Artfully Told

Episode 054 - Natalie Cordone & Shawn Kilgore

In today's episode, I welcome Natalie Cordone & Shawn Kilgore! This incredibly dynamic duo have amazing stories to share about the show that introduced them to each other, the creation of their own tribute show to Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme, and all the adventures in between. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Natalie & Shawn!)
 
Get in touch with Cordone & Kilgore: www.cordoneandkilgore.com
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 54 - Natalie Cordone & Shawn Kilgore
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have as my guests today, Shawn Kilgore and Natalie Cordone. They are a performing duo that has been producing, writing and touring around the country for almost a decade. And they are currently the hosts of "Live! With Cordona and Kilgore." And I am so excited to chat with them about their artistic journeys and what they're up to now. I know their whole focus on is on positivity and light, and I'm just so excited that they're here. So thank you, Sean and Natalie, so much for being here today.
[00:01:14] Shawn Kilgore: Thanks for having us. This is very exciting. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:18] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, we're thrilled to be here. Thanks, Lindsey.
[00:01:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And it sounds like we have some guest artists as well.
[00:01:25] Shawn Kilgore: Yes. I apologize for the, for the hounds in the background.
[00:01:29] Lindsey Dinneen: It's all good. I have two dogs too. They might make a sound appearance at some point as well.
[00:01:36] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. I'm not making any promises on my end, either. The pup is-- he's being good right now, but you just never know.
[00:01:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. You never know when they'll have to defend the house against the UPS driver. You just never know.
[00:01:46] Shawn Kilgore: Exactly.
[00:01:47]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, okay. So I would just love if you two wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit about your backgrounds, maybe how you got into art in general, into your specific fields, how you guys met, and maybe a little bit about what you're up to now, which is I know a tall order, but we'll just dive in and I can't wait to hear.
[00:02:07] Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely, Natalie, go ahead.
[00:02:09] Natalie Cordone: Sure. So my artistic journey actually began in a tutu when I was about three. So I started dancing in tap and ballet lessons like most of us did, and I was a dancer up until I was in college, but along the way, I joined the theater and became an actor and then didn't find my voice as a singer until I was in college, really, which is an odd journey and kind of very different from Shawn's. But then I started singing mostly opera and I sang with the Orlando Opera and got my Master's Degree in Acting, and became a professional actor right away and started dancing and singing in musicals. And along with singing with the opera, and along that journey is when I met Shawn. But let's have him tell you a little bit about him before we talk about how we met.
[00:03:00] Shawn Kilgore: For me, I started singing from a very young age, mostly in church, and I was very involved in music all through school. But it wasn't really, until I was in eighth grade, I was about to be a freshman in high school when my mom took me to see my first big musical. And from the second that it started, I knew exactly that that's what I wanted to do. So I immediately got involved in theater, you know, and, and musical theater in, in high school. And that continued that on through my college years. That's what I studied both at a school in Ohio and then later at a school in New York City. And then I moved to Florida, South Florida, worked professionally for many, many years in regional theater throughout the state and then moved to central Florida. And that brings us to where Natalie and I connect.
[00:03:43]Natalie Cordone: Oh, it's a good story. So, so the, the real story of how we met begins with Shawn's singing with the Orlando Philharmonic Orchestra. He was doing this fantastic version of "Carousel," where he played Billy Bigelow. He was the big man on campus and it was a very coveted role and super exciting, singing with a full orchestra and in the midst of it, I was moving back from New York City. And we both got cast in a show together. So Shawn had been cast in the musical from the beginning and his partner in the show was supposed to be another actress. The show is called "Baby," and in the show, our two characters are desperately trying to get pregnant. I think that's a nice way of putting it. So in that show, we spent most of our time in a bed. That was our set. And so we got to know each other very closely, very quickly...
[00:04:39] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah, a lot of intimacy from the day we met.
[00:04:41]Natalie Cordone:  And I just thought he was the most wonderful actor. And the only reason why I was cast in the role was that this whole time, the storyline it's really about how this couple cannot get pregnant. And the actress who was supposed to play the role, got pregnant. And so she was going to be five months and showing on stage, which would have made absolutely no sense. She's a wonderful actress and it's the only way she could have possibly lost the role. And so as I was coming back from New York, that theater called me and asked if I would do the show. And so I was thrilled to get a chance to work with Shawn and, and have it be my sort of return to this regional theater that I'd worked at many times. And so we did get onstage and, and get pretty close, pretty fast. And in the midst of that, I was doing a solo show. And Shawn said, you know, "Would you want to do a cabaret show with me?" And I'd done quite a few of them. And I said, "Yes, I'd love to work with you again, but can we do something even bigger and better than a cabaret?" And from there we put a band together and we got charts and we found that we loved the same kind of music. And so we loved singing together. And I couldn't imagine not working with him and having him in my life every day. And so we started creating theatrical concerts. And they got really popular pretty quickly. And so we created, we created well over a dozen shows at this point. And, and we started touring them around the country. So that's how we met.
[00:06:10] Shawn Kilgore: And while we were doing that, we also became, because of Natalie, had also done a show with the Orlando Philharmonic. So we had sort of cultivated this relationship with, with that local orchestra here. And so we maintained that relationship and that brought us once they saw that we were what we were doing, they invited us to be guest vocalists. So then we would start to appear with the Orlando Philharmonic on a semi-regular basis for pops concerts and those kinds of things. And, you know, between the shows that we were producing and performing and the shows with the Philharmonic, our audience members would always come up to us and say that we reminded them of Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme.
[00:06:47] Natalie Cordone: Yes.
[00:06:48] Shawn Kilgore: So that led really sort of catapulted us into our next venture, which was creating a tribute show to, to those really incredible artists at the time. You know, we knew who they were, we had heard the names before and not really, you know, very well versed, you know, in their careers though. But now, you know, we have been-- that show, that's our longest running show. We've been touring with that show for almost eight years now. I think that show has played, you know, from everywhere to Las Vegas, to, to Miami. And so, so that show really has sort of been the biggest, the, the biggest thing that we've, that we've been focusing on over the past couple of years, but it's been great. We learned a lot about Steve and Eydie. They were really incredible entertainers and they both had incredible individual careers. And when they came together, for those out there that, that remember them, know that it was just magic and there was nothing like it. So for us to be able to sort of try to recreate that a little bit, we're not, we're not impersonating them. We are, we are simply tribute artists where, you know, we're, we're out there as ourselves singing their music. So that is sort of what we, that's what led us to this point now where we are now.
[00:07:55] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. And we're about to do that show again, coming up as we come out of everything that's happened recently, it's super exciting to get to kick off our season with it. And while we were waiting to do that show again, is when we started our live with Cordone and Kilgore show, which is an online show where we are the interviewers. And we bring on a different guest every week because we found that what we really wanted to do during this time was just accentuate the positive as much as possible. One of the things that I love about Shawn so much, and I think what made us click from the beginning, is that we really both like to air on the sunny side of whatever's going on in any situation. And we found that anytime we would jump online and just sing a song or the rare occasions, when we got to sing together, people really were resonating with the fact that we were bringing some kind of light and positivity to the world and we wanted to be able to bring other people in to do the same.
[00:08:55] So that's when we started our live interview show where we have it kind of like Regis and Kathy Lee back in the day, if they were to have sung together, which we do on every show, we get a chance to, to sing together, whether that's old footage of the last 10 years of our shows, or if we get to do it live and in person. And we get to bring on great guests, everyone from artists to dog rescues to people who are making drinks and bakeries and anything that makes us, you know, feel good. Yeah, and brings us positivity.
[00:09:30] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah, we say, we say our goal is to accentuate the positive. Yeah, like, like she said every week. And so it's a, it's a nice thing to do. We talk about, you know, good news stories. We're talking about good things that have happened to us. We invite our guests to share, you know, stories of what's happened in their weeks that might've been positive or good. Yeah, so we're really enjoying it. So not only so people can join us live for that when we do it live, but it is also available as a podcast currently on Spotify and Stitcher, and hopefully coming soon to all other podcast platforms.
[00:10:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is so cool. I am so enamored with your stories. Oh my word. And the way that they intersected and I just love what you're bringing to the world. I think this is just so cool. And yes, this whole time I've been smiling because what great stories you guys have to share about, you know, how, how you all got started. And I, I resonate with you, Natalie, about getting started in a little tutu. I started dancing when I was four, but it wasn't for the dancing itself. It was for the costumes. Let's be real.
[00:10:32]Shawn Kilgore: That's the one thing you guys have a lot in common. Natalie changes gowns I think maybe eight to 10, maybe 12 times in the show.
[00:10:40]Natalie Cordone: I do have, I hope you do too at this point, but I'm so lucky that my work wear is actually two full closets of gowns in my house. 'Cause that's what I get to get dressed up in to go to work. So I'm with you on the sequins and rhinestones front for sure.
[00:10:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah, yeah, no completely. I, I still get extremely excited to put on a tutu and tiara. Still a wonderful moment. So yes, I resonate and yes, I do have actually in my house because you know, I also have a professional dance company. We have, I think, three closets that are fully devoted to dance costumes. It's ridiculous. But here we are. Yeah.
[00:11:22] Shawn Kilgore: That's it, but I've actually worn a tutu one time.
[00:11:25] Lindsey Dinneen: What, why?
[00:11:27] Shawn Kilgore: It happened once. It was actually in high school, believe it or not. I can't believe I did it. And I can't believe I'm still alive after doing it. It was in a show. It was like, you know, our show choir was doing a Best of Broadway thing and we did the number "You Gotta Get a Gimmick" from "Gypsy." And it was the two women came out to do the first two. And I came out and I was the ballerina butterfly. I was Tessitura.
[00:11:50] Natalie Cordone: Okay. So the only time that this gets weird is that Shawn and I have once in our lives played the same role in a musical two different musicals, but we both--
[00:11:59] Shawn Kilgore: Two different productions, yeah.
[00:12:00] Natalie Cordone: That's right. In the same musical, in "Nunsense." We both played Sister Mary Amnesia at two different times. He played it. I played it in "Nunsense" and he played it in "Nunsense Amen." so we've actually shared-- the three of us have all shared the experience of a tutu. And two of us have actually experienced being the same role on stage, which as a soprano and a baritone makes absolutely no sense, but we did it. We've done it.
[00:12:22] Shawn Kilgore: I'm actually on the national cast recording of "Nunsense Amen," which is also available on Spotify, you know, out there that as Sister Amnesia on the recording.
[00:12:30] Lindsey Dinneen: What! That is so cool. Oh, my word. You two. I love it. Okay. So I just, I was really tickled when you were talking about, you know, the first time you met and it was like, "Well, here we are. We're going to get to know each other real fast." Was that ever, and I guess I'm just curious about this in general, you know, not as an actress, I, is that ever just super awkward and difficult when you have to kind of jump into those roles and you're like, "Well, we're going to be up close and personal for awhile."
[00:12:59] Shawn Kilgore: It really, it really depends on the other actor. And I think, you know, for me, I feel really lucky. From the moment I met Natalie, I knew that I was going to be friends with her. That was that it was going to go beyond. I had not in my wildest imagination could have dreamt that we would be where we are today. But I knew that we were going to be friends and we were going to be in each other's lives for a while. So you get lucky. So you get lucky with that casting, you know, it's, it's all about the other person in that situation 'cause it could have been a nightmare. You know what I mean? It really could have been a nightmare from day one. But thankfully, you know, we really, we connected and, and, you know, it turns out to be the show itself was a, it was an incredible show and we got to do some really wonderful moments together. We got to play the happiness of, of being a couple into the, the heartache of, you know, thinking you are pregnant and then finding out that you're not, again. You know those scenes were pretty powerful and to get to go through that together every, you know, eight times a week for however many weeks, it was, I think that's something that, that bonded us also, you know,
[00:13:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, for sure.
[00:13:58] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, for sure.  I was just going to say that chemistry piece of it is one thing that you can't make up, right? It's genuinely liking someone and then getting to fall in love with them over and over again. It's really special and I've, I've been lucky that I've never had a bad experience, but I've definitely had ones where you do sort of walk out and go, "Oh my gosh, I can do this eight times a week with this person. And it will be just a joy every night." It's so easy. And when you meet Shawn, everyone falls in love with Shawn. There's just no person that's ever not immediately been enamored with him. So I was very, very lucky on that front, but I think that it can be super awkward if you don't enjoy the person you're with. So I think that that was one of the things where, because we both had been professional actors for a long time, we both knew that when we met, it was like, "Oh, this is different. Like, this is special. Thank goodness. This is going to be fun." You know?
[00:14:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And I can, I can relate to that just on the dancer level of when you're doing partnering, it is so physically close. I mean, you're, you're literally touching each other so that you can be supported in pretty cool ways in these different lifts and all sorts of different things. And I, I relate to the fact that sometimes I've worked with partners where it felt like a lot more work. I mean, I was also always lucky to have people who were awesome to work with, but yeah, when I met the, the guy who is currently my dance partner was like a very similar experience of, "oh, this is easy." And this is a lot of fun versus, you know, like, feeling like it's more of a job. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so your tribute show, I'd, I'd love to delve into that a little bit more. I think that is such a cool thing that you guys have developed and, and obviously you've gotten to tour with it and do all sorts of wonderful things.  How long of a process was that to sort of write the show and, you know, come up with all of the different components. I mean, I, I can only imagine from my production experience, but I feel like this is a whole 'nother level when you're doing something to be a tribute to people who came before you essentially.
[00:16:08] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah, absolutely. We sort of live, we sort of lived in their, in their music for a good period of time. Right? Not only like we listened to almost everything and like we went through there, you know, as much as possible. And to really try to, you know, look at every video we could find and read everything we could find.  I mean, we, we fell in love with them, you know? And so then when we get to the point where we're creating the show, it really made us want to do them justice, you know?
[00:16:35] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. And knowing that they were such a special couple for those of you guys that don't know Steve and Edyie were, they worked together and they lived together and were married for 55 years. So, and they were on over 90 albums between the two of them both together and separately. And they had hugely successful solo careers, but they also were one of the best known duos at the time. And we're friends with Frank Sinatra and toured with him and on the Carol Burnett Show, people knew them from the Carol Burnett Show. Yeah, it's a legacy. Yeah, all of that music that it was really hard for us to whittle it down to just a 90 minute show. I mean, that was part of the hard part was going in and saying, "But we love all of this stuff." How do we try to make, you know, how do we try to do them justice and tell their story in a way that resonates with ours. And also get to do this incredible music that spans so many decades, but still has a real through line of sophisticated pop music. That's really what they were known for.
[00:17:41]And so that was the easy part was being able to sit back and sort of go, "Oh, what's good? Well, everything's good." Now the hard part is how do you pick what to do, what to do? And so, like Shawn said, we really did live in their world for a long time and, and touring with the show, one of the things that's been really great is that we've met a lot of people that were either related to, or were friends with, or worked with Steve and Eydie along the way. Everyone from like roadies, we had a guy who told us that he was, he worked backstage and that Edyie Gormé would sit there at a table Pac-Man that she used to travel with, like back when Gameboys, right, were a thing, or you couldn't put an app on your phone, she used to have one of those full tabletop things that they, she would sit and she'd have her hair in curlers with like a martini in one hand and a cigarette in the other, playing this tabletop. And you can't find that, right, in an interview with Johnny Carson. You can only find that from people who knew them. So that's been really cool too, to sort of live in that space and have people resonate with the show so much that we always try to do, you know, some kind of a talk back with the audience if we can, after the show. And they've taught us just as much as we've entertained them. So that's been a really neat thing to, to add to our repertoire along the way.
[00:18:55] Shawn Kilgore: It is. That's one of my favorite things about it is, is getting to meet the audiences afterward and getting, getting to meet the people who did work with them or they, they knew them. And getting those stories like that story that Natalie just told, like she said, not anything you would ever find on the internet. We would never know that if we didn't come across that person. And now that story is in the show, we tell that story in the show. So when people see the show, they're getting to hear, you know, the things that they knew and loved and remember about Steve and Edyie, but also some of these more personal touches that we're weaving into the story that we tell, you know, so it's, that's a really cool thing about it and, you know, see there's, their story really is probably, I would venture to say, even to this day, one of the greatest Hollywood love stories there is. They met on the original Tonight Show, you know, way, way back in the day when they, they were very young, they were cast as singers side by side-by-side with Steve Allen. They met there, you know, they fell in love. They were together for over 55 years and they managed to stay married and work together that closely for that long is, is really a remarkable thing, you know?
