along the way that creating physical products and selling them was not-- like I had in my head that's like, that's what you do as an artist. You create these physical items and you sell them. And I realized that's not what was super fulfilling to me. So I stopped doing that when I started teaching 'cause that's when I sort of realized that like teaching was what I enjoyed more. Having someone come from their job that they didn't see as creative and then have them come after work to my class and say, "Oh, I'm not going to make anything very creative because I just work in Excel spreadsheets all day." And then having them leave two hours later, having felt fulfilled and creative, that is where I was, you know, feeling more passionate about art and crafting. So I sort of switched from selling products to fostering creativity in others. And that's what I do with my own content creation. Now I still teach workshops. And I share my own content on Instagram and TikTok and all of that and share a lot of craft tutorials. And so that's what I'm doing now is really fostering that creativity in others.
[00:12:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I think that's so cool too. I mean, you, you discovered that teaching is what you really loved and like, like you said, sort of inspiring other people to, to embrace their creativity or to feel like it's, it's okay-- not just okay-- like it's, it's good. I'm wondering if there are any moments when you've been teaching that really stand out as, "Oh my goodness. I got to witness that. That was such a cool moment." Or something like that.
[00:12:34] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Oh, there were a few good ones. So really that one, like that's an actual story of a woman came to my class and was like, "My thing is not going to look good. I just work in Excel all day." And that was like her disclaimer, of like, she can't be creative because she works with spreadsheets. And so to have her at the end of the class, feel like, "Oh my God, look at this thing I made." Like as her instructor felt really awesome. Some other fun moments from classes: I had someone, I was teaching a three week lettering workshop and I had someone at the end of the workshop-- we kind of like work, we start with very beginner skills and then we work towards creating this like final lettering piece. And she created her final piece. And then during the third class, when she was finishing it, she sort of photographed it, posted it on her social media and sold it while we were sitting there in class, like sold her original artwork. And I was like, "Well, that's incredible, but you just did that."
[00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow!
[00:13:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: It was like we-- Right? It was amazing that she went from, you know, beginner hand letterer to now I mean, she could call herself a professional letterer, just sold lettering artwork. Wow, what else? I think it's just the moments like that, that, that stand out. And then obviously the moment, just because it sort of set off this whole creative journey was getting to network with people like Eliza from Craft Hangout, and, you know, getting other opportunities outside of workshops as well was, you know, ended up being great.
[00:14:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you had also mentioned, I think, previous to starting to teach in a more structured way, that you had hosted craft nights, which just sounds like exactly my cup of tea. So I'm curious as to what those used to look like.
[00:14:18] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I'll be real honest. For a while, they were just sort of a facade for having like girls nights and watching The Bachelor. Like we got a bunch of cheese, turned on The Bachelor, and we brought craft projects and I'd say like 50% of the time we crafted and 50% of the time we didn't, but it was just a good time to like get together with people and  make something, see what everyone else was making. Sometimes one of us would bring something and like teach the others how to do it, or, you know, teach a new embroidery stitch. Or we would do craft supply swaps and, you know, swap stuff that we had, get rid of our yarn stash and trade with each other. So it was just a good time to foster this creativity, like within our own group of friends and learn from each other. And I, there's something so unique about crafting with people.
[00:15:14] Like whether they're your friends in a, in an environment like that, or whether it's in a workshop where I don't necessarily know the students, but we're all crafting together. Or even if it's sharing a tutorial online and having people respond to it where people are just so open while they're being creative. So in those time's crafting with friends, it was just a great time to like, get into deeper conversation with each other because you kind of just go there when you're meditating, like meditatively crafting, you just kind of get in to these more open spaces. So it was nice to kind of foster deeper friendships with people that way.
[00:15:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And I was chuckling when you were talking about it being sort of a facade for girls nights, but I feel like that's the case with other things too, like book club. I mean, let's be real. That's, it's a fun thing. I love it, but I mean, the, the food and drinks don't hurt anything.
[00:16:12] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was like, people won't make fun of us for wanting to watch The Bachelor every week if we just say it's a craft night.
[00:16:20] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I love it. I love it. Well, like you said, how, how cool, because it fostered conversations that, you know, it's not like you might never have had, but to be able to have them on a more regular basis and keep up with each other's lives. I mean, that's, that's pretty special to get to do that, so, yeah.
[00:16:37] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just think, I mean, I'm always amazed how crafting does that to, like I said, even perfect strangers. Like I was teaching a class once and one of my students told our class that she was pregnant before she had told like half of her family. And it's just cause you're in this like mode and you feel close to people and it's, it just happens. And I just think that's a beautiful thing about making art and crafting with people.
[00:17:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I can relate to that a little bit. I was teaching dance classes and when I got engaged, it was, it was like, it was so exciting. I was, I was just thrilled, over the moon, of course. And so, so the next day when I was teaching the students, finally, like, I just, I couldn't help it. Right? I had told, I had told my family by then, but I hadn't, we hadn't like officially announced it. And I was just like, "Guys." Like, you just can't contain it. You know? And that small class environment and stuff, it was, yeah, it was really special. They were awesome. They were happy for me, but they were cracking up because, yeah, I was just over the top. Oh, goodness. Well, that is, that sounds lovely. So do you still do craft nights at all or is it kind of a thing that maybe eventually you can resurrect after all this crazy goes away?
[00:17:57] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, we've done some virtual craft nights. I, so since I, it was several years ago when I started doing them with that group of friends and I since then moved to New York City. I was not living far outside the city. Before I was living in like, you know, maybe half hour, 45 minutes outside the city, but it's very different when you move into New York and then you don't have a car and you can't get out there all the time. So and also just with then turning to teaching crafts and like basically professionally having craft nights, I didn't have as much time to do these other craft nights, but over the last year we have resurrected them with some Zoom craft nights we did. Let's see. I think we all forced our husbands to do a, to do, like a paint night together and like Bob Ross painting paint along. And so we've been doing some, some stuff like that, but not as, not weekly, like we used to.
[00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Well, that's still fun. I'm glad you get to, to keep up on it a little bit. Well, yeah. Yeah. I know, I know this question is going to probably on some level be a little bit impossible to answer, but I'm just curious. Do you have a favorite craft? Like something that you just gravitate towards if you're just like, "I just need some art right now."
[00:19:17]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, it really changes a lot, it goes back and forth between a couple specific things. So one is definitely hand lettering just because I, I still love topography as much as I did when I studied it in school for graphic design. I just didn't like being stuck on the computer all the time. So hand lettering is definitely one of those things, and when I like to be a little bit more free and less planned, it's usually embroidery or any type of upcycling. So like, you know, turning cardboard into something or repurposing something around the apartment, anything like that.
[00:19:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. That's awesome. Well, obviously, you know, you've-- like we talked about at the beginning, you've kind of really allowed opportunities into your life and not shut them down as like, "Well, I had one vision and that's not the vision, so I'm not going for it." And I think that there's, that that's such a great skill to have or mindset to have. And so I'm kind of curious, do you have advice for somebody who might be interested in starting on the path to crafting, or to be an artist, but is maybe a little hesitant or nervous or anything like that?
[00:20:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. I, and I feel like this is the advice everyone gives, but I like-- honestly, just start. Like, don't think that you have to do all of this planning ahead of time, just start. And this is even the same advice like I give at work at Jumprope to creators who are nervous about starting video. It's the same thing. It's just start creating video content because the thing is, you are not going to find out what you love and what fits your skill set and what you need. Like, you're not going to find this out until you just start making. So the advice is just start and kind of learn from your own process. Learn what is fulfilling. You learn the aspects that aren't and then kind of develop from there.
[00:21:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. I really liked that and yes, you're completely right. I think diving in, just, just doing something. I think even if you're just start by writing a sentence, if you want to be an author or, you know, paint one little bird or something if you want to be a fine artist. You know, it's just, it's, it's being courageous enough to, to take that first step, which is-- it's challenging. I mean, I, yeah, but who knows where those adventures will lead to.
[00:21:42] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And especially now, I feel like it's so challenging to take those first steps because everybody has this idea that things have to be perfect. And like, honestly, because of social media, people think that, especially for visual art, if they're going to create something, it has to be perfect so they can post it, and it looks great next to all of these other professional artists and crafters posting stuff on social media. And the reality is your first one is not going to be perfect. So once you just take away that fear of the first time not being perfect, then everything can flow a little bit.
[00:22:17] Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. And giving yourself grace too. No beginner is perfect on day one. I mean, and, and even as you, you know, you journey through being an artist and becoming better and better. There are still ebbs and flows. I mean, there are some days you're like, "Wow, I have zero inspiration and apparently can't draw" or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And that's true. It's just ebbs and flows in the growth process. So.
[00:22:48] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.
[00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, tell me a little bit more, if you don't mind, about this dream job that you have. That sounds super cool. And obviously you're helping creatives and I'm very curious, because I know, you know, some of our listeners are crafters and creatives and would be interested potentially in what you all have to offer.
[00:23:08] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Awesome. So Jumprope is an app. It's a platform to learn how to do anything. So we make it super easy for creators to share helpful DIYs, art tutorials, even music lessons, recipes, fitness routines, whatever it is you'd like to. You can share your skills on Jumprope. So you're creating these step-by-step videos. They live on the Jumprope platform. Once you publish them, it's a public platform and it's a free app. And then you can also download those videos to share them across all of your other platforms. So the app automatically formats say horizontal version that you can put on your YouTube channel and a vertical version you can put on IGTV, and a sped up vertical version you can use on TikTok, and several versions you can use on Pinterest to drive traffic to your Etsy shop or your blog or whatever it is. So we really try and make it super easy for creators to create video, even if you've never done it before, and then share it to all of the platforms, all the places you have to be.
[00:24:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that sounds amazing. What a great resource. Awesome. Well, yeah. If, if anyone wants to kind of check more into that, do you have a good way for them to do that?
[00:24:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, absolutely. So Jumprope is available in the Apple App store and the Google Play store. So we're available on iPhone and Android. And we can also, once you actually, you can also just visit, jumprope.com and view the content there as well to kind of get a feel of it. And then if you are getting started in the app, if you're downloading the app now while you're listening, and want some tutorials to get started, you'll see there's a Jumprope tips section in the app, and we've created a ton of tutorials to help get started, share your content. We give you best practices, mistakes to avoid, all of that stuff that you need to know to get started on a new platform.
[00:25:12] Lindsey Dinneen: That's perfect. Yeah. Especially if, if the content creator isn't particularly necessarily comfortable with video just yet or that kind of thing, that's, that's very helpful. I'm glad you guys do that.
[00:25:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And we actually, like, we know that video is such a barrier for people. So the way that you create on Jumprope, it's actually, it's sort of more similar, honestly, to creating an Instagram story than it is to creating a long form video. It, the platform has all this step-by-step content that you can tap through at your own pace. So you're creating like one card at a time in your tutorial instead of creating this long form video. Even if you're brand new to video, you can actually just put in like process photos of your art process or your craft process and create Jumprope content just from photos to get started.
[00:26:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, even better. Very cool. Well, yeah, definitely I would encourage anyone who's interested in taking advantage of an incredible platform to go and check out Jumprope and see if it might be a good fit for you, because that sounds exactly like a fantastic way to grow your business and your following. So I definitely encourage anyone who's interested to definitely do that.
[00:26:25] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. And even I do want to say too, like as artists, 'cause this is something that I feel like super, you know, encouraged by as a creator myself, and working on this side of Jumprope, like seeing the type of content that succeeds on this platform just makes me so happy because it does not matter if you have an existing large audience, which I know for people trying to get started, like for, for crafters, especially in artists and content creators, trying to get started on Instagram or TikTok-- there's all of this pressure on what size your following is and since Jumprope is a newer platform, it is not about the size of your following. It is not about the size of your audience. It's really about if your content is valuable. So is your content helpful? Is it detailed so people can follow along? Are you teaching something interesting? Like that's the content that's going to really succeed on Jumprope, whether or not you have a following anywhere else. So it's really encouraging for me to see creators, all different status, like all different stages in their career, sort of succeed on Jumprope just because their content is just plain good.
[00:27:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah, no, that is fantastic. And oh, very cool. Yeah, I'm excited to go check it out myself as well, so awesome. Well, and yeah, and so you also co-host this podcast, so yeah. Tell us a little bit, maybe more about the podcast and, and what y'all do.
[00:27:51]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So Craft Hangout is --we call it an inspiration destination podcast. So it actually, you know, fits, I think seamlessly right in with the style of podcast that you have, Lindsey. We at Craft Hangout, we are three co-hosts. So Eliza is the creator and host and then myself and Leeloo Thatcher are the co-hosts and we interview a different guest or guests each week and really try and tell their story. And, you know, narrow it down to some really interesting takeaways for our audience as well. So if you are a professional crafter, blogger, craft hobbyist, entrepreneur, there will be some sort of takeaways for you from, from each episode.
[00:28:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, very cool. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Yeah. And then and how can we listen to that? Is it sort of available everywhere podcasts are?
[00:28:47] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yes, it is. We are also, we also release through Podbean and, you know, you can find us at just crafthangout.com or we're available wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:28:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, this has been very inspirational. I just loved hearing all your stories and yeah, I'm just always so interested in how opportunities can create other opportunities when you're open. And so I just think your, your life story so far has been such a perfect example of that in your openness and your willingness to, to explore so many different styles of creativity even. So awesome. Thank you for that. I, that was great. And I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with it.
[00:29:30] Jessie Katz Greenberg: I'm ready for it.
[00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:29:37]Jessie Katz Greenberg: So my answer is very simple and I just feel art is creative expression, and I want to be really clear in saying that it can be any creative expression. Crafting is art. Obviously, as you know, like dancing performance is art. Whether you are creating art in your bedroom or a professional studio, if this art ends up in the trash or hangs in a gallery, it's your creative expression and it's art.
[00:30:07] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:30:13]Jessie Katz Greenberg: This one is hard. I think that it's just to share your perspective, whatever it is. And, and again, I mean, you'll, this might be very obvious from the way I've answered, I'm answering these questions, but I just feel like, you know, art is for everyone. So I just think the most important role is to share your perspective. And if that perspective is, you know, something deep that people have to think about, or if you're making an important political commentary or you're, you know, making things because it's cute and your perspective as you want to cheer people up and make them happy. And that's the point of it then. All of that is valid. So I think it's just sharing your perspective, whatever that is.
[00:30:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, with inclusive and artists putting their work out into the world and providing some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration, basically just having a little bit of background for the viewer. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide what they will.
[00:31:32]Jessie Katz Greenberg: I definitely feel like there are, there's a place for both. As a consumer of art, there are times when I enjoy both of these and obviously like having, having gone to art school, I totally appreciate the exclusive type of art, I think, if we're talking about it in these terms, but I personally lean more towards inclusive. I, especially, I think that maybe that just comes too from like me being so drawn to crafts and handicrafts and like folk art type of work is, it's just so tied to the story behind it that I, I like having that context. And even like, if I'm thinking about, you know, crafty artsy content creators that I follow or that we have creating on Jumprope. Like I, like when they share a little bit of a personal story about something, whether it's why they created this piece of art, or they're creating it to celebrate a season or entertain their kids or simplify something where they're an expert. So it's more accessible for beginners. Like I just like hearing the story behind it. So I think I lean a little bit more inclusive.
[00:32:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. And especially because of the way you were talking about how much you found that you enjoy sharing now. Teaching, I would say, is a little bit different, but it's still, that's sort of your nature it sounds like, is to, to share and provide, you know, some background.
[00:33:03] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.
[00:33:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.
[00:33:05] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.
[00:33:07]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. I love it. Well. Okay, great. And I know how we can get in touch with the podcast or kind of follow the podcast and the app. Is there any other way that we can get in contact with you if we want to learn more, just want to follow your journey. Is there a way for us to do that?
[00:33:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I share all of my work on, on Jumprope, obviously, and on Instagram and some on TikTok and my username across all of these platforms is Jessie Katz Greenberg, all one word.
[00:33:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. And I'll definitely be posting links to that too. So that if you're curious, you can just go to the show notes and easily click on all of that. Well, awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here today, Jessie. I really appreciate you. I love your stories. And I really appreciate how inspiring you are and how much you inspire others to be creative and encourage that, you know, even if it's just starting on the smallest little step, you know, you're right there supporting that. So that's special. And what you bring to the world adds a lot of value and beauty. So thank you. And thanks for being here.
[00:34:17] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much. This was awesome. I loved getting a chance to talk to you and kind of dig deeper in those, into those questions of what art is. And it was just really a great time. So thank you so much.
[00:34:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you also so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:34:43]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:34:53]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 061 - Bryan Colley

In today's episode, I welcome Bryan Colley! Bryan is a playwright and director, and is premiering his latest work about the 19th amendment, "On Account of Sex," at this year's Kansas City Fringe Festival, running July 18th through August 1st. Learn about his unique approach to naming his theater companies, his writing process, and how he keeps his productions lean and impactful. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is a cut-out version of his Fringe show's promotional image.)
 