[00:20:01] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. And what they did so beautifully too, was that onstage, they jabbed at each other, like only a married couple really can. And that's something that I think we're really lucky to be able to bring sort of that wit and humor into the show because it keeps it alive and fresh for us even after all these years, because I think we might have a very similar dynamic to what Steve and Edyie had on interviews and stuff just as people. So that's been fun to recreate too. People, our audiences swear that we're married. I mean, they, you know, they can't believe it when we tell them, we don't really tell them in the show, but if people ask us afterwards, you know?
[00:20:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that is so fun. I mean, but, okay. So then to be compared to, to such an iconic couple and yeah, what a feat in general, let alone with the pressures of being super famous and having these amazing careers and things like that. So kudos to them, but was it ever incredibly intimidating at all to sort of think like, "Oh my goodness, people are comparing us to them. How do we do this justice?"
[00:21:05]Shawn Kilgore: I would say it's not really because we've never tried to impersonate them in any way. We really are going out there. We're singing in our own voices.  We're talking as ourselves. We're not putting on their persona in any way. But we feel very good about the, the way that we're honoring them and their careers and their lives and what we've put together and our audience, you know, based on what the audience is say, you know, it's, it's a good-- we feel, we feel good about where we are with it and how it all just sort of came together. It all full sort of feels like it was meant to be for us.  Maybe some might think a weird thing to say, but you know, the way our stories connected and how similar it is to their story, they met when they were cast on a show together, you know? So did we and we are doing this because people told us, you know, when they saw us perform together, that we reminded them of them. And so it just feels like the universe has told us this is what we're supposed to be doing.
[00:21:59] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, the only time I can say I was intimidated was when we were doing our show, we sat down in Vegas for awhile and we found out afterwards that Steve Lawrence's people had sent people to come see the show. And I talked to them on the phone afterwards and they, they loved the show. They thought it was great. I'm glad I didn't know they were in the audience the night they were there. But knowing that they had like sent people to make sure that the show was-- because they'd heard, well, I mean, we had, we had told them we were coming and they had they come to sort of vet the show and it was nice to hear that they, they enjoyed the show-- but that I'm glad I didn't know ahead of time, I would have been a ball of nerves if I had known that they were listening to me saying her iconic songs on stage.
[00:22:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. That is, that is so cool. Definitely meant to be, it sounds like. And now, I'm excited to hear that you guys are going to be able to go back to performing again. I know COVID sort of threw a curve ball at many different people, especially performing artists, but tell me a little bit more about your show that you're doing now, these live productions that interview people and things like that sounds like an incredible way to bring, like you said, positivity to the world. I'm just super curious how that came about and how that's going.
[00:23:13] Shawn Kilgore: The funny thing is it came about. So after like eight months about of not being together, not singing any of our tunes, we were both feeling good. We got together, we had maybe a bottle, maybe a bottle and a half of wine. And we were like, "Hey, let's play Russian roulette with our songs and see what we remember." And we decided to do it live on Facebook. 
[00:23:34] Natalie Cordone: I'm glad that we know each other well enough that we were okay. If things didn't go well, because it was good, it was fun. It wasn't always good. I guess that's a good...
[00:23:43] Shawn Kilgore: That's a perfect way of saying it, but even when it, yeah, even when it wasn't, it was still fun, you know, so that's kind of how it all started. We enjoyed it. We had, you know, we got great feedback from that and that's sort of pushed us in the direction of trying to do something on a more regular basis. And, and now we're sort of, have delved into this world of podcasting and podcasting with video, and I'm really excited about the, about the direction, the direction of it.
[00:24:08]Natalie Cordone: And Sean and I had both expected along the way that we would be broadcast journalists. It's odd. That was where we kind of had both begun thinking our careers would end up and it's fun to have brought it full circle where that's really sort of what all podcasters and video podcasters are doing now. And it's neat to come back to that sort of love of ours that we had to put aside while we were touring all over the place for the last umpteen years together.
[00:24:33] Shawn Kilgore: And we really are about sort of modeling the show after sort of, so it is sort of modeled after that sort of Live with Regis. And I always say Regis, but...
[00:24:41] Natalie Cordone: I like the Regis and Kathie Lee and we can stick with that one. We can go old school, Shawn, that's alright.
[00:24:46] Shawn Kilgore: Kathy Lee would sing sometimes, but she would not have Regis sing with her.
[00:24:50] Natalie Cordone: No, that's for sure. I think she might've pushed him off the stage, but she wouldn't have the bottom line.
[00:24:54]Shawn Kilgore: So we sort of modeled after that kind of field. So it has a very fun lighthearted, we wanted it to be very conversational. We didn't want it to be about any one particular topic so that we could have, you know, it seems like, you know, even like how you're doing, you know, you have a variety of people in the arts, which is awesome. But yeah, so we sort of like, we, like Natalie said, we next week are having a, a baker on the show. And then, you know, we were having some other podcasters on the show and we have had musicians and like Natalie said, pet dog rescues. We've had, so open to just anything that would make anyone feel good or lift them up after, you know, a long day. Or a long year...
[00:25:31] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, that seems to drag out.
[00:25:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, that's fantastic. I'm so glad you guys are doing that. And so, and I'm sure I have more questions, but I'm sure that there are people who are super interested in following your journey and connecting with you and, and, you know, getting to experience these live shows. Is there a way for people to find you and connect with you and, and support you?
[00:25:54]Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely.
[00:25:55] Natalie Cordone: They sure can! They can find us on Facebook. They can find us on YouTube and they can also find us on our website. And you can always look us up as Cordone and Kilgore. So if you find us on Facebook, it's Cordone and Kilgore, Instagram: Cordone and Kilgore, YouTube: Cordone and  Kilgore, and then on the web it's cordoneandkilgore.com. So super easy. We are very unimaginative when it comes to naming things. So you can just always find us as.
[00:26:22]Shawn Kilgore: It's just us. That's what, you know, this is a beautiful thing. It's just us.
[00:26:26]Natalie Cordone: All the time everywhere. Our show, as of right now is streaming live at 7:00 PM Eastern time, 4:00 PM Pacific on most Mondays. And you can always find it after the fact on those channels as well.
[00:26:40] Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely. And they are also posted to IGTV because we're not able to go live to Instagram, so they are edited and then posted to IGTV. And then again, you know, we take then the audio from it and then do an edit of that for audio podcasts that are currently available on Spotify and Stitcher. And then and again, hopefully we'll be expanding that audience pretty soon as well.
[00:27:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Well, that's, that's very exciting. I am personally delighted to follow your journey and also to support this live show in particular, because that just sounds fantastic. I can't wait to tune in, but yeah. So I'm, I'm just curious. I'm sure this has happened to you both on multiple occasions, but are there any stories that stand out to you? Where either somebody was experiencing art that you were creating or, you know, a show or something like that, or that you personally got to witness that was really impactful? It was kind of this moment to remember, like, I, I need to file this away because this is really special.
[00:27:44]Shawn Kilgore: Yeah.
[00:27:45]Natalie Cordone: From my own personal experience and watching someone else create that really moved me in a way that I'll never forget. I've seen so many shows, both my friends and other professionals' work, but the one that hit me, the strongest that I can sit here and put myself right back in the theater was-- I watched Audra McDonald do "110 in the Shade." And there is a song called "Old Maid" towards the end of the first act, I believe. And, and she ripped me to shreds. And I just remember, I'm still, I'm getting chills, just thinking about it as I'm sitting here. And it was the way that she connected to the material that she was singing. And it was that she was, she's a brilliant vocalist, but she was really experiencing that, the moment in a way that I could feel in my own body and my own soul, the way that she was experiencing that moment for that role. And I was sobbing in the audience and the audience was completely full. 
[00:28:54] I had gone to theater by myself, which I do often, and I didn't know either of the people sitting next to me and I know they thought I was nuts. I kept getting like those sideways glances of ,why is this? Why are you crying? Now the whole entire audience wasn't sobbing. And it, for me was one of those pinnacle moments of great art that I got to experience and is something that no one will ever get to do again, if you weren't in that theater. And I think that's what I love so much about live performance is that it is temporal. And when it's done, it's done. And any time I get to experience live performance, dance, music, if it's being made in front of you, that's something that no one can take away from you, right? My house could burn to the ground. I could lose everything I have, but no one can take that experience for me. And that's one of the things that I love so much about art and about live performance.
[00:29:50] Shawn Kilgore: That's a great answer. I feel like that's why we as artists and why everybody who loves art comes back to it because you're always, I don't know. It's sort of like, when you have a moment like that, you want another one, so you seek it out. And so you're, it's like trying to chase that high. Yeah. I love it. So that, but that was a great answer, I think, but for me, I've had many impactful moments with art. My most recent one though, however, was getting to see a Bette Midler performance of "Hello, Dolly" in New York City for me now that I can tell you why I sobbed, not all the way through, but there were moments where, I mean, I, and not for, because it was, it was just the most amazing-- I don't know. And I'm getting chills thinking, just thinking about it, talking about it. Cause it was, you felt like I don't even know how-- I can't even put it in words. I'm at a loss for words, trying to even explain what it was, how it was, but...
[00:30:45] Natalie Cordone: Well, I know that when they came out for "Put on Your Sunday Clothes," and I know we've talked about this, when they did the "Parade of the Costumes," it's what you've wanted every musical to ever be in all the world. And I know, I remember you talking about how she just touched you so much and I, I can feel it listening to you talking about it.
[00:31:04] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Like, and after that iconic, the iconic "Hello, Dolly" number and just the roar of the, you know, in full Broadway theater. And as everyone like stood up and I, I swear it went on for like five minutes or more the, the standing ovation, like it was, yeah. I just love it. I love, yeah, that was awesome.
[00:31:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. That is so cool. Well, yeah, you both have incredible stories about art being impactful and really like the, the idea of the art addict.
[00:31:38]Natalie Cordone: We might have to make a t-shirt.
[00:31:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Thankfully it's the healthiest addiction you can probably have, right? Oh, man. I feel like that needs to be explored further. We might, you know, that's fantastic.
[00:31:52] Natalie Cordone: Art might make you poor, but it'll definitely get you high.
[00:31:53]Lindsey Dinneen: This is perfect. I love it. Oh my gosh. And I totally resonate with what you were both talking about with live theater. I mean, I'm so grateful that there are so many avenues nowadays to view art virtually whether it's a, you know, it's a musical or something else, but there's nothing that compares to live theater, even as a performer. I feel, you know, if you're taped it's, it's nice. I mean, I'm glad to have that so I can go back in and see it again. But there's nothing like that feeling of just being on stage and looking out into the audience and hopefully it's a super dark theater, so you don't see anyone's face, you know? Oh, that's awesome. That's so exciting. So when's your first live performance back?
[00:32:40]Natalie Cordone: We are so lucky that we will be performing at the Grand Oshkosh in Oshkosh, Wisconsin coming on June the 11th. It's a Friday night and there'll be a live broadcast of it as well that's completely free. So if this happens to air before June 11th than anyone wants to watch it, if you go to the, if you Google the Grand Oshkosh or watch any of our shows, we always try to put up a link for it. That night you can watch the free live broadcast of the show along with the 50 or so people that are going to be allowed into the house that are going to be socially distanced in the balcony for the night, but we get to have our three piece band with us. We're going to get to actually tour up there again.
[00:33:19]Shawn Kilgore: And it will be a really nice stream too. It's going to be a three camera shoot and that's all thanks to, I believe a sponsor, right, Natalie? Somebody, a corporate sponsor, that's sponsoring these, the stream so that we can share the show with, you know, an even broader audience, which is awesome.
[00:33:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is fantastic. You know, it's so interesting because again, in so many ways artists have had to really switch gears or be a little bit differently innovative, I would say. I think in general artists are very good at adapting, but yeah, I do like the fact that it's kind of opened the world to some of our artistic endeavors that might not necessarily get to see. Like, I wouldn't necessarily get to see that show, but now I can. And that's, that's really exciting, you know, and just to have those opportunities. So yeah.
[00:34:06] Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely. There've been some crazy-- I just finished a project where it was eight actors, all in different states, all working with green screens. And it was a sketch comedy show, and that would have never happened, you know, if this didn't happen. So yeah, absolutely. There have been some, some good, some really interesting and cool things to come out of it, for sure.
[00:34:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, your stories are just so fantastic. And I literally have been sitting here smiling the whole time. So this has been fantastic and wonderful. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you two would be up for that.
[00:34:44] Shawn Kilgore: Sure.
[00:34:45] Natalie Cordone: Oh yeah!
[00:34:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:34:52]Natalie Cordone: Ooh. I feel like we should have studied. All right. So what is art to you? Apparently we answered this earlier and the answer is like a drug. I think art to me is self-expression in a way where you're attempting to communicate something that is incommunicable to another person.
[00:35:10] Shawn Kilgore: That's good.  I think for me, it's the opportunity to escape.
[00:35:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:35:23]Shawn Kilgore: To keep it alive, to keep it going.
[00:35:26]Natalie Cordone: I think for me, it's to tell the truth, whatever your truth is in that moment, to be vulnerable enough, to be honest, in a way where you are sharing something real, sharing a piece of yourself with people that you might never meet or really get to know.
[00:35:46]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to artists who put their work out there and provide some context behind that, whether it's, you know, as simple as a title, or whether it's show notes, whether it's the context behind it, the inspiration sort of that, that prompted it. Versus exclusive referring to artists that put their work out there, but don't provide the context and basically leave it solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.
[00:36:22]Shawn Kilgore: I, for me, I think inclusive because it should be also about the educational piece of it and to let young people growing up today know how it all works, you know, and hopefully to be able to inspire. 
[00:36:37] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. I think for me it can be, it can be valid in either direction. I think it's really up to the discretion of the artist as to what they want that experience to be for their viewer or their audience. I know for myself, I much prefer to make what would be considered inclusive art. And I think for the most part, I prefer to be the viewer of it as well. But I think that both of them are valid. It just depends on what the project is. I think, I know that wasn't really an answer, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick D, all of the above.
[00:37:13] Shawn Kilgore: That's always the best-- if it's an option, I'm going with it.
[00:37:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right. No. And, and you're absolutely right. You're both right. I mean, there's value in both. And, and I think it's, it's really interesting to hear the answers to that particular question, because everyone has a different, you know, opinion, just like art is subjective, so is that question. I love it. Well again, thank you guys so very much for being here today. I'm just so thrilled to hear your stories. And I'm, I'm very excited about what you guys are doing. I'm going to mark it in my calendar to catch that live stream, because that's really exciting to me too. And, you know, with your, with your live shows that you're doing weekly, I think-- I just know that what you bring to the world brings so much positivity and light and value. And I just commend you two for doing that. And for choosing to look on the bright side, choosing to highlight the good that's happening, because that is so needed. And I just know that what you're doing is making a tangible difference in people's lives. And so I just want to commend you for that. And thank you for that because you know, it, it does take you time and effort and I appreciate it. So thank you.
[00:38:29] Shawn Kilgore: That's very nice, Lindsey. Thank you so much. This was really a lot of fun.
[00:38:33] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. Thank you. And we hope that you will be a friend of our show. We would love to have you on as a guest, not to put you on the spot, but we would love to have you. And so hopefully we'll get a chance to collaborate again because your spirit is so open and kind, and the work that you do here to, to gain the following of the people who rely on getting to hear you every week. We just were glad that we were able to share.
[00:38:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And, oh my gosh, yes! I would absolutely love to be a guest. That would be a huge honor.
[00:39:01]Natalie Cordone: We'll have our people call your people.
[00:39:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you again so much. I'm very much looking forward to that opportunity as well, but also, thank you so much for everyone who has listened to this episode. And, oh my goodness, if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would just love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:39:26] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Episode 053 - Jeff Leisawitz