Watch Bryan Colley's KC Fringe Festival Show, "On Account of Sex": https://kcfringe.org/2021-shows/on-account-of-sex/ 
Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 
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Episode 61 - Bryan Colley
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.
[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.
[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Bryan Colley. He is a playwright and producer, and I actually had the opportunity to get to know him just, just a little bit, but through Kansas City Fringe Festival. That's  sort of where we initially got connected. And I am just so delighted. Bryan has such a rich background, and has been involved in the Fringe Festival and as a playwright for years and years, and just brings so much just interesting experience to the table today. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it, Bryan.
[00:02:54] Bryan Colley: Hello. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started in art in general, writing specifically and, and take it from there, if you don't mind.
[00:03:09]Bryan Colley: Okay. I'm not sure how far you want to go back. But I think I've wanted to be a writer since I was a teenager or at least to do something creative. I do art as well. I went to The Art Institute for a year. My college years were kind of scattered, trying to figure out where I wanted to be, because I didn't know if I wanted to do art or if I wanted to make movies. And somehow I ended up doing theater and didn't think I wanted to write plays until I wrote my first play. And it was such a good experience that I said, "Hey, this is something I can do." So after college, I started writing plays and also spent a long time writing screenplays. I'm one of the founding members of the Kansas City Screenwriters that's still meeting. I think we started in 1992 and we're still meeting today, just a very small group of people who wanna write screenplays. And I haven't really written a screenplay in a long time, but I did spend a long time writing them before Fringe came along, and then I kind of committed myself to writing plays after that, just at, at the very minimum, at least doing one show a year. Every year for Fringe was a goal, which I have done every year since 2008.
[00:04:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And so I know that Fringe probably helped narrow down your trajectory, but I-- it seems like you, how should we say ,you got "volunteered" into a broader role with Fringe. And so, your role kind of has expanded from not only being on the producing side, but then also being on the whole administrative/ marketing genius side. Is that correct?
[00:04:57] Bryan Colley: That is correct. My wife, Tara, and I went to Fringe its first year and went and saw the shows there and came away from it thinking, "Hey, we can do this." And so the next year we wrote our first show for the Fringe, which was called "Jesus Christ, King of Comedy." And it was supposed to be a sketch show basically around a theme of, of basically Jesus is an entertainer and it's actually more about showbiz life than it is about the Bible or anything. But it was supposed to be like a group show. We had invited a whole bunch of people we knew to write a sketch and a one guy wrote a sketch about Jesus's birthday, where Joseph is there trying to have a happy birthday with, with a young Jesus, and then God shows up and kind of steals all the thunder, as gods will do. And, and then, so that gave us the idea to make the show about Joseph, as this put-upon father, who's raising this kid that isn't his and kind of life the life of Joseph, which we never get to see.
[00:06:06] So we took all these different sketches and kind of built a story out of it. And that was our very first Fringe show. But I'm also a graphic designer and had been doing graphic graphic design work. And I was friends with Cheryl Kimmi who runs the Fringe and, I guess I was complaining a lot about their printed program, which was basically just an Excel Sheet dumped onto a piece of paper for people to try to figure out what show they wanted to go see. And so I offered to help the next year after that, to do their program for them and have been doing it ever since. I've been at it every year, honing it down and trying to get better and better programs so that people can find the shows they want to go. And so, and that led to other administrative roles with Fringe. I basically volunteer and help out what they need to do and work behind the scenes that way.
[00:06:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And every fringe producer who comes through Kansas City is super grateful  to have Bryan because Bryan, you are very good at articulating exactly what helps to capture someone's attention. If you're not familiar with the Fringe Festival, anyone who's listening, there are hundreds of shows to choose from every year traditionally. And so Bryan is always really good at helping producers who might not have the graphic design or writing background to sort of say, "Hey, here are some best practices to get people's attention and, you know, do this, don't do this." So anyway, we're all super thankful to have Bryan on board, to say that as a blanket statement, because it is true. So thank you for taking a spreadsheet and making it beautiful. That's such a great story. Go ahead.
[00:07:49]Bryan Colley: What happens is Tara and I-- usually most of the shows we've done at Fringe Tara and I write together, and so after the playwriting is done, she will, she directs all the plays. So she would go off with the actors and she will direct a play. So I'm, as a playwright, I've got nothing left to do. So I put a lot of my attention to marketing. So I apply my graphic design skills and I do the marketing. And I guess I had a few successful shows, so Fringe thought I was some kind of a marketing guru. So they kind of have me work with marketing for Fringe as well and help all the other producers market their show. And I help as much as I can, so.
[00:08:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes and we appreciate it. So definitely. And yeah, I love the story especially of your first show and how that came together. And that sounds so fascinating to come from a perspective that, like you said, we don't get to hear. So I like the imagination behind that. And so that was 2008? Or is that when you first saw the Fringe.
[00:08:54] Bryan Colley: No, that was 2008 was our first show.
[00:08:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And then after that, you've literally produced at least one per year. Do you ever run out of ideas? I mean, obviously you don't, but how does that writing process work for you?
[00:09:06]Bryan Colley: It varies, of course, with each show. Sometimes we plan way ahead and have ideas going in to the show. We usually don't start talking about the next year's Fringe until after, you know, until that that show is done. And then we start talking about, what are we going to do next year? And so it usually takes about a year to write a show. Sometimes we'll have an idea in advance, but usually not. So it's just kind of looking for that thing that we have not done before, is basically looking for an idea or a concept or a style or something that we haven't done yet, because it's really easy to just... Well, well, you might notice is most theater companies are a company and they have a name and they produce shows and there's some at Fringe, theater companies that come back every year and produce shows
[00:09:54]But you'll notice with our shows practically every year, it's a different theater company name that we use on the idea that once you established a theater company as a name, you're pretty much locking yourself into doing a certain kind of show. So this theater company will do this kind of show and you know what to expect from them. And we didn't want that. We didn't want to be a theater company and we didn't want to be locked down into saying, this is what we do. We wanted to... actually people not know what's going to come next and not know what to expect. And so we changed. We make up a theater company every year and this theater company we make up would produce that kind of show.
[00:10:35]But it's been interesting because sometimes we will go back and reuse the theater company name, like for our show this year. Our second show we did at Fringe was called The Lingerie Shop, which was sort of like this kind of feminist fantasy kind of thing, comedy, and the theater company we, we used was called the Fourth Wave Theater, which is like a feminist reference and, and that was all well and good, but now we're doing a new show that also has this kind of feminist theme. So we're using the Fourth Wave Theater Company has come back and is producing their second show. So that's kind of how it was. And then on years where we don't know or where, what we're planning to do falls through, and we have to do something else, then we call it Plan B Production.
[00:11:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Perfect.
[00:11:28] Bryan Colley: And it's happened twice, I think. Yeah. It's twice that we've had to fall back on the Plan B Productions.
[00:11:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's brilliant.
[00:11:36] Bryan Colley: Sometimes things don't work out.
[00:11:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed, especially in the art world, especially with live theater. Yup. Well, that's awesome. I, I don't think I realized that, but that makes more sense, 'cause I'll, you know-- once you start participating in Fringe shows or the festivals long enough, then you know, you sort of start to get to know each other. And it's really fun. There's like a lot of comradery with Fringe and, and it makes so much more sense that you're under a different title every time. 'Cause there would be times where I'd be like, "Yeah, which one is his this year?" And that makes sense. It's because you use different theater companies. That's funny. I love it. And that's smart! 'Cause like you said, it doesn't tie you down to anyone genre or topic or style. Like I just, yeah. Interesting. I like that approach.
[00:12:26] Bryan Colley: I mean the most common thing we have in our shows is that we wrote, wrote them, but there've been two shows that we didn't write that we've done. So even that doesn't hold true, and I guess you could say Tara directs them all, except the one we did last year where she was the star. So we had other directors.
[00:12:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. She has a background obviously in directing and acting as well. Did you guys meet through theater or through different means?
[00:12:54]Bryan Colley: Yeah. After college I started working with the Gorilla Theater, and basically I got out of college. I was looking for stuff to do. One of my other college friends was doing Gorilla Theater and invited me in and I just started doing it, whatever they needed to be done. A lot of it was sound design or running the sound, soundboard. They didn't have anyone to do that. And eventually it was like, well, we need to market our shows better. So I started doing marketing. I eventually ended up on the Board of Directors and doing like the financial stuff and writing a grant. And basically it was just, this is what they need. So I'll step in and help out. But anyway, one of the last Gorilla Theater shows I did was directed by Tara. And, and we'd met on a Gorilla Theater show right before, or maybe it wasn't Gorilla.
[00:13:42] We met. She'd done some Gorilla shows. She did some other shows. We met back in the nineties doing theater. And then we, but she was just an actress then, and I kind of pushed her into her directing in going into Fringe as a director. And partly because she wasn't happy with how theater was done where she wants more of a process kind of thing, where she wants to work with the actors more. And she never got that as an actor. It was always just kind of like, "here's your blocking, you know, your lines, let's do a show" kind of thing, and there's not really a process to it. So she brings that process when she does the Fringe shows. I suppose we probably have more rehearsals than normal, but, but we always give actors a lot of input into the final process.
[00:14:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, that's nice. I think it's nice 'cause it sounds like it's much more up her alley, much more her style of interacting and producing these plays. So that's, that's great. I mean, that's such the, the nice benefit about being able to have your own productions that you produce and, you know, she's working with you as the writer. So, you know, if there are any differences in interpretation, y'all can work that out. And I mean, that sounds like a pretty good, good partnership right there.
[00:15:00]Bryan Colley: Yeah. That's what I mean. I'm, I'm more open probably than anyone to changing the script and improving it and doing whatever. And because she's a co-writer, she feels complete freedom to just change whatever she wants to change. She doesn't have to even ask me if it's a good idea. So, yeah, it helps that way if you want to do a process, if you want to have more of a process in developing a show. Like that it helps to have the playwright there and to be able to just change whatever you want.
[00:15:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Absolutely. Well, and then, so I know that you guys have a show that you're obviously producing for this year's Fringe Festival, how are you at the filming stage of it yet? Or are you guys still kind of rehearsing and getting, getting it up to where it's ready to film? Where are you in that whole process? And maybe just a little bit about your show-- a little teaser.
[00:15:56] Bryan Colley: A little teaser... it's already recorded. It's actually the show we wrote for last year's Fringe before COVID happened. And we were all ready to produce it. It's called "On Account of Sex" and it's about the, the long process to get, to pass the 19th amendment, where the women won the right to vote, and in 1920. And of course, 2020 was the hundred year anniversary of the amendment. And so that's kind of why we plan to do the show for 2020. And it's the only time we've ever written a show that was timely in any way. And so of course, all of our plans went awry with COVID and we weren't able to produce the show. We were just getting to the point of starting rehearsals when, when COVID happened and we decided we didn't want to do the show in any kind of virtual way, any kind of like a Zoom kind of thing. So we just said, "Well, we'll do it next year."
[00:16:56] And now here we are a year later, and we're still not having a live Fringe, so we still aren't able to do the show. But back in August on the anniversary of the 19th amendment, we did a, like a reading of the play using Zoom. And so we just had a one night only, this is the anniversary, so we're going to do and we put together a reading of the show. And so we still have that recording and we're going to use that for our show for Fringe next year, or this year. And then hopefully next year we can actually produce the show.
[00:17:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh yeah. I definitely miss in-person theater. I'm so grateful that there are ways to adapt to the times, but yes, I, I miss I miss in-person theater. Well, that shows sounds fantastic. I can't wait to watch it. I'm obviously super interested in that subject. And I just think that it's such a great thing that you're addressing and talking about. So that's, that's awesome. Thank you for doing that. And typically find out ticket links and things like that what, early July? I'm trying to remember.
[00:18:04] Bryan Colley: I think tickets go on sale July 1st.
[00:18:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay, perfect. So yes. So Brian, if there's people who want to watch the show and, and/ or connect with you, is there a good way for them to be on the lookout for that?
[00:18:17]Bryan Colley: They should just go to kcfringe.org and they can sign up for the mailing list and be informed of everything that's going on.
[00:18:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. And then your theater company this year, plus the title just one more time. So we're, we're squared away, ready to watch it.
[00:18:34] Bryan Colley: Right. Our show is called "On Account of Sex" and the theater company is Fourth Wave Theater.
[00:18:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yes, we'll definitely be on the lookout for that. Thankfully with the virtual format, now it's so accessible, so you don't even have to be local to Kansas City anymore. You can literally watch this from the comfort of your home anywhere. So yeah, definitely be able to look out for that. Bryan, I'm curious, you know, you've kind of led a very artistic life with your different ventures. And I'm, I'm curious if you have any advice for someone who might be interested in doing something maybe a little bit on the side. I mean, you have your graphic design as well, but maybe for somebody who is thinking about producing a show at some point, but just hesitant. What advice would you have for somebody like you?
[00:19:21]Bryan Colley: I would say you just have to go there. Don't don't hesitate to go and make a fool of yourself. When we did the Jesus Christ, our motto was "forgive us for, we know not what we do." So and that model still applies to everything we do, because we always try to do, we try to do stuff that we don't know what we're doing. We, we try to do something we haven't done before. So almost every show is like, "Well, I don't, I don't know what we're doing this time, but we're doing it." And whether, you know, 'cause we have done musicals, we have done an opera, we have done a variety of different shows. We did a show in a planetarium. So every time it's, it's a new experience for us. So we're learning every time and it's, and it's basically like doing it all over for the first time.
[00:20:07]Fringe is great for that. I mean, that's the best thing about Fringe is anybody can just go in and do something and, and not only is it a welcome environment for that, the, the audience is welcoming to that too. They're not, they're not paying $50, $60 tickets and expecting a big professional show. They know what they're getting into. They're very forgiving of mistakes. They know the format, they know what Fringe is and, and they know it's experimental and a lot of people doing it for the first time. So it's just kind of, that's it just a place to go and do something, do whatever, whatever, whatever you fancy and, and, and the, that it's, it's wide open to whatever you want to do. It's like any, any crazy idea will, will fly there. So.
[00:21:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Yes. Love it. Yep. Just go do it. I like it. And I, I do agree. I think Fringe is one of the the best outlets that I've found. And it's, it's not very cost-prohibitive to produce a show through Fringe too. And I know a lot of times that's a concern when you're first starting out. So yeah. Fringe is a great connection. There are Fringes literally all across the world, so definitely try to find whatever's local to you and see what the process is like, because I think you'll find it a lot-- I mean, it's a lot of work-- but it's a lot more accessible than you think it is. So.
[00:21:36] Bryan Colley: And the hardest part, I think, for people doing new-- for people just getting out there for the first time, especially if you're producing something for the first time, the hardest part is finding an audience and finding people to come see your show, because nobody knows who you are and you don't have this loyal following. So that's another thing Fringe is great for because there's already an audience there. There's people going to shows and looking for something to go see. So it's a lot easier just to find an audience and get people to see your show.
[00:22:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I'm just curious, I'm sure that there are moments that stand out to you, either witnessing someone watch your art, or you participating in someone else's art, but that just sort of stand out as this moment that mattered. And I'm just curious what that might look like for you if you have any examples that come to mind.
[00:22:27]Bryan Colley: Oh, well, there's probably a lot of those moments. I mean, I've, I've seen a lot of shows that have blown me away and just really impressed me. And they're not always the biggest, the best. In fact, they're very rarely the big, biggest, and best show. It's usually the little scrappy productions and kind of stuff you have to seek out that have really impressed me. It was just creativity and, and theatricality and kind of stuff because they don't have, you know, a full staff and a full shop and can build sets and do all the traditional stagecraft. They have to be creative and come up with different ways to do things. So there's been a lot of stuff over the years that's really blown me away and I try to incorporate. You know, as a playwright, you, you typically think of the playwright is like, well, they have these words and they write the dialogue. And, but as a playwright, you have a lot more tools available to you to do that because you can say, "I want this character to dance. I want this, I want there to be music here. I want, you know, this should be poetry."
[00:23:36] You have all the theatrical tools at your disposal that you can pull in and use in your play. So, so I try to be aware of that. If I want to use mime, if I want to use masks, if I want to do this or that you, you want to be aware of what's out there and be able to use, utilize all of that and make something that's theatrical. You don't need a huge budget to produce theater. You just need to be creative about how you approach it so that you can, you can tack tackle big subjects. You know, I keep telling myself someday, I'm going to write a play that requires a set. And it hasn't happened yet. So, you know, you just, you find other ways to do things when you're, when you're-- and, and audiences, I think audiences like that. I think, I think there have been people that reacted to our shows and it just like, they, they liked the creative approach and, and I know some of the shows, a few of the shows I think have reached a higher level, what you typically expect from a Fringe. So I wouldn't say all of them do, but I think a couple of them have.
[00:24:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I like what you're saying about the sets. And I think that that is such a, an interesting dynamic of, you know, like, you'll go and see a Broadway production or like a Cirque du Soleil show or something like that. And the sets are integral to the choreography and, and all of it, and it's amazing. Like, it, it blows you away just because you think, "Oh my gosh, the creativity in that." But then, like you said, you'll go this local theater company or a dance company or whatever, and it's kind of art speaking for itself and doesn't have all the glitz behind it. And sometimes that's really impactful just that way. 'Cause you're, you're not necessarily distracted by the sets or the props or things like that. You're really kind of more focused on the art itself and that's where some of that brilliance can shine through. So I actually like your, you know, your challenge for yourself of "how do I create this and not use sets? How can I be creative and think about this in a different way? And what would that look like if I do that?" So kudos to you. That's awesome.
[00:25:46]Bryan Colley: Well, yeah. I mean, it's partly because, I mean, my plays are not getting produced by big theaters, so I don't have that experience, you know, to draw from. But, you know, I always, when I'm writing, I'm always thinking, how could this, how can this be produced as cheaply as possible? I'm not writing something that requires a huge budget, you know?
[00:26:09]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Yep, absolutely.
[00:26:13]Bryan Colley: My probably worst sin is, is-- it's hard. I find it hard to write anything with fewer than five actors. So it always seems to end up at about five actors or so, five or more. So, you know, if you really want to write cheap theater, you can't have that many actors, you know, and especially if you're doing Fringe shows and there's artists out there who are professional, and this is all they do is Fringe and they travel around the country or around the world and do, do their Fringe shows. And usually these shows are one or two people, you know, because they have to be able to travel and travel cheaply, you know, and be able to produce it as cheaply as possible. So, so people have always told us we should take our shows to other Fringe festivals, but logistically it's just really hard when you have five actors who all have their own schedules and trying to pack a show up and, yeah, it's just makes it really tough.
[00:27:12]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, I can, I can relate to that. It's, it is challenging when you have a little bit of a bigger group of people and you're like, "Yes, we're going to travel." And then you think about all the logistics and you're like, "Well, maybe not, maybe not right now." But yeah, no, that is that's really cool. I really like learning more about your process. It was so interesting to hear about, you know, the fact that you use different theater companies and why, and you know, your stance on all of the different things. So thank you for sharing all of that. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.
[00:27:48] Bryan Colley: Okay. Three questions.
[00:27:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Three questions. Okay. So the first is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:27:58]Bryan Colley: Okay, well, I think art, in the grand scheme, art is, is how we communicate. It's, it's the most advanced form of communication. I mean, there's the obvious, you know, language-- you write a book and, and use words, and that's the obvious communication. But, and, and that works great if someone can speak that language, but not everyone does. And art is a way you can communicate that goes beyond language. And, and even as a playwright, of course I'm using words, but, but theater as a, as a way of communicating, it's, it's, it's, it's not just using words to tell a story. It's, it's putting, putting a scene on stage and communicating that experience. So you can communicate the experience, you can communicate emotions. I mean visual art is the way to communicate, you know, how do I describe the color blue? Well, I can, I can do a lot of words during it to tell you what blue is and never really explain it, but I can show you the color of blue and I can do, you know, a painting that shows you something you haven't seen before and communicates new ideas and thoughts and experiences. And I think that's kind of what art is all about and what, you know, it's what brings us together, humanity together, more than anything else.
[00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:29:37]Bryan Colley: Well, that's a, that's a tricky question. I mean, I think the role of the artist is to, to offer ideas to the world and hopefully they can offer an idea. No one's thought of before. And of course, you know, everyone is born ignorant, so everyone experiences new ideas all the time in the, in the course of their life. It's not like there's this one set of ideas everybody knows. Everyone has a different experience. So, so everyone has a way to experience art and some people gain something from it and other people don't because maybe they've already experienced that or, or they don't understand it, you know? So, so you need a wide field of art out there because there's just different art for each person.
[00:30:23]So but you know, it's, you go through life learning things, you get an education, you read books, you, you know, I'm a media junkie. I watch films and I listen to music, you know, it's consume, consume, consume. And I think at some point you want to contribute to that or you want to give back and it's like, well, I've learned all this for what reason? It's like, so that I can take my experience and my knowledge and offer my ideas or my observations on that. So that's where art comes into play, I think. And I think it's something everyone can participate in. It's not just for professionals. Everyone can be an artist and offer something to the world.
[00:31:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah. And then my final question, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's title, show notes, the inspiration, just something to give the viewer a little bit of context as to what was going on in the artist's mind. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but it doesn't provide the context. And so it's left solely to the viewer to decide what they will.
[00:31:47]Bryan Colley: Well, I think it depends on the art, I think, but I generally think exclusive. I think art should stand on its own and speak for itself and not require context. But as I just said, everyone has a different experience. So if you don't provide context, somebody may not understand it or may not be interested, but that's fine because you're, you know, art's, art's not for everyone. It's for those who need it and what you're offering somebody out there might need and might react to. And that's what you're going for. But so, but I think the art should stand on its own, but I see no problem with providing context, if you want. And some things are better with context and some, some the context doesn't matter, but if you provide the context, it's only for those people who are really wanting that context, or really want to know more. I don't think it should be a prerequisite. I think people should experience the art and say, "Wow, that's really interesting. I want to know more." And then go after the context. I mean, that's how I approach it anyway. It's just like, I find something that interests me and then I want to know more about it and do the research. But, but if I do the research first, it just kind of...
[00:33:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it impacts the way you view it, for sure, no matter what. I mean, it couldn't not, there's your double negative for the day. Yeah. And I, yeah, that makes complete sense to me, the way that you were talking about it. I'm curious, when you produce your plays, do you guys provide any sort of program or is it, or, or if it's a program, is that just sort of like, Lisa was played by so-and-so and Daniel was played-- you know what I mean? Is it, do you provide context when you do stuff or not?
[00:33:32] Bryan Colley: We always do a program, of course, ' cause actors love to have their bios and like to think and sometimes the program is more fun than others. I wouldn't say they really provide context. And I know when we did the opera, we provided the libretto so people could read what was being sung because, you know, it can be hard to follow. Not that they could read during the show, cause it was dark in the theater anyway, but at least they can go out afterwards and read what they were singing if they want to. So yeah, it depends on the show, what, what we think the show needs. Sometimes it needs more. I know Tara has a real disdain for director's notes. So we don't really do that. We might provide just some background, but mostly we just put the actors' bios in and maybe add some fun stuff if we can think of it. So.
[00:34:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's totally great. And, and like you said, it's, it's completely up to each individual artist. So again, no wrong answer. It's just really interesting to me to hear different people's approaches and their reasoning behind it 'cause I think, you know, it's, it is subjective to the artist. It's subjective to the art itself. And so I just, I'm always just fascinated by, by what people say about that. So great answer. I loved it. Yeah. Well, thank you again, so very much for being here today, Bryan. I really, really appreciate it. And I do highly encourage anyone who is interested in Bryan's work to definitely check out this year's Fringe Festival. Again, tickets are supposed to go live in-- we'll just say early July, just in case anything, but just keep your eyes open for that kcfringe.org. And then yeah, definitely take a look at that.  Well, thanks again, Brian, that was so much fun to chat with you today. I'm looking forward to seeing this production, of course. And I appreciate you. Thanks.
[00:35:23] Bryan Colley: I guess we should mention that the Fringe Festival itself will be July 18th through August 1st. Those are the actual dates you can actually watch the show.
[00:35:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you for that. Yes. Yes, exactly. So that will give you your timeline for how long you can watch it. So you'll, you'll have plenty of opportunities to grab those tickets and watch the production. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:35:53]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:36:03]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 060 - Christopher Boorman

In today's episode, I welcome Christopher Boorman! Christopher shares his most meaningful art-related story about learning to appreciate Bob Dylan and his music, and what that journey has led to, along with his own experience becoming a professional speaker. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is the logo for Christopher's speaking business!)
 
Get in touch with Christopher Boorman: https://www.facebook.com/BoormanSpeaks | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwiz0LWnWsYxyhy671sdmmg 
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Episode 60 - Christopher Boorman
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.
[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.
[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am excited to have as my guest today, Christopher Boorman. He is a Christian speaker originally from Queens, but has been spending a lot of time in Connecticut. And I'm just so excited to hear from him and learn from him. So thank you so much for being here today, Christopher.
[00:02:34] Christopher Boorman: Thank you, Lindsay. It's a great honor to be here. Thank you for that.
[00:02:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you would share just a little bit maybe about your background, how you got involved with art. I know you have a very particular story to share, which I'm excited to hear about later, but also maybe just start with a little bit about you.
[00:02:52]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Well, as you mentioned, I was born in Queens and when I was nine years old, my parents moved to the suburbs of Connecticut. Thankfully they took me with them. I still consider myself a native New Yorker though. As you can hear, I don't have the New York accent. But I like to say that I still have that New York attitude, and over the last 20 or so years I've spent in the financial services IT world testing computer systems for upgrades and bug fixes. And over the last five years, writing specs for system improvements. And while I'm looking for my next gig in the gig economy, I'm starting a side hustle as a Christian speaker, and I am a huge fan of music, always have been. In particular, I have been a Bob Dylan fan for well over 30 years.
[00:03:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Okay. So I'm sure that there is quite a bit to unpack there, but yeah. So I'm curious what, since, since you didn't spend-- well, obviously you spent, you know, your first little bit of life in New York,-- but so you, you consider yourself still having that sort of mindset. So I'm curious what you mean.
[00:04:06]Christopher Boorman:  I... New York is probably considered, but at least by some the the capital of the universe. It is, you know, it's one of the largest cities in America. It is home to, cultural institutions, you know, like Radio City Music Hall, the, the Museum of Art and, it, it just feels like almost like being part of royalty. Being from New York, I always had such an awe of the city, even as a young kid, going with my father to work around Christmas time there. They would have a special treat. You could bring your kids into work. Going into downtown Manhattan and seeing those skyscrapers, everything just seemed larger than life. I mean, it was New York. I mean, it was the place to be. It's the place where everyone wants to go to strike out on their own, find fame and fortune, especially in the arts. Christina Stanton, she moved to New York to start a career in theater.
[00:05:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is such a cool place to be. I have only ever-- well, the longest I've been there has been three weeks-- but it was very cool to just be a part of that incredible community. Yeah.
[00:05:23] Christopher Boorman: I think part of it has to do with-- I always like to say-- context is everything. Growing up in the suburbs of Connecticut proved to be very difficult. I got along with my classmates fine in Queens, New York. There was never any problems, but it wasn't until I moved to the Connecticut suburbs that I started being bullied in school for whatever reason. And as you probably know, children don't need a reason to bully each other. They just, maybe it's because that was the new thing. Maybe because I was scrawny. And those first few years were extremely tough for me. And sometimes we tend to look to the past with rose colored glasses. And maybe that's why I appreciate New York so much is because my first few years in Connecticut were very different.
[00:06:12]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. Ugh. Yeah. Sorry to hear that. But yes, I, I-- that makes sense to me, at least the stark contrast from the-- from Queens to Connecticut. That makes sense. Well, yeah, so I know you have been a Bob Dylan fan forever. I would love if you would share a little bit more about maybe how you got connected with his music and sort of what inspires you.
[00:06:35]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Ever since I was a young kid, even in Queens, I loved music. I loved singing songs in church, singing songs in school. I loved listening to the radio when I was in the car with my parents or when my mom had the radio on in the kitchen as I was preparing for school. So I was, I was a young child in the late seventies. So I grew up on the Mellow Gold singer/songwriter, soft rock kind of music, because that was popular at the time. Well, that and disco, but when my family moved to Connecticut in the early eighties, we got cable TV for the first time. And from my nine year old self, that meant MTV. And I loved it. Years ago, I read an article that described MTV as the original iPod shuffle, because part of the enjoyment of MTV was wondering what they were going to play next.
[00:07:38]And so between MTV and the local pop radio stations, I was exposed to a bunch of different newer artists. This was not the late seventies music that my parents enjoyed. This was early eighties music. This was music for my generation and it was a stark contrast to what I had grown up. So I spent hours and hours and hours-- I mean, basically every free moment --watching MTV. You know, even if I had it on in the background, doing my homework, and I just loved watching the videos and the creativity that went along with the music. It was a perfect pairing. And one music video that particularly captivated me was "We Are the World."
[00:08:26] Now for your younger listeners, "We Are the World" was a song written as a fundraiser for relief for a famine in Ethiopia at the time and it was created in one all night recording session. I believe it was in February of 1984. So this was right after the Grammy Awards and it included a who's who of pop and rock artists past and present, or present at the time. Think of Billy Joel, Hall and Oates, Huey Lewis, Tina Turner, Willie Nelson, and the music-- the list just goes on. And beyond the purpose of it-- which was noble, it was charitable-- it was also a great song. Yeah, it was co-written by Michael Jackson who in the early eighties was kind of on a winning streak, and being a music fan, even as young as I was at the time, I could identify just about every singer that was featured in that song, except for a few.
[00:09:30]And one of the few singers that I didn't know at the time was this guy who didn't appear to be singing at all. I mean, he looked like he was talking his way through the lyrics and you know, everybody's heard that the parodies of the Bob Dylan voice, you know. "This is a choice we're making." Now keep in mind, I'm nine years old at the time. And I think "Who is this?" I mean, he's got to be somebody. I mean, he, he didn't just wander into the recording studio off of the street-- and I mean, well, maybe he did, I, I have no idea-- and I was just so confused and curious. Well, being nine years old, you're, you're at that age, and you're taking piano lessons and eventually I got the sheet music to "We Are the World." I thought, "All right, let me go through all the list of names on the sheet music and whatever name I don't recognize, well, that must be him."
[00:10:24]So I go through the names and I say, all right, this guy is either Harry Belafonte or Bob "Dye-lin." Well, later on I, later on, I find out it is pronounced Dylan, and I later learned that he's the guy who wrote "Blowing in the Wind," the Peter, Paul, and Mary song. Oh, okay. Fine. That's a good enough song. I still don't see why I should care about this guy or why anyone else does? Well, the following summer "Live Aid" happens July 13th, 1985. I didn't have to Google it 'cause I remember it. It was the biggest concert in history, benefit concert or otherwise there, there will never be a show like it. You can't do a show like that today and you never will.
[00:11:16] And I remember the whole thing like it was yesterday, it was a nearly 24 hour concert on three continents and MTV carried the whole thing. And I was glued to that TV all day long. I got up early on a Saturday to watch the show 'cause I didn't want to miss it. One of the locations was Philadelphia. I believe it was, I think it was the JFK Stadium, and the grand finale of the show was everybody was going to get on stage and sing "We Are the World," but just before that, the penultimate act was Bob Dylan. I remember watching and he kicked off his set with a song I didn't recognize. And then he followed it up with another song. I didn't recognize. And finally he concluded his short set with "Blowing in the Wind." Okay. I recognize that one, but he sang it in that same talking voice of his, you know, "The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind." Yeah, I still didn't get it. I still didn't get why this guy was so popular, but I saw the way the crowd was reacting to him. There was an entire stadium full of people, 50,000, 55,000, everybody in a hushed reverence.
[00:12:45] And I saw who was backing him up. It was Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood from The Rolling Stones. Now I certainly knew who they were and I know that they don't, they're not going to back up just anybody just 'cause they ask. I mean, Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood all at the top of the music pyramid, at the top of the food chain. And then I noticed Dylan's placement in the line. He went on just before the grand finale. It wasn't Madonna. She played earlier. It wasn't Duran Duran, wasn't even the reunited Led Zepplin. I understood who Led Zeppelin was. I understood them getting back together was a big deal, but they, none of them went on before the finale and each of them was arguably more popular than Dylan was at the time.
[00:13:35]And so based on all of this, my 11 year old brain just came to the conclusion, "All right. I don't get it, but this guy has to be important in some way." And so I filed it away in my head and fast forward a few years later, I'm in high school and a classmate lends me their cassette copy of Bob Dylan's "Greatest Hits" and I listened to it. And I, then I said, "Oh, yeah, I get it now". " Like a rolling stone, the times they are a' changing. It ain't me, babe." Subterranean, homesick blues, and I thought, "How does this guy write so many great songs?" And maybe it's because I was a little bit older, a little bit more cynical, a little bit more world weary as world-weary as you can get it at 14 years old. I understood Dylan's voice better. It was the exact opposite of something that was polished, something that was fancy and perfect. Dylan's voice is very much imperfect and flawed. Just like me. And that's probably when I became a big fan. And so I started to read everything I could about him.
[00:15:05] And of course I started buying the albums and eventually I owned them all and then some. I haven't listened to them all, but I own them. And of course it becomes a full-blown obsession. And now I can't understand why everyone doesn't like Bob Dylan, as much as I did. And actually my appreciation for Bob Dylan inspired me to pick up a guitar again. And for about 10 years, I was in a local band called Red Embers. We actually have an, an album on iTunes, and I'm very, very proud of that. And of course, I started going to the shows whenever Bob Dylan would come into town. My first Bob Dylan show was at The University of Hartford in 1997. And since then I've seen him about 65 times give or take. I stopped counting. And I've seen him in five different states. I've seen him in clubs, arenas, even baseball park.
[00:16:12] And I remember one particular show in November of 2000. It was in Kingston, Rhode Island at The University of Rhode Island. Bob played a song called "10,000 Men." And, you know, you could be forgiven for not knowing that song. It was released on an album called "Under the Red Sky," released about nine years prior, in 1991-- an average song from a below average album, but he had never played it before and he hasn't played it since. He only played it that one time. And I was there and that is my claim to fame.
[00:16:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. Well, first of all, I love that song, "We Are the World." I think it's just such a beautiful song that just unifies and brings people together. And I just have always appreciated the story behind it and what it was intended for, and then just watching the video is just so cool. And, you know, it's since been remade, you know, of course, but it's just so good. It, there, there's nothing quite like that song. I think it is really powerful. So I could totally see why that was sort of the catalyst for your quest to know who Bob Dylan was and, and go from there. But oh my word, you have seen him-- so I'm so impressed with how many times you've been able to go and see him and yeah, how cool, so unique. And I also love it.
[00:17:53] Christopher Boorman: I personally funded Bob Dylan's 401k plan.
[00:17:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, you know, everyone needs one, so there you go. But also cool to have gotten that, that pretty unique opportunity to hear that one song live and, like you said, your claim to fame. But oh my goodness, so interesting. So I'm, I'm curious, are you-- obviously you've gotten a chance to really follow what he does, but have you also found out more about his life? Is it part of-- like is your respect for him, is it solely based on him being a really fantastic artist? Or is it also like who he is as a person? Or I'm just kinda curious, you know, all of that, about all of that.
[00:18:42] Christopher Boorman: That's a great question for me. And I think it comes down to a personal decision for everyone is, "Do you separate the artist from the art?" And, and for me, I don't. I take it as a full package, because the arts for me is an expression of the artist. It comes from the artists, it is a part of them. And so for me, that can influence either positive or negative, depending on what the artist is like as a person. I, I remember reading that Bob had actually become a Christian in 1979 and he was ministered to, or discipled by, one of my favorite Christian artists named Keith Green, who is probably the only Christian artist that I really listened to. And Bob actually recorded three gospel albums, and being a Christian myself, those-- while not being his best-- I think it resonates with me in, in a very unique way. Then I would say " Shot of Love," the third and final gospel album, is my favorite of the three and probably one of my favorite Bob Dylan albums. I, my mom-- she, who was just wonderful-- I, she said, "Oh, wouldn't it be great if you could meet Bob Dylan."
[00:19:56] And I explained to my mom, if you're the kind of person that goes and sees Bob Dylan 50 or more times, you're the last person that Bob Dylan wants to meet. His security team might want to meet me. Bob does not. Insane. He was asked in an interview, you know, "What do you think about the fans who, who follow you around and see you multiple times every tour?" And he said, "I think they need to get a life." And I don't take that too seriously. And I can understand why Bob would say that. But there's an old saying, "never meet your heroes." And we, we see that quite a bit. I was kind of shocked to hear that Ravi Zacharias, who was a great Christian apologist, who passed away a few months ago, came out after his death that there was some sexual harassment in his past. And it certainly surprised and saddened me, but you know, artists are flawed human beings just like their fans. But I do, if there's a long, drawn-out way to answer your question, but yes, I do consider the artists as part of the art and it does contribute to my appreciation for them.
[00:21:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, that makes complete sense. So, yeah. And so I, you know, speaking itself is an art form, I think. And so I'm, I'm interested to hear more about what you're talking, what will, what you're doing now, and that is trying to build up this maybe --currently side gig-- but maybe it could be full time of being a speaker. And so I'm curious. What kind of speaking are you doing? Is it motivational? Is it funny? Is it, yeah, I'm just kinda curious about what your next step is.
[00:21:41] Christopher Boorman: I would say that my specialty is teaching, which is not necessary thoroughly motivational. Others are much better than I. I prefer expository speaking, teaching particularly, you know, maybe Christian apologetics or history news, which is not to exclude motivation. I think the more I learned about Jesus, the more motivated I am to follow him. I attend a Thursday night a Bible study at a local church and occasionally I will do a lesson, and whenever I do, you know, people always seem to get a lot out of it. They always seem to appreciate it. And I've been told that, that I have a gift and I'm the kind of person who doesn't believe in himself until someone else does. I have to hear it from somebody else. And I have to probably have to hear it a couple of times before we actually start to believe them. Yeah. Anything that's complimentary about me and so I said, "Okay, you know, maybe I can do something with this gift of speaking and do something other than just go around telling people how they can double their sales in six months, you know, to do something of real value to people, something that would -- I hate to say change people's lives, 'cause I'm not the one changing their lives. God's the one that changes their lives-- when maybe I can reach people in a way that maybe somebody else could not".
[00:23:08]And so that's where I'm at right now. And I, and I took a chance. I said, "All right, I'll, I'll start a YouTube channel, you know, and just upload short little sermons to it and see if anyone, to see if anyone cares." Yeah, it's it's taking a step, you know, it's trying, you know, if this is meant to be, then I've got to make the first move, however small. It's not just going to be dumped into my lap. I got to start something, take that first step. And, and even just taking that first step, even just in the trying is a victory of sorts.
[00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Every step towards your next goal is definitely a victory. So, yeah. Kudos to you. And so I'm curious, are you, are you hoping to do this professionally in a sense of becoming like a pastor, or are you thinking more sort of-- I'm just curious to know where, where you would ideally like this to take you, if, if it's meant to be.
[00:24:14]Christopher Boorman: Yeah. If it's meant to be, a friend of mine at the Bible study, he kind of jokes. He says, "You know, maybe someday, you know, Pastor Chris." And that just sounds at this point in my life, at this point of me trying to make something out of this speaking career, that is just so overwhelming. Just hearing those two words next to each other, Pastor Chris it's, it's overwhelming. Who knows? Maybe someday. I, I certainly would not say no to it. Obviously. That's not something that you can just send in an application and get an interview, and great, you're hired. I mean, there's, there's some school involved and it takes a couple of years and it takes a couple bucks to get there, to be appropriately educated.
[00:24:58] That's not to say I would shut the door on that. But if it does happen, it's not going to happen tomorrow. Maybe in the meantime, I can just be a guest speaker on maybe, maybe if the pastor goes on vacation and they need somebody to sub in and give a sermon in a local church for one week, or maybe at a religious group. You know, like the, I dunno, the rotary club or something like that, and just be a traveling itinerant pastor for a few years while I'm going through that education to become a full-time pastor. That's, that's one path that I see.
[00:25:36]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah.
[00:25:37]Christopher Boorman: Ultimately it's up to God and then he's going to direct my path, and I've learned that it's best that I just get out of God's way. When I try to do things myself, I generally screw it up and royally.
[00:25:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, don't we all? I mean, it's helpful to have a guiding hand, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, well, I'm sure there are some of our listeners who would love to connect with you and, and yeah, watch some of these YouTube videos that you've created. How could they connect with you?
[00:26:11] Christopher Boorman: Sure. Just go on YouTube and type in Christopher Boorman Speaks and that's Boorman with two O's, and they can find my YouTube channel and enjoy some videos. And I'd love to, for people to stop by leave a comment, say "Hi."
[00:26:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Excellent. Well, great. I absolutely love your story. It's so unique, just the way that, you know, you explored this artist's work in such an interesting way, like how you were inspired and then, you know, where it kind of led to, and just being a lifelong fan of Bob Dylan. That's pretty cool. So thank you for sharing that really interesting story. I just, I'm so-- I love that. I just love the fact that you were inspired and then you continued to pursue sorta that passion. So thank you for that. And I'm excited for you in this new endeavor too, and speaking, and you know, of course wish you the very best. I'm, I'm rooting for you, but I would love if it's okay with you to ask you the same quick three questions that I ask all of my guests.
[00:27:19] Christopher Boorman: Absolutely.
[00:27:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:27:26]Christopher Boorman: Generally speaking, I would say art is some kind of documented experience or a worldview that is intended to evoke either thought or emotion in the observer.
[00:27:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, I like it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:27:46]Christopher Boorman: Well, for me, the role of an artist is to share their art. It's to share with other people how they see the world, to share how they feel about the human experience. I hate to sound trite, but I'm reminded of that question, "If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around, does it make a sound? So if you're creating art and you don't share it, then are you really an artist? You, you might have a hobby and that's just fine. You can make art for yourself. But I think for it to be art in its truest form, to be an artist, art needs to be shared, it needs to be enjoyed.
[00:28:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, is-- do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, referring to inclusive as an artist who puts their art out into the world and provides  some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, just something to kind of help the viewer along. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide what they will.
[00:29:07]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Well, of course either is acceptable. But based on my personality type, I'm more of a right brained, logical kind of person. So I prefer inclusive. I would say one of the goals of a work of art is to provide some kind of understanding of the artist and what they're trying to say. So if a, if a work of art is particularly bleak or complex, then I think some context is very helpful. It's certainly helpful for me. If I'm being asked to make up my own meaning for a work of art, well, then, "Who's the artist here," you know? What's the difference between this work of art and a bunch of random words and shapes and colors or sounds. Yeah. Either way. I'm the one ascribing meaning to it. So I prefer some context, especially for more complex works.
[00:30:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. Okay, well, thank you so very much for being here today, Christopher, I really enjoyed your stories and our conversation, and I wish you only the best in your future speaking career, whether that be as a pastor or like you said, sort of like an interim sort of role, but, but good for you for, for starting it and, and for your YouTube channel and all of that. And I'm just excited to see where that goes. So yeah, kudos to you and thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.
[00:30:43] Christopher Boorman: Well, thank you, Lindsey. This has been a great honor and a pleasure for me. Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time, and success for your podcast.
[00:30:52] Lindsey Dinneen: I appreciate that so much. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:31:07]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:31:17]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 059 - Sharon Glassman

In today's episode, I welcome Sharon Glassman! Sharon is the creator, designer, and singer/songwriter of Smile Cards, and has a rich career history as a journalist, voiceover artist, podcast host, storyteller, and author. Her belief in serendipity, where "preparation meets opportunity," has led her along an amazing creative journey. Hear her share about the highs and lows of her life, and how she brings joy to the world through her homemade cards now. (Fun fact: the cover image is a photo of one of Sharon's cards!)
 