In today's episode, I welcome Jeff Leisawitz! He is a life coach for creatives, author, and an award-winning musician/music producer and filmmaker. His episode is full of advice for aspiring artists as he shares his journey from summer camp and learning to play the drums, to now helping other creatives live their dreams. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is of Jeff himself!) 
 
Get in touch with Jeff Leisawitz: www.jeffleisawitz.com
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 53 - Jeff Leisawitz
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Jeff Leisawitz. He is a life coach for creative types. And did I get it right again?
[00:00:46] Jeff Leisawitz: Totally got it right!
[00:00:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes! Day made. But I'm so excited to chat with you today, Jeff. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:00:55] Jeff Leisawitz: Of course happy to be here. Thank you.
[00:00:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I'd love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background,  how you've just sort of developed obviously into this really cool life coaching career and just more about you.
[00:01:11] Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. Well, I have always been the creative type. When I was a little kid, I was what you might call the weird friendless kid. I don't know if you, or, you know, any of your listeners there can relate to that, but it seems to be going around. So, you know, I was kind of always locked in, maybe not locked in my imagination, but you know, had a magical world, basically. And when I was about maybe seven or eight, I went to summer camp and it was a sleepover camp. And this was like the late seventies. And there was an extra cabin where a counselor brought up his drum kit and every night after dinner, he would play the drums. And I would sit outside, you know, maybe 30 or 40 feet under a tree, fireflies are coming out, you know, and just listening to this.
[00:02:01] And this was, you know, this was when classic rock was really starting. You know, this was Springsteen and Genesis and you know, Bowie, and The Stones and all that great stuff. So anyway, one day he invited me into this little cabin to listen to him play the drums, and it completely blew my mind. So I, you know, a few years later declared to my parents that I was going to be a rock star. When you're in high school, it's like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Oh, rockstar, you know, of course.
[00:02:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course.
[00:02:29] Jeff Leisawitz: So, yeah, of course. So you know, I've done tons of music and writing and filming, you know, filmmaker, I wrote a book, all this kind of stuff, as well as being around these things. I was a music journalist for many years, but I've always been into helping people and optimizing the human experience, you know, like how can we have a better life? How can we not only achieve more, but just have a richer experience of life. So I practiced, I trained and practice something called NLP, stands for neuro-linguistic repatterning. I practiced that for many years, and then I got into coaching for creatives. So, you know, I work with artists and illustrators and songwriters and screenwriters and authors and really just all kinds of people. And it's, it's fantastic to help people find their truth, help them be more authentically creative, and for the ones who choose to be more successful you know, business-wise with this stuff. So that's like the super brief bio right there.
[00:03:39] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Perfect. Well, and yes, I think super brief bio is a good description because there were so many times I wanted to be like, wait, you did what? So this is cool. So, okay. So you mentioned being a filmmaker, can you share more about that experience? That's a pretty unique undertaking.
[00:03:57] Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. Well, I've always been a writer. I've always loved movies. So I wrote, I, you know, I took all these classes. I was mentored by the top professor at UCLA, which is a very big deal and you know, writing all these screenplays running around Hollywood. And what you basically try to do is get a producer to buy your screenplay, and then they put the money behind it and they get the crew and the stars and all that and make the movie. Well, I did that for years and I would get all these bites on my stuff, but not a sale, no sales. So I was like, you know what, "Screw this." I, I tend to default to the punk rock attitude. Okay. I have to step back for a second. So one of the tenants of punk rock is D I Y. Do it yourself. And that has always served me well, as it served you, what really any, every creative person. So, you know, with this DIY attitude, I was like, "Well, if you guys don't want to, you know, buy my script and do it, well, I'll write a short film and do it myself."
[00:05:04] So I wrote the short film, it's called "Mystic Coffee," and I figured, "Well, I've got a thousand dollars. That ought to cover it. I mean, that's a lot of money, right?" Well, at the end of the day, this 12 minute film was $11,000 to create like, "Ooh, wow." You know, however it turned out great. It was a great experience, all this and that. So then what you do in general is put the word out to film festivals. And if you win film festivals, that's kind of like a big feather in your cap, and you're more likely to get hired or sell your screenplays and stuff like that. So I put it out to all these film festivals and I didn't get anywhere. I, I just didn't win anything. I'm just like, "Geez, wow. Maybe I'm not as good at this as I thought." And then I got this call from like straight out of the blue, and it was this woman who worked for a streaming video service like Netflix, it's called gaia.com, and she's like, "A friend of mine at a film festival showed me your movie.  We want to license this for international distribution and pay you for it." I'm like, "Oh my God!" I basically skipped the film festival. Essentially, I leap-frogged over it to the goal. It was sort of like the next goal. So that thing has been streamed at least tens of thousands of times all over the world and, you know, getting royalties on that. So how cool is that? Right? You just do it, you just do your thing.
[00:06:35] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing! Congratulations. How exciting. Oh my gosh. I love stories like that.
[00:06:41]Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. And you never know, you sorta never know when, when and where the success will be, because like I said, you know, after submitting it to all these film festivals, I was like, "Wow, maybe this thing stinks, but clearly it did not because you know, a real company picks it up and, you know, licensed it."
[00:07:02] Lindsey Dinneen: That's, that's a huge deal. And I think you're absolutely right. You kind of touched on it just briefly, but I've always had this personal philosophy of "do all the things," which is a little extreme, but in the sense of like, you know, when an opportunity comes knocking, you never know where it will lead. And so if it's, if it's in line with who you are and what you're trying to do, just go for it. Just try it because again, you just don't know, and magic can happen that way. And you know, one introduction can lead to the next can lead to the next, which is just feels miraculous. It's like the whole concept of overnight success, which is not a thing, but you know, eventually pieces fall in place.
[00:07:45] Jeff Leisawitz: They do. And that's actually a chapter in my book, which I call "Yes And." "Say Yes And," which means, you know, invite those possibilities towards you. And then the end is let's add value. You know, what can we do to take this opportunity or this new relationship or whatever and up, up level it, make it better, make it cooler, make it more interesting. Make it more creative.
[00:08:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, sounds like our philosophies are very in line, so there you go. There you go. Okay. That's really awesome. Congrats on that. And definitely I'm super excited to check it out. I'll, you know, I'm highly going to  encourage anyone listening to this to obviously go check it out as well, too. So that's, that's fantastic. And then you wrote a book. That's a pretty big deal. How was that process? Was that like, obviously you've already had writing experience of course, but was it a different kind of different animal or how did that whole thing work out?
[00:08:45] Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I you know, I live in Seattle, so it is often a thing for me to go to the, one of the many, many independent coffee shops in our town and guzzle coffee on the weekend and do some writing, and I'll write poems or just free-write or, you know, just like really anything, screenplays, whatever. And one day I just kind of read this essay or something and I was done and I was like, "Geez, this would kind of be, it's kind of like a good start for a book." So I really didn't think about it. I just wrote the book. And from there, it's kind of taken off, lots of positive feedback and it's out there helping people all over the world. So, yeah, I didn't try to do it. I just kind of did it.
[00:09:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. And what is the book about? Is it sort of life philosophies and, and, well, I'm just curious.
[00:09:42] Jeff Leisawitz: The book is called "Not Effing Around: the No BS Guide for Getting your Creative Dreams off the Ground." So it is, you know, sort of manual or manifesto or something to help people, you know, do the things that they love. I've spent decades essentially banging my head against the wall to get to the, you know, to the successes that I've had. In the meantime, I've had way more failures, and this book is really about helping people avoid as much of the pain and move closer to their dreams without that. So, you know, it's kind of like a short guide. It's like the, it's basically the book that I wish I read when I was 20.
[00:10:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Nice. Well, thank you for writing that for everyone else so they can have that kind of guide.
[00:10:36] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I'm happy to give a free, free eBooks to people on my website so they can just check that out.
[00:10:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, okay. Yes, definitely.
[00:10:47] Jeff Leisawitz: You can buy it on Amazon too if you want. You can get it free as an e-book if you like.
[00:10:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Brilliant. All right. And now you're also doing life coaching and it's specifically for creators or people with a creative bent. Is that correct?
[00:11:04] Jeff Leisawitz: That is correct. It is, you know, like I said, artists and musicians and screenwriters and people like that, but it's also, I also work with a lot of what I call heart-centered solopreneurs, right? These are people who want to do some kind of business or side hustle, but  it's more than just the money, right? They, they want to create a world and create some income, but it's not just about selling some widgets, that kind of thing.
[00:11:33]Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. And so you're encouraging... well... I'm extrapolating... Is part of what you're doing to help, especially creative types, understand the essential business fundamentals, if they want to be successful. Like as kind of helping them have an entrepreneurial mindset or what all do you do to help?
[00:11:57] Jeff Leisawitz: Yes, that is exactly right. There are, as you know, zillions of creatives out there who would love to be making money from their art or whatever it is that they do. However many people just-- almost because they have such a creative mind-- they sort of lack the basic elements of what, how business works, how, you know, internet and social media marketing, finding a demographic, like all these kinds of things. So I fortunately, you know, I've got the creative side of me, but I also am the son of a, you know, my mom had her own business in the eighties as you know at home business as a woman. It was kind of amazing. So I, I got a lot of this, you know, this entrepreneurial spirit. And her parents owned a shop in Pennsylvania, you know, way back in the fifties and forties and stuff like that. So I've kind of got both sides of that set. Of course I've studied both sides of this extensively, so yeah, I can help people get their creativity monetized, essentially.
[00:13:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes, we, we need more of that. And from people who also understand the creative mindset, I would say, because it is a little bit, you know, different coming into the business world, if you have more of a creative bent. So it's, it's great that that's what, who you cater to specifically and help them, you know, actually make a living that will support their dreams and goals. So, yeah, that's fantastic.
[00:13:38] Jeff Leisawitz: Right, because it can be done. Plenty of people do it, many more people do not do it. And that is, you know, there's a level of talent obviously that you need to have or develop and then it's business. Just like any other business.
[00:13:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. Okay. So I know that you are also a musician and a photographer, I believe as well. Do you want to share a little bit about those opportunities that you've had?
[00:14:05]Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. I mean, I've been making music since I was, you know, like I told you that story there as a little kid, and then at about maybe 14, I got my first guitar and I would just write songs in the basement, hundreds of songs and you know, moved to Los Angeles to look for opportunities in the music biz, eventually moved up to Seattle and that's where I got into computer recording very early. Way, way before, you know, everybody does this now, but back in '98 or '99, it was very difficult and very expensive, but I got into it, and I started pushing my music towards film and TV and had quite a bit of success with that. Thousands of placements, background, you know, music on film and TV, which all generates royalties and stuff like that. I made an album which was electronic versions of U2 songs. I've been a U2 fan my whole life. So I got a bunch of female singers and did that, and that thing's had over a million plays on the streaming services. So that's cool. And I also won a big award, Best Independent Electronic Artist in the World in 2000. So that...
[00:15:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Woah! That's a huge deal. Congratulations.
[00:15:27] Jeff Leisawitz: It's a huge deal. I don't know if I buy it, but you know, it was pretty good.
[00:15:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Right.
[00:15:33] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah. So I've worked with tons of musicians and now I actually teach songwriting and recording at a college up here near Seattle. So I've been in music really, you know, since I've been a kid.
[00:15:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Oh my goodness. How cool! You have gotten some of the most interesting, coolest opportunities, and obviously you've worked so hard for them. It's not like they just got handed to you or anything like that, but that is super cool.
[00:15:58]Jeff Leisawitz:  And that is for sure. You know, and, and seriously talking about opportunities. You know, most opportunities in this world are the ones that we make, right? I mean, out of, out of the hundred or a thousand things or something that has advanced my career or whatever, I am sure that 95% of them I have created in some way. It almost never happens that somebody bangs on my door and says, "You know, here's, here's the thing. And here's money. Go."
[00:16:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I do. Yes. I am in complete agreement with you on that of make your own opportunities is really important. Open your own doors.  Yes, absolutely. So I'm curious...  I know that, you know, art has been a part of your life for almost all of it, if not the whole thing. Are there any moments that kind of stand out as experiences either with maybe somebody reacting to your art or you reacting to someone else's art that was just kind of like a moment to remember this because it stands out?
[00:17:06]Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. Well, I mean the first one was definitely, you know, at the summer camp. Fast forward like probably 10 or 12 years or something, I played an open mic night at a local bar when I was in college, and my parents came out to see this and we're playing and, oh man, we, we were really freaking good that night. And I look out, you know, from the stage or from the bar, and I see my mom dancing on a table and I'm like, I'm like, "Oh my God, like, I'm done. You know, like I've completed my mission on earth kind of thing." So that was, you know, that was pretty cool. That was a big moment.
[00:17:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. Oh my goodness. Yes, you have, you have made it when... Oh, that's fantastic. Cool.  I'm sure that there are lots of us listening who would want to definitely get in contact with you. Is there a way for us to do that?  I know you mentioned your movie, but what other ways can we sort of get in touch with you and support your work?
[00:18:20] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, your best bet is to just find my website, jeffleisawitz.com. And from there, I've got a ton of blog posts, links, all kinds of stuff. Like I said, you can download my book, if you like. And also I do complimentary 15 minute coaching sessions with people. So if you think it might be something good for you and you just want to check it out and see how I can help you, I would love to meet you. So you just go in there and find the coaching page. And click click and we'll see you on Zoom before you know it.
[00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, so now I'm curious, obviously you've had such a tremendous background and, and have worked in so many different art forms. And I would say I'm sure coaching is also an art form and a science, but I'm just curious: what advice would you have for somebody who is interested in trying to support themselves and be an artist full-time but maybe is hesitant to take that leap. So maybe somebody kind of starting out, what, what would you say to encourage somebody in that situation?
[00:19:27]Jeff Leisawitz: Well, one thing is commit, right? And that doesn't mean commit every minute of your life, you know, but it means commit to what is comfortable for you. If you've got a full-time job and you need that, you know, as most people do, commit to doing one hour in the evening, three nights a week to work on your art, and three hours on the weekend, or, you know, whatever, you know, it feels right to you, but commit to it and then do it. And you'll start to see amazing progress. Another piece is learn the business. If you're trying to make this into a business and not just a fun thing to do, you need to understand how your industry works. And the more you understand that, the more chance you have of making money really.
[00:20:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:20:17] Jeff Leisawitz: There's always a lot to learn.
[00:20:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so true. I don't think we ever stop learning. Or, I hope not anyway. Awesome. Well, I, I love to ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with me doing that with you too.
[00:20:32] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:20:34]Lindsey Dinneen:  All right. Awesome. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:20:41]Jeff Leisawitz: Art is anything that a human creates with the intention of expression.
[00:20:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Perfect. Concise. And I like it. All right. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:21:00]Jeff Leisawitz: To authentically create. I mean, that's it. So you create with the truth of their experience, whatever that is. It's not about building skills, although that's great if you do, right? I mean, you look at it again and in music, punk rock, you know, the Ramones and the Sex Pistols and, you know, bands like that, vape sucked as musicians, but you could feel it, right? They were putting their heart and truth into the music and that's why it resonated so much.
[00:21:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Perfect. And then finally, and I'll define my terms a little bit in this question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that whether it's the inspiration behind it, or program notes or title or something just to kind of help understand where the artist was coming from. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts the work out there and doesn't provide context, so he or she leaves it solely up to the viewer to interpret it the way they will.
[00:22:13]Jeff Leisawitz: It's up to the artist. You know, I can't, I wouldn't comment on that. It's like, whatever you, whatever you feel is right for what you're doing is right.
[00:22:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. But as a participant, what do you personally prefer? Or do you like a little bit of both?
[00:22:30]Jeff Leisawitz:  Well, I mean, as far as visual art goes, in my opinion, if the art doesn't affect you by looking at it, if it's visual art, it has not done its job, right? It's trying to connect through that medium. So yeah, in that sense, I would go with that. And I would say if you have some kind of notes or artist's statement or whatever on the side, fantastic. It backs it up and it enriches it and can deepen the experience. So once again, both.
[00:23:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Cool. Well, all right, so I'm just interested to know, are there certain things that you're working towards now or are you going to be, I mean, in theory, are you going to be writing more or producing more music or what's kind of future Jeff's plans.
[00:23:26] Jeff Leisawitz: Right. Well, Lord knows, but  I recently just finished-- believe it or not-- a, a screenplay about summer camp. So I am currently running around, but phone calling and emailing producers and things like that. So I'm working on screenplays, but I'm also working on music. I'm doing a bunch of guided meditations. And as soon as the freaking COVID is over, I'm going to bust out my camera and take about 10 million pictures.
[00:23:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds perfect. That sounds so good. I cannot wait. Yeah. And travel and all those good things that we're missing, but, well, that sounds fantastic. Congrats on the new screenplay and everything. I'll, I'm sure we'll look forward to getting to see that produced too. And yeah, so I would definitely encourage any of our listeners who are interested in checking out Jeff's work, obviously a very accomplished artist and life coach. And if you are in the position of feeling like the next level for you is getting some personalized coaching, I can just tell from even just a brief conversation, that Jeff is definitely your guy. So I would highly recommend even just starting with that 15 minute call and kind of seeing where that takes you. Because obviously Jeff has a lot of wisdom to share, so yeah.
[00:24:49]Jeff Leisawitz: Thank you. And yeah, I love talking to people, so bring it on.
[00:24:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, Jeff, thank you so very much for being here today. Thank you so much for sharing your stories. And I loved everything from the summer camp. I love that that's what your next endeavor is about. I think that's fantastic. And I just really appreciate all the wisdom, little nuggets you shared along the way. And, so, thank you. Thank you for contributing art to the world. Thank you for what you're doing for creatives and really helping and making a difference. So I, I value that and, and thank you for that.
[00:25:24] Jeff Leisawitz: Thank you. And thanks for having me on your show.
[00:25:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you also to everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:25:41] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Episode 052 - Christopher John Garcia

In today's episode, I welcome Christopher John Garcia! Chris has had an amazing career journey as a museum curator and historian for the Computer History Museum, as well as podcaster and painter, and he talks about everything from AI-generated art to his podcast that discusses pieces of artwork in under three minutes. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of one of Chris' original pieces of artwork!)
 
Get in touch with Christopher John Garcia: https://www.facebook.com/JohnnyEponymous | https://www.instagram.com/johnnyeponymous/
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 52 - Christopher John Garcia
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen:  Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Christopher John Garcia, who is a curator, historian, and podcaster, and I'm just so excited to chat with him all about art and all the different ways that he has engaged with art and that he's currently still doing. And so thank you so much for being here, Chris. I really, really appreciate it.
[00:01:00] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, thanks so much for having me always glad to chat.
[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. If it's about art, I'm in.
[00:01:05]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well again, thanks for being here. And I would just love if you would share maybe a little bit about your background, how you got involved in your various art forms, and maybe a little of where you are today, too.
[00:01:21] Christopher John Garcia: Cool. Well, it's started long, long ago. 1999. I became a curator at the Computer History Museum and my focus was on computer graphics, music and art with an emphasis on early computer art. So 1950s through about 1980. And by going into that, you know, I had a little bit of an art history background. I minored in it in college and I've always been an art nerd. And I ended up starting a couple of podcasts that were actually centered around early computer art. One was called " Engineers and Enthusiasts," which is on a hiatus as soon as I can find all my files. But the second one is a "Three-Minute Modernist," which is, I take a single artwork usually, and I break it down in three minutes as sort of a, an emotional impact statement is what I do in three minutes, which can be a lot harder for big pieces than little you'd be surprised. But yeah, and so all of that. Then for some reason, I ended up staying home a lot in 2020, and I decided, you know, maybe I should become a painter. And so I, you know, I had never painted before. And so I decided, well fine. And I started doing a lot of my own paintings, which are semi-abstract expressionists works. What I usually do is I just squeeze paint directly onto paper, put another piece on top of it and then peel them apart. And then I'll do this with several sheets. So it's sort of a combination printing, painting methodology. But yeah, so it's, I'm your basic all around art nerd.
[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. Well, I am so excited to hear more about all of the different things, but especially the podcast. I'm so intrigued by that concept. I love it. What a challenge too, so kudos to you. But yeah. Okay. So breaking down artwork and sort of talking about it and having the constraint of three minutes, first of all, where did that idea come from? And then I guess second of all, how hard is that?
[00:03:16]Christopher John Garcia: Well, the idea actually came from a Doctor Who podcast. There is a Doctor Who podcast called "Two-Minute Time Lord." And it is it takes a Doctor Who episode or a topic surrounding Dr. Who and does a two minute episode. That's basically what you would say around the water cooler. And I figured, you know what? If it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough to be stolen by the gander. And I decided to take that concept and apply it to art because one, art has sort of discreet chunks. And I was seeing a lot of works that were-- I wouldn't say small-- but they were works that you could sort of come up with at least a nugget that you could expand on in for a couple of minutes without problem.
[00:04:03] And I learned that by looking at a discreet portion, it gave you one, a chance to really sort of look across the board. You could look at one piece from various areas, but two, it allowed you to go really fast. And so my proof of concept was a good five episodes before I released anything and realized, yeah, this will work. And then I realized that if I kept it to just modern and contemporary art, it would allow me to single out one area instead of going all the way around the world, having to deal with all the things, 'cause once you get into the more realist stuff and the movement and the genre works, you kind of get, you have to go longer. But with the contemporary stuff, you could more deal with the impact of the work on particularly, in this case, me and how it emotionally triggered sensations and feelings and take it sort of a little bit out of a, sort of a more academic realm and into a realm of art appreciation that I really love. Things like, you know, Sister Wendy, for example,  used to be a favorite of mine, but there's not really one of those for contemporary arts, so much that deals directly with individual pieces. And, you know, I figured it'd be a great place to go. And I realized that "art podcast" is a crowded field. And I said, me too.
[00:05:28]Lindsey Dinneen:   Indeed. Well, good for you. And again, I love that concept and I just think that's so cool. So, okay. So in dealing with modern and contemporary art, are you-- just out of curiosity-- are you going to galleries and being inspired by something particular or are you finding things on the internet or how is your process of deciding which art to kind of feature and unpack?
[00:05:54] Christopher John Garcia: Well, I have a very complex algorithm to do that. Random. Basically, yeah, I go to a lot of museums. In particular, I go to SF MOMA, the Anderson collection at Stanford, the Cantor Art Museum when I can get there to moment itself. And I also have a massive collection of photographs because I'm that guy at a museum who takes a picture of everything. So it's really based largely on what I encounter typically at museums. I do some web stuff. In particular, I'm starting to do more stuff with Instagram artists who I meet typically through Clubhouse who are working. And I find pieces that really resonate with something I speak of a lot. Like the next issue I'm doing is about a work that very much reminds me of two of my favorite artists, Lichtenstein and then Sam Francis, and it looks like what happened if they were to work together.
[00:06:46]But yeah, it's all over the place.  One of our recent episodes was about the work of Sol LeWitt that they turned into an app. I think it was by The Met, but it might've been a sort of an associated group that was how Sol LeWitt and his work-- and it's this very contained app that actually gives you a lot of different views into how Sol LeWitt goes. So it's a little bit across the board. I do some video art, a little bit of music, but I tend towards sound art and soundscape type stuff. And sort of looking at how they are still, it's all about the effect of you more emotionally, but also there's sort of what I call the emotional intellect, which is a thought that you have that isn't necessarily logical or reasonable, but it is a thought that provokes that same sort of region.
[00:07:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Very cool. Well, and you know, random is good too. I like complex algorithm. That was entertaining. So, okay. So yeah, that sounds like a really interesting way to go about it in terms of, you know, it's, it's also just like, well, what is speaking to me right now? And then, so I'm curious, in your process for these episodes, I know you've talked about maybe unpacking it sort of on an emotional level in what it evokes, but are you also going into the history? Are you looking into the context behind it from the artist's point of view or mostly just sticking with your own personal interpretation?
[00:08:20]Christopher John Garcia: You kind of have to do both. And you know, for example, if I talk about "Guernica" by Picasso, you kind of have to say the Spanish Civil War happened. But you don't necessarily have to go into specifically Picasso's long history in Cubism, his blue period, but you kind of have to make nods toward them . But what's really fascinating in a work like-- "Guernica" is a great example, and an episode I haven't done-- is when you pull out an aspect that has an emotional impact on you and for me, it's that, that wailing mother with her hands up and that sort of disjointed head that emotional impact also triggers an idea that, "Oh, well, this actually very much speaks to Picasso's Cubist period, this very much has this sort of the blue period emotional impact that he carried through the early part of his career." So it sort of naturally flows out of that, that you do deal with some of the, the history and the technique aspect. I don't deal deeply with technique most of the time, largely because art technique is still a little bit mysterious to me, but I really do try. You know, art has, if I decided to go in all art history nerd, like I often do with my wife, sadly it would be a six hour podcast.
[00:09:44]Lindsey Dinneen: So then in knowing yourself, you know what you need to limit yourself to. I like it. Yeah. I like it. Okay, cool. Well, okay. So your career is very cool and very unique, and I'm just curious, how do you sort of fall into an-- obviously you didn't fall into it-- but fall into a job like that because, I mean, what, what was your background that enabled you to then become this, this curator of a museum? That's just really interesting.
[00:10:14] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. Funny, you should ask. I was a floor worker, I basically a docent and tour guide and someone who told you to stop touching objects at the old Computer Museum in Boston. And it was slowly falling apart and getting ready to close. It would eventually be bought out by the Museum of Science. And I grew up in the Bay Area and I was out in Boston at that museum, but they had an affiliate in California. So when I went home for Christmas, one year I decided to visit and they said, "Yeah, we've got this job opening." And I said, "I will apply for this job because Boston is cold." And I ended up getting the job. Literally I fell into it because no one else wanted the job. It was $12.50 an hour. And no one else wanted that in Silicon Valley at that point except for me.
[00:11:05]And yeah, for 20 years that's what I did and what was great is that I was largely in charge of my own research interests. And that was fascinating. When you give the freedom to a curator to go and investigate what truly interests them and what they think is missing in the museum, what you gain is an incredible amount of insight and a lot of extra labor from the person who's actually doing the research. And it turned out that a lot of the stuff that I was doing was not only stuff that we didn't know previously, but we didn't see how it connected to the bigger world. And it was just a great job. 20 years. I got laid off in 2019, sadly. Hashtag #learntofundraise. But the real, the real fascinating thing about, you know, lucking into this gig, like I had my art history background, but really it was the fact that I knew how to give a really good tour, ended up getting me the job and, you know, I held onto it because it's just a thing that I really understood. And I think I really grew up with the museum itself.
[00:12:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Cool. How incredible. And I love that you were given that autonomy and freedom to explore the things that interested you and then get to just learn and grow. That's really cool. I think that's awesome. And so what was the most surprising thing maybe that you learned along that journey?
[00:12:36]Christopher John Garcia: So it, it's both surprising-- and then when I think about it, not at all surprising-- I got to go and meet a artist by the name of Harold Cohen. . Initially I knew him, his sort of work from the sixties and very early seventies as an abstract painter, sort of along the lines of if Hawking was working completely... David Hockney, not Hawking. Hawking is the scientist. Hockney was working completely abstract. Very, very great color palette, amazing line, but he got very interested in artificial intelligence and developed a system called Aaron, the AARON Paint System, which he developed for almost 40 years. And I got to spend a couple of days with him.
[00:13:28] And what was so surprising was he was talking about when he got into AI, it wasn't that-- the art community naturally sort of rejected the work because it wasn't clear who was the artist? Was it Harold Cohen or was it AARON, the Paint System that he developed. And it wasn't that 'cause that I understood, but it was that when you program a system to create art, it is naturally going to attempt to create art in the mode of its creator. Because the creator understands art in that way. So all AARON is a set of rules, but when you define a set of rules, you're going to define it with your own biases already installed. And it's fascinating to see that.
[00:14:23] And I managed to also connect with another computer music pioneer, who also does visual arts with his programs, guy by the name of David Cope. And he recognized that. And what he did to avoid that was he made it possible to input external work by, in his case for music mini files, from, you know, Shostakovitch, Scott Joplin, Bach, and so he removed himself from the set of rules. The rules were defined by the input, and it was so interesting that I never thought in a million years that just setting a set of rules into a computer program would actually have that much effect. And then when I thought about it, it was like, "Yeah, of course that's how you would do it." And then I realized, wait, there's a way to do it where it's not actually your rules. It's someone else's. I just love that.
[00:15:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh my goodness. That is so cool. I didn't even know that those technologies existed. So that's really fascinating to me that that's even a thing. How cool!
[00:15:27] Christopher John Garcia: Well, what's incredible about that is right now, we are in an absolute Renaissance of AI art. And it's scary because it is very, very quickly being monetized. We saw some of the first works done almost. All the major AI art is being done in Europe right now. In particular there's our groups in Amsterdam, in a couple different places in France, England. And what's amazing is that now they're starting to go to auctions and fetching high sums, but this isn't where we're going to see AI art. We're going to see AI art in hotel lobbies, hotel rooms, any place where large-scale art creation is necessary. And right now, almost all that work is outsourced typically to China or small artists who are willing to work for relatively cheap for reproduction. In this case, it's highly possible that AI will be creating all the art we encounter in public corporate spaces, and that's a very big change and will have a very big impact on not only the art market, but the art market that no one thinks about: the commercial art market for commercial properties.
[00:16:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Hm. So do you think that that's a good thing or is it not necessarily inherently good or bad? It just is different.
[00:16:45]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. That's... I go back and forth and it depends on how much I like computer programmers at the moment. I think it is a good thing in that we are developing systems that are able to get art out more quickly. And I think it's a bad thing of course, because it is going to put some artists out of work, but by having the work that can get out more quickly, it is going to drive the art market in general broader. And that's going to allow more artists to actually get work, to get commissions. Now, how, how that drives against one another, it's hard to tell. And new technologies and art are changing everything. And so it's a really, we're on kind of a knife's edge and we could fall either direction. We could either end up with a market that is an, a, an output that is AI driven. We have very little, as of yet, AI generated art that has made it into the museum space. And when you really look at the history of art, it's the stuff that gets into the museum space that ends up being the most significant. We're still seeing a massive influx of artists working today who are being displayed in museums. So I think the human is still going to be the more significant player in what art means and becomes, but I think AI is going to be a major part of what sells and that, you know, who knows which direction that'll go.
[00:18:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting to follow that journey then and see what does end up happening and how does it twist and weave through different avenues and yeah, that's going to be really different. Like, I'm, I'm just wrapping my head around it right now, thinking about it, because again, I didn't know these technologies existed, so I'm like, huh?  Okay. So, you know, you mentioned that you started taking that painting. What kind of artwork do you tend to lean towards with your own? Is it more abstract? Is it more realistic? What do you like?
[00:19:05] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, it's a hundred percent abstract just because I don't have the skills to actually do representational. But one of the things on my Instagram is that I'll post an image where it's literally, I squoze three tubes of paint onto a piece of paper. I covered it with a little glue and I put another piece of paper on top of it and I scan it later, usually after it dries, but when it doesn't dry, my wife gets mad. And people will start to recognize that, "Oh, that's obviously a picture of X, Y, and Z." And one of the other things I do on the side is I publish zines and I had squished a whole bunch of acrylic paint that I just tossed onto a piece of paper and I peeled it off, but I had let it dry a little bit before I squished it. So it made this sort of feathery looking look and it looks exactly like the cryptid known as Moth Man.
[00:19:56] And at that point I realized that something there's something in the sort of the chance operations space, that where even if you're not actively trying to create representational image, representational image will come forth. And so that picture of Moth Man, as I call it now, is a picture of Moth Man, even though I wasn't painting Moth Man. I wasn't painting anything. I was just putting paint on paper and that really, for me, raises some interesting questions as well. If I didn't mean to paint Moth Man, did I paint Moth Man? And the answer for me to that is, of course I'm painted Moth Man. What, are you crazy? Although I could get into the whole thing of that. Maybe Moth Man is some sort of entity that was working through me to make sure I painted a painting of him. But that might be a bridge too far, even for me.
[00:20:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. Of course. Well, that's cool. Oh my goodness. Okay. And so is that something that you anticipate you'll continue doing even sort of after things hopefully return to normal?
[00:21:00]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, I think what's really fascinating is that once I realized I loved the act of painting, I realized even more that I loved the material of painting. And I, I think painting can be a process that is laborious, that is tedious, that is mind numbing. It can also be one that is brief, that is freeing, that is inexact. And for me, it's definitely the latter, but the things that I love about it is just looking at how things react with one another. Like if I put oils and acrylics and inks on the same page and put a little Elmer's glue on top of it, and then put another page on top of it, the way it feels under the hand. Like that's a sensation that I can't think of repeating. And it's one that doesn't take long. It's just a couple of minutes even. And there's that sensation that's an irreplaceable thing. It's the aspect of the artists that I don't know if I ever really understood until I started painting myself, is that there are sensations to this that don't exist many other places. That the actual act of making marks on paper, on a canvas, whatever has a feeling. And when you find a feeling that is pleasurable or relieving or funky, you know, you're going to want to keep going back to that. So I don't see myself stopping painting. Probably painting a little less, but definitely it's something I'll keep doing that. And I have an Instagram to fill, so yes.
[00:22:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, excellent. Well, I'm just curious. I know you've gotten to meet some pretty cool artists yourself-- and obviously your experiences as a curator and as a podcaster have probably lent themselves to some really memorable moments-- but I wonder if there's anything that kind of really stands out to you as an encounter with art that was like just something to remember to kind of file back there and return to every once in awhile.
[00:23:17]Christopher John Garcia: Oh yeah. Bunch. I mean my first time I ever met an artist artist-- well, the first time I ever encountered an artist, this I should actually point out-- was Andy Warhol. And I didn't get to meet him, but I sat right behind him at Madison Square Garden at a WWF wrestling show.
[00:23:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.
[00:23:39] Christopher John Garcia: And he was always in the front row and always taking pictures with his little camera. But little seven year old me, I couldn't talk to them because even I knew who he was and I was seven, but I got to know Robert Rauschenberg a little bit because he would visit our college and he was a fascinating human in many ways. But what I learned when I went to a big exhibit of his at SF MOMA was that his interests were so broad because he was so interesting and wanted to make the world as interested in things as he was. And it was like one of the best things. Again, this is something that people may not realize, every pop artist loves wrestling. I do not know why this is true, but everyone I've met-- Rauschenberg, Warhol, didn't meet him, but still-- Lichtenstein, Marisol, all of them love wrestling. And what Robert Rauschenberg said that one time when we were-- 'cause you'd stopped by class, then a lot of us would go out drinking afterwards-- he said "You know, you have to be careful how you are positioning your art, whether or not it is referencing the zeitgeists or referencing some niche topics that only two people in the gallery will get." And it's, you know, if you do a painting of whole Cogan, everyone will get it. It's a zeitgeist. But if you're talking about Pak Song and Dusty Rhodes, you're talking about niche.
[00:25:09] And at that point, one, this was obviously made for me, even though he didn't know it. But two, he was really saying something that I bought into because you know, oh, this idea that there is a universality, but there's also a place for niche, which I love. But he was a really fun guy. I didn't see him after probably '97, but really had a good time with him. And I was very lucky. Another guy who's known more for music, but is actually a wonderful visual artist, is Mark Mothersbaugh of Divo. And I got to interview him, do an oral history with him. He has a fascinating eye for the world. And every day he writes one postcard size image he creates and he has thousands of them and they're beautiful. But then he was also doing this a very simple thing where he took classic, often Victorian, sometimes early 20th century photographs and uses Photoshop to place a mirror image of it. So it gives you that sort of awkward exactly symmetrical look.
[00:26:14] But yeah, those have been two of my favorite. I've been lucky that I've gotten to meet a lot of really fun artists through the museum. You know, there were a lot of folks who didn't feel like early computer was being talked about enough and we're very happy to have anyone who would be interested in this stuff. But always, you know, artists like everyone, there are good ones who are wanting to talk to you all day long. And there are others who don't. You sort of learned which is which.
[00:26:44]Lindsey Dinneen: For sure, for sure. Well, yeah. And, you know, just, it's so funny 'cause obviously everyone has different personalities and I would second that some artists are a little more approachable than others, but you know, that is okay. Well, I'm sure that some of our listeners are going to be super interested in your work, both as a podcaster and as a painter. And I'm wondering if there are ways for us to, of course, A) listen to your podcast and then B) check out some of your artwork.
[00:27:14] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, there absolutely are. I have my podcast on the internet,  just look for "Three-Minute Modernist" and you will find it all over the place. And then you can find my artwork and pictures of my kids, also things I cook, on Instagram at Johnny Eponymous, J O H N N Y E P O N Y MOU S. I'm also the same thing on Twitter, the same thing on Facebook, the same thing on pretty much everything. Since Friendster, I've been Johnny Eponymous. But yeah, and I'm, yeah, I'm all over the place. It's hard to miss me.
[00:27:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, first of all, thank you just so much again for being here and sharing your stories. And I'm just so fascinated learning about how technology and art intersect, and that's just so cool that you shared that very unique perspective. So I definitely appreciate that. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.
[00:28:10]Christopher John Garcia: Whew...
[00:28:10]Lindsey Dinneen: I know.
[00:28:11] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.
[00:28:12] Lindsey Dinneen: It's pressure.
[00:28:12] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.
[00:28:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:28:20]Christopher John Garcia: Art is that thing you do that is mostly useless, but ultimately important.
[00:28:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Care to elaborate, or are we just going to leave that be?
[00:28:32]Christopher John Garcia: I'll elaborate slightly. It is the shape of the tool, not the use of the tool, I think is the way I, I wrote it in a paper once when I was trying to be smart. It's really about something that brings you an emotional experience of some sort that isn't just because of what it does, but what it is. And so, you know, we have paintings around the house 'cause my wife's mother's a actual painter who paints actual paintings. And every time I see one of them, it makes me feel hungry and it's because there's all sorts of food in it. But, you know, I consider that to be art because it draws an emotion out of me.
[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure, sure. Perfect. Okay.
[00:29:18] Christopher John Garcia: It's also a good painting of food.
[00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, there you go. Perfect. Oh yeah. Well, that's a, that's a very unique answer and I like it. Okay. So, secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:29:32]Christopher John Garcia: To make art. I mean, really, that's what it comes down to, I think. Wanting an artist to be a philosopher, a spokesman, any of that? Really not as important as the fact that they just create the work.
[00:29:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. And then finally, I'll define my terms a little bit in this last question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and shares a little bit of context behind that, whether it's program notes or the inspiration or a title. Just something to give the viewer an idea of what went into the creation. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does put their work out there, but doesn't provide the context and therefore leaves it entirely up to the viewer to interpret it at will.
[00:30:25]Christopher John Garcia: I'm going to throw you a curve ball and say there is no such thing as an inclusive artist.
[00:30:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Ooh. Tell me more.
[00:30:33]Christopher John Garcia: Everything an artist does is meant to be interpreted, is meant to be placed into a context. So that would be now exclusive. Nevermind. But yeah, they, every purpose choice you make is giving you more of a clue. If an artist says, "This is not titled," it doesn't mean he is just-- I don't care what you call it-- it's, he's making a choice. He doesn't want to give you the direction, but there is a direction and, you know, I've, I always think of-- I think it was Barnett Newman who once said I paint a zip. I put a line down a canvas. To me, that's a line. To someone else that could be a streetlight. And we're both right.
[00:31:25]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah.
[00:31:26] Christopher John Garcia: And I think that, you know, I think everything an artist does has the reason that it's done to bring about some thought, even if that thing that they do isn't giving you any background, but is giving you the lack of background. That seems strange, but in my brain it works.
[00:31:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I really, that is the most unique answer I've received for that question. So I like that. That is a really interesting point. So thank you for sharing that perspective because I really that's going to make me think about that even more. So thank you for that.
[00:32:05]Christopher John Garcia: I do what I can.
[00:32:06] Lindsey Dinneen: I know. I appreciate it. Well, thank you just so very much for being here today, Chris, I really appreciate your time and you sharing your background and what you're up to. And I'm so excited about your podcast. And I encourage all of our listeners to also check out Chris's podcast and subscribe and all that good stuff, because obviously he brings a cool, unique perspective and it's three minutes. So, like the perfect way to just start your day. So thank you again, Chris. And I just want to commend you for everything that you're doing and sharing art with the world. I really think that that's important and kudos to you.
[00:32:49]Christopher John Garcia: Well, thank you much. It's been so much fun.
[00:32:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Yeah. Well, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:33:04] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Episode 051 - Donna Kay Yarborough

In today's episode, I welcome Donna Kay Yarborough! Donna Kay is a performer who has worked extensively in improv, theater, and comedy sports, as well as writing, producing, and performing her own one-woman shows. She talks about her artistic journey and her excitement about getting back to live shows, as well as about her upcoming production, "Rosegold." (Fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is the show image for "Rosegold.") 
 