Get in touch with Sharon Glassman: www.smilesongs.com/vip | www.instagram.com/smile_songs 
Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com 
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
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Episode 59 - Sharon Glassman
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created.
[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.
[00:02:11]Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sharon Glassman. She is a multimedia artist and she is also the designer and songwriter of smiles, songs, cards, and gifts that sing, which I am just so excited about. So excited to hear her stories. So thank you so much for being here today.
[00:02:41] Sharon Glassman: Thanks so much for chatting with me, Lindsey, I'm really excited to chat with you.
[00:02:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay! Well, I would love it if you would share just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started. And I know you have had such a very cool career, so many different unique opportunities. So I just can't wait to dive in and hear all about them.
[00:03:00] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Well, the first image that comes to mind that I feel like started me on the path here, creating cards and gifts that are designed to make folks really feel loved and seen and appreciated and happy, is sitting at my parents' kitchen table around the age of 10 and doing an illustrated book of an original poem. And I was cutting up pieces of paper and covering some of them in tinfoil to make this sort of like multi-layered 3D illustration thing. And I think that was the first step to getting here was sort of breaking the rules. But finding ways to make things combining different things, kind of like peanut butter and chocolate in an arty way to make folks feel good.
[00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Okay. And then I know you've done a vast number of things and I can't wait to hear about them, but do you want to speak more to what you're doing right now to start?
[00:03:53] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So right now, I have a line of greeting cards for just because reasons about reaching out to a friend, plus the usual stuff like birthdays. I'm working on a new baby card right now. I'm super excited, holiday stuff, moms', dads' day, that kind of stuff. And the way that they sing is that I design a QR code and I link it back to an original song that I write to amplify the colors and the design and the message, because you know, when you're out in the world and something makes you feel happy, it usually doesn't just touch one of your senses with art. It usually engages several of them. So if you see a sunny day and there's a blue sky, and then the breeze blows and you smell a flower, that's a whole bunch of senses combining. And my challenge and a commitment has been, how do I create that feeling for folks?
[00:04:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Neat! And I love the idea of including multiple senses in this experience, because I think, oh, that just makes it so much richer. Oh, neat. What a unique idea. Okay. How did you come up with that?
[00:05:04]Sharon Glassman: It was an invitation. It was a creative challenge. Very briefly, because my career is a little non-linear, I started out being a terrified style writer in New York City. I'm an introvert by nature. So I function well when I'm listening, when I'm observing, and I really do want the answers to questions, but at that point in my life, I was just way too scared to go to a fashion designer and say, "Hey, let's talk." I was so scared about asking the wrong question. And that led me to hack my career for the first time. And what I began to do was tell stories on stage. I would ask people about their love life. I would ask people their love stories. I would ask questions, but I somehow wasn't scared when it wasn't journalism.
[00:05:49] And then I would go share them to make people again, feel loved and appreciated for who they were. I traveled around the country doing this, and that led me to move to Colorado where I became a performing songwriter. And at that point, what had happened was folks in the audience, a lot of them introverts and kindhearted, highly sensitive people would say to me, "That song makes me feel really like you're talking to me and telling me about my best self. If only I could take you home and put you on my wall or have you around, because what I'm seeing when I hear you is so inspiring too." And I thought, "Yeah, let me think about that for a second, because I think I can make that dream come true."
[00:06:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. How cool. Well, and I, I'm so intrigued. Okay. So you went from just feeling like you said, kind of fearful and introverted, and so, so was that kind of a discovery of that maybe journalism isn't for you? Or do you still dabble in that at all? Or what kind of happened with that component?
[00:07:00] Sharon Glassman: Well, I think it's continued in a number of different ways. I feel like the words that I'm using on my card are a form of journalism because they come from really hearing what folks hear about and need. It's a little bit of copywriting too, which is something else I've done. But what happened for me was the minute that I found my comfort zone, which is an introverted comfort zone, I do things differently. I would never be the kind of journalist that you could send out to cover a five alarm fire or that kind of thing. But I am still a journalist who, on occasion, will do a feature about somebody. I just was doing a column in our local paper called "Ask the Introvert," where I was exploring lifestyle issues for introverts. It comes and goes-- the journalism part-- but really what I think it did was to train me to be observant, to take notes, to recognize a soundbite when I hear one, which again, leads to the lyrics in my songs and the messages on the audio.
[00:08:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Yeah. So it just has continued to impact you. And of course, those skills that you developed have obviously been useful throughout, you know, your career, even now. And that's, I think really cool how sometimes, you know, a path that we discover isn't for us can still-- those skills and those, those learning experiences that you had can be brought forward into something else. And I think that that's such a magical thing about recognizing that maybe the circumstance wasn't ideal, but this is still pretty cool what you get to do as a result, you know. Yeah, that's just special. All right. I have so many things to ask you about. Okay, so I know that you've also been a voiceover artists for cable TV. Can you share a little bit about that? How cool.
[00:08:51]Sharon Glassman:  Sure. And that was a case of serendipity-- What is it? Preparation meeting opportunity. I had gone from being a journalist. I was a copywriter for a cable, big cable TV company. And again, it wasn't my happy place. There were moments that were really exciting that again, would train me about graphic design that I would use later, but I was pretty unhappy and I decided to get some training doing voiceover work and I'd put together my demo tape, my little cassette at that time. And I was down in the subway and I bumped into a guy from the cable company I worked for and he said, "You don't happen to do voiceover, do you? 'Cause I've got this thing that I think would be great for you." And I said, "As a matter of fact, here's my brand new demo tape." And he said, "Okay!" And he called me back and he said, "You're hired for this job." And at the same time, I went to a meet and greet opportunity and got signed by an agent. So I had an agent and a job and that let me transition away from my last corporate job and start sort of creating a career. That's a bit of a mosaic. So there are things that I focus on or I'm doing more at one time. And then there are kind of the backup singers of my career that then let me do things like voiceover, or maybe write an article while I focus on, you know, the business that I'm working on.
[00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, so cool. I love those stories of just that sort of serendipity, you know, things coming together, but it's not just random chance you had to do the work too, you know, like you had this demo tape, but that was something that you wanted to pursue and then opportunity intersected. And it was just cool. I love those stories. Awesome. And then I also know that you have been a podcaster yourself or co-host of a podcast and have a pretty cool connection there. Do you want to chat about that too?
[00:10:45] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So after I moved to Colorado-- again, something that looked like a door closing or possibly burning down happened-- I was living out kind of in the suberbs. And there was a fire in the house next door that convinced me it was time to move. And I ended up moving up into the Hills to house sit and when I was doing that, somebody said, "Oh, you know, one of your neighbors is a writer for the "Golden Girls."" And I said, "I didn't know that," but I actually announced the Golden Girls on lifetime television back in New York on cable.  It's kind of like that one degree of separation. So they introduced us and we were talking. Yeah. And, he said, "Yeah, I'm going to be working on this podcast for an insurance company. It's branded, branded content as they call it in the business for baby boomers. Would you have any interest in helping me?" and I was like, "That would be awesome." And before you knew it, I was co-hosting it. And we ran for a year on terrestrial radio, both in LA and Colorado. And then of course, as you know, with podcasts, around the globe and perhaps beyond into the universe, that was pretty cool.
[00:11:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That is super cool. Yeah. And, oh my goodness. Yes. I just love all these different, cool little things that you've gotten to do. And I know you've been an author as well. And you know, obviously as a journalist-- that, I mean, is obviously a form of writing-- but have you written your own book or what kind of authoring have you done?
[00:12:13] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Again, the, the, the winding road that is my career led to some pretty nifty things. And I think we had talked just a little bit earlier that after I left journalism, I sort of hacked it and began telling reported stories on stage. And one story that really caught my attention --we're back in New York now-- was something at the time called Operation Santa Claus that had an amazing history. In New York City, there's a very large central post office. And it's a very dramatic building. It's a stunningly beautiful Beaux Arts building. And what I found out was that every year around Christmas time, they would take letters to Santa written by kids and families who needed help with gifts for themselves or gifts for each other, and they would make them available to the general public to answer. And this had been going on since the Great Depression. It started when people at that time needed help and postal workers would actually fulfill those letters. And then over the years, it grew into something just spectacular. And my joke about it was that the person who would just steal your cab a second earlier was stealing it to get to the post office to answer a letter. So it kind of brought out the best in New Yorkers.
[00:13:22] And there were more letters than there were Santa's Secret Santas at that time. And I thought that that was-- I could help. So it's a combination of reporting on the story, but then also I had had an experience that I-- I tend to like to use my personal experiences, to show my foibles in a way to invite people, to not be scared of making a mistake, but to get involved and to help. I had gone to the post office and I come from a Jewish family, not a religious family, but a culturally Jewish family. So we weren't allowed to have Christmas. It was like the great forbidden guest. And this was a way for me to sneak in and be an anonymous Santa and get my Christmas fix at the same time.
[00:14:01] And so I answered three letters and I made a ginormous mistake. I was just old enough to not know what the kids were wanting. And one of my letters asked for something, asked me for a First Down jacket. And I got very emotional. I was like, "This child has never had a down jacket. They want their first down jacket." I'm going to go get this the puffiest, warmest, dorkiest, you know, jacket that I can find. And the story that I would tell to invite other people to participate would be after running around town and getting this really-- as I said-- big puffy jacket, I managed to get it into the deadline and get it to the post office, mail it just in time, only to walk outside and see a really cool- looking little kid wearing a very thin down jacket with a big label on it that said First Down.
[00:14:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh! Oh, no. So it was a brand. It wasn't a style.
[00:14:55] Sharon Glassman: Right, right.
[00:14:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, jeez Louise. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh.
[00:14:59] Sharon Glassman: Right? And it took me back to a Christmas experience I had had as a kid when we, you know, when I was still a believer in Santa, when I wanted a Easy-Bake Oven. And Santa brought me a Suzy Homemaker Oven, and I was like, "What's wrong with Santa? Why doesn't Santa get that there's an enormous difference? One of these things is really cool and one of them is super dorky. I'll never be like that when I grow up." Oh yes, you will.
[00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. I love that story. And what a cool organization. I didn't, I wasn't aware of that. Is that in more cities than just New York or, you know, is that like more of a-- because it should be a national thing. That's really cool.
[00:15:35] Sharon Glassman: It should be. Well, and I traveled around the country, I, that was the book that I published. It was called "Love, Santa." I got a book deal with Warner Books, which is now I think Grand Central Publishing. And we turned it into kind of a holiday gift book with a how-to at the end. So you can have your own "Love, Santa" party. I traveled around to companies and you know, how folks in companies would be like, "Oh, it's Secret Santa time. Great. I'm going to get you a soap and you'll get me a lip balm. And we'll both be like, what else? "But this, instead I would come in and say, "Let's maybe not do that.  You can answer letters to kids and families together and buy food and clothing and beds." And so that was remarkable. And I traveled around the country with those letters from New York, but I believe that there must be, or were other programs like that throughout the country. It's just people are so good at heart, and this was a great way for everyone to come together and make a difference. And it was, it was a pretty great experience.
[00:16:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is so good. And I'm totally gonna read that book because I just, I was so inspired by that story and yeah, that, that is cool. I, I hope that it is something that I can participate too locally or start or something I'm like, "Oh my goodness, this is just fantastic." Well, yeah, I'm sure that you have, you know,  obviously such an amazing career and, and all of that. And where do you see yourself kind of going from here? Obviously you're building your business, which is fantastic and a huge time-taking endeavor, but are there other things that you're continuing to kind of dabble in on the side, or things like in the future you want to kind of pursue too?
[00:17:11] Sharon Glassman: Well, I have a musical duo with the man I call my fiddle beau, which is a little bit of a pun, the  B E A U . I am a nerd. I'm a nerdy punster. And we're called the Jamison's Duo and we play jazz-inspired or jazz-influenced bluegrass. He comes from Kentucky, he comes from the bluegrass state. So we continue to do that. And that's fun on the side. Yeah. And right now I'm moving into wholesaling for my business. And so it's interesting because, because I'm writing music as well as designing products. I've learned how to record at home. And so I'm working on the next set of songs for the next set of designs for the next, you know, working on Christmas 2021 right now, and looking ahead to 2022. So I'm really in a learning phase as I expand from retail into wholesale. And that is really where my time and focus is now. But you know, there's always the creative pursuits of like baking stuff and cooking stuff, 'cause you got to eat while you do all this art stuff.
[00:18:13] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so true. And if you make it fun, you know, by being creative, then it's, it's a lot more enjoyable of a process and doesn't feel like a chore.
[00:18:21]Sharon Glassman: Yeah, and I think that these things inspire each other too. I just, I just did a new greeting card that I'm really excited about and it says, "Season your life with love." And it has a bowl with hearts in it, and you know, the salt shaker putting love into your food, which then puts love into your life. And I think all these things are really tied together. It's that sensory, cross sensory concept again.
[00:18:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I absolutely agree. And so I'm curious --I'm sure that you've had so many moments during your career so far, during your life so far, that kind of stand out, but I'm, I'm wondering if there are specific ones that stand out in your memory either when you witnessed somebody experience your own art, or when you experienced somebody else's art, where it was just sort of this like moment that mattered. I need to file this away and remember.
[00:19:10]Sharon Glassman: Wow. Such a great question. There are a couple, I have a couple of both, I guess. There was a moment-- there was a stage storyteller whose name was Spalding Gray, and he really defined the genre of standing up on a stage and telling a story, his were usually from his life, as opposed to reported usually, but he was just a master of that genre and seeing him definitely changed my life, both creatively and just inspired me. And I had a big art crush on him and actually got to almost meet him after a show. He performed at someone's home in Philadelphia, but introvert was too scared to talk to him, which then of course became a story about not talking about the person that you're talking to, the person that you want to talk to you.  Seeing him was life-changing. Hearing a lot of the music that I hear here in Colorado, we're very close to a town that I call the Nashville of Colorado and the musicians around here that we just get to hear and play with on a daily basis-- that's been a life-changing experience. Yeah. I mean, and seeing them like in the grocery store, I mean, you're like, "Oh, hello, music person." And now with pandemic zooming, we're able to see shows coming in from Nashville on a weekly basis. So we have our little Chinese food/ Nashville, bluegrass situation going on in our house on Friday nights, where we bring in Chinese food and then sit on the side of the table that faces the TV, down in the TV room, and dial up insanely talented, like world-class musicians and it's kind of like we have a front row to these concerts, so that's pretty exciting.
[00:20:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is super exciting. And it's so fun too, because you know, okay. So obviously the pandemic has been very challenging for many, many, many people. And there, there are a lot of difficult things as a result, but at the same time, to hear from artists who've kind of learned to adapt and pivot and, and now like the world opened up, you know, and we have these super cool opportunities to see a concert that we might not have been able to before, or would have been very challenging to try to get there or something. And so it's, you know, on one hand, it's maybe not the way that we would have wished that it came about, but it's pretty cool what we get to do and who we get to see and experience that maybe otherwise we wouldn't have.
[00:21:49]Sharon Glassman: I do think the digital aspect of the arts right now was probably trending to this place but was definitely jump-started by the situation that we find ourselves in. I think more and more, and especially as an introvert, again, getting back to this, so things that other people find fun, for me personally, it can be just exhausting. I need to go to bed for a day afterwards, just because I've had all the feels, and all the feels like kind of exhausted all the energies. The digital world for me is a very comfortable place. And again, going back to the QR codes that make my card sing, finding that digital piece. And before that, I had done a podcast that I published on bottles of wine with a local winery here, again, using QR codes.
[00:22:37] And so I had an entire cast of local people who are actors and non-actors performing this novel that I wrote with, which I wrote songs for ,and the way that we were able to deliver it was-- and I'll do a little parenthetical-- I think being in the same place at the same time increasingly is not a thing that's viable for lots of people at lots of situations. So where you used to try and get the largest live audience you could to see what you were doing, and that meant that you, it was working. I think now we're kind of pixelated and each of us has a desire to see something when we want to see it or here to experience it. And that may be where art is going is more of a one-on-one albeit digital connection.
[00:23:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. Well, and I think there's value to that too, because it makes it feel more personal and yeah, just a little bit more of an accessible, sort of intimate way of experiencing art, and that is special. Yeah. And you're right, because, you know-- so I'm a dancer and I have a professional dance company and we would define success on some level, just on a practical level, I would say-- but yeah, the number of tickets that we sold to our shows-- and it's interesting because, you know, on a more fundamental level, our whole goal is to bring joy and inspiration to people. And so that can happen in a lot of different ways, even more so now with us, you know, kind of pivoting even our own direction and filming and doing that kind of thing. And it doesn't, yeah, the  reach is, is different, but it, it's exciting.
[00:24:20]Sharon Glassman: Well, I can't wait to watch you guys dance online. You have to send me a link. So this is really exciting to me because now I love watching dance and yeah, I would love to see that now. And I know you, and now I'm like super excited. Like I can't wait to see you. But this is, this is how this happens through a podcast, which is a digital medium. And if it didn't exist, we might not have connected. 'Cause I don't know the next time I'm going-- I've never been to Kansas City and I don't know that you've been to Longmont, Colorado-- but we're connected and now I can see your stuff and you can hear my stuff. And who knows, maybe there's a collaboration down the road that comes from that or some other things. So I think that is a really exciting 21st century arts creation and progress that has so many ramifications. I don't think we know them all yet, but we are exploring them, which is pretty cool.
[00:25:07] Lindsey Dinneen: It is. Yes. I couldn't agree more. I'm so excited about yes, all of these artistic collisions. I'll put it, put it that way. And, the opportunities that can kind of come from a more open world, in a sense, and it's, it's exciting, good things are coming. Well, I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you and, you know, support and follow your work. Is there a way for them to do that?
[00:25:34]Sharon Glassman: Absolutely. In terms of social media, I tend to be more of an Instagram person, and on Instagram I am smile underscore songs, but yeah, you can always get to me and find the Insta link and all that good stuff on my website, which is just smilesongs.com. And for your listeners, if they would like a little discount on cards and gifts that sing, you can sign up at smilesongs.com/vip, and then you'll get my news and find out what's going on and get the 20% off coupon and all that groovy stuff. So I think those are probably the two places and you can always reach me. There's a contact button there. So you can say hi, or ask me a question. I'm always excited to hear from people and find out maybe what they want. Like maybe there's a, a card or a message that they need in their life. And I'm always excited to hear about that.
[00:26:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's super cool. Well, yeah. Thank you also for being so generous. I am so excited that you shared that with us and we can go and support your work. So thank you for that. I love it. Well, I always ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with that.
[00:26:55] Sharon Glassman: Oh, yes.
[00:26:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, good. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:27:04] Sharon Glassman: Wowza! That's sounds like one of those great, like questions of all time, like, you know, what is the meaning of life kind of thing? How do you define art? Wow. I think it's a feeling generated by a selective something. So it could be a painting. It could be a dance. It could be a song, but I think it's that combination of created experience and emotion.
[00:27:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Love it. Excellent. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:27:46]Sharon Glassman: I think if you truly believe it, see it, want to share it. That I think is probably what makes art, art. There's something there that's just intrinsically real.
[00:28:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit. Is do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration versus an artist who puts their work out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's exclusive in the sense that it's left entirely up to the viewer or the participant to see what they will.
[00:28:43] Sharon Glassman: Wow. That's really interesting. Okay. I think both of those things. I'm going to go for both of, both of the, all of the above, because I can imagine-- I'm just picturing an art gallery. For some reason, I can picture walking in an art gallery and actually the exhibit being a series of paintings that have no title cards whatsoever, followed by a room where we see the same paintings with the title cards. And that experience would be super cool. Somebody do that and then let us know where it is so we can go. 'Cause that would be really cool. 'Cause you would be looking at the art and making up your own story and then you would be going into the other room and seeing either a curated version of that or the artist version of that.
[00:29:27] But you know, so many paintings are called "Untitled." And I know that that gives us some information about like, you kind of go, "Oh, that's super cool. That person called their thing "Untitled." They're really pretty. Let me look at that. Well, it's a white, all white canvas called "Untitled." Dude, that's so deep." It's interesting. I think they're both interesting experiences, so I'm yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to stick with my, all of the above.
[00:29:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect. Love it. Okay. Well, Sharon, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate it. And I loved hearing your stories, career, your, your life has been so interesting. And I just love hearing how all the different things have sort of intersected and collided a little bit into what you're doing right now, and how it's all kind of, you know, the writing, the singing, the storytelling, just all of those things are sort of woven into what you're doing now, and I just think that's really cool and special. So thank you for sharing your art with the world. I think it, I know it matters. I know it makes a difference in people's lives. And I, I know that I just appreciate that you do that. So thank you. And thank you again for being here today. This has been so fun.
[00:30:36] Sharon Glassman: Lindsey, it's been delightful chatting with you, and I cannot wait to see you dance. This is really exciting. New friends, new friends, new art, or like I'm excited. It's going to make my day happier. I love this idea of spreading the joy through art and conversation.
[00:30:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yay. Yes, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:31:07]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:31:17]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

Episode 058 - Anthony Saldana & Jason Figueira

In today's episode, I welcome Anthony Saldana & Jason Figueira! Anthony and Justin have been collaborating ever since they met in college, and are the writers, filmmakers, and producers of two documentaries to far: "Straight Off the Canvas" and "We're Ordinary People." Their work showcases blind artists and the way that they perceive and create beautiful artwork. (Fun fact: the cover image is a little behind-the-scenes of fliming "Straight Off the Canvas!")
 