Get in touch with Donna Kay Yarborough: www.donnakayspeaks.com 
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 51 - Donna Yarborough
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello. And welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am excited to have as my guest today, Donna Kay Yarborough. She is a performer and I cannot wait to dive into all that that means because I know she works in a lot of different genres and a lot of different ways. And so thank you so much for being here today.
[00:00:55] Donna Kay Yarborough: Thank you for having me and my morning voice. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. So we are recording on an early Monday morning. And so here we are.
[00:01:06]Donna Kay Yarborough: Definitely.
[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I'd love to hear more about your background and maybe how you got started in art, and then maybe a little bit of what you're doing now, if you don't mind.
[00:01:18] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, it's one of those that my history is a long, long string of trying to put off the fact that I am an artist. I started, I mean, I was always the talker since I was a little kid. I would always get the narration rolls and stuff like that. And then in middle school and high school is when I first discovered theater and I've really discovered a proclivity to that. And my parents were always, "Well, this is a lovely phase you're going to, but when are you going to become a teacher? Because that's what you're good at." And I never left the theater phase and the more I fought it, the more I got dragged back into it. So I have just very many different angles that has brought me to the current place that I am right now that I guess is best described as an independent performance artist though. It's not performance art. It's, it's ,it's all manner of whatnot. There's a specific term:  whatnot. I do whatnot.
[00:02:22] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. And what does the whatnot look like these days?
[00:02:27]Donna Kay Yarborough:  Currently, I've been doing a lot of Fringe Theater Festivals. So the most current project, which I'll be coming to Kansas City with, is a solo horror show called "Rosegold." It's a 45 minutes storytelling experience. We'll put it that way. And so that's what all my years have led up to.
[00:02:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So as far as, so this is a one woman show, I'm imagining, and it's storytelling about various-- are these like real- life horror stories or are these like fictional stories or how does that whole thing work?
[00:03:06]Donna Kay Yarborough:  This, this one in particular is fiction, but I will say that it is honestly quite informed by real life. We'll put it that way.
[00:03:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Absolutely. And so what got you interested in, in that particular genre or what kind of sparked this show?
[00:03:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: I have always loved horror since I was a little kid, like when I was in third grade, my favorite authors were Edgar Allan Poe, Stephen King and Ray Bradbury. So it is not unfamiliar to me to be just absorbed in the horror genre, but throughout the ages, I've always been seen as a comedian, whether I wanted to be or not, I have always been identified as such. So this has been a pleasant surprise for this show to fall out of my head and to find that it is being effective in giving people the chilly willies or whatever you want to say. Chilly willy sounds like I'm sticking the finger in people's ears, but you know what I mean?
[00:04:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Okay. All right. So you said, you know, regardless of whether you particularly wanted to be, or not, you sort of ended up in more of a humorous role. Is that something that you kind of pursued or is that just something that fell into your lab?
[00:04:31] Donna Kay Yarborough: I would say six of one, half a dozen of the other. Because I've always been a smart ass and I didn't realize how integral part of my personality that was until I got older, but I went to school for theater and I did okay. But at that time I started doing improv. I got involved with comedy sports. I can't remember if Kansas City has a comedy sports team or not, or used to, but I, they used to, as a matter of fact, cause that was the only time I've been to Kansas City was for a comedy sports tournament. Yeah. And I got involved with that in 1995, and I've still been doing that all along. And then the improv led me into interactive theater, which I did pretty intensely for 10 years at a Renaissance Festival in upstate New York. And then, since then it's been sort of an adventure finding wherever I am. So it's been quite a few years that I've been doing music and comedy and independent theater.
[00:05:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. So I'm sure that there is more of a journey, cause you mentioned, you know, kind of early childhood starting to get interested in all of the different art aspects. And like you said, you did narration, you were always sort of that kind of role. So I'm curious, how did you get from there as sort of, you know, obviously more of a side hobby and pursuit or extracurricular to now you're doing this. Is this a full-time gig or how did it kind of evolve from this is my side hobby to, this is kind of what I'm pursuing?
[00:06:06] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think that it was more of, this has always been what I've been pursuing, but in the name of being reasonable, I have shoved it to the side for other things. Cause you know, in high school I was one of those kids. I was in band, choir and theater and at for whatever reason, theater is the one that I decided to follow. And again, as I've mentioned, I just got stuck in it. By the way, I keep resisting my temptation to say theater because I am from Texas and it took me a while to unlearn "I'm in theater." But that's what happened. I went to university for it and in Texas as well, and I kept trying to juggle the jobs and the theater. And then in my mid- twenties, I had the joys of having a very intense bout of cancer. I had a Hodgkin's disease that went undiagnosed for a while and I nearly died from a giant tumor in my lung. And it was at that point that I think I'm more consciously made a decision that I'm not here to mess around, going to focus on whatever this is, this gift that I have now. So ever since then, granted, it's been you know, over 20 years since the cancer and the stem cell transplant, but I've become more and more adept and allowed, I will say, of focusing on aspects of my performance in art full time.
[00:07:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. That's-- I mean, goodness, kudos to you for overcoming that. And also of course, just, you know, using that as an opportunity to recognize that life isn't a dress rehearsal, I guess, as cliche as that is, and, and, you know, to embrace the here and the now. And that's really cool.
[00:08:05] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah. Yeah, no, I've been very fortunate compared to others because not everybody has a positive outcome from the cancer like I did, but I also, in my show-- previous to the horror show I'm doing now-- I created a show about my work as a standardized patient, which is basically a medical actor. I'm the person that people learn how to interact with patients . So it's, that's part of my creative work as well. And I love it, but because of my background with the healthcare system, I worked into that humorous show, a very strong call for universal healthcare in this country. And, when I went to Canada with the show, they were like, "Well, we know healthcare is bad in the United States," but a lot of them didn't understand to what degree it is leaving people in a wake of destruction in this country. So I was able to use that personal experience to inform that piece and make it a conversation starter and informational for people.
[00:09:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's really cool. So does your work that you write and whatever, does that normally have sort of a, an underlying call to action or does it depend on the work itself?
[00:09:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: I have discovered that I do tend to put in a call to action. It's just how I'm built. I figure if I'm going to make this piece of entertainment, I should bring a bit of awareness and discussion into it. So with previous acts I've done, I used to be part of a comedy duo and my former show partner, Sadie Bowman, who's doing fantastic work touring with doing Matheatre, the name of their group, they're doing informative theater for schools, STEM based. She and I would create work that even though it was comedy, it definitely had sort of a feminist awareness angle to it. And since then, I've just always thought that if I'm going to create this thing, let's, let's make it deeper than just being frivolous. Entertainment's fine. I have no problem with something being created just for the sake of entertaining. But if you can lace it with a little bit of delicious awareness, you might as well use that opportunity.
[00:10:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So what does your creative writing process look like? Like do you have the inspiration first and then just dive right into the writing process? Or how does that work for you?
[00:10:42]Donna Kay Yarborough:  It is one that has changed over the years and what it used to be-- and granted, now this part of me, aside from the cancer, a lot of this that has influenced me lately has been sort of coming to terms with my depression and my family inheritance of mental illness --that in the early days, I used to be able to just sit down and go, "I want to write this." And it would all just fall right out of my face, just "waha" there onto the page without even thinking twice. And then in the past decade or so, that had become more and more difficult where I would set a goal and trying to get it out of me was just-- I was wrestling with demons that everything was trying to hold me in place and keep me from moving forward. So I was very dependent on other people to help me with the material, or I would just throw it to the realm of improv. I deliberately make it improv because one of the joys of being a trained improviser is yes, you are comfortable making up stuff on the fly, but the downside is, you have a tendency to go, "Oh, I'll just make that up. I'll just figure out something when that happens." So for the past few years, it's been very much like that. And then in the past year, trying to understand my brain again, the new version of my brain, I think I've returned back to the, I can sit down and address something and it'll come to me.
[00:12:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And so what are you most excited about with this new production that you're working on? Are you going to be producing it for a bunch of different Fringe Festivals or what's, what's your goal with it?
[00:12:36] Donna Kay Yarborough: That is my hope. I'm in several this year, virtually, which as terrible as the virtual landscape and the pandemic has been for artists overall, I do love that as far as Fringe Festivals are concerned, the virtual Fringe Festival. The festival has made it much more affordable for people like me who don't necessarily have a trust fund and a stock pile of cash. So I've been able to do this virtually-- which the show when it started was meant to be in person-- and then with the pandemic, I had an opportunity to do it in September and it perfectly morphed for the virtual presentation for Zoom presentation, but I will be later this year in a festival that is yet to be disclosed. I can't officially say which one yet, but I will be doing it in person. And I am very excited about that form of it as well.
[00:13:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is so exciting. I cannot wait to get back to in person performing because there's just nothing quite like it.
[00:13:47] Donna Kay Yarborough: It's true. I like the virtual, but the energy-- it's like learning in a classroom, the collective energy of people being there together in a point of focus in unity is definitely one of the most important aspects of live performance, in my opinion.
[00:14:05]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. That sharing of energy, even within the audience itself, just sitting next to other people who are as excited as you are to be there is, is cool too. So, for sure.
[00:14:17] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, it definitely, it definitely reminds us that we are a community.
[00:14:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. The camaraderie sort of, of the arts is, is really special, so... Very cool. Okay! So then obviously you've got, you know, your work cut out for you this year. Do you have other exciting things in the works as well for the future?
[00:14:39] Donna Kay Yarborough: For the future, well as things open up, I'm looking forward to getting back into improv. So that's something that's been sitting on the back burner and I have missed horribly. I do enjoy, and the, the form that I do with comedy sports-- another shout out for comedy sports-- is that it is a format that is engendered to be friendly for all ages.  I absolutely adore having an opportunity to do all ages shows that are very, very inclusive. So I'm looking forward to getting back to that. That'll be nice. And I'm also just looking forward to, to figuring out if maybe this is my new thing is to create more horror.
[00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. And then, so I'm curious if, you know, if there's somebody out there who's kind of interested in doing what you do. What kinds of advice would you have for somebody who might just be thinking of doing something like that or taking that leap of faith to get started? What would you say to somebody like that?
[00:15:42] Donna Kay Yarborough: I would say, first of all, is run with your idea. If you have an idea, whether it be, "I would like to do something like this,: or "I have an idea of this that might do this," let that fall out of your head in whatever form it's going to be in. And then specifically for these independent shows, I did not come into awareness of the Fringe Festival world until I was into my forties. So I'm still, I've been doing this for a few years, but compared to other people, I'm still rather new at that scene. And I will say my first Fringe Festival that I went to I found very inspiring because I had grown weary of the concept of live theater. It seemed to be very much, or even over the past few years, completely respecting the level of skill that is needed for live theater in smaller arenas. It felt like it had gotten pretty hackneyed and they had to focus on what is going to be the money builder, as opposed to what is exciting and engaging. And going to a Fringe Theater Festival made me realize that there were so many more options for what is considered live performance and live theater. So I would encourage anybody that is anywhere close to a Fringe Festival to go to that and just see how many options there are out there and what each different flavor of performance does for people. I found that very, very inspiring.
[00:17:19]And then I would say, find the middle ground in that. Figure out if you can start with something formed like that, use that inspiration of structure to create something on your own. The truth is that as a creative, you're going to make a lot of little babies that may never get to go out into the world and see the light of day. So you just got to keep making those creative babies. You've got all these little babies, and some of these babies are going to be dear to you, and they may not ever get to walk out of the nest, but you've got to allow your heart to keep making these little nuggets of hope.
[00:17:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. Yes. And I second your opinion on the Fringe Festivals. Yes, if you are an aspiring artist or even somebody who wants something just a little bit different, Fringe Festivals are such a great way to get started or to reach a new audience or anything like that, because they are an affordable way to to get going or again, to reach a different audience. So, yeah, I absolutely second that advice.
[00:18:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, and I like that many of them are developed specifically to give opportunities. Now you might go to a festival and not everything you see is going to be quote unquote "good." There's going to be some stuff where you leave just going, "Ooh, bless their heart." But that's part of the beauty of it, is that it allows for people that have never done it before to test it out and see if they come up with something that may lightning struck and is magic. But then it gives people that are established an opportunity to do something in their own terms and genuinely, maybe make some money from it because improv festivals, standup comedy festivals-- yeah. You don't ever make any money. That is not how you will ever, ever get into building a foundation for you. But many of the folks I know that do Fringe Festivals, a lot of them do it full time. They tour year round, and it is not an easy existence, but it is how they define their existence.
[00:19:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think to that point, we've sort of danced around it a little bit, but the, the great thing about Fringe Festivals is that they are uncensored. So, so it's up to the artists to bring what they will, which is lovely because it gives you a lot of artistic freedom to explore. Whereas some other festivals are looking for very specific types of art or specific topics or, or what have you. So yeah, it's, it's a special opportunity. I'll put it that way.
[00:20:04] Donna Kay Yarborough: I agree. I wish I had discovered it many years earlier. I will say that since I've found the Renaissance Festival circuit before this, there is a lot of camaraderie and spirit that overlaps with the two. Some of the folks that I know from the Fringe Festival circuit, I actually met doing Renaissance Festivals, because it's a very similar feeling of, people get together in different locations. You have locals creating their version of art. You have non-locals that tour across the country, doing these bite-sized shows. And it's, it's a very similar love of performance with just a different patina on top of it.
[00:20:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Yes. And so for people who want to either follow your work and, or specifically are interested in your upcoming show, is there a way for us to connect with you? To make sure we stay on top of that?
[00:21:07] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yes. I have a website that is Donna Kay Speaks. So D O N N A K A Y S P E A K S. That's donnakayspeaks.com. And on that, I have links to my social media and I try to keep up on a blog what's going through my head and where I'm going to be next. And I will also be very blatantly placing where this current show of mine, "Rosegold," is going to be. Which again, I am very excited about to share the world with.
[00:21:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And what's so great too about the fact that these Fringe Festivals are virtual, is that you can literally be anywhere in the country and still follow, you know, what, what you're doing and make sure that you see these, these cool productions online. So that is the, I have to say that that is kind of the magic of this format, I think.
[00:22:07] Donna Kay Yarborough: It's true. I made my debut in the UK with having never been there. That's what I did a festival in January that was an open call out of Edinburgh. And that's kind of exciting. Maybe someday I'll physically get there as well.
[00:22:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. So cool. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing all about your art and sort of how you got into all these different avenues and also your advice. I really appreciate it. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.
[00:22:42] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yes.
[00:22:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:22:50]Donna Kay Yarborough:  I think the best definition I have for it is connection. Like I mentioned earlier, that moment of unity is what makes live performance so much fun. I think any sort of art you've thrived for that point that the person who creates, meets with the person who observes and they share an awareness of some sort of information or perspective. You'll see a lot of people that say, "I do my art for my sake and I don't care what other people think." And quite honestly, I feel like that's a very selfish approach to art. You can be true to yourself and still honor the audience at the same time, because it's a symbiotic relationship. You are not an artist in a vacuum. We all exist because we are in the presence of each other.
[00:23:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. I absolutely love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:23:58]Donna Kay Yarborough: There are many different roles that people have depending on their abilities and what their focus is. So like I mentioned earlier, some people just want to bring joy into the world. And I think that is lovely. Joy is defined on many different levels and that can be a pure focus in me. I I flavor joy on top of a baseline of perspective. I am ever the educator, even though I am not officially teaching in a classroom, my goal is to always teach in some manner or another. So making this tasty nugget of learning I think is how I function. And a lot of people out there function, there's other things you can do. Sometimes you just want to make a pretty thing, or sometimes you just want to decorate. And that again is very, very valuable in this world, but  mine is teaching.
[00:25:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's the inspiration that went into the process of creating it, or program notes or a title or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.
[00:25:35] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think it's entirely dependent on the project, because if you are creating a piece that you want folks to know everything that led up to this point, because that is part of the awareness in presentation, by all means, bring people into your process. People are necessary for your process. So let them have as much access to yourself as you were comfortable to them. Having that being said, some shows you don't want spoilers. You want it to hit them all at once and then after they experience it, they can begin to deconstruct and learn about all that went into it. Or the goal of it is to just put it forward and let whatever it means for the viewer, that is what it means. There is no boxing. There is no qualifying. It just exists for the people to have as it is. So I think honestly, there's no hard answer for that. It could be any and all.
[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate your time. And of course, I'm so excited for your upcoming performances and congrats on getting to do some live, you know, later this year as well. So it's just exciting to be able to watch your journey. So thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for being here today. I really do appreciate it.
[00:27:12] Donna Kay Yarborough: Thank you very much for having me. And I'm looking so forward to being in Kansas City virtually.
[00:27:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:27:32] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much! And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Episode 050 - Gloria Grace Rand

In today's episode, I welcome Gloria Grace Rand! Gloria is a speaker, author, podcast host, and lover of music and art. She shares the stories about the inspiration from her sister that helped her write her book about love, along with her journey from SEO copywriter to podcaster and beyond. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Gloria's book, "Live. Love. Engage.")
 
Get in touch with Gloria Grace Rand: www.gloriarand.com | www.liveloveengagebook.com
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 50 - Gloria Grace Rand
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Gloria Grace Rand. She is an author, speaker, and podcast host, and has a really rich background. And I'm just so excited to hear more about what she's doing now and how she got her start and all of those good things. So thank you so much for being here today, Gloria. I really appreciate it.
[00:00:58] Gloria Grace Rand: Oh, thank you so much, Lindsey. I am so excited to delve into this today. I'm really, I'm really looking forward to our discussion.
[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Well, it's so much fun to talk about art if you're an art lover. So, I would love if you would just mind sharing a little bit about your background and maybe sort of how you got into the various art forms that you do and yeah, maybe what you're up to now, too.
[00:01:21]Gloria Grace Rand: I would love to, and yeah, the arts have always been a part of my life. I mean, starting from, let's see, five years old when I started taking dance lessons. So I did tap, ballet, and jazz for, for years. And, in fact, the ballet part even as an adult. So, because I loved it so much-- even though that's not what I did professionally-- I wish I could have, but I was never quite, did not exactly have that dancer's body-- but it's so much fun to do. And the other part that has been a big part of my life has been music. I was in the band in school. Actually, the first instrument I ever learned how to play was the organ. We had a Hammond organ in our house growing up and my dad played it and I learned how to play, and then learned how to play the guitar. And then in school it was, I started out playing flute in junior high, and then switched to saxophone in high school because we had too many flute players. So I, I enjoyed that tremendously.
[00:02:17] And, and the other part of myself, I guess, that has been a big part has been writing. As you mentioned, I am an author. I recently published my first book. But writing has always been a part of what I've been doing. I mean, I was a pen pal when I was a kid, and then I wound up actually majoring in mass communications in college, and got involved in television. I was involved in television production. I worked for a long time for the Nightly Business Report when it was on public television and I started off my first job with them was what was called a Character Generator Operator. And so I was typing up the words that would be go onto the screen and as well as helping making some of the graphics that we would use for the program. And then I eventually became a writer for the show and, and a producer.
[00:03:09] And so I did that for a long time, loved working in television, and then we were living in Miami at the time. I moved up to Orlando and I had to find something else to do. And I wound up investing in a course to do SEO copywriting. So I was writing, learn how to write content for websites and, and to help them get found, right? Figure out the right keywords that'll help you get found in Google, and then incorporate them in a way that actually makes sense at a website to be able to get people to take action and buy someone's products and services. And I've been doing that for the last 10 plus years and have really enjoyed that as well. And at the same time, over the last few years, I've been on a spiritual journey that happened when my sister was diagnosed with cancer and it culminated in the writing of this book. I've been doing a podcast and it's just like, all of it has just been this really cool journey and has just involved me finding ways to be out there, you know, just being, expressing myself. I actually just created a new tagline for my business. I call it "Messages from the Heart" because that's pretty much what I'm doing through a lot of different modalities. And that's a lot of fun. And we'll probably talk about some more of that in a little bit, but that's, that's the not- really- short version, but, but a little version about where I am right now.
[00:04:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Of course I'd love to delve more into all of the different things, but so I'm curious, are you still participating in music now?  Are you still actively playing any of those instruments or anything like that?
[00:04:52]Gloria Grace Rand: It's funny you should mention that. And I should mention the other part is singing has also been a big part of my life as well, but last year during, during the pandemic-- and I'm not even really sure what, what was it that prompted it-- but I pulled my guitar out of my closet, which I haven't touched in about 10 years and and realized it was like, I missed music. I hadn't been doing anything with it. And so I got the guitar out and I started playing it again. And that was a lot of fun. And I also started-- which I haven't done since let's see probably seven years old-- it was the last time I actually wrote a couple of songs, which just sort of blew my mind that that this was coming to me and as this new way of being creative. And it was exciting, and I also started playing the organ again. I'd kind of played it off and on, but not consistently, but I realized that it's like, I should do this because it brings me joy.
[00:05:52] And I think that that was mostly it. In fact that that is why I started playing the guitar again. 'Cause I had, I was working with a coach and she's like, "Well, what, what brings you joy?" And I'm like, "Well, music." And that's like, yeah, wait a minute. I've got a guitar. I need to start playing music again. 'Cause you know, last year was such a weird year and it's still a bit continuing that way. And, it's so important to do the things that you love to do. And so, yeah, I started doing that and it was great. And, and like I mentioned, singing has been something that I've always enjoyed doing as well. I used to be in church choirs for, for a long time and really enjoyed doing that. And so I've, so again, this like writing songs is kind of getting back into me being able to sing again, which has been really a lot of fun. My favorite part about Girl Scout camp was singing around the campfire just to give you an indication of me and music.
[00:06:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, of course. That's fantastic. So I'm curious, do you own an organ or do you have to go somewhere to play one?
[00:06:56]Gloria Grace Rand: No, I actually do have-- it, it's really old now.  It was a secondhand one that I bought from a coworker back when I was working at the Nightly Business Report. So this, this, this instrument is, oh my gosh, it must be 30 years old now for sure.  The pedals don't work that great, but it still works.  I bought a keyboard once before I got this organ and, you know, a nice electronic keyboard, but it just wasn't the same, especially because those keyboards are typically-- you play, it's more like a piano. And I grew up with two keyboards, you know, so it's like the upper register of the lower register and pedals. And I just prefer playing that way. So when a coworker was moving and she was offering this organ for sale, I'm like, "I'll take it, I'll buy it." And just to be able to have that experience again,  sitting down on a badge and just playing that way. ' Cause I grew up playing chords with my left hand, as opposed to that. I can play the intricate left-hand like you would do on a piano, but I don't know, chords are easier for me. I like it better.
[00:08:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, I'm so impressed with musicians. Of course, that is already just so much work and dedication that you put into it, but I feel like organ is just another level of coordination that I just-- I don't know how you do all the different things and, and it sounds so good. Like how, how, how do you learn to layer the use of your foot, and then you have both registers and all that stuff. Like, that's just amazing to me.
[00:08:32] Gloria Grace Rand: I, I don't know, but I guess it helped that I started young. I think I was seven years old and I started taking lessons to do it. And it just always seemed natural to me. Whereas like playing the piano, I can't understand how people play the piano because that's just, I'm in awe of people who can play the piano because especially with using the left hand and just making this intricate music, I'm like, well, you're just like, so, so I can relate in that way to how you feel because I, the organ to me is easier and fun. Whereas the piano seems much more challenging.
[00:09:07]Lindsey Dinneen: What is the hardest instrument that you've learned how to play, do you think?
[00:09:11]Gloria Grace Rand: Actually, the flute. The flute was my nemesis because our band director used to say "needs work on her embouchure. And to be able to get your, your mouth just right to be able to get that clear tone. I was okay. But I found the saxophone much easier to play. It was something about the reed instead was easier and I was much better playing the saxophone than I was with the flute. So yeah. Although I will say, the guitar I'm still not great at doing, like, super sophisticated chords, because if it is hard to press in and to get your fingers, especially like, I don't have the biggest hands I think. And maybe that's part of it. So it's hard to be able to necessarily like press all of those strings down, especially like your pinky finger to be able to get that coordinated and, and with enough strength to press down. But, you know, I can do C, G D7, D chords, those basic chords. I can play a lot of good John Denver songs. So let's put it that way.
[00:10:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. I love it. That's hilarious. Well, that's really cool. I'm glad that you were able to pick it back up and that it does still bring you joy. I think that's, that's so special. It is so important to find those things and to engage in them because it is a crazy world and we all need those outlets. And so, yeah, I'm so glad to hear that you're still doing it. That's, that's wonderful. Well, and obviously you've also had quite the illustrious career as a writer and you know, now starting off by writing for other people and now obviously, you know, writing your own book and such, but, so I'm curious how that journey kind of evolved for you. I mean, was it, was it something that you just sort of naturally kind of fell into? Was it challenging at the beginning learning like each different type of writing? 'Cause you've done several different styles, it sounds like.
[00:11:06] Gloria Grace Rand: So yeah, absolutely. It has been interesting and when I, like I said, when I was a kid, I loved writing in school. You know, English was like one of my favorite subjects. And I, and I enjoy writing even, I don't know, maybe writing stories or things. But when I switched my major, 'cause I was originally majoring in business and doing very badly. So eventually I switched to mass communications and getting into learning how to write business news was, I think what was advantageous for me was that I worked my way up in, in the organization so that, like I said, I started off more of  the graphic side of it. And then eventually my next job, I became the Associate Producer for Stocks. So I was working with one of the anchors of the program. His name is Paul Kangas and he would, he would talk about the stock market. That was his forte talking about, you know, what happened on the New York Stock Exchange and the American Stock Exchange.
[00:12:04] And so I, I would gather, figure out what were the best, biggest, bigger losers and gainers of that day. And, and just being around the other people, I would start picking up, even though I'd had, you know, I studied some journalism in, in school. It really helped being sort of on the job and getting that on -the -job training of learning from the other writers that were there, and the other producers and it, it's all about being able to be very concise and get your message across quickly because a lot of the stories would be like 30 second stories or that you would have to write. And, and it was great 'cause they, they allowed me to, to start off with writing small parts of the show there. We would do like a local segment for Florida stocks. And so I started writing some of those stories and, and then eventually got to write for the program itself. So it was great being able to have training and, and have people encouraging me along the way in order to do that.
[00:13:08] And then it was interesting. Before I started my copywriting career, I was actually doing a lot of part-time volunteer work for my kids' schools. I started writing press releases for them, and I was working on their newsletter, the school newsletter and writing articles for that. And when I started doing the copywriting was like, oh, the stuff I was doing for the school was actually the same type of writing I could actually get paid for that. It didn't even, didn't even dawn on me at the time, but that was a career. I was just trying to help out, you know, and I, I'd worked for a TV station, so it was like, sure, I can, I can do this stuff too. I can figure out how to write a press release and send it to our local newspaper and things like that. So it's just been this, this way of evolving that then when I started learning how to do copywriting, it wasn't that far removed from what I was already doing, because the same principles hold. You've got to grab somebody's attention really quickly, get to, get to the point on a website, just like you would do writing for someone who's listening you know, watching a television show.
[00:14:17]So it's been interesting how everything is sort of built on it. I guess, you know, each thing that I did, I sort of picked up a new skill and was able to keep evolving from it. And, and just being able to, in doing my business, I started a blog. So I started writing a lot of articles for that. And I think that also then helped in being able to really start writing a longer form and to actually write a book. Although that, that book process took me a lot longer than I thought. And I, as I said, I'm very spiritually minded and I got a lot of help in writing this book because I do not take all the credit for it because it was all, I was like asking for inspiration a lot and to be able to get it, in fact, even the idea for the book itself came during a meditation one morning. And this voice in my head said, "You should write a book about love." And I'm like, "I do marketing. What, where is this coming from? This makes no sense to me." But as is often the case, the reason I had to write a book about love was because I had to learn I love myself, and that's what I was able to do in the process of writing that book. So it was, wow. Yeah, it was not the easiest process, but one that was definitely very worthwhile and I'm glad, glad I got through it. It's very nice to be able to actually have the book in my hands. Now it was such a dream for so long and to be able to like, wow, it's really there.
[00:15:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, I can only imagine how thrilling it is when you're just, you're like, finally I have this like actual physical copy of this labor of love that I've been working on forever. That's, that's a good moment. Well, you mentioned, you know, having the inspiration sort of coming from, or at least part of the inspiration coming from, you know, your sister's battle with cancer. Do you mind sharing more about sort of how that impacted your work?
[00:16:18] Gloria Grace Rand: Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was a big part of it. Yeah. And in fact, the idea for the book came yeah, two months before she transitioned. It was the end of 2016. And like I said, I know now it was, it was the reason was because I needed to, to learn that.  She was my older sister. She was 10 years older than me and lived out in Arizona. I live in Florida, so I was going out there as often as I could to be with her during that battle that she was engaged in and, you know, initially I grieved a lot when she was gone, cause she was, she was like my cheerleader, you know, she was the person who was always encouraging me in my business and always telling me, you know, you're doing a good job and, and I really miss that when she was gone.
[00:17:05] But now with, you know, some time and, and going through writing the book, I can really look back on number one, looking back on the time that we got to spend together was great despite everything because we really got to connect in a way that we hadn't that much. Because of this ten-year difference we had, we had really two different childhoods. So we would spend, you know, a lot of times comparing notes on how we and, and just, we were able to put together some good memories. I actually write about one of the things in the book one time was, this was the year before she passed, I was out there before Christmas and we decided to make Christmas cookies and we made the, the kind that she always loved, which I, which I love too. So it's basically a sugar cookie. And so I'm, I'm, you know, made the batter and I'm rolling out the dough and I'm flattening the cookies and she's like, you know, you're not flattening them enough. They need to be flattered. And I'm like, okay, fine. You know, press them down a little bit more and then put them in the oven.
[00:18:07] And it wasn't, it was just so annoying that she was right. Like they really did turn out better. You know, so, but it's like, we were able to do things like that. And, and that's like a memory that I hold with me, you know, now forever, because it was, it was a lot of fun and, and, you know, and of course she was, you know, being her big sister ways and just saying how, you know, she was right. And I was wrong and okay. And it's also again, in writing the book, I incorporated some of the things that she went through as well as I did. We had not the greatest of childhoods. My dad was an alcoholic and my mom had a bit of a temper. And so it wasn't, it wasn't easy for either one of us. And, and it affected both of us really in, in, in our business.
[00:18:55] In fact, cause we sort of had doubts about ourselves and, and our self-esteem and, and even when I was writing the book, I was, I was working on one section that the V in love actually stands for value your uniqueness. And I realized as I'm trying to get this book done, trying to get it to the publisher because I wanted to have it published by February. Cause that was when my sister's birthday was and I thought February 21st would be perfect. So I'm trying to get this book done and I'm like, geez, I didn't write much on this section probably because I need to work on this a little bit more.  I'm not valuing my own uniqueness a bit, but, anyway, for whatever reason, I was drawn to start looking through some of her, her notebooks and I was trying to check a date or something.
[00:19:43] And I came across a section that she had written about where she was talking about, you know, struggling that of  self-worth and why she wasn't even able to fight the cancer. Because, you know, thinking that like, she wasn't worthy to be able to survive this. And you know, and it was like, you know, my heart felt for her. And at the same time, it was also a good reminder that it was like, I needed to know to see how she was experiencing this and, and to be able to even share that in the book for others who, you know, may be suffering from self doubt and, and, and not valuing their own worthiness. And so she's still around helping me. I guess the point I want to make here is that even though she's not, not here physically I still feel her presence and her directing me and helping me out and being the big sister, you know, and really, really still, still helping me from beyond which is, which is quite remarkable.
[00:20:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's so special to have gotten to share those memories. Of course, I mean, and, and then be able to, to use them to help not only inspire yourself and, and value yourself and learn all that, but to then share that with others. That's a really powerful story. So thank you for sharing about that. And then I know you now have a podcast as well. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that and maybe what you chat about on it?
[00:21:14] Gloria Grace Rand: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. Yeah. It's called Live Love Engage, which is actually the same name as my book. And I, I started about a little over a year ago as a way to help me, frankly, write the book. I was thinking that I would be able to do some episodes where I could kind of talk about some of the things I was writing about to really help me to crystallize it. And yeah. I had done a podcast about five years earlier. And that time it was all about online marketing. And so I didn't want to really lose that, but I wanted to put something more into it. So the way I describe it as it's, it's practical advice from a spiritual perspective to help entrepreneurs to create more impact, influence, and income, and what the Live Love Engage is about is being able to live fully, love deeply and engage authentically. And, so this time around, instead of doing it five days a week, which is what I was doing before, which was insane. ,And I burnt myself out. This time, I'm doing interviews in addition to doing my own solo episodes. And so I do at least one interview a week sometimes, especially during the height of the pandemic last year, I was even doing a couple a week.
[00:22:27]Yeah, right. Yeah. I was doing like about two, two interviews a week and it's been so wonderful to be able to talk with so many different people and to be able to get their perspective. I've talked with a lot of, you know, authors and coaches and, and other, other marketing folk too. Cause I also do, you know, again, offer practical advice on how to grow your business, but a lot of times, I'm also talking with people who deal with a mindset issues. Cause the one thing I've learned in being in business for myself, as opposed to when I was an employee, is that, and even dealing with some of my other clients is that you can have all the best tools. You can have a social media presence, you know, all over the place. But if you have a mindset that you're really not worthy to be successful, or that, you know, you've got some types of limiting beliefs around money, that maybe you're not meant to have a lot of money, then you're not going to be successful in business. Even though you might have the best website and you've got a team, even as having a team of people maybe working for you, you're still going to be butting up against a wall because it's really what you think and believe about yourself that is going to have a big impact in how you actually can succeed in business as well as in life for that matter, too.
[00:23:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. And so I'm, I'm curious for our listeners who would like to maybe purchase your book, find out more about your podcast or kind of follow your work, is there a way for them to do that?
[00:24:02]Gloria Grace Rand: Absolutely. You can go to my website, gloriarand.com. And you will be able to see I've got the actual, you can see that link to my podcast is there. Of course, it's on iTunes and all those lovely podcast platforms and they're everywhere, but I do have it on my website. There's a tab that'll take you to the podcast as well as a link to take you to my book. Although you can also go to LiveLoveEngagebook.com. And you can order it there and it's, although it is available on Amazon, as well as on barnesandnoble.com as well. But yeah, and then I'm on, I'm on social media. So as I said, I'm on Facebook and Instagram and all those, all those fun places. If you could look for Gloria Grace Rand and you'll be able to connect with me there as well.
[00:24:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, I always ask my guests the same three questions and I'd love to do that with you if that's okay. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:25:06] Gloria Grace Rand: Oh, let's see. Art, art to me is expression. And it, because it can have so many different forms and, and I think it is, it's a way of expressing who you are, what your thoughts and beliefs are and it's a way of being able to just communicate you through whatever different modality you find, whether that's writing, whether it's music, whether it's actual painting and drawing. Cause there's so many different ways to be able to express. So yeah, I think, I mean, that's what it is. It's a way of being able to express, express yourself out there in the world.
[00:25:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:25:56]Gloria Grace Rand: Well, the most important role-- I think it's just being true to who you are and to trust yourself to be able to communicate whatever it is that you want to communicate. Because if you're going about doing something in the arts to please someone else, it's not really ultimately going to be successful. I think you've gotta be able to do whatever it is from your heart to really be able to please yourself. And it may not please everybody. And that's okay. But as long as you are conveying what you want to convey from your heart, then it is going to touch someone else's heart.
[00:26:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts the work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes or titles or the inspiration that went in behind it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left entirely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will.
[00:27:12] Gloria Grace Rand: I think, I think it's a both/ and because I think it just depends on, how you want to put it out there in the world? Because I, I know that there are some people who will do art-- especially I think, and maybe this is more even with painters in particular who, who do want to just let people interpret it.  But there's certainly nothing wrong with it being inclusive either and being able to give people maybe some guidance what it should be. That's an interesting question.  I can see justifications for both. So yeah, I think it's up to the artist to decide ultimately, because they're the ones who are creating the art, and if they want to provide guidance, that's their prerogative. And if they want to just leave it up to whoever to be able to make their own judgment, that's, that's their prerogative as well.
[00:28:07]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Well, first of all, thank you so very much for being here today, Gloria. I really appreciate your time and your stories and sharing with us your inspiration and all the cool ways that you have interacted with art over the years. And I'm really excited to continue to follow your journey. And congratulations on the book. That's so exciting, and also the podcast of course as well, but I know, I know it's just such a big deal when you can see that copy of the book in your hands. So congratulations on all of that and again, thank you for your time today and, and your inspiration that you're sharing with everyone. I really appreciate it.
[00:28:50] Gloria Grace Rand: Well, thank you. Thank you so much. And, and I, I love what you're doing for this podcast, because I think it is great to be able to let people know a little bit more about art. So, so I applaud you for what you're doing. So thank you.
[00:29:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:29:17] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:29:26]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 049 - Doug Motel

In today's episode, I welcome Doug Motel! Doug expresses himself through a wide variety of mediums, including theater and fine art and song-writing, and his episode contains multiple value bombs of advice for aspiring artists, along with the importance of making every moment count in life. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is a photo of Doug himself!)
 