Get in touch with Anthony Saldana & Justin Figueira: www.facebook.com/staightcanvas | www.twitter.com/straightcanvas 
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Episode 58 - Anthony Saldana & Jason Figueira
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am just so excited to have as my guests today, two wonderful people. They are the producers and creators of the documentary, Straight Off the Canvas," and they are Anthony Saldana and Jason Figueira and I'm just so happy that you all are here. Thank you so much for being here, guys. And I can't wait to dive in.
[00:01:00] Anthony Saldana: It's good to be here.
[00:01:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome.
[00:01:03] Jason Figueira: It's wonderful to be here.
[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, I would love if you would just share a little bit maybe about your background and your story and what got you involved and in art in general, but then I know you guys have this powerful documentary that you've recently produced.  I would just love to hear all about that.
[00:01:25] Anthony Saldana: Sure. We are two guys from Queens, New York. My name is Anthony and I was born in Queens, New York, and really was always interested in being a creative person, and really didn't find the right outlet until college. I was in, in high school. I had a lot of creative energy, but didn't have the right outlet. And then in college I met Jason. And we just formed such a great friendship. We really didn't do much like television or class, too many production classes together. We went to Queens College together and really formed a great friendship during that time. And we both graduated in 2008 and from there, you know, I started a career in customer service in New York City, but never left my, my love and passion for video and television. And I would always have an idea working in my head, and I share ideas with Jason, and we've been kind of collaborating together over the last has it been like 12 years, 13 years, Jason?
[00:02:36] Jason Figueira: Yeah, I would say about 12 years, actually.
[00:02:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's incredible.   You met in college and then went from there, and wow, so this friendship has just evolved and grown over the years and, and now you guys make really cool things together. That's awesome. So I'm so curious. I know, you know, Anthony, you talked a little bit about dabbling in art and how art has been a part of your life. And Jason, I'm curious, how has art been a part of your life as well? Or what's your background and story too?
[00:03:09] Jason Figueira: Well ,in high school I had a different story. I wanted to work in animation.  I wouldn't say I was bad at drawing, but I didn't have enough patience to sit down and learn how to draw professionally. And I had all these great ideas in my head of what I wanted something to look like, but just getting it down on paper was so difficult. And I'd see kids who, it seemed like they had a natural gift for drawing. And I was like, "Aw, man, I'd like to do that." But when I went to college, I was just going to major in computer science and just do creative work on the side. And I decided, you know what? If I'm going to do computer science, I'm going to end up being here for a long time, because I'm not good at math either. So I went through my careers handbook and I saw Media Studies, and I said, you know what? I have, I wanted to do something creative. Maybe it should be my career first and foremost. Because my heart wasn't really in computer science. I love technology. I loved working with computers, but that wasn't really going to be what I wanted to do as a main career.
[00:04:17] And so I joined Media Studies and I just went in, took some of the beginning classes and from there on out, everything about the field just interested me. And when I met Anthony, it was in one of, one of the computer science classes. And,  when I talked to him, I was like, "Oh, we're going to get along. It really seems like we're going to get along here." And from there on out, we've just been, you know, doing creative work because it's, it's what we love to do, you know, plain and simple. That's just really what it is. So, yeah. That's how I got started in here and I'm still looking to write for animation and I just, you know, do it in my spare time too. But thanks to media, I'm able to develop my creative energy even more so. That's where I fall in this story.
[00:05:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's fantastic. Well, and I love your-- I can relate to this so much because I'm sort of, one of those want to be really good fine artist, but I... nope. Nope. It's just not in my wheelhouse. It's like I see-- I remember my art teacher back in-- oh, gosh, I think of middle school-- just, I mean, bless his heart. He tried so hard with me and I just could not translate what I was looking at on to a paper. Just never made sense.
[00:05:41]Anthony Saldana:  I think I can relate.
[00:05:43] Jason Figueira: I completely understand.
[00:05:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. It's so funny. And I just have so much respect for fine artists who can just look at something and go, "Oh yeah, I can totally see where all the shadows are and how you need to, you know..." I, anyway, just that's an aside, but yes I can relate is really what I'm boiling this down to. So. Okay. So then you guys obviously hit it off and, you know, started collaborating. So have you guys done more than the documentary? And I can't wait to hear more about that specifically, but also before that, have you worked on other projects together as well?
[00:06:21] Anthony Saldana: Yes. Our, our first documentary that we did was a documentary about visually impaired activists here in New York City called, "We're Ordinary People." I don't have a visual impairment, but I was just interested in how blind people perceive art. And I picked up a book one day and it was "Ordinary Daylight" by Andrew Potok. And he is basically an artist who is going blind and is, is so affected by that. That traumatic turning point in his life that he does a, a therapy of where bees sting his eyes for him to gain some recovery. And reading that book really affected me. So I told Jason that I wanted to do a documentary about blind people and knowing that there's not too many films or TV shows about that show blind people in such a positive way or at all on television. So I felt that it was important to do a documentary about, about blind activists and what, what blind people need here, you know, in the community. And then I can have a right to do a documentary about blind painters. So I'd kind of pitched that idea to Jason and he was excited. He was actually attending grad school at the time. So. It gave him an opportunity to get out there in the field.
[00:07:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. That's such a cool story. And also I'm cringing so much about the bee stings. Oh man.
[00:08:01] Anthony Saldana: Right, right. And I was too, and that's why it just affected me so much. Do you know, you think about like, yeah, I just picked up the book thinking, "I want to know how a blind person perceives art," and that's that, you know, I got to find his story. So.
[00:08:18] Lindsey Dinneen: That's so cool. And so Jason, can you share more about your reaction when Anthony shared this vision with you and sort of how that spoke to you and what that kind of led to?
[00:08:31] Jason Figueira: Sure. So when Anthony called me one night and he was telling me about his idea that he wanted to film, I was looking for way to start practicing what I had learned in grad school. I think I'd been there for about a year, a year and a half. And I was going to Hofstra at the time and they had just started their documentary program and I was very eager to really test out my skills and, you know, really see what I was capable of. And when he told me about this story, I was very intrigued because I never really stopped to think about how would a blind person perceive art. And I said, you know what? This is, this is something I'd like to learn about too. So it wasn't just a way for me to practice my skills. It was a way for me to learn about an aspect of a community I had rarely ever interacted with.
[00:09:28] And I said, you know, this is, this is one aspect of documentary is-- you're kind of like an anthropologist and you're going to a new culture you've never interacted with before. And you're learning about everything about them and, you know, their different characteristics, personalities. And I think when we went on this adventure, I think we came out with a new appreciation for the blind community, especially in the art field. And especially after this, doing this film, I got to say that even some of the work I've seen from blind artists, it reminded me of high school. They were like those kids who could draw. It was amazing watching someone like Elizabeth Castellano make a painting. It was absolutely beautiful. I just said, you know what? I had never stopped to think about this, you know, and this film was like a window into learning about how art was not just a visual medium, but really a medium for our other senses. And I, I gotta say I'm really glad I went with Anthony on, on this film and supported him because it's been an excellent adventure to say the least.
[00:10:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I can imagine. That is so cool. And see, that's one of the things that I just love the most about art is the fact that it does open our eyes to other perspectives and other experiences that maybe we haven't gone through or don't have a lot of knowledge of or whatever. But when you are able to bring art into the mix and share your stories through it, it's so cool how it can connect people and make you think about things in ways that you wouldn't have otherwise, maybe. That's really cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So then you also have done "Straight Off the Canvas." Can you tell us more about that?
[00:11:35] Anthony Saldana: Yes.  So once I completed the "We're Ordinary People" documentary about the blind activist, you know, I was really excited because that documentary itself won a number of awards. And I felt like it was, it was time be able to tell a story about visually impaired artists. So  I was trying to research about artists who had visual impairments here in New York City. And I, I found a news article for the New York Times about an artist who was legally blind and teaching art in the New York City Public School System. And she had a website, so I contacted her and her name was, is Elizabeth Castillano. And so in the moment I sent the email to her, she was so excited. And the funny thing is that, that I never knew that. You know, I thought it was going to-- I didn't think that that journey was going to take 10 years-- but that process of, you know, calling her and say, "Hey, can I interview" that that happened in 2011.  So the documentary itself is really about not only Elizabeth, but we went out to Lavelle School for the Blind, which is in the Bronx, New York.
[00:12:50] And we interviewed the art teacher, Jessica Jones, who was also blind, teaching her blind students preparing them for an art show. And I also felt that it was important to have the Art Beyond Sight, which is in Oregon, a nonprofit organization that helps make art museums accessible for visually impaired. I really felt that it was very important for them to be them to be included in the film because, you know, it's not just about any classroom-- art should be accessible in the museums. And so we, we focused a lot on that and how art can be healing and a therapy for not just for, for blind people, but everyone. Art is a therapy and, and can really help us through some dark times, especially during the pandemic.
[00:13:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Jason, do you have anything to add to that experience from your own perspective?
[00:13:56]Jason Figueira: I have to say when I, I think-- one of my favorite parts of the film, one of my favorite parts of production rather-- was filming the art show because watching some of their creations-- it, it was truly beautiful. I know we were filming two of their students who created Maleficent from Disney's, "Snow White." And it was, it was absolutely beautiful. And a lot of the art there wasn't just a project. A lot of the art was personal to them. They were, some of them had mentors, parents, friends that had motivated them to, to basically keep going. And it was wonderful to see not only how beautiful their art was, but how connected they were with it.
[00:14:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Oh my goodness. I cannot wait to see this. I've I've got to hop on this, clearly. That's that sounds...
[00:14:52] Anthony Saldana: We've got a VIP link just for you.
[00:14:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Fantastic. Oh, so cool and special. You know, it's so interesting that you, that that was the subject of your documentary. I have a friend here in Kansas City who is a fine artist, and she's brilliant. I mean, I think her work is just incredible, and her name is Katheryn Krouse and she's actually one of the guests that I've interviewed before, but she is kind of in a similar situation, where she is in the process of losing her eyesight and it makes her art so much more vibrant. I mean, the colors that she chooses are just bright and splashy, and she chooses like very joyful sort of, you know, gorgeous settings. And it's just so cool to hear her story, and I think that sometimes, you know, when you don't have the ability to experience life with all of your senses in the way that you might prefer, it's so interesting to hear the perspective or see the art that comes out because it's beautiful and special. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing.
[00:16:08] Anthony Saldana: I definitely wanted to interview, you know, different women with different stories. So, Elizabeth who's a, the main subject of our film, she was born legally blind, and then at the age of 13, had surgery so she would gain some sight, but still is legally blind and has a dog. And I also interviewed Jessica Jones, who lost her sight as an adult due to diabetes. So, you know, everyone has their own different story, but it's really the, I think the point really is that, you know, they, they found a way to continue making the work that they're passionate about. And really that motivated, that motivated us in ways that I never expected when we started.
[00:16:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I'm sure there are some moments either from the film or through your own life experiences, whether it was, you know, watching someone experience your own art or whether you experienced art that kind of stick out to you in your memory as, "Hey, I've got to file this away. This is, this is a moment to remember." Do you two have those stories to share?
[00:17:20]Anthony Saldana: Jason, you want to start?
[00:17:22]Jason Figueira: Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of stories between all of the films we've done. We've been on incredible journeys. I've got to say that the most unforgettable story was when we did our first film "We're Ordinary People," and we had to go to New Jersey to film a blind rabbi, and I remember so well because it was a day that was so beautiful, but getting home was so tragic because we basically took a bus to Jersey and then we had a cab take us to where that rabbi had lived. I think it was in the Demarest and we tried to get home the same way. We were going to take a cab to the bus stop. The bus stop was probably three or four miles away. So we said, "Okay, we're going to take a cab back." We call the cab company and they're like, "Oh no, we're done for the day."
[00:18:20]Anthony Saldana: This, this is before Uber.
[00:18:23] Jason Figueira: This is before Uber, mind you. So we now have--  we looked at each other and we said, "All right, we have no choice but to walk it. We turned on our camera and we just documented our terrible three to four mile hike in the summer, in blazing summer weather and just literally telling jokes as much as we can to get our minds off the fact that we're walking three to four miles to get to a bus stop, and pray to God we can reach there before sundown. 
[00:19:01] Anthony Saldana: We passed a Dunkin Donuts and I thought that I had seen heaven because I had never been so excited to see Dunkin Donuts. And then, and then I pass right by it. And there was a pizzeria. I'm like, "Ahhhh! Water!" I felt like I was in the desert...
[00:19:20] Jason Figueira: It's like in Loony Tunes films when they see a mirage.
[00:19:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. You know what I love about that story too, is, you know, I talk about this quite a bit and, you know, my guests who, who are involved in the arts, which I suppose on some level is everyone. Right? They, we talk a lot about how there's so much work behind the arts and it's so worth it, but the glamour happens 1% of the time and the other 99% of the time is, yeah, you guys having to walk the three to four miles.
[00:19:59] Anthony Saldana: Right? I mean, it's true. And it's on YouTube, the entire walk, we filmed it all. As for me, I have a, more of a... so in 2012, I was in the beginning of production for a documentary and I had a, a really traumatic workplace accident. It was an accident that affected my back and my neck. And it, I was supposed to do an interview with Elizabeth, you know, very, very soon. And I had then tell her that I was, you know, dealing with a medical issue that, you know, I still deal with to this day. And when I called her, she told me that she herself was having personal issues with, with physical issues, you know, with her back. And so we were just like committed. I found a therapy buddy in the person that was supposed to interview, who I really didn't know. And I just said, "Look, I know that this horrible thing has just happened to me. But I really want to tell your story." And in, in her head, she had something really, really traumatic happened to her. And she said to me that she wanted me to tell her story and we really bonded in that moment. And at the same time, Jason was having his physical issue, which we found inspiration from, and is going to be a future film of ours. You want to take that, Jason?
[00:21:31] Jason Figueira: Oh, well, sure. So in 2012 while Anthony was planning his next film and I was, you know, helping out with some suggestions or so, I began to experience early symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder. And I had not known I was obsessive compulsive. I knew what it was, but I didn't know I was obsessive compulsive until I turned 26, and pretty much it exploded out of control and I couldn't stop fixing things. I couldn't do basic functions for myself anymore. I became completely shut in and I couldn't leave my house.  I lived with my parents and I could not leave my house. I couldn't even leave the corner of my house. It was so bad. And I one day went to a priest that we had known, me and Anthony had known, and he recommended I see a therapist. And that therapist said you have OCD. I don't know how to do behavioral therapy. So I recommend you go to Mount Sinai which is a hospital here in New York. It's a pretty well-known hospital and they have a center strictly for helping OCD patients. And I went there and I found out, well, they have a scale from one to 40 of how obsessive compulsive someone is. And on that scale out of 40, I rated about a 39. So I was really bad. I needed take medication and I needed behavioral therapy. So I spent about a good year and a half in behavioral therapy even before I could resume helping Anthony film "Straight Off the Canvas." So it was pretty tough when I was filming with him. I was in the throws of just recovering from my mental illness and it was a very dark period. It was, it really was tough, but thanks to friends like Anthony, you know, I was able to fight it. I chose not to give up and here I am today talking about film on your podcast, right?
[00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much for sharing that and being, you know, honest and vulnerable.  I'm sure that's not a particularly easy thing to share, but I really appreciate it. And, and thank you for that, because I'm know that your story is going to impact so many people and I'm so excited that you all are going to be producing another documentary. That is really cool. Both of you, thank you. I'm just, I'm so inspired by what you all are doing. And I think, you know, documentaries are such a powerful way to share stories and to bring about just a conversation that might be otherwise difficult to have or uncomfortable to have. And it's really cool that what your work does brings art to lots of people in a very unique way. So thank you for doing what you're doing.
[00:24:40] Anthony Saldana: I appreciate that. And, you know, I felt like I had to share our story because the set was misty-eyed like, if you would ask me, like, "What's your dream project?" This is my dream project. And, and there, there was something very emotional about, about being able to film her painting, because  Elizabeth talks about painting as her therapy and that's what gets her through the dark days and, you know, being able to film her painting was that therapy for us. So it's just a, really a beautiful story.
[00:25:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it really is. And again, that's the power of the arts is it doesn't just affect the person who's doing it, but it affects the viewer or the participant. And then those effects just can have a snowball effect for other people. And then that's why, if you feel inspired to create on any level in any medium, please do so, because you just don't know what kind of impact you're going to have on yourself and on the world. You just don't know. Yeah, that is so cool, guys. Well, this is amazing and I'm sure that our listeners would love to, you know, interact with you, connect with you, and also support your work. So is there a way for us to connect with you and where can we watch your documentaries?
[00:26:08] Anthony Saldana: Sure. We're on Twitter. You can find us at, @straightcanvas, on Facebook is facebook.com/straightcanvas. We'll have all our information up on those social media sites. I'm trying to develop a, a website. When it does come up, we already purchased the domain of straightoffthecanvas.com. But right now you can find us on Twitter and we'll be able to update you guys on when the site will be up and ready and when our documentary will be in, in your area, because I want to definitely get it out to Kansas City.
[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. And you have a very  willing and excited audience in Kansas City. I'm not actually from here originally. And when I moved here, I just had this amazing recognition of how supportive of the arts Kansas City is. So you found your people, they will be receptive for sure.
[00:27:05] Anthony Saldana: Now I have a question for you though. So, so you're a dancer, right? Okay. So I'm a single guy. Like what, what's a good dance move I should learn as a single guy?
[00:27:21] Jason Figueira: Just don't fall!
[00:27:23] Anthony Saldana: Cause I got two legs, you know?
[00:27:26] Jason Figueira: But you still, you would still manage to fall with two legs.
[00:27:31] Anthony Saldana: I would! I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to help the single male audience that are trying to get some help!
[00:27:39] Jason Figueira: Precisely.
[00:27:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Well, have you seen the movie "Hitch?"
[00:27:44] Anthony Saldana: Yes, yeah.
[00:27:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. You know the scene where Will Smith is teaching-- gosh, what's his name? The other main character-- anyway, how to dance? And he's like, "You live right here," and it's like a step touch, which is basically like a step to the side. And then you like put your other foot in. Yeah. I mean that, you just got to start somewhere, but honestly my husband's also not a dancer. He wouldn't consider himself to be, I think, in any way. But I think what worked for him was his willingness to try and just put himself out there. And if he looked a little silly, it didn't matter because I was just so impressed that he was trying.
[00:28:26] Anthony Saldana: Okay.
[00:28:27] Lindsey Dinneen: That's my advice. Just be you.
[00:28:31]Jason Figueira:  So will Carlton's dance work too from "The Prince of Bel-Aire?"
[00:28:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh man.
[00:28:36]Anthony Saldana: He's been perfecting that for years.
[00:28:41] Jason Figueira: Look, you got to try somewhere.
[00:28:43] Lindsey Dinneen: You do. And honestly, I think it's the effort that matters more than the results. Let's be real. Yup. Yup. Oh my word. That was fantastic. Yes. And if I come up with any other life advice, I'll I'll pass it along, but that's, that's my initial thoughts. Oh my gosh. Well this has been so much fun. I would love to ask you to the same three questions that I ask all my guests, if you're okay with that.
[00:29:15] Anthony Saldana: Sure.
[00:29:16] Jason Figueira: Sure.
[00:29:19]Lindsey Dinneen:  All right, here we go. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:29:27] Anthony Saldana: Hmm, well, art can be a lot of things. It's something that you can make. You know,  you can express yourself in so many different ways and it doesn't matter the material that you use or the sense that you use. You can make something in two dimensional, three dimensional.  You can use your body as a dancer, like you, Lindsey, you're an artist, even though you say you can't do a drawing, but you can express yourself with your body. It's really about using your soul to basically express yourself to the world.
[00:30:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that.  And I, I love your use of the word "soul" and just the way that you described it, because I always tell people that I dance because it inspires my soul. And I think that that is what's so special about art and, you know, that's why I dance. But other people paint or sing, or, or, yeah. Oh, I love that. Jason, how about you?
[00:30:31] Jason Figueira: I would say I would, I, I remember someone from one of our Queens College courses, he was a Chinese film historian, and he had said that about films that they were kind of like a window into a director's mind. And I think that art in a way is a advanced form of communication. It's trying to communicate something, not just with words, but with sounds, with touch, something that it can appeal to almost all five senses. And I think it's like a window into someone's experience that it goes beyond just saying spoken dialogue we use every day. It's really helps other people. It helps bring them into an environment where an artist would like them to be your image, shaping a whole new reality in a way. And it's amazing what you can do with art. I mean, just from one picture, someone can leave their present day and be transported into a whole new one. So art, yeah, I would say is a very highly advanced form of communication.
[00:31:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:31:52] Anthony Saldana: Tell the truth. Just tell your own truth and also try to find your own. I know that stories have been told and retold, but try to find your own angle to, to put your own expression on, on a different take on a story. But I, I really believe in, in being honest in your work.
[00:32:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I agree. Jason?
[00:32:20] Jason Figueira: I think persistence is also something very important for an artist to have, because when you have a passion to tell a story, you don't give up telling it. There are a lot of obstacles that come up in any different kind-- dancing, whether it's painting, whether it's film or so many things that come up in your way. But as long as you have your passion to tell a story, you will overcome those obstacles. And I'd say, you know, there's an expression: a genius is 90% hard work and 10% ideas. So really it's about how much work you put into it. So I would say persistence is absolutely key for an artist to have, is absolutely a key quality rather, for an artist to have.
[00:33:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I absolutely agree. It's all about the grit behind the passion. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I remember hearing one time somebody said that ideas without action are worthless. And I was kind of taken aback and I thought, "Oh, ouch, that hurts." Like, "Excuse you." But the reality is he was right. You know, you have to have both. So awesome. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive. And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does put their work out there, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.
[00:34:07]Anthony Saldana: I like metaphors.  I love putting in my documentaries open-ended metaphors so that people can-- I don't like to have voiceovers to tell the audience what they should feel. And that's something that Jason and I, we've argued about many times over the last couple of years where he likes to just, Jason will say, "I want to tell them how, you know this..." and a great voiceover. And I said, "Nope, not me." So I hope that answers your question, Lindsey.
[00:34:40]Lindsey Dinneen:  I like that. And, but Jason, how about you? It sounds like you might have a slightly different perspective too.
[00:34:45]Jason Figueira: I think it depends on what kind of work an artist is doing. Some artwork is best left exclusive, you know, that's where their strength comes from. I think it mostly depends on what kind of art that artist is producing. From my style, I like to explain everything because I like to hear myself talk, but the point is, it depends on the project, really, for some projects being inclusive makes it stronger. So it works being an inclusive piece, but there are some pieces that are best left exclusive. So I think it really depends on what kind of project and artist is working on.
[00:35:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you both again, so very much for being here today. I'm so excited to learn about what you all do and also then to, you know, get to experience your art and the way that you're supporting other artists. I think that's really important and I commend you and thank you for what you're doing, and I'm just so excited to continue to follow your work, because obviously this is a awesome partnership that's just going to continue to produce wonderful things. So thank you for bringing art to the world. I appreciate it.
[00:36:08] Anthony Saldana: Thank you for having us. We will definitely send you that movie.
[00:36:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and I highly encourage you to check out their work, and we will catch you next time.
[00:36:33] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Episode 057 - Sabrina Osso

In today's episode, I welcome Sabrina Osso! Sabrina is the founder of Osso Safe and she offers educational workshops about home violence and how to see the warning signs. She is also a dancer, dance teacher, choreographer, and a TEDx speaker. In this episode, she shares about learning to dance as an adult in NYC, the hundreds of auditions she attended, and her own healing journey. (Fun fact: the cover image is of a photo of Sabrina in her own-woman show, "Home Sweet Home?")
 