Get in touch with Doug Motel: https://dougmotel.com | www.mindsalad.com 
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 49 - Doug Motel
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am thrilled to have as my guest today, Doug Motel. He is an artist that expresses himself through a wide variety of mediums, including theater and fine art and song writing. And I cannot wait to hear all about it. So thank you so much for being here today, Doug.
[00:00:54] Doug Motel: Lindsey, thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.
[00:00:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love to hear how you kind of got started. Maybe just what inspired you and then what you're up to these days?
[00:01:06] Doug Motel: Yeah. Well, how I got started-- that really goes really far back. I became really, I would say fascinated, but really the more appropriate word is "obsessed" with portraiture. When I was a little kid, when I was about nine, I used to just draw people's faces all day long, sometimes 20 to 30 portraits a day. And so, you know, when I was 10, 11 you know, I was drawing all the time and I think that, you know, it was a bit of a retreat into a more private space because I didn't, I grew up in an environment that really didn't feel safe to me in my, my family. And I felt like art and drawing was a great refuge. So there was a bit of a, a shift for me when I think I was, I think I was 11. I had done this portrait. It was a political cartoon. And I really, I was really proud of it. And, but I couldn't, I couldn't find it one morning. I woke up and I couldn't find it. It was not in my big stack of drawings. And I asked my mom, you know, "Did you see this cartoon that I had drawn on? I couldn't, I couldn't find it."
[00:02:11] And, and my mother said, "Yeah, your, you know, daddy took it to the poker game last night." And I just said, "Why, why, why would he do that?" And she said, "Because he wanted to show the other, you know, dads the drawing." And up until that point, I really felt honestly invisible to my father. I didn't think that he even, you know, had any idea that I loved art or that I, you know, did art and the fact that he had taken that time, the interest to like secretly, without ever saying anything to me, like he never said anything to me. Like that's a really great drawing. He just, behind my back while I was sleeping, took it so that he could show it cause he was proud of it.
[00:02:58] And I think that there was like a little thing that went off in my brain and I thought, "Oh, this whole thing about being able to draw is like some kind of currency. You know, it gives me some sort of value." And you know, I have to say sadly as a little boy, I, I didn't feel like I had any value. So that was a moment where I thought, "Oh, okay, I get it. Here's this thing that I do." And so, then I began to really, really nurture it and I had a lot of those, "How to Paint a Landscapes" books and how to paint, you know, in watercolor. And I really dove into watercolor, you know, as a 12 year old. And I started showing my work when I was, yeah, when I was 12. I lied my age so that I could be in an art show that was for adults.
[00:03:43] And I actually won a ribbon for a still life that I did. And I just felt like it was the thing that was like the one thing that I could. Do that would give me some sort of value. And that was until I discovered theater also when I was 12, I auditioned for a community theater production. And I got in and that was like, that was kind of like the world going from black and white into Technicolor. The idea of being in a community with other artists and, you know, being in front of an audience too, and getting people clapping for me instead of it feeling so threatening or unsafe as it did at home. That was a big turning point for me. And, and so I would say since then, I I've sort of-- like if you imagine a console where you're like at a sound board and you've got one dimmer switch. You've got two dimmer switches for me. One, the one switch, which would be the fine arts and painting and drawing. And the other dimmer switch would be storytelling. In a theater setting, I would say like my, my life has been kind of a, you know, between moving those two dimmers up and down, back and forth a bit. Was that was that too much?
[00:04:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. No, no, no. I love hearing the background. Thank you. Yeah. So, and I like that illustration , they each have their turns, essentially, and which one comes up a little bit brighter today versus the next day.
[00:05:06] Doug Motel: Yeah. Like I'll go through these periods where I'll really feel like I've got something that I want to say. You know, there was a time when I was living in Los Angeles and a dear friend of mine had been murdered by just a random person in her apartment building. And I just felt the, you know, the, the sense of grief, not just my own personal grief, but all the people that, that knew her.  She was a very special person. And I felt like I needed to, to process through it some way artistically and I, I thought about doing it in fine art, but ultimately I decided to write, write a play. And I wrote a play that had about 12 characters in it, and I played all the characters and it was really an homage to her spirit and very much about people going on a spiritual Odyssey when something tragic happens.
[00:05:59] Kind of like, you know, when something tragic happens, kind of like what we're going through right now, you're always at a fork in the road. You could either use it as a, as a way to affirm how horrible the world can be, or you use it as an opening for some sort of a healing. And so I wanted to  turn that into a story and I was just lucky because it, it wound up becoming you know, it really found an audience and I wound up, you know, being lucky enough to win a lot of awards in Los Angeles Theater for that. And, and it was supposed to move to a New York theater. That's why I moved back here onto the East coast. And, and in fact, if your listeners want to go on Amazon Prime and search "Shiva Arms," "S H I V A" and then "arms," that's the name of the play. And you can see a, a a filming of me performing it in the theater. So that's an example of, you know, I just didn't know. I knew I wanted to do something artistic to express what I, I felt, I discovered about what, what happens when you're faced with this kind of unexpected really horror, horrible.
[00:07:06] It felt like a horror, like being in a horror movie and how do we respond? And for me, the the, the, the thing to do at that time was to to make theater out of it. Now, the pandemic has really been a place for me to go back to paint. And I've been doing a lot, a lot of painting and I've been painting abstract watercolors with very carefully chosen colors that I believe suggest healing and calm. And in fact, I'm calling the whole series I'm doing right now, "Remedy Paintings" to remedy from the trauma that many of us are going through from this whole pandemic.
[00:07:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah, that's incredible, and so helpful and so needed right now, because I think, you know, art has always been necessary, but I think in a time like this, it's, it's even more so, or at least there's more awareness to how much it's needed and, and how much transformative power it has.
[00:08:03] Doug Motel: Yeah. Yeah. Because art is something that links us, that brings us together.  You know, of course theater brings us together physically when we're in the same room. We can't, we can't be doing that right now, but even just, you know, looking at a piece of art and, you know, right now what I'm doing is abstract art, where, where I'm not painting, I'm not painting things, you know, I'm not painting, you know, people, places or things that are, you know, known. But I'm just using color and shapes and lines to suggest a feeling. But it does connect you when you look at a piece of abstract art and you sort of let your, your mind go. It connects you to the artist and, and, and can, can connect you to the, the, the thought that anyone who looks at this art, also looks at this art is having a shared experience with you. And we need it. We need it now.
[00:08:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Now, you know, I know that from the very beginning, it sounds like you taught yourself, and of course you had some resources through books and things like that to help with that. But did you ever go and have some more formal like art classes or anything like that? Or are you really just, you just kept exploring your own art and learning on your own.
[00:09:20] Doug Motel: Well, when I was 12, I convinced my parents to let me study privately with a woman. Her name was Lorraine Watson, she has since passed, but you know, kind of like you would drop your kid off at violin lessons every week. They would drop me off at Mrs. Watson's house. And I would, she, she did teach me perspective. She taught me you know, she taught me drawing. She did teach me watercolor. She specialized in a Japanese Sumi painting and she taught me a little bit of that. So yeah, I studied privately. And then when I was in high school, I was enrolled in our local vocational school and I studied commercial art, but that was really the extent of it. I dropped out of high school and just really to get away from my environment and I moved to New York City and I studied acting, but I didn't go to university or in things that.
[00:10:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so then from that opportunity in New York city, how did your life trajectory go? 'Cause it sounds like, I mean, obviously you've had so many amazing different experiences, but I'm just curious how, how you got from maybe New York City to LA and just, have you just always been an artist? Is that kind of been your, your path in, in many different forms?
[00:10:42] Doug Motel: Well, I mean, I've always been an artist, but I'm very, very little of my time has been making money doing art. So I've had a million jobs. I've had, I honestly have had more jobs than I could even imagine doing all sorts of things. Most of them legal. Some, some of them perhaps morally questionable, but I did what I could do, you know, as a teenager, living in New York City and not knowing anybody. I did what I could do to survive. But when I was 19, I started performing in comedy clubs. So I would write these little plays that always had some sort of message or theme about human nature, you know, unpacking the nature of reality. I've always just been very interested in things like that. And so I would write these little plays and I would do them in cabarets and comedy clubs in New York City.
[00:11:42] And so that was the main thrust of my, my art, but, you know, so I was essentially a stand-up comic, but I did very different-- the work I did was more, more like what you might've seen Andy Kaufman. My influences were people like Richard Pryor, Robin Williams, Lily Tomlin, people that would do a lot of character work and not necessarily tell jokes per se, the jokes were locked into the characters. And then one day when I was, I think 24, someone saw me performing and then booked me into a, a place in Santa Monica. And so that was kind of, you know, it, I, I went, I flew to LA and I literally got off the plane. I saw that Hollywood sign. I saw how warm it was. And I was like, "Okay, I am moving here."
[00:12:32] And actually within a week, even though I was just out there to reform within a week, I found an apartment. I found a job as an apartment manager where I'd get a free apartment in exchange for, you know, taking care of the building. And then I flew back to New York. I gave my apartment away. I got one of those drive away cars where you, someone asks you to drive their car, you know, for free. But I had never, I had never driven a car before, so I had to get a couple of drivers' license drivers' classes. So I got some class, I took like two driving lessons. And then I packed up one of those drive away cars that I drove across country and I moved to LA and I thought I was, I would live there forever, but when "Shiva Arms" seemed to find an audience and I was encouraged to move back to New York to do it perhaps on Broadway.
[00:13:20]I went back to New York, but unfortunately it was just a few days before 9/11. And I happened to been down in front of the World World Trade Center on 9/11, 'cause I had a temp job in an office facing the World Trade Center. And so that that's a whole other, if you ever have me back as a guest, some other time, I can tell you what that was like to look out the window and see all those people jumping. I was really traumatized by that event. 'Cause I had, cause I had left Los Angeles, I left everything that I really had built up to move to New York just to have that happen. And so yeah. So yeah, that changed some things.
[00:14:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, your story is so incredible how just you've had all these different experiences and opportunities and it's so cool to hear just the way that you got from A to B to Z and all those fun things. And so, yeah, thank you for sharing that. Oh my goodness. And so do you do stand up comedy anymore, or?
[00:14:25] Doug Motel: Well, you know, there's no, there's no place to do it now, really, you know and I, I was working on a piece a little bit when this happened . Right now I'm very obsessed with the fine arts and the abstract painting. It's hard for me to think beyond that, but my chances are pretty good that I'll someday write another, I call it, you know, they really are plays, they're solo plays that I just happened to play all the characters. And I've had, I think, seven of these produced. So it's very possible that I'll want to do another one, but right now my focus really is on painting. It's so easy. Like you don't have to, like when you're performing you, I have to like get in shape. You know, I have to, you know, do yoga all the time. I have to make sure I don't get sick. I have to vocalize. I have to run lines every day. You know, and then just, there's a lot of preparation and, and also collaboration. You're dependent on other people, the theaters, the producers, there's so much that's involved in it. It can be very, very rewarding, but it also can be very exhausting and, you know, painting-- it's just so solitary.
[00:15:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and what a perfect time to be obsessed with this particular project, because it's not like there are tons of opportunities to perform live, so yeah, I think that timing worked out beautifully.
[00:15:51] Doug Motel: Yeah, I think so, too.
[00:15:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, I'm curious. I mean, you obviously-- well, my interpretation is-- you are incredibly brave and all the different things that you've done to step out of your comfort zone time and time again-- or just what you're familiar with, maybe not even comfort zone-- and go for the next thing is just awesome. So I'm curious, how did that come about? Or what advice could you give somebody who is maybe hoping to take, you know, a leap of faith and not there yet?
[00:16:23] Doug Motel: Oh yes. So you know, there's some cliches that you know, we hear them all the time. So we've become immune to them. They've lost their impact, but, you know, they're cliches for a reason because they often are true. And the cliche that people have become sort of immune to-- which is very true, though, in spite of that-- is that this isn't the rehearsal. This is the thing. This is life we're living now. This is not a dress rehearsal. This is the show itself. And I just feel like there's so much about our society that has us focused on what's missing. It's almost like, you know, you're given a donut and all we can focus on is that hole in the middle, the empty hole. And we don't see the sugary treat. I feel like our whole society is like a cult and it's like the cult of more, you need to have more, you need to be more successful. You need to have more likes on social media, you need to have more money, more and more, more, and it's like this carrot that's dangled in front of you. Many people don't even know what it is that they're looking for, what it is that they want more of, but they just know like they need to have more.
[00:17:36] And I would say that comes a point where you have to understand that there's nothing out there, all, all that this, all that life really is-- it's almost just like a bunch of pearls strung on a string. Like it's just, it's just moments. They're just a bunch of now moments strung together. That's what a life is. And if you don't seize the moment, if you don't give every moment the importance, and approach each moment with a mental posture of "this is the most important moment on my life." This is it. It's not coming. It's not around the bend. You know, it's not when I get this or when I get rid of this or when I change this. No, this is it now, because if there's something that you want or something that you feel is missing, this is the day. This is the moment to be doing something, to bring that into fruition, to bring that into your life.
[00:18:42] And I think our culture hypnotizes us into just putting that off and putting it off and any day now, and yes, I'm going to do, you know, when I'm more together or when I'm more healed or when I'm not, when I'm not so messed up or so neurotic or, or whatever. But I just say, come as you are, you know, no matter how messed up you may be or how broken you may feel, you are, you still have the agency to live for this moment, to have this moment right now be the most important moment. You know, I feel like from the beginning of time, people who were dying, people on their death bed have told us the same message year after year after year after millennium, after millennium, they say," You know, don't take it so serious."
[00:19:29] That's what they're learning and they give us this message and then they die and then they, you know, they think we're going to, you know, and then we just, we go, "Oh, wow. Yeah, don't take us as seriously." And then we forget. And then we get right back in there and we make it all very serious. And I think if you've made it serious so far, that's okay, that's over now. But right now in this moment, listening to Lindsey and I talking, all that is over, and this is a new moment for you. You're born again and you can choose again and you can take an action right now to, to move yourself closer to the circumstances that you want especially if you understand that your circumstances changing is not going to give you life, is not going to put the play button. The record button for life is on.
[00:20:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that was brilliant.
[00:20:22]Doug Motel: I've thought a lot about this. I've lost people. And I guess partly because I'm coming out of this whole period, you know, this whole period of this pandemic and I just, you know, this is it. This is it, folks.
[00:20:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's that realization and it's important and no, I'm absolutely serious. I was sitting here thinking, do you do motivational speaking as well? Because if you don't, you could.
[00:20:51]Doug Motel: Sure. I do. I have to confess that I have a, kind of a weird story, a weird backstory that, you know, sometimes I feel funny talking about, but I guess at this point, it just seems natural for me to tell you that when I was four years old, I fell off of a ladder and I had a head injury. And when I came back from the hospital that very night, I had what I guess people would call a mystical experience. And I can't say that I can explain what this is, but there was a a presence. It was like a sphere. It was like an orb, I guess, that came to me. And it said "uni verse, uni, one verse, from a song, all is one." and basically it was telling me that the whole universe was one living thing, and it came and visited me in my room and in our little apartment for a year, every single night. And it never said anything else.  At first I was very scared. I was scared because I was, I mean, that was four years old, you know, and there was this presence, you know, but then by the end of the year,  I became to really welcome it and this orb would appear. And it would just say the same thing, that "the world was one thing."
[00:22:03] And I think my whole life, Lindsey, has been unpacking that. My whole life really has been spent looking at that quote unquote "mystical experience" or whatever from that head injury and thinking, you know,  it's kind of true. If you say you look at a tree and we may think of there's, that tree is if that's a separate object, but can you separate a tree from the soil that, that the roots are in, or can you separate a tree from the sun that's coming onto it? You know, like where does tree stop and all that other stuff start? And I know I'm getting super esoteric here but, you know, these are weird things to talk about and yet when you really stop and think about it, we're just told that we're separate from each other. And all the things, but there's no real evidence. There's no evidence. And if you pull back and you look at the earth from space, earth looks like one thing. And if you pull back into farther into space, our solar system looks like it's one kind of a thing you can point to that. And  the ball that visited me when I was four, you know, telling me that everything was one, I've just spent my whole life unpacking that idea.
[00:23:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. I mean, what an incredible experience. And I love that that's kind of been the catalyst, I guess, for exploration as to your search for truth and meaning, and, right, all those things. That's really cool.
[00:23:36] Doug Motel: Yeah. I don't think I've ever done anything artistically that wasn't in some way connected to my trying to really get a deeper understanding of the nature of our reality.
[00:23:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's cool. Well, my goodness, you have such an inspiring story, not only from your own perspective and all those different experiences that you've had. But again, just your bravery, your willingness to be here and now and live in the moment, and what that's brought you, because you've gotten to do some really cool things. And so I just really appreciate you sharing all of that and sharing your inspiration as far as, you know, "Go for it. This is the show, that there is no dress rehearsal."
[00:24:21] Doug Motel: You know, you asked me about motivational speaking and you're right, yes. I have done a lot of that. I, I wrote a play that was about a British screenwriter being plagued by his own mind, his own inner critic. And then I wound up turning that play into a workshop, the play's called "Mind Salad" and the workshop is, you know, about how we can really identify the voice of criticism, right? And the voice in there that's, it's, it's out to get you it's, it's the voice trying to keep you from being in the now. And so I've done that workshop. I've done it for people with life-threatening illnesses. I've done it for, I think, I think if you go to mindsalad.com, there's information about that. I've done it for people in recovery. I've done it for, you know, all kinds of different organizations. I do a retreat every year.
[00:25:07]Last year I did it on Hawaii. And this year I had to do it virtually, but "Playing the Game," I did, it's called "Playing the Game" of the year. So it was "Playing the Game of 2021." And it was a three-day Zoom retreat about looking at the previous year and being complete with it, you know, the good, taking a look at the good, the bad and the ugly and really putting it to bed. And then looking at what do you want the coming year to feel like much more, I'm much more interested nowadays and how do you want it to feel? Because ultimately that's what really matters more than, you know, what do you want to accomplish? So yeah, so I do these workshops. I do coach people on this stuff too. Sometimes I say that I'm a storyteller who helps people look at the story that they're telling themselves about themselves. And I work with people in that way, so yeah, that's a whole other component of it that's, that's pretty important to me. I have a TEDx talk called "Using the Present to Create the Future." You might, you could look for that on YouTube as well.
[00:26:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Awesome. Yeah, I'm definitely going to check that out. Well, this is very exciting and I'm sure that some of our listeners would want to connect with you, follow some of your work, just see what's going on. Do you have a way for us to do that?
[00:26:25] Doug Motel: Yeah. So there's dougmotel.com. There's also dougmartel.art. And then on Instagram, there's Doug Motel Art.
[00:26:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect.
[00:26:35] Doug Motel: Yeah. And I'd love to hear from people. If any of this conversation got you thinking about seizing the moment, actually, it's funny, you said "This is the Show." Actually I did write a one man, a musical memoir called "This is the Show." So there's also songs. I wrote some pop songs and there's one is called, "This is the Show."
[00:26:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Perfect. I love it. Well, okay. So I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.
[00:27:05] Doug Motel: Yeah, sure.
[00:27:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:27:13]Doug Motel: I think that art is when you actively step into creation and extend that, whatever, you know, whatever it is that created us has, I believe that whatever it is that created us has endowed us with the very same abilities, which is to create. And whenever you step into that and make a choice to create you are partaking in art. You are making art.
[00:27:45]Lindsey Dinneen:  I like it. Perfect. Okay. And then w what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:27:53]Doug Motel: Well, I think the, the role of the artist is to lead us in our evolution. I think that you know, Darwin pointed out that we evolved from creatures in the sea, you know, we keep evolving and I think that there's an assumption that evolution is just kind of like on autopilot, but I don't. I believe that we could actually hasten the pace of our evolution. We can you know steer and direct our evolution and the ones that do that are the artists. So the role of the artist is nothing short of saving humanity.
[00:28:34]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that so much. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and includes some context behind that, whether it's inspiration or program notes or title, something, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but it doesn't provide context. And so it's left entirely up to the viewer as to its interpretation.
[00:29:09] Doug Motel: Oh, well, as a multi- medium artist, I think it depends on the medium. You know, sometimes for theater, some kind of context may be very helpful to people, whether it's program notes or a prologue or something like that. It can be, you know, really helped the artist to convey the idea. As an abstract painter, I try to stay out of the way. I try not to talk too much about what I was thinking or what was behind when I was making a painting and instead just, you know, I, I feel like my paintings are similar, well, it's kind of similar to-- well, it's funny. I never thought about that til right now, but I always say, you know, people say, "Oh, you do one man shows." And I said, "Well, not really, cause like I do my bit." And then the audience does their bit because I feed off of that energy, you know, I'll throw out something into the audience and then they'll give me back some, you know, laughter or whatever, and then I'll throw it back to them. It's like a game, a toss, you know, like a game of just tossing the ball.
[00:30:14]But I just realized now that I think that's what I'm going for also with my painting, because I, half of it is me doing the painting, but then the other half of it is allowing the, the viewer to have their own experience. Sometimes people look at my paintings and they may have a  whole story. And I love that, you know, you can project onto it, you know like Rorschach tests. So in that medium it's best if I get out of the way, but I used to do very real, very, very realistic portraits. And sometimes it was helpful for me to write a little story about who the person was that I was, you know, doing the portrait of  because they were important to me historically, but maybe not a famous person.  Giving people context for who they were made their experience of enjoying the artwork even greater. So it really depends on the medium.
[00:31:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. And I love that you have like an unpacking moment right now about your art. That's really fun. I love it. Perfect. Well, this was incredible. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for sharing your art. Thank you for what you've brought to the world and helping us to evolve. As you mentioned, I really appreciate that you've devoted your life to that and that you've stayed consistent in your mission to bring art to the world. So that's important and valuable. And thank you for doing that.
[00:31:44] Doug Motel: Thank you, Lindsey, so much for allowing me to talk about this today.
[00:31:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would highly encourage all of our listeners to check out Doug's website, see some of the work that he's done, go watch the video on Amazon, and all of the other opportunities you have to connect with him. Obviously he is incredibly inspiring and I'm sure that all of us will be so excited to continue to follow his journey. So thank you again, Doug, for being here and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:32:27]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:32:35]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 048 - Kristin Beale

In today's episode, I welcome Kristin Beale! Kristin is an author and illustrator, with a powerful story to share about overcoming an accident that left her paralyzed from the waist down. She shares her advice for aspring artists, her experience publishing three books and producing a TV show, and so much more. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Kristin holding a copy of her book, "Greater Things!"
 