Get in touch with Sabrina Osso: https://www.ossosafe.com
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Episode 57 - Sabrina Osso
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sabrina Osso, who is the founder of Osso Safe, which I absolutely love the name of her company. And I can't wait to dive in and explore more about how all that came to be. She is also a professional dancer and has had lots of experience in the professional dance world. And so it's just my absolute delight to have you here today, Sabrina. So thanks for joining us.
[00:01:05] Sabrina Osso: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm so excited to be on your show, on this podcast, and I'm looking forward to our interview.
[00:01:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Well, I would love if you would start by maybe sharing a little bit more about yourself, how you got started, maybe a little bit about your background and what you're up to these days.
[00:01:25] Sabrina Osso: Sure, sure. I've had years of on and off therapy to just open the conversation and it's just healing, especially when it comes to what I do  and relating it to dance. But I am a survivor of violence. My father beat my mother on a regular basis and I could not even think about dance growing up.  I had no one to take me and I loved it. I, I had it in my heart and my soul, but I had to put it on the back burner the way, way back burner. So, but I always had it in me and it wasn't until I moved out, actually that I kind of caught up on my life, if you will. And I, I moved out, I, I graduated from college. I did what I was supposed to do, quote unquote.  But I found it very unsatisfactory. I have a computer science degree. And I, I did the corporate thing and, and then my therapist said, "You need to read a book." And that book is called, "Do What You Love, the Money Will Follow." And I, when I read that book, I said, "I love to dance. I'm a dancer. I have to get myself into class."
[00:02:37]So that's what I did. I totally immersed and submerged myself in the dance world in New York City. I was shuffling between Alvin Ailey, Steps, and Broadway Dance Center taking 12 classes a week, auditioning heavily. And then the gigs started happening. I was starting to get gigs and it was very exciting, a lot of rejection, a lot of rejection. And, but I was in the city and it was so exciting and I met so many people along the way. And the teachers that I was taking were very well-established, to say the least. So, and then I began writing my one-woman show called "Home Sweet Home, Question Mark" and I, and basically I play different women being abused. She goes to her good place. That's where the dancing comes in, but then she's pulled back into the terror of violence, but the show ends very strong, very empowering. And I did a lot of research for that show because I wanted it to be entertaining as well as educational. And I could not believe the statistics that I was finding about violence abuse. And I said to myself, "I have to make this into a business. I have to make this into a bonafide business with paid services and products that will really help people, whether you're going through violence or not." So Osso Safe was born from really my one-woman show.
[00:04:10] And I did my one woman show. I was dance. I was teaching dance, actually also I taught dance for 10 years from Pre-K all the way up to high school through adult level ballet, jazz, tap, theater, Latin, lyrical, hip hop. And I, I performed the show with my dance students. I had one or two dance studio owners that allowed me to do that, which I'm very grateful for. The synopsis of the birth of Osso Safe and my dance background, how I started, and I bring dance into schools whenever I do my workshops at university, schools, I find that this taboo subject-- make it un-taboo by introducing the performance element to it because students will digest it better and it's more palatable if you will.
[00:05:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense to me. I, I think that one of the things that I value the most about arts is the fact that it opens conversations that might otherwise either not take place or be extremely uncomfortable to bring up. But when you introduce it through the arts, it has a much more natural conversation that can follow after that. I really like that. I think that's, that's great, what you're doing is so fantastic and it's so needed. And I really appreciate the fact that you're, you're using something that obviously was extraordinarily difficult-- I mean, to put it mildly in your own life-- and then taking that and transforming it into something, just so needed and helpful. So thank you for, for doing that. That's, that's huge. And I I'm, I'm very grateful that you do that.
[00:05:56] Sabrina Osso: Thank you, Lindsey. Thank you. I appreciate that.
[00:06:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, you've obviously had, there are so many parts of your story I'm so excited to dig into, but you know, you were talking about the dance aspect and so it's, it sounds like-- and please correct me if I'm wrong-- that really the majority of your training came as an adult rather than as a child growing up. Is that correct?
[00:06:22] Sabrina Osso: Correct, correct. Yes. I, I wish I was one of those people that started at five years old, three years old, even, or 10 years old. And I just was not one of those people. Like I said, I, I had to put it on the back burner and really-- oh, it was very painful. I just, I couldn't even think about it. It wasn't allowed in my household. And, and then when I, I started training, I started taking classes. I was so free, you know, and I was also heavily clubbing in the city, to say the least. So because my, my favorite, favorite music to dance to was techno, techno, house, tribal, and in the city at the time all the clubs were, they were huge, huge. They were a big, big following. I mean, thousands of people would go to these clubs from Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and the biggest night, Saturday, and even the raves.
[00:07:23] And so I was dancing after class and I was dancing in class. I was catching up on my life, like I said, and I was so free, and dancing is just such a beautiful, expressive form of movement. And it's so freeing and, and I would see the students that I would teach, you know, we would do the recitals and order the costumes and, and do the rehearsals. And I'm like, "Wow, I'm their teacher and I'm doing for them what I wish I had for myself," you know?  And then the different styles and being on a stage and teaching them backstage and, you know, calming them if they were nervous. And so even though I didn't have it when I was young, I kind of caught up with it later on.
[00:08:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it sounds like you really just dove in headfirst, totally immersed yourself and did a, basically a deep dive, intense study into all things dance. So kudos to you for that. That's, that takes some guts. I mean, I think any new endeavor takes guts, but you know, especially in a very competitive city, like New York City, yeah, I just, I commend your, your bravery for just diving in and going for it and seeing what happens. That's great. And then I'm curious, you know, you said that you started auditioning and started getting some, you know, really cool opportunities. What is your most memorable gig that you did?
[00:09:00]Sabrina Osso: I mean, I would have to say I did matinee theater. I did a small tour with a Latin pop artist, similar to, not nearly as big as Ricky Martin, but he kind of really emulated him. And so he did same style, you know, Latin mixing Latin with English and his songs, and the Latin choreography I performed in Lamb's Theater in New York City. And I was told-- or we were told, I should say-- Mark Twain performed there. He did readings there as well as a few other famous people perform there. And, and so that was very memorable. It was a Greek play called "Epimenides.". And I did, I think I did-- if not all of the choreography-- most of the choreography for the show.
[00:09:49] And you know, when you know that famous people have been at that theater, it, it kind of just is-- it's extra inspiration, you know, like you were on stage with these people that had a lot of influence, you know, in the world, performing, acting, singing, dancing. So, so that, that's one of my memorable performances. And I performed the most with my show, "Home Sweet Home," because when I performed it, I was asked, "Oh, wow, that was so great." And I've had to do that like around different venues where I would pull different styles depending upon what the person wanted. I would say, "Sure, I have that. I have a musical theater piece or I have a flamenco piece." Oh. And I did a Latin piece as well, partnering with my, my partner and that, that was the music that I chose and very salsa, very Mambo music as far as the theme.
[00:10:51] And just all the auditioning that I did, Lindsey, I mean-- holy cow, no exaggeration-- I think I went on at least 750 auditions. I'm not even exaggerating. It was between 750 and a thousand auditions. And that includes sending out the headshots, sometimes having to do just appearing and being cut, like, just because you're not the right type, quote unquote. And, and that just really thickens your skin, like nothing else, especially in New York City, you know? I mean, I was everywhere. I was everywhere-- the five boroughs, I think I went as far as Connecticut-- definitely Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, Manhattan, certainly and being on all those stages just to audition. I mean, holy cow. It was grueling. I mean, all sorts of weather, waiting outside, to just have a chance to be seen, to be heard to, to perform improv. I think I even tried out for SNL at the time, hundreds and hundreds of people lined up outside. And, and you had to do skits on the, on the spot or some kind of monologue, according to the theme that it was and, or the theme that they asked for. And so like I said, I totally submerged and immerse myself in, in that world. And, but yeah, I hope I answered your question.
[00:12:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, for sure. Lots of memorable things, of course, as, as I'm sure any artist would agree with. And so, I'm curious, so to write your one-woman show, of course, I would imagine that that was kind of a, probably a really difficult challenge in some ways, because not only are you writing something that's really meaningful to you and important to you, but it's something that happened to you. So how was that writing process? Was it difficult? Was it liberating? Was it, what was it like?
[00:12:59]Sabrina Osso: Yes. A good word. Liberating and healing, I would say. And, and, hmm. Yeah, liberating and healing. It, it was automatic, really. It was automatic. I, I mean, after auditioning and getting gigs and, and I have to say, I found the choreography that I was doing-- not that it wasn't satisfying me-- but I said to myself, I want to do my own choreography. I want to do what feels good to me, you know, because when you're doing choreography, other people's choreography, it's other people's choreography. So, I just said to myself, "I just want to write, I just want to see what happens." So I kind of just, I didn't have any expectations, really.
[00:13:44] I just said, "Let me just write my one woman show." And I knew quite a few people that did that also, you know, auditioning and performing in gigs. And I would meet this one and that one saying, "Oh yeah, I'm working on my one man show or my one woman show," when it's mainly singing and acting, some dancing or, or mainly acting, or, and I said, "You know what? Let me, let me try that. Let me just try that." So I just started writing, I just started writing and I knew it had to be very personal and, and something different, you know? I didn't want it to be what typically was done out there as far as you know like "Brigadoon" or "Carousel" or "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers," or I wanted it to be more raw and, and very personal.
[00:14:39] So I just started writing and it came naturally actually once I started writing one scene and, and, and doing the choreography, which I enjoyed a lot and acting comes naturally to me when it's my own stuff, if you will. Like I said, I played different women being abused, so that came, I scripted it all.  I knew what I wanted to, that what I wanted the ending to be. I wanted it to be strong and empowering and to actually say that we have to do things differently. And, and to show that this steals your life, you know, that the abuse and violence steals your life. And I think I was effective in doing that in the show. And, and I love doing the choreography but I knew I had to catch up. You know, I wasn't one of those people that started dancing, like I said, at four or five years old, 10 years old, even. So I had to take teachers that I-- I needed for them to pay attention to me. And that would catapult me to kind of save on the years that I lost not dancing.
[00:15:56] So there was two particular teachers: Phil Black and Kat Wildish. Phil Black was a master dancer, master dance teacher at the time he passed away in 2015, but he, he could take anyone off the street and make them into a dancer in a year. And, but he expected not a hundred percent. He expected a thousand percent in class, and he was great. He taught you-- you really got your money's worth in class with him-- because he taught lyrical jazz, theater jazz, Latin jazz, swing jazz. He saw it as all jazz. So he put all the different styles and made it into one class and every day was a different theme. So you learned all of these styles in his class and so I took him religiously. I mean, I was in his class all the time and, and then Kat Wildish. She was one of my main ballet teachers and, and she's amazing. She paid a lot of, a lot of attention to me. And so with the show, I was able to do the choreography cause I knew all the styles.  I learned them and I put them in my show and it just kind of flowed and I, at the end of it, I felt, as you said, liberated, healed. The healing is always a process. You're not a hundred percent healed, but you are continuously healing if you allow it, if you do your homework. So, and, and like I said, dancing is just-- it's my essence. It's my essence, truly. And I'm grateful for that. Yeah. So, so thank you for asking that too. I appreciate that question.
[00:17:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, and so now you have this one woman show and also now you have your business. And so that includes you actually speaking, right? You're going to different locations and speaking with people or groups. Are you still actively doing that now? Has it had to pivot a little bit with the times and more virtual or how is that all going for you?
[00:18:16] Sabrina Osso: Yes. Ever since COVID hit, things are really-- and still--actually kind of like at a standstill right now. So I've had to just readjust and see. I know it'll be picking up soon because as I understand it in September, I think the schools are going to be fully reopened, especially with more and more vaccinations being done. People are feeling safer. And so we are working on that to, to get things rescheduled. I have proposals out there and, and the feedback that I've been getting is that we should be up and running again towards the end of the summer into September, October, and yes, I've done some virtual performances, if you will, or virtual workshops. But like I said, it's been, it's been sporadic due to COVID. And with COVID, in a way-- and I'm, and I'm not trying to be offensive by, by any means-- it has kind of opened the eyes.
[00:19:23] I'm kind of grateful for COVID to a certain degree because homes must be safe. Your place of residence must be safe and COVID has highlighted that in a very big way. Home violence-- I, I prefer to say home violence versus domestic violence-- home violence has spiked across the globe ever since COVID hit on an enormous levels and your home should be your sanctuary.  It shouldn't be a war zone. It shouldn't be hell. It should be your, your comfort, your, your most safe place. And unfortunately for so many of us, it isn't, and COVID has definitely highlighted that. And I, I just want to reiterate that violence steals your life. Like I said, violence, any abuse, chaos, disfunction. And, and what a misfortune, what a misfortune I have to say. Like for myself with dance. I should have been dancing at three, four years old, you know, and and I'm not blaming my parents.  I had to let go of that because I made the best of it.
[00:20:40] You know, I, I didn't start dancing till much later in my early, early twenties and I had to catch up and I, I actually have had people say, "Holy cow, Sabrina,  I did start dancing at five years old and I haven't auditioned as much as you have." And I say to them, "Really? You, you started dancing at five years old?" And they were afraid to audition. I found that surprising from some people that stay in that cocoon of being in your dance school when, you know, cause it's kind of like a second home, right, being in that dance studio and you grow up there. Cause I taught in a good seven of them and, and it's true. That's like your second home. You go home, but your dance studio-- if you start from three, four years old and you're there through high school-- it's literally a second home and your second family. And, and I guess for, for some, it's your true family because of home is not a good place. It's your getaway.
[00:21:47]We try to, as far as the education and what we teach in our workshops, is to be preventative. And whatever we teach on to a high school student, obviously we're not going to teach the same things or the same way to someone, a student in the sixth grade or fifth grade. It's modified, but the message is there. We teach on warning signs, what constitutes abuse, to give students tools to practice safety, that when they are of dating age, you do not do what mom and dad are doing. You do different if you are in a abusive environment.  We're very positive though. And that's where dance, we bring dance and acting and encouraging the performance aspect of it. So. Yeah, so with, well, so all of these components come into play. It's kind of like what I did with my show. I do in my workshops to make it entertaining and empowering and educational at schools and universities.
[00:22:55]Lindsey Dinneen:  Perfect. And for any of our listeners who might want to connect with you and even book a workshop or something like that, is there a way for them to do that?
[00:23:06] Sabrina Osso: Yes, absolutely. My website is ossosafe.com. That's OSSO, and then the word safe, S A F E.com. My direct email is sabrina@ossosafe.com. I am on all the major social media platforms of Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Alignable, Instagram. I did do a TEDx Talk and that is broadcast on the internet. It's under Sabrina Osso. So that's also on the website. But yeah, those are the major components of, of how to contact us.
[00:23:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing your stories and all of the ways that you've taken difficult things and, and transform them, and the liberation that can come from that. Thank you so much for doing that. I so appreciate what you do and the way that you bring hope to other people. And I always ask my guests the same three questions, if you're okay with that.
[00:24:05] Sabrina Osso: Sure. Sure. Absolutely.
[00:24:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:24:14]Sabrina Osso: Freedom. Freedom, and freedom is a two way street.  I'm free and you're free. So that should be without harm, without anything negative. It is, it is freedom of expression. Just freedom.
[00:24:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:24:37]Sabrina Osso: It goes back to freedom to liberate. I like that word that you used during our interview: to, to liberate, liberate all emotions, whether it be happiness, sadness, anger. It could be, yeah, sadness, happiness, joy, liberation of all emotions, because once you release it, then you can get to the next level. So, yeah, liberation, I would say.
[00:25:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.
[00:25:42]Sabrina Osso: Hmm. Huh. Good question, Lindsey! I've never been asked that and in that way, I would say, well, maybe both. I would say, can I answer both are fine. I'm a proponent of both, really inclusive and exclusive because like even with my own show, I titled it, there was a description. And, and if I didn't do that, then yes, I guess the audience would have a different experience, which is correct also. So  I would say I would be for both. If I could say that.
[00:26:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Perfect. Well, thank you again so much for joining me this morning, Sabrina. I really appreciate it. And I just commend you for the work you're doing. I think it's incredibly important and inspiring, and I would highly encourage our listeners to check out her website and social media and follow what she's doing and yeah, watch that TEDx Talk, which is super cool as well, and definitely support what she's doing because it's, it's important and valuable. And I appreciate it. So thanks again, Sabrina.
[00:27:00] Sabrina Osso: Oh, Lindsey, thank you so much for this opportunity. I really enjoyed talking dance and performing in the arts with you. It's not very often that I'm on a podcast where I'm speaking about that. So I appreciate our time together and to talk art and dance and performing. And this was truly wonderful.
[00:27:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, good. Yeah. Well, I, yes, thank you again so much. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two ,and we will catch you next time.
[00:27:38] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Episode 056 - Sandy Rodriguez

In today's episode, I welcome Sandy Rodriguez! Sandy's day job is as a court interpreter, but her artistic experience goes way beyond one job title. She is also a painter, author, amatuer winemaker, and more, and she shares about the power of the arts in her own life and in the lives of those she's witnessed experience art. (Fun fact: the cover image is of Sandy's award-winning acrylic pour painting, "Lavender Fields.")
 