Get in touch with Kristin Beale: https://kristinbeale.com/
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 48 - Kristin Beale
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Kristin Beale. She is an author and illustrator and she has incredible stories to share. And I just am so excited to dive in. Thank you so much for being here, Kristin.
[00:00:51] Kristin Beale: I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, and I would love if you would just share a little bit, maybe about your background, kind of what got you into what you do now and all that fun stuff, if you don't mind.
[00:01:05] Kristin Beale: Yeah, definitely. So I have quite a story. When I was 14 years old in 2005, I was in a jet ski accident. It was the summer before my sophomore year of high school. So I was about to turn 15 years old. The accident was tragic, life-changing, all those things. It killed the driver of my jet ski and it paralyzed me from the mid- torso down. I had a traumatic brain injury and a spinal cord injury. Doctors told my parents  "Your daughter is never going to live." Or, you know, "If she does, she's not going to breathe or talk or swallow or all that stuff." And then I did, I'm talking, breathing, swallowing. So they, then they said, "She's going to be a vegetable." first of all, 'cause I had a traumatic brain injury, and then if "She's not, she's going to, I'm not going to have, I had a traumatic brain injury on the left side, so I'm not going to have the ability to use my right side," is what they said. And they said "I'm never going to feel or move below my injury level again."
[00:01:55] So that's a lot to load onto my poor parents, but they did, and I have overcome all those things. I am not a vegetable, et cetera, and I'm still working. And I started, I started on my journey to recovery in going to California, traveling the world, getting stem cells, et cetera, to regain feeling and movement in my lower body to walk and feel again and prove the doctor's wrong on that. So I got out of the hospital in December of 2005. And then I came back and then I went to California for, you know, a month, worked out five or four hours a day, five days a week, just out of control, came back, started my sophomore year of high school. And I was looking for a easy class to take, and I heard that the teacher of creative writing was kind of a slacker and also you can't really, you know, fail a creative writing class. So I took a creative writing class. I really, I kind of, this is where I can start to kind of discover my creativity.
[00:02:51]I discovered that I love to write. I'm pretty good at it. I have a lot of things going on that are new experiences that I can write about. And to accompany it, so I took creative writing class and I took an art class, two classes that you can't really, you know, do badly in because it's all subjective. So creative writing, I realized that I love to write. In art class, I realized that I love to draw and, you know, they were both there. I use them both as kind of outlets to discovering this new world of disability and all of this new things going on in my life. And it was kind of like a venting, but it was a relaxing 'cause you know, all the craziness of my new paralyzed world. But I'm, you know, just in my drawings and I was just expressing myself that way and I'm, you know, expressing myself and my frustrations in a way that I don't in my normal life, 'cause I'm like a super sweet girl and you know, it was kind of an outlet for me.
[00:03:43]So I started to make drawings when I was 15 years old surrounding my disability. I kind of define my character. I drew, I drew Molly. My main character is a girl in a wheelchair, which is me. And I'm just going through, you know, situations in life, which I really go through. And I actually, for the first three years of me kind of discovering how to draw her, that I liked to draw. I did a comic every day. I did a three block comic every day. Just like things that happen, usually, you know, mundane, just boring things that happened. I did it every single day for the whole entire year. And then on Christmas, I just gave my mom, you know, the year's worth of drawings, because I didn't really care 'cause I didn't really want them anymore. And she wanted them and it's an easy Christmas present and it's just like, you know, a year of a day in the life of me. And that's when I kinda really started to get into it.
[00:04:35]So, it was my first book "Greater Things" in 2017, and that was a book that's about like the weekend before my accident, where we see, we meet this boy I have a really big crush on, and the next weekend he actually hits me in the jet ski and it's kind of the weekend before my accident, all the way up to 2014. So I'm traveling the world, I'm working out, I'm getting stem cell surgery. I'm trying all these adaptive sports. I'm graduating high school in college, doing all these things, published a book in 2014 in March and in February the month before it came out, I quit my job cause I, you know, I'm not interested in mortgage banking. I was looking for an excuse to get out of it. I published a book. So I said, "Okay, please God, make me successful in this enough to like eat and sustain my life." So the book was a great success. And three months after my book came out, I said, "All right, I quit my job. I either need to write another book or I need to get a job." So I decided I'll write another book. So I started, so what I did, as I said, what do I do? A lot of that, I know a lot about that I can write a book about, and my answer was go on first dates.
[00:05:39] So I was very, very, very single at the time. So I, you know, updated my profile in-- Bumble was my app of choice, updated my profile picture. I went on 32 dates in two and a half months, and that looks like a lot. I know it's crazy. A lunch date, a dinner date, you know, four different boys a week. Kinda like at the end of it, of course, as you can imagine, I've kind of lost my desire for you know, a successful relationship. And I'm just kinda chasing the story because these boys were that I went on dates with were like way too rude. Everyone can relate to a bad first date, but throw disability into it and dating gets a little bit more difficult. So what I was doing is, I was going on these dates. I was enduring these, you know, it makes me sound like such a warrior, but like I was enduring these rude comments, the like, the bad jokes, like the offensive jokes and just mainly just rude comments.
[00:06:32] Gross people are gross dates, I guess, in my experience. And I was going home and I was making a comic of them, changing their name like that, getting home from the date that night changes their name, making comic of it and moving on. It was my way of coping, I guess, but it was also documenting these dates and trying to add a humorous angle on this very relatable situation. So at the end of it, when I reached 32, I said, "I can't do this anymore. Like, I've had enough. I need, I think, I finally have enough." So I published a comic book called "Date Me" and and it had all, all my first dates in there. And it also had comics around being single, being in a wheelchair, like, you know,  people make or jokes they make, or things people say, or just like kind of adding a funny angle on a kind of crummy situation.
[00:07:19]And I published "Date Me" in 2018. And, you know, I started drawing in 2015. It's been a very fun book to publish because I'm, you know, it was a subject that is a lot of dating as a subject. It's a lot of fun, but, and it was also fun because these guys, I went on dates with some of them, like five or six of them, like, "Hey Kristin, what have you been doing?" I'm like, actually I published a book and you're in it. I changed your name. And some of them bought it, some of them didn't and never talked to me again and all of them didn't talk to me again, but I was completely honest. So if you don't want to like be published in a book, just don't be mean to me
[00:07:55]Lindsey Dinneen: That's just great life advice in general. Just-- if you don't want to end up in someone's book, just be nice. Yeah. Easy.
[00:08:02]Kristin Beale: I told them I was an author. What did they expect?
[00:08:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, you are such an overcomer and I just love your story. Thank you for sharing that. And gosh, I, I feel like you probably glossed over how challenging all of those-- I mean, you had so much to overcome, but like kudos to you for just never giving up, never accepting the doctor's word for it, that you couldn't do something just because they said. So good for you.
[00:08:36] Kristin Beale: Thank you. I gave you the quick and easy for the full version. You can read "Greater Things," but...
[00:08:40]Lindsey Dinneen:  Perfect. I love it. Well, and with "Date Me," I just, first of all, that sounds like such a great premise. I can't wait to read the book, but do you have-- like, what is the funniest story that you encounter that kind of stands out to you?
[00:08:54] Kristin Beale: Oh my gosh. So, funny depends on your definition of funny. Once I became into the more callous zone, like the ruder they get or the more ridiculous it is, the funnier it is because I'm just like, whatever I'm thinking in my head, "Whatever, I'm going to publish you in a comic book when I get home" or like When I'm going to make a comic of this later. So things like-- one of the most relatable to wheelchair users comic that I have is, I guess you would call them jokes. The jokes people make like, you know,  "Do you have a license to drive that thing?" Or like "Slow down, you're breaking the speed limit," but stupid things like that. Like, " We need backup, backup blinker so we can know when you're backing up, or like blinkers to know which way you're turning." Just like all the vehicle jokes around my wheelchair. It's like exhausting, but for whatever reason, like people love to make it.
[00:09:41] It's not offensive to me because whatever, I don't care, I'll make a comic of you. So it's fine. But I can, but I can take that comic, 'cause I, in one of the comics I put, I know there's six block comics, so I have five, five of those jokes. I have six of those jokes, I'll put together in one big comic and I can show that to a wheelchair user and they can just, I mean, laugh in agreement because everyone's heard them because everyone makes something. I don't know why people make them. It's just like, it's not offensive, but it's just dumb. It's just bad humor. No offense to listeners who make those jokes, but it's just not fun.
[00:10:12]Lindsey Dinneen:  No, they should probably hear that too, right? Like, you know, things that are funny to you are probably just like ridiculous to the people you're telling them to. So maybe just stop, just stop, to sum up. Oh man. Okay. Well, yeah, that makes complete sense. So now that you've done that and you've gone on from there, it sounds like you're still on a journey to continue to be, you know, writing more books and maybe doing other things too. I got kind of a hint to that before we started recording.
[00:10:45] Kristin Beale: Yeah. So being an entrepreneur, working from like saying I'm not going to get a job, and working for myself is a constant, you know, at all hours of the day. I guess not struggle, but a constant job because I have to keep, keep the money coming in and keep doing things, keep doing projects. But that being said, it is so much fun and I love it. And I love my work so much. And I like don't mind if I have to, you know, write for a little bit past five o'clock. I don't, I don't mind the work at all. So what I'm doing, two things, the "Date Me"  comic book of all those dates.  Last June, I was approached by Salt Fire Studio and their local production company, and they told me that they wanted to turn "Date Me" into a TV show. And before I lost my mind, because I had, I had done this before, cause I had two people, two producers come to me and say, they want to make "Greater Things" a video.
[00:11:39]So I get very, very excited and then it falls through and then I'm very, very disappointed, you know, as it goes. So when Tyler Darden, the owner and producer of Salt Fire Studio, he told me that he wanted to make "Date Me" to a TV show. I'm like, "Yeah. Okay. Like, let's talk when, when you get serious." So about a year later, Tyler comes to me and he says," All right, I'm ready to make it into a show." And in about a month of, you know, my dream coming true, we cast a girl to play Kristin from the other side of the country. She's from California. We had to cast my best friend, Katie, my dad for the first episode, my dad, and four dates, four different men. In the first episode, I go on seven dates. And so much fun. We recorded it. We put out the pilot episode, it's on YouTube. If you search "Date Me." We're also on Instagram as "Date Me" show and Facebook, at "Date Me" series, and we are raising money to make episode two and the rest of season one. So you know, we're on Patrion and stuff. But it's so much fun in the videos out there.
[00:12:39] So I want, I'm excited to be able to share my experience and, you know, my funny and bummer situations with everyone. So everyone go on YouTube and watch the first episode. So that's, that's my active, latest project, but also my ongoing projects. So ever since "Date Me "the comic book came out, was published in 2018, I started a weekly comic Instagram page where it's just every week on Instagram, it's every Tuesday comes out. And it's just like something that happened during the week. Something I thought about just something funny that it wrote it's it is six block comics again, because that's my style. And it's found on Instagram at Greater Things Comics. So that's a really fun thing. So if nothing else, check that out and follow along, because I have a lot of fun with that because it's my ability to consistently put out art, and consistently have a reason-- I mean, there's no reason for me to be doing that, doing those weekly comics, except for it's fun for me, 'cause I'm not like making any money off of it, but it's, it's fun to like have an audience and being able to share my art. And that's been one of the biggest blessings out of this ability to share and ability to have an audience.
[00:13:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's amazing. And to help inspire other people because your story is so amazing. And then you're able to also talk about the fact that art was such a big part of, you know, finding out what you wanted to do with your life, which is so cool. I mean, I think it's just ironic and, and entertaining how, you know, at first it was like, well, these are the two classes that will  be kind of easier credits and then you end up falling in love with it. Like, I love that. Wow. That's fantastic. Congratulations. That's such a big deal for this TV show and everything. So this is so exciting. Oh, my word. Yeah. Congratulations.
[00:14:28] Kristin Beale: Thank you. Life is so much fun. Life is so much fun. It's a little bit stressful when you're working for yourself and you're unemployed, but it's one of the best things that I have ever done. 'Cause it's, it's just so much fun 'cause I'm doing what I love every day and, you know, and people, people say that they're like, "Oh, I love my job." And I've always wondered, "Do they really love their job?" Like, "Do they really look forward to going into work in the morning?" And then I quit my job and started my own thing and I truly just love my job.
[00:14:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and speaking of that, because that is such a big undertaking, is there any kind of advice you would give somebody who might be interested in doing that? Like they, they want to take their side gig, their side passion, and make it their full-time thing. I mean, how, how do you make it work? Like on a practical day-to-day basis?
[00:15:15]Kristin Beale: So before you take the leap, figure out how much money you need and make sure that doing your side gig, that you have the ability to make money off it. Like, for me, it's a little tight, but I have my books and book sales, and then I have some of the it's, write for Chris Reeve Foundation every month, twice a month. So I have that income coming in. I just do a bunch of side gigs, which again is fun because it's, you know, side stuff like writing. And I love to write, and like drawing, which you know, is not profitable yet, but one day. And so make sure that the money part is taken care of. And then if you're trying to turn a hobby into a job, be very mindful of, of that. Because if once, once I start dreading drawing or dreading writing or, you know, just doing it, 'cause I have to do it  is when it turns into less of a fun thing and more of a responsibility and the, the love for it is lost. So you have to closely manage your feelings closely so that you don't-- you know, I used to love to draw, but then I quit my job. Like I choose to be my best friend and then I moved in with her. And then, so now we're enemies. That's like a common roommate thing. So it's kind of the same thing with art, like make sure that you still love it and that it's still fun for you because it's miserable if it's not.
[00:16:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. I, I was thinking along the exact same lines when you were talking about the transition of something that you love to do on the side and make it and how fun that can be, but then when you have to do it in order to, to make money. Yeah. I really appreciated your advice on that. Make sure you got the money thing figured out, so it doesn't become burdensome and frustrating all of a sudden, you know, instead of your joy. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, cool. So I'm so curious, is it really odd to watch someone else portray you in a TV show?
[00:17:09] Kristin Beale: People ask me that all the time and yes, it is always, it is always a lot. And it's because it's this, it's this girl who she's not in a wheelchair, but I taught her. I mean, I teach her how to be a wheelchair. It's not that hard, it's kind of like, sit down and don't move your legs. It's a little more complicated than that. But she's using my old wheelchair. I taught her how to be in a wheelchair. I taught her how to do things like transfer and I taught her how to do wheelies. And it's, it's odd when I'm behind the scenes directing it and, you know, she says something and then I can stop and say, "Hey, like, say that a little less cheesy," or like, "Say that, you know, a little more excited or not," and just to be able to direct someone to be me, which is very cool. And when you guys watched the episode, look for me in the background. I make a few cameos in there. Enough to learn that I love to be behind the scenes and I'm not an actress. I'm not an actress. I had a couple of lines. I'm a wheelchair fencer too.
[00:18:05]So I had a couple of lines in the fencing gym to the girl who plays Kristin. And by couple, I mean, like, I think I had three lines and we had to shoot it five or six times because I kept forgetting, you know, three sentences, three lines, or I'm like, I'm giggling in the right place or I'm like snorting, or like, it's just kind of like, what are you? But for what, like, I'm not nervous, but I get in front of the camera and I like lose my sense of I'm a human being. And so anyway, I love to be behind the camera and I love to direct people to be me, which is fun. And I love to get myself to get my passive aggressive revenge. Once again, 'cause these, these guys who were rude to me or like gross or, you know, whatever they were, I'm publishing in the comic book, which is like exposing you and, you know, teaching you that lesson maybe. But now I'm taking it one step further and I'm, you know, portraying them in a video. So it's really like, don't cross me. I'm just kidding, but really.
[00:19:02] Lindsey Dinneen: But seriously. Amazing. Oh my goodness. Okay. And I feel like, so you had a moment where I was like, wait, what? So, okay. You also fence.
[00:19:12] Kristin Beale: Oh, yeah. So the first episode is really fun because I am a wheelchair fencer. I've national- level competing wheelchair fencer. That's been really fun, but doing that for about two years, it's kind of me, who is a very soft and friendly and happy person. People say, "Oh, you have an outlet. You have an outlet is your fencing." And I'm like, "I don't, I don't have anger that I need outlet." So it's a very like out of character to be a fencer, but it's very, very fun. And it's one, I've tried over 14 adaptive sports and it's one of my favorites. My second favorite is hand cycling. I've done nine marathons, very active. That's very fun. That's like the equivalent of running. It's like a bike with three wheels that I push with my arms. So I, when I do marathons, it's like the equivalent of running and that's been awesome because before I was in my accident, I was a lacrosse player, field hockey player and competition cheerleader. So I was very active. And so when I got in my accident, my biggest heartbreak was I can't do sports. Like I can't, you know, I don't have that outlet. I'm going to get, you know, I'm going to get fat and I'm just going to be sitting there. I'm not going to have any way to like exercise my body, except for ,you know, arm, arm exercise in the gym, but adaptive sports are so much, in my opinion, so much more fun than regular sports. And hand cycling and fencing have been my two favorites.
[00:20:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's amazing. I love that. And honestly, I wasn't familiar with the term "adaptive sports." so what all kinds of options are there out there? 
[00:20:37]Kristin Beale: So I'll try to remember them all. I've done lacrosse, tennis, archery, rowing, and cycling, fencing. What else? I've tried everything that is available to me except for basketball, because I'm just really not naturally good at it at all. But I'm just not into basketball. Let me think what else? So there's an adaptive sports like team league, I guess. And I'm from Richmond. And they have, I think 15 sports, 15 or 16 sports available to people who sign up. So that's how I'm getting all of them. And then I went through the adaptive fencing through the VA hospital. They were just having a clinic and then I got onto the-- I'm not on the national team-- but I compete with the people. I'm not good enough to be like Olympic on the national team, but I fence alongside-- I'm friends with the people who are going to, you know, Tokyo next year or like one guy has been two, two Olympics. And he was just like here fencing with me. And it's very cool. So. All the opportunities and the places I get to travel for that, like I have been to the Olympic