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Episode 56 - Sandy Rodriguez
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sandy Rodriguez. She is a communications expert and an artist, and has a really cool story to share with us today-- probably many stories to share with us today. So thank you so very much for being here, Sandy. I really appreciate it.
[00:00:54] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm a big fan of your show and it's such an honor to be here.
[00:01:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, thank you. Well, I would just love if you would share just maybe a little bit about your background and how you got involved with art and also, just a little bit more about you and what you're up to.
[00:01:14] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Well, I think that I have always, always been very much drawn to arts. But I got into it a little bit more seriously in very recent years that was a function, I think, of having made a big career because for many years, I used to work as an editorial coordinator for one of the formal newspapers in Latin America. I was living in Mexico City at the time. And while that career is very fascinating and I was very passionate about that, it's also all consuming. You're really never off the clock. So at a certain point in time, I decided to make a shift, and I moved to Los Angeles where I currently live. And here I began working in a totally different field, which is court interpreting.
[00:02:04] And although there's, you know, a very high barrier to entry and it's, it's, to be honest, a very grueling job. It is a situation where you're home by six, it's a normal eight to five job. So that gives me time to engage in other activities. So I was able to become an amateur winemaker, I would say. Well, to do a little bit more writing, I wrote a book of my own, recently published, and I got into art a little bit more seriously, and that was fabulous. It's been a very life-changing. So something that used to be a hobby somehow has become more of a-- well, without saying that I'm fully professional, that's not necessarily the case because I'm not necessarily, you know, marketing my, my paintings and such, but I'm doing it in a, in a much more-- let's say structured --way. And I'm very happy about that, Lindsey.
[00:02:58] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fantastic. Yeah. And, oh my goodness, what an interesting career you've had. I mean, just both, you know, positions are so interesting and yeah, it does sound like, like you mentioned, it might be grueling at times, but again, at least it allows you to do other things on the side. And I, I love your realness with that because I think there are a lot of artists who might feel like, "Oh, I'm not legitimate or something if it's not my full-time gig." And I think, I don't think there's any truth behind that. And so I really like that you've done both!
[00:03:33] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. And I think there's something interesting. I do agree with what you're saying that some people feel that unless it is your, your absolute only activity, you might not be like you say "legit" in, in some way. But on the other hand, I do find that many creative people in many creative fields-- and by that, I mean, acting, music, art, all kinds of things, filmmaking-- normally they have these titles that include a lot of hyphens or slashes because people actually do... Creative people sometimes do a lot of things. For instance, I remember one of your recent guests that was a writer and a Broadway actress, and she was also a tour guide. I also remember another person you had on the show that did podcasts and they were also into acting and writing. So a lot of people do a lot of things, and I think that that is also something that, that can happen. It's not only the person that says "I only am in school, so we need to devote myself to this." There's this other style of person that is interested in a lot of things. And they have, we have, our hands up in a lot of different projects and fields.
[00:04:44] And I think that is on the one hand-- it's, it's very interesting people that are into many fields. Some that do many things. Firstly, they have more places or sources to draw from when they actually do engage in a creative process, by which I mean maybe if you're a painter, but you're also a doctor and you're also a dancer, you might have more sources of inspiration than if you're not. So that's, it's interesting like that. And also the thing is that creative people bring their creativity into whatever line of work they're in, no matter what it is, even if you think well, "That doesn't really make sense. It doesn't sound, you know, within the realm of art or creativity to me." Maybe the person is, I don't know-- well, for instance, a tour guide-- maybe you might say, "Well, that's something that you need to, you know, base yourself on, on history. And there's not much margin for creativity." But you know, they're kind of fazed because a person might have a, a gift for storytelling or it's interesting, I think that, that you have both types of personality in the art community: the one, the person that wants to be  only focused on art, and the person that is, that spreads their creativity across a number of different fields. So there's a little bit of both, I think.
[00:06:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think you're absolutely right. Sort of I've noticed that creativity seems to beget creativity, in a way. So when you are exercising that muscle, then it, it becomes stronger and might go into many different avenues, like you were saying, instead of necessarily --you know, I think there are times when it's important to focus on one path, you know, and really go after that one thing, hone those skills-- but like you said, it's so much fun because you can dabble in all sorts of things and learn the joy from each one, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Well, okay. Something you said earlier totally caught my attention and I was like, "Wait a second. We can't just skim over that." Okay. So you make wine?
[00:06:48] Sandy Rodriguez: Yeah. Well, I think that's also a creative thing. Yes. So a couple of years ago, I started making wine and let's say in a serious matter, although it's an amateur only, I made a good Merlot, and then I made an excellent Zinfandel deal the following year. And when I say excellent, I'm not even making it up. I actually won a bronze medal for, for the Zinfandel, which I made alongside of a former boyfriend. We got into that and it was fantastic. I bought grapes from vineyard in the Paso Robles region. And we just went for it and we, we made a very, very good wine. It's also a very interesting field for, for creative people and just in general. So it's a hobby that very few people might engage in because you might think, "Oh, you need to own your own vineyard. Or it might be extremely expensive or very difficult." And, well, that's not really the case. I mean, you can actually source the grapes from existing vineyards. You don't really need to own one.
[00:07:49]And as for the process, interestingly enough, the winemaking community is very welcoming, even to newcomers or people that are just hobbyists, they're, they're very nice people overall, and they're very open to giving you tips and, and their secret techniques. So it's a lot of fun. And in more recent months, I've been trying to do something that I don't know if you could even call it wine. But I've been using wine-making techniques, not with grapes, but with just random fruit juices. I've tried it with a cherry juice, cranberry, apple. And the result is, well, I don't know if you could call it wine per se, but it's, it's just a very fun activity. And once you're, you're done, I don't have a commercial permit, but I can give samples out to friends or I can drink it myself. So it's, it's just very fun. Very, very fun.
[00:08:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that is so cool. Well, and I love the fact that you were talking about how sometimes it might seem like something, an activity, that has some barriers to it, but-- and I would have thought the same thing honestly, it would never have crossed my mind to, to try it-- but now I'm kinda like, "Ooh, maybe I will."
[00:08:59] Sandy Rodriguez: I think you should! And well, let me tell you, here's the thing-- it's very hard to scale up, but it's very easy to just start small. For example, the smallest you can go is making wine from a kit, which is still wine. I mean, it's not really like making brownies from a brownie mix. It's more like, like making a meal from a meal kit. You really do have to put in some labor and it's, it's interesting. And you can buy a kit from many wine-making sources online or in person, and you can make maybe like, five bottles of wine. I think that's the smallest amount that you can make. Now, if you want to scale up a little, the next possible step is what I did with the Zinfandel. You can purchase at least a hundred pounds of grapes from existing vineyards and that will yield about 30 bottles of wine. So it's a big leap and I wouldn't necessarily recommend scaling up once you've done that, because then you would probably need to go commercial and invest way more time and money into, you know, getting a license and such. But I think the 100 pound amount is, is great. I mean, that's, that's impressive enough to dazzle your friends.  It's just very fun. I would recommend that to anybody that's interested in, in an unusual hobby.
[00:10:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how fun and also, oh my goodness, congratulations on the bronze metal or a bronze award. How cool is that? Did you submit it to like a... I don't even know how that process works. That's so cool.
[00:10:36]Sandy Rodriguez:  It was actually a little surprise for me. I was-- so most of the bottles from that particular batch, my ex-boyfriend kept them and he kindly entered the, the wine into this contest, but I wasn't even aware until we won. So that was a very pleasant surprise. Yeah. But I wasn't really all that surprised because I mean, modesty aside, it was really great quality and that's not only because-- I mean, the technique we followed was, was fantastic-- but because the grapes themselves lend themselves to making a wonderful wine. Wine, for the most part, is dependent on, on the grapes you select initially. And these were great. So, I mean, it was, it was surely going to come out very well in the end.
[00:11:21]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's so cool. Okay. Well, I know you've recently written a book, and I would love to hear more about the process of that, because I know that's an undertaking, but also just maybe more about what it's about and, and that's a whole art form in itself.
[00:11:37] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Well, this is a book that is described by many as a conversation between the reader and the very supportive friend, and the conversation leads to the reader feeling more at peace and more confident. So it's a book that really has those two goals in mind. It's a book that is meant to leave the reader feeling more at peace and more confident in many ways, self confident and confident in the fact that things will always turn out alright. And this is a book that I wrote, it's called "Choose to Prevail," subtitle is "Unexpected Insights to Help You Overcome Challenges," and it's meant to help the reader overcome challenges big and small. When I say big, I mean, things such as, for instance, the death of a loved one, for example, or smaller things, which could be a difficulty when expressing oneself in public or maybe physical insecurities, that kind of thing.
[00:12:35] And in fact, it's a book that has been it's being gifted to people that join this company called Heart of Hollywood as members. This is a company that encompasses actors, dancers, models, et cetera. And the CEO and owner felt that the book offered value to people in the creative fields, in an entertainment, because I mean, this is a field where rejection is, you know, it's part of the very nature. So people do need to develop more confidence, rock-solid confidence, more faith in the fact that things can and will turn out fine. So it was very flattering for me to see that this company that deals with people in entertainment and the arts is now kindly giving its, its members this school. So that was, that was something that was very, very nice for me. And also I think that the  book allowed me to express myself in, in ways that go beyond writing.
[00:13:39]I was mentioning to you that recently I got a little bit more serious into, into arts. Let me backtrack a little. When I was a little girl, I had a tremendous passion for drawing, sketching. I would always have scrap paper at the ready and the pen or pencils or colored pencils or anything, markers, anything, because it was a tremendous compulsion that I had. So much so, Lindsey, that there was a time that I broke my right arm-- and I'm right-handed-- and instead of saying, "Okay, I'll just wait until I heal so that I can continue." No, I trained myself to draw with my left hand because I simply could not go a day without drawing or sketching. It was just a passion for me. I simply could not stop. So strangely, even though I was so, so passionate about this, I think when I became like maybe a, an older teenager and then a young adult, that kind of stopped being as interesting or important to me. I don't know why.
[00:14:41] I don't think that there was a specific incident. Maybe I just got too busy with life. I don't know, but it was something that I kind of stopped doing. And then in recent years, I would say maybe three years ago, I kind of got back into it, but this time around, it was not only drawing that I was interested in, but I wanted to explore painting. My mom is an architect and also an artist, much more serious and rigorous than me. And I think seeing her recent paintings was really something that inspired me. So I started experimenting with acrylics and I started painting, and the same compulsion that, that I had felt-- this little girl-- when it came to drawing, I felt the same thing. I had to go out and buy just a bunch of canvases and paintbrushes and paint and everything had to be ready because maybe I was in bed, and I was like, "Nope, I need to get up. I need to paint this thing that I'm thinking of." And that's, that's something that happened to me recently.
[00:15:41] And because it was kind of new to me, I was not used to acrylics or painting per se, drawing and painting are not-- not at least in my mind-- not quite the same thing. They don't even use the same part of the brain, is what I feel. But the compulsion was very similar and I did want to experiment as much as I could. And I also discovered this technique or style called acrylic pouring, which is a fluid, fluid style of painting that has its roots in something called "accidental painting" or "fluid arch" that was developed by a Mexican muralist by the name of David Alfaro Siqueiros who actually taught and also influenced Jackson Pollock at some point. Now modern day, acrylic  pouring is mostly considered a craft rather than art, because there are very specific techniques that people can pick up on, on YouTube and whatnot. Not to say that that doesn't have value because it does. I mean, of course, it's interesting that people can, can just start off their journey through tutorials, of course. But I wanted to, to explore that technique in ways that were not like accidental but rather more planned, and I also wanted to do it in ways that were not in line with existing techniques, but rather just experiment. And I did, and one of my acrylic pours actually ended up being the cover for the book, so that it was very cool.
[00:17:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Well, and I love the fact that this was such a passion for you that-- oh, well, first of all, that you taught yourself to do that with your left hand, I mean, that is so impressive, I can't even draw with my right hand.  I mean, I can, but I can't do what you do. It's not like a fine art thing. I can, you know, play around. But anyway, so that is super impressive. But also I just love that you've picked it back up, and it was fun to hear you talk about how you just want to be at the ready so that, you know, when inspiration strikes per se, you can respond. And that's so cool. Well, I, you know, I have a little bit of an advantage here at knowing you had mentioned before, about a specific thing that happened where you entered a contest as a kid. Do you want to tell that story?
[00:18:06] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Yes. So when I was little, I mean, it was an obsession. I would say that maybe it was a little bit crazy, but I also like to, to draw not only things that came from my imagination or for watching the world around me. But I also like to draw or try to replicate characters. Like for instance, I would like to read, say Archie comics and I would draw the Archie characters or people that looked vaguely like the Archie characters, but in different situations with different clothing, different storylines. I made my own comments. And I think that that's also something that maybe some parents will say, "No, I don't want my kids to, to be reading comic books and let alone, you know, copying things that they might see elsewhere," because that doesn't sound glamorous or, or, you know. But in reality, it's a, it's a good segue. I think it doesn't matter what the entry way into art or reading is, I mean, I think that's, it also has value.
[00:19:06] In any case, I was very used to doing that and I heard about this contest that was going to be sponsored by Kellogg's where you had to draw you know, the Kellogg's characters doing different things for different situations. And I submitted a couple of, of drawings of Tony the Tiger and Snap, Crackle, and Pop making cereal or, you know, just doing the things of that, of that sort. And I actually won this gigantic adult sized 10 speed bicycle. So that was fantastic. That was so, so cool. And I do love entering contests. In fact, last year I also entered an acrylic paint pouring contest. This was online. And I also won a first place. This was not something that was selected by judges, but rather through votes. And a lot of people voted for it, for my painting. It was something called "Lavender Fields" where I tried to use a cooling techniques to replicate a lavender field in France that I had once visited. So it's, it's really very interesting. I would encourage people of all ages to enter contests because it's just very motivating. It's fun. It's a fun activity. I think it's, it's, it's something that-- I mean, if you don't win, that's fine-- but if you do win, it's just like a fun story.
[00:20:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it is. Well, congratulations for both of those things, because that's so fun.
[00:20:30] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you.
[00:20:30] Lindsey Dinneen: And I'll definitely have to see a picture of that painting as it sounds gorgeous.
[00:20:36] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, thank you so much. Well, it's actually interesting because again, as I was telling you, acrylic pouring normally as taught in tutorials or in classes is really very techniquey, but I didn't want to go with things that everybody does, and everybody knows how to do, when everybody knows how, how to replicate. I wanted to do something that was more-- not, not a hundred percent accidental, but rather with a certain degree of planning. So I thought, "Okay, what do I need to do? How do I need to tilt the canvas?" The way this is done is pretty interesting. You use acrylic paints that are either pre-liquified or that you yourself make more liquid by the use of something called the pouring medium. So you have these-- let's say sort of liquid acrylic paints that you place on a canvas, and you tilt the canvas to and fro to the sides, et cetera, in order to make the paint move, and you can achieve very specific effects. It can look like marble. It can look abstract. You can look like a seascape depending on the color zone and the way you're moving the canvas or how you're tilting it, or certain other factors you might add to the paint.
[00:21:48] But I wanted to do something a little bit different. So I really gave it a lot of thought, like, "What would happen if I do this? If I do that?" And I ended up using a liquid acrylic paint. And even though the technique I used was that tilting the canvas, moving the canvas, I was able to guide the painting into looking the way that I had previously planned it to go. So it was, it was pretty fun. It was, it was an interesting experiment and I'm really glad that people liked it. I also think that this pouring technique is very satisfying. I mean, it feels so relaxing when you're doing that. And that's also something that I mentioned in the book. I mentioned how art can truly modify your moods in, in very dramatic ways.
[00:22:36] For example, if you're feeling a dip in your self-confidence or you're feeling a lack of energy, I can certainly say, and I've proven it myself, bring out your canvas and you provide yourself with paints in reds and burgundies and all of these exciting colors. And you turn up, you know, very intense music and you start painting. I mean, you feel very replenished and very confident by the time you're done. And by the same token, if you're feeling a little bit stressed or frazzled, and that happened to many people during the beginnings of COVID, and actually when COVID started, I went out and I got myself all the supplies that I needed. I started painting seascapes, another very tranquility- inducing landscapes, and blues and teals and grays. And, and it really is very soothing. I mean, just the type of brushstroke soft and it's, it's very therapeutic, I think.
[00:23:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, that is really inspiring. And I, I love the fact that you have taken this opportunity, you know, taking something that is a challenging time, but used it for creativity and as an outlet. And I couldn't agree with you more about how art has the power to really impact your mood in a great way, and your outlook on life, and like you said, even self-confidence through it. So it's a powerful thing. And yeah, I, yes. I always encourage everyone, I know everyone has creativity in them and it's just a matter of finding the type of art that speaks to you, you know? Well, I would love, I'm sure you have probably many of these thoughts, but is there any particular memories that sort of stand out as moments that matter when either you watched somebody experience your art, or you experienced somebody else's art, and you just thought, "I've got to remember this moment."
[00:24:36] Sandy Rodriguez: I think there are several. I mean, as I was telling you, my mom is, is an artist, far more accomplished than, than myself. And sometimes I see things that she has made, or I see things during the process of them being completed. And it's just very exciting. I mean, it's, you know how  Tom Sawyer, when he's white washing a fence and all of his friends think, "Oh, that looks super fun!" And it's really not. But the friends think that, well, in this case, I feel it's the same compulsion. You see somebody wielding a paintbrush and you say, "Oh, I want to do that." Luckily, unlike in the Tom Sawyer story, it really is fun. It's not unpleasant. It's really fascinating. But that's the thing. Just seeing somebody as they're painting, at least to me, it feels like I want to do that myself. It's just very tempting. It's one of those things that, that really speak to me. So I think whenever I see her or other artists in front of their easel or doing the things that they're doing when they're in the middle of adding a little tree or painting a, an eye or adding something to the sky, you know, I really want to do it myself.
[00:25:45] It's just something that's, that's very tempting to me. And also, as to the other situation, moments that I feel that I've remembered very clearly where people have liked what I've done. Yeah. Like for instance, I started painting this series of wine bottles recently, I guess also inspired by my wine taking things. But I, I think that wine bottles are very fun to paint because firstly, depending on the colors you choose on the placement, they can look very festive or very depressing, and both are interesting things to express. You can, you can express despair and anguish through a wine bottle, an empty wine bottle or half full one. And likewise, you can express a feeling of celebration. So they're, they're interesting. It's the same object, but it can give off two very different vibes depending on how you choose to paint them. And I made that series. And surprisingly, I think it's one, one of the series that I've made that people respond to the most.
[00:26:47]I've sold a few, and a lot of people have reached out in regards to those. I think that's interesting. I think that's something that, for whatever reason, spoke to people, so that was nice. And also there was another thing that, that happened.  So during COVID, the very first day that I heard the expression, "social distancing," I thought, "That is so interesting." And that very day, I came home. Because of my type of work, I really didn't have, you know, much time to, to spend at home. I was not in lockdown myself for, I mean, maybe just a couple of months, but not, not throughout the year, like many other people. But those months, the very first day that I was, let's say "sent home" and that I also heard the expression, "social distancing," I thought that would make a fascinating painting or drawing. So what I did is I made a set. It was two separate small illustrations. One of them showed a woman seen from behind at home. She's reading. And she's just in her home. She has a little dog, and it's like a scene where she's home basically.
[00:27:57] And then there's a separate illustration where there's a guy also seen from behind. And he's also you know, at home, also kind of doing his own thing, but he's thinking. There's a thought bubble where he's thinking about the woman, and what the thought bubble shows is the exact same image that you see in painting number one. So this set is called "Social Distancing" because I felt that that was a good reflection of what was going on, that people were going to have to be separate, each one in their own homes, but they might be missing or longing for being with somebody else, being with the other person that they were missing-- a partner or a girlfriend or a friend, maybe a sister. So I thought that that was an interesting thing. And what I found fantastic was that the Los Angeles Public Library agreed that it was interesting. And now those two paintings are part of its digital collection as part of the COVID archive.
[00:28:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Sandy, you are so amazing. You've done so many cool things. I love that. Congratulations for that too. Oh, that's yeah, just, that is really cool. And I love the fact that you were able to express that so beautifully through art and, and capture a moment in time that does matter. That's really neat. So yeah. Kudos to you. Well, I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you, maybe see some of your artwork if it's available online, just maybe purchase your book, follow you in your future endeavors. Is there a way for them to?
[00:29:33] Sandy Rodriguez: Yes, absolutely. I have an Instagram that is at @chooseprevail. That is an Instagram through which I share my, my journey as a writer. And occasionally I also share art, new things that I've been painting, new things that I'm doing. It's more focused on the book than on the art part, but you do find a little bit of both, and I think that's the easiest way to, to connect. If anybody cares to send me a direct message, that's also possible through Instagram, and as for the book, it's available pretty much everywhere. It's on Amazon. That might be the easiest venue, but it's also on personable.com, target.com, or Walmart e-books. I've even seen it on E-bay Australia. So I think that if somebody cares to get the book, they should be able to get the book. And I would be very happy if they did.
[00:30:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Perfect. Well, fantastic. I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.
[00:30:35] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely.
[00:30:37]Lindsey Dinneen:  Okay, good. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:30:43] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, I think that the dictionary definition would be simply something like, "the expression of human creativity and imagination to something such as a painting or a sculpture." Normally it's in visual form, but, personally, I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be in visual form. I think, for example, poetry can be a form of art. Certainly music can be a form of art as well. So I think it goes beyond, it goes beyond the visual. It's basically the application of creativity and imagination into something that speaks to others. I believe that would be the definition.
[00:31:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:31:30] Sandy Rodriguez: I think that they're --okay-- it has two types of importance. One would be important for oneself. I think that as an artist, the importance of art to yourself would be allowing you to express feelings and modify them, so it's something that is both a source of expression and also a source of comfort to yourself as an artist, I think. But as to society or more as a whole, I think that, firstly, it can make society better by adding more beauty to everyday lives, but it can also shine a light on things that might be social ills or social problems. So it's simply another way of communicating. As a journalist, as a former newspaper editor, I would say that the role of art is not entirely different from the role of any other form of media. You can either shine a light on problems or spread the word on something that is beautiful, spread the word about something that is fascinating, bring more beauty to the world.
[00:32:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's fantastic. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and include some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out but doesn't include context behind it. So it's kind of left entirely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will?
[00:33:12] Sandy Rodriguez: Ah, that's a very intriguing question. And I will always question that. Myself, for example, when going to museums that are not art museums, but rather museums of history. Sometimes you see artifacts from cultures that are long gone and you see the interpretation of modern day historians like saying, "Okay, this was a ceremonial goblet." How do we know it was a ceremonial goblet? Maybe it was somebody's everyday coffee mug. I mean, you don't know for sure. And it's kind of difficult also when it comes to, to arts, because I think for my fun and entertainment, I might choose not to give an explanation and just see how people respond to it, seeing what it triggers in other people, what a piece that I've made my may, you know, inspire or trigger within the viewer.
[00:34:04] But in reality, I think I'm more of a person that doesn't like to give explanations. So normally when I, when I create something, I do normally either give it a title or give a little backstory. I like to do that. I personally, I see value in both. In the way I do it, obviously the value is that there's no misinterpreting first for sure. But I think that the other style would have a lot of value and I would be curious to try it someday, see what happens if I give no explanation and just wait and see what people might say. So that's a fascinating question. I hadn't thought about that, but yes, definitely. I do the explaining part, but I'm going to try not doing these explanations, and see what, what what happens.
[00:34:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. "Do I like that?" It'll be an interesting social experiment.
[00:34:57]Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely.
[00:34:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's fantastic. Well, Sandy, I have enjoyed our conversation so much. You are so multitalented and I love how much you like to dabble in all sorts of different things, and still enter contests, and are actively creating. Thank you for sharing your art with the world and with me this morning, I just really appreciate it. So, thank you.
[00:35:21] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you, Lindsey. I had so much fun. You're wonderful.
[00:35:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, you're so sweet. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I would highly encourage you to connect with Sandy on Instagram and follow her journey because obviously she is continuing to make incredible things, and that is her trajectory and it will just continue and it's going to be exciting. So go ahead and, and follow her. And we will catch you next time.
[00:35:50] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Episode 056 - Corry MacDonald

In today's episode, I welcome Corry MacDonald! Corry is a creative healer and first-time author, and she uses her love of the arts and her background in art therapy to help people overcome obstacles and move forward. She shares about her book-writing process and the stories of clients she's helped that have touched her heart as much as she touched theirs. (Fun fact: the cover image is a picture of Corry!)
 
Get in touch with Corry MacDonald: https://www.creatinghealingwithcorry.com/ | https://www.facebook.com/CorryMacDonaldPage/ | https://www.instagram.com/corrymacdonald/
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Episode 56 - Corry MacDonald
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Corry McDonald, she is a creative healer and first time author, which is so exciting. Can't wait to hear all about it. So, Corry, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:00:51] Corry MacDonald: Oh, I'm so happy to be here, Lindsey. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. I'd love to hear more about your background, sort of what got you into the work that you do now maybe, and just art and you and, and how all that intersect. So I'd love to hear all of that.
[00:01:08] Corry MacDonald: Yeah.  It's why I'm so excited to be on your podcast because there are so many pieces to what I'm doing as a creative healer, but the thread that joins them all is creative power and creative intelligence and art. So in a nutshell, what drives me is I believe each one of us is meant to really just flow as the creative intelligence we are so that we can leverage life's challenges. Like whatever comes at us with stress, pain, triggers, heavy emotions, all whether body, mind, spirit, and we can learn to leverage them. And in real time, because underneath those things, there's wisdom and new potentials to access rather than just getting derailed by them. So think of it as artists who upcycled broken or discarded pieces to transform them into these masterpieces. You know, we also can learn to do this with our heaviest life pieces.
[00:02:06] So how that all came about is a lot of broken pieces in my life early, in my earlier years, I'm coming into 50 now. And so I learned a lot of incredible, creative power tools that help take me from a downward spiral up into a much lighter way of being. So those kind of weave together now. So whether it's like transpersonal art therapy. I started in art and design and then I started to learn after the art therapist or to learn about energy healing, learning that we're all energy and how we can learn to move from less of our overactive beta thinking mind into our heart, feeling mind. So I became a heart speaker, advanced cognitive coach, all these things that I do to help me. I started to get trained in them and smash them all together to become a creative healer, which is what I do now.
[00:03:04] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love the idea that you were talking about of upcycling.  But I just love that. What a great illustration. And it's just a perfect way of thinking about how, you know, nothing that happens in our life needs to be wasted. It can all be replanted, you know?
[00:03:24] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh, I just got complete goosebumps when you said that. Cause it's, that's it! Like nobody taught us this in school, right? Like we learned lots of great stuff in school. Don't get me wrong. But I, this is stuff that-- this is life. And there are things that come into our life and it's actually, I'm learning, I call it creative intelligence. Some people, whatever your higher power is, you know, a source, great spirit, Allah, God, you know, there is a big energy, a creative force that is on the macro in, in, you can see it. I mean, just look into the universe, look into the stars at night, but that universal intelligence, the creative intelligence, I call it, is running and humming through us too. So it is ready to transform whatever stuff is coming at us, but we, we need to learn how to do that.
[00:04:18] Because most of the time we just react, which-- it's our wiring. We go into fight/flight/freeze, but we can override these systems and find new and better ways of being, and create different realities. And I I'm so grateful actually for all of the life that I've lived because I had to go through some --I call it off-roading, like four by four-- I had to go through some rough waters and rough roads to kind of have my self look deeper and go, "Wait a minute. I want to approach this different." And the minute we start looking for a higher or a, a better, vaster solution. Again, we're co-creating with the universe. So it dovetails and the helpers will come, like whether the right book or the right course or the right conversation with the person at the checkout. It doesn't matter. Something will help to upshift and upcycle, whatever you're wanting to. So it's a beautiful, natural process of life. We're meant to grow.
[00:05:20] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. And that's so encouraging to realize exactly what you're saying, that there's so much more. And if you can help yourself and just be more aligned with truth, then that makes such a difference in your life, which is, you know, obviously transformative. Well, I would love to hear about how art specifically has kind of impacted and influenced your work, because I know that's a big component for you of what you do and sort of your own processing.
[00:05:55]Corry MacDonald: Yeah. Fantastic. I mean, even-- I love that question because even when I went to art school, I just kind of did it, Lindsey, 'cause it was the only thing that kind of lit me up, not even I, I was in university and I was one of these people --I did kind of do everything pretty well and easily. I had a good memory. I could study stuff, but it didn't excite me. And I was thinking, I'm going to just fail, go travel. And I remember how it was. I grew up in Canada. So I remember at the university, I had to take an arts elective, you know, so I just thought, "Well, I love to paint. I'll just take the fine arts." And I, the prof was almost failing me. I thought, "I'm not even good. I'm not good at this. I'm not going to continue." Even though it was the one thing I really loved, I love to express more of myself.
[00:06:46] And I remember him saying, "You know, Corry, I'm sad to hear, you're not going to try to get into art school." And I said, "Well, you're my lowest mark in my average," because I was all about the marks then, you know, and he said, "I'm doing that 'cause I'm pushing you. I think you should apply." So we ended up becoming partners. And he kind of helped me to create a portfolio and I got into art school. And when I got in there, I realized very quickly that I was wired-- I could do all this stuff that I was learning-- but I was wired for the emotive stuff. Like I could feel people's energy in their art and not in critiques. I was noticing that, and the profs were noticing I was much more interested to talk about what's going on internally with people, not about the arts, separate from the, the emotions and the feelings.
[00:07:38] So a few of the profs pulled me aside and said, "You know, have you ever heard of art therapy? You might consider that, Corry, you're really leaning that way." And I had no idea that that existed. So then it just enfolded in life, you know, that I went that path, but that is so exciting to me because that tells me that this path was there before I even knew I was going to go. And for a while, I even resisted it because I kind of thought, "Who am I to be a therapist?" My life was such a mess at the time. I just ran away from it, but it kept coming. You know, I kept taking psychology courses or we'd move to a new country. And I met a new lady, a new friend today, and she's an art therapist. Like I kept attracting it into my life, you know, so eventually I went there, I went to that direction.
[00:08:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And so in your work as an art therapist, what are some stories that stand out where you got to witness, or was your own experience of witnessing art, having a really big impact on someone's life, like a moment to remember?
[00:08:50] Corry MacDonald: Oh, I'm so excited to share that, Lindsey, in the book that just came through me. And that's another exciting thing that, you know, we don't even see where we put limits on ourselves. And I just never thought I would write a book. I just thought I was all about creating with a paintbrush or, and hammer and nails. I like sculpting too, but all of a sudden during the lockdown, this book came through and it was-- so many stories came through of what you just asked for. And that was, as the stories came through, I then reconnected with past clients and said, you know, this book, "Life in Full Colors," is coming through. It's called "Unlock your Childlike Curiosity to Uncover and Activate the Creative Intelligence You Are."
[00:09:32] So I was starting to write and all these past clients, I said, "Can I use your story?" And there are two that really stand out. But as we're talking, I wonder if I could just read-- it's a few paragraphs-- the story of Talia, because it was powerful what happened in her art, and I think we can all relate. So Talia came when I was just in new to being a creative healer. So this is a section in the book called Facing Fear to Find a New Focus. It's about going to that stuff that is painful, but we can upcycle it. I saw this happen for Talia, a soft-spoken woman who joined one of my workshops to discover that she took up very little space in her own life. While she had a sense that her vibrancy had been swallowed by her new role as a practical-minded, at-home mother, it wasn't until she saw it reflecting right back at her from her artwork that she realized how small her self-worth had become. Amid a chatty group busily creating magazine collages to express who they perceive themselves to be, Talia sat pensively.
[00:10:42] The emptiness of her large white paper engulfed the only image she managed to set into her collage: a lone peering eye. For Talia, I could see this eye felt almost unbearable to own. And yet that is exactly what she did. As she looked into the eye, surrounded by all the white space, it looked straight back at her. At first, she gazed back disturbingly as the expanse of emptiness echoed back the emptiness she felt inside. And then something happened. She just started to grow easier with it, that lone eye-- initially piercing and judgmental --transformed for Talia. Now she had a focus partner to help her to look below the surface of her life. Her artwork became an invitation to honor the silent space within her life is in the collage, allowing Talia to be intentional with what she chose to fill that space. As she listened inwardly to her creative intelligence, she recognized she could now consider her happiness and explore her life as a blank page, waiting to be filled.
[00:11:57] What followed that powerful pivot point were many more moments for her using art to express her innermost self, and to her delight, her color-filled creations became more and more vibrant and radiant, as did her life, recognizing she'd uncovered her passion. She took up the series of art classes, until one day, she began to introduce herself as an artist. She discovered a whole dimension of herself by literally moving through the eye of her personal storm to allow the fullest expression of herself.
[00:12:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's really beautiful.
[00:12:37] Corry MacDonald: That's all of us. That's all of our story. That's why I share it today. You know, we don't even know what's inside of us until we go there, but that can be the scariest thing in our mind. And yet when we jump in, our heart joins us and we start to get coherence and we get a new rhythm and find things that want it to be expressed just start to flow out. But it takes the fit of courage, doesn't it?
[00:13:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, it does. Yeah. That's a beautiful story. I'm so glad she was willing to share that because what a, what a perfect illustration of the way that, you know, one seemingly-- maybe it could have been insignificant, so to speak-- encounter with art, literally transformed her life. I love that.
[00:13:30] Corry MacDonald: Yeah, it really did. Yeah. And it's, it was such a joy, Lindsey, because you know, that was seven years ago when I had-- maybe eight now-- and so to go back to Talia and to all the others and say, "Guys, this book is coming through me like a download, and I'm having all these moments pop into my consciousness and they're streaming into these pages. Can I share? And how are you? And I miss you." And then they, all of them said yes, which was really cool, 'cause I met them at a time where they wouldn't want to share, but it was like unanimous. They said, "People need to know that it's that, especially people who think 'I don't have a creative bone in my body' like this, it's not about art, the stuff we're making." You heard, she stuck an eye on a piece of paper and that did something.
[00:14:23] And also with, with the art therapy, you know, it's not even about the arts so much. It's about the process. Much of what we do is like just doodles on a page. We're moving energy out onto the page. So it's our emotions are essentially energy in motion. So then we get to actually see them and look at ourselves outside of ourselves. So all of the people who shared their stories, they were in such a different place in their lives, such a more open and more rich place, that it was really amazing, Lindsey, to think, "Wow." That one moment you had on that, in that workshop, you know, you think about the butterfly affect and how that impacts so many pieces down the road and their relationships, their marriages. So it's, you mentioned earlier, like when we take care of ourself, like how powerful that is, and it's true. It has a big resonance, because then those around us in our immediate world feel that it's felt and it's experienced by them. But then it also goes out with, they can measure this now energetically, but what's out to our communities. It goes out to that, even the trees and plants around us, like it's all connected. So it's quite phenomenal when we start to upshift and upcycle ourenergy, the impact we do have on our world.
[00:15:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, congratulations on your book. This is super exciting. Do you want to share more about how that all came to be?
[00:15:59] Corry MacDonald: Yeah. Yeah, because like, as I mentioned, I did not see it coming and yet it's one of those things when you look back, you think, " Come on, Corry, how did you miss that? It's coming." Do you ever have that in your life where you look back and you think, "Oh, there were hints along the way?"
[00:16:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes.
[00:16:18] Corry MacDonald: Yeah. And that's how it was with this book because I, I am one of these people that when I go into something, I just dive in so that I kind of forget everything else around me. It's like part of that creative process, right when you're in flow. And so actually the book kind of happened like that, that it was suddenly locked down, and now I'm in Belgium, but at the time we were living in Dubai in the Middle East and it was very strict there and they can be because, you know, they have  cameras and drones everywhere. So it was really locked.  And, but I just really kind of dove into that and thought, "Oh, I'm going to kind of treat this as my own time, like a silent retreat in a sense." And so in the house there, there was a-- we have three teenagers and then the dog and everyone was in the house, my husband, and then there's a little house off to the side, like a little extra room and I just kind of delve in there cause I could get into my own space and I call it in the-- in my book-- the creative space called The Cloud. And I was thinking to get away and have some kind of meditation time, maybe paint a bit.
[00:17:29] All of a sudden, I got a kind of message. It's like a whisper in my ear. It said, "Grab your laptop." So I grabbed my laptop. Then after I would meditate all of a sudden, boom, I would just receive like a download of a chapter. It would just come out. And I realized, I think this is a book that I tried to start writing like five years ago, but  I was doing it so much from my mind, my kind of mind and the ego. Like this is my book. I'm going to write my book. And it wasn't flowing. And then life happened that I was really doing a lot of inner work, where it was really getting my heart and mind aligned, which is creating heart coherence and heart math tells us. And when we start using our whole mind-- and of course I share this in the book too-- there's our thinking mind and our feeling mind, and that feeling is located in the heart. And often it's not-- in Western culture-- not really tapped into so much because it looks messy and childlike and it looks like a kid. Think of a kid in preschool, going nuts on a painting.  There's no sense of time. There's no-- it's, it's imaginable, but it's essential because it's our intuition and all of these things. Whereas our thinking mind, it's also essential. It's keeps track of time.  It organizes. It's very, you know, methodical, but if we get too much in that thinking mind, we lose the wonder and magic of life and we lose the creative power.
[00:19:00] So I had been doing all this work to integrate the two, and like hard math tells us that there's a magnetic pull to the heart, that feeling mind of 5,000 times stronger than when you're in your, just your thinking mind alone. So all of the sudden I'm within this great alignment that, yeah, I'm sure that's why a book could flow in so quickly. And so all the skeletal structure of the book I had created with my thinking mind five years before, it still was there, it was in my memory. So I had a framework for it, but all those little spontaneous hits of, yeah--Talia's moment, that should go there!  And all of those downloads of memories and ideas and teaching, breaking these seven steps, because it suddenly formed seven transformative tools that leveraged life's challenges is  your ultimate art material. These seven steps showed up. And that was gorgeous because it became like doing a painting to me where you're blending ideas and you're, you know, having kind of a rhythm of things going and I realized, "Well, maybe writing could be another art form that I've never considered for myself, you know?" So it was a fun process for sure.
[00:20:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That sounds so fun. I love that you were sort of in that flow state of just "here it is." It's just coming for you. What a wonderful way to write a book.
[00:20:29] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh. Yeah, because when I, like I said, five years before I was trying to write a book. And when you're trying, or you're saying, "I should sit down to write," you're not in flow, you're just forcing something. So it was a different feeling. It was power versus force, which I loved. And, and now people feel that when they're, when I'm getting the reviews and people say, "Wow, I feel like I'm..." My husband said, "Corry, this feels like you're right beside me, like your voice. And it feels like I'm in a workshop with you." And that's what I wanted, especially with COVID. Now I want to, to give people the power tools that they could, if they're stuck somewhere, all they need is a pack of crayons and a personal problem or challenge-- well, we all got those-- and to see, to learn, "Oh my gosh, I can take this relationship that seems to be falling apart because I'm stuck at home with my whatever-- grandma or my daughter or my, my spouse-- or I can take this backache that just doesn't go away and I can use it and get information from it through this process." So that's been really exciting because I think that's it. We need to help each other and give each other tools.
[00:21:44] And the most beautiful thing is there's a non-for-profit I support in Canada who are bringing art therapy to immigrants and refugees who come and I feel this affinity to them. I've just such a kinship to them because I've lived overseas for almost twenty-five years, willingly. And even then it's been challenging at times, but a lot of people are coming from like war-torn areas or they're just, they're struggling. They leave a traumatized area so often to be retraumatized when they enter into a culture that maybe doesn't accept them or doesn't like the religion or what have you, you know? And so I'm partnered up with this Vancouver Island counseling center for immigrants and refugees. So all the net proceeds of the book go to them. And so not only is the reader uplifted, but they know they're lifting another just by getting the book. So I'm grateful that it all flowed in the way it did. And it's still flowing out and lifting others energetically.
[00:22:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's beautiful. Oh my goodness. What a cool organization too.  That sounds like such a needed thing. And I just love that that's what they're doing. Oh, very cool. Well, so I'm, I'm curious you know, if there's a listener who is thinking, "Oh, you know, maybe I should try this," do you have like a very, maybe simple exercise for someone to just start with?
[00:23:13] Corry MacDonald: Oh, yes, let's share that. That's great. And actually, I put a bunch on my website, which is got an area called like Resources and then under-- well, it's in the dropdown under my book-- and like listeners, definitely, if you're interested, go there 'cause there's some PDFs where I teach you playfully how you can-- for example, there's a "How to Do a Massage". I was missing massages so much. How to create an  massage from the inside out as you use your imaginal world and colors. So there's that. And there's "Create Calm and Colors with Your Breath" and "Creating Direct Path Home to Yourself." There's different fun little exercises you can do that, you can go right inside, but right now you could even do this energetically. And when I say that, I mean, just with your imagination.
[00:24:03] Lindsey Dinneen:  Thank you for that. And you know, I'm sure that our listeners are going to want to connect with you and follow your work and hopefully purchase a copy of your book. Is there a way for us to do that?
[00:24:16] Corry MacDonald: Yeah, thanks for asking. You can definitely, you're always welcome to tuck into my website, which is creatinghealingwithcorry-- and Corry is spelled C O R R Y .com, creatinghealingwithcorry.com, and that website is just a colorful schmozzle of, of stuff for ya. There's the, like I said, the resources. There, there's all the little links to my social media. So I've just started a new YouTube channel,  just learning all this stuff. And I've put a lot of these kind of playful processes in there in time-lapse. So they're quick. You can just think, "I'm really angry. What do I do?" Tuck in: I've got one on anger. I, just all different trapped emotions that get stuck and make us feel off you can find there, but there's all sorts of stuff. And the information about my book is there as well and how you can find it on Amazon and the, if, if you want to try it out, test it out. There's a little place you can sign in for a free chapter. And I also share a free creative exercise from the book in there, so you can test drive it, but it's on Amazon in ebook and paperback too. And it's called "Life in Full Colors."
[00:25:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, I always like to ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with that.
[00:25:40] Corry MacDonald: I love this idea.
[00:25:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:25:50] Corry MacDonald: Oh, art to me is pure expression from anybody's soul: on a page, in a meal, it can be the way they garden, the way they put themselves together with their clothes, or sculpture, music. Oh, any pure expression from the soul.
[00:26:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:26:17]Corry MacDonald: Oh, artists are the way-showers.  Most of us are stuck in our, our brains, myself included. Why do you think I share this? I have to learn what I'm sharing. So the artists seem to know that when they go into that flow state, when they go into that still point inside and bring something into the world that was never seen before, that they're dovetailing with all of life, with consciousness itself. And so  they show those who've never gone there before what's possible, and they bring something new to form, which is sheer magic.
[00:26:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow. That's a really unique perspective. Thank you for that. I love that. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, something to give a little bit of background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.
[00:27:32] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh, lindsey. Oh, that question just got me so excited because, what a question, right? Because both of them have such a different experience. They offer a different experience. I guess I'm going to answer the latter, in that because of who I am and what I do-- because why I say that is-- so often when someone is new working with me and they decide to express themselves from their heart, they'll be timid the first time. And they'll say, "Well, I feel this is what's coming out of me. Maybe this image is about me wanting to discover myself." And then they'll look at me and say, "But what do you see, Corry?" And then I laugh because I say, "Well, everything I see is going to be about Corry's story." Just about the same in the workshop group. Like if Lindsey looked at it, you would bring your interpretation for it.
[00:28:31] So I feel that it's quite gorgeous when someone just doesn't explain what it's about. And then all of us can, our souls will make meaning from whatever medicine we need from it, you know? And that's quite powerful to know that, wow, we are able to walk up to something-- I'll even do workshops where I'll say, "Go out in the woods and see what's calling you, bring it back and let's make a group sculpture of it." But each person comes back with a stone or something that has a message for them. So  we're meaning makers. So I like the idea of keeping it kind of open, but letting everybody take responsibility for their own meaning and not, you know, and not me saying, "Well, I see this, so it's that." yeah, that's a great question. Those are great questions, Lindsey. Oh my gosh. Thank you for that.
[00:29:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Thank you. Well, I love hearing people's perspective and their answers on those questions because, you know, like art, it's completely subjective and it's so much fun to hear people's different interpretations. And like you were saying, sort of you bring your own story into it too, which is fun.
[00:29:42] Corry MacDonald: So it is, but on the flip side of that, I have done that where I had a show and then I invited actually a lot of people who were creating in workshops. And I said, "You guys, now you see, you are creative powerhouses, like join me in the show." And then when we started to hang it,  so many people requested, "Please share some information behind these paintings because we're so curious." So I see the validity of both, you know, and in the end, it was chosen that, okay, we'll share a little bit about these pieces. So it's kind of cool. Like there's, there's, you can have it all and it can all benefit the, the universe because we're always curious ones, aren't we?
[00:30:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so very much for being here today, Corry, I really appreciate it. I love your insight into art. I love your illustration about upcycling, and I just keep thinking, keep picturing a mosaic, you know, how those are historically created with broken tiles, and they're made into something new and beautiful. And I just keep thinking about your, your artwork and your perspective on that. And I just love it. So thank you so much for sharing today. I just really appreciate you.
[00:31:00] Corry MacDonald: Well, I received that in full and I flew it right back to you for creating this space where these sorts of things can be shared because art matters. Beauty matters. If ever we knew that more than ever is now when so much has shut down, we need to share the things that bring our souls alive. So thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun.
[00:31:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course, of course. Well, and thank you so much, everyone who has listened to this episode, and I hope you do check out Corry's work. And I, I just appreciate you listening to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:31:48] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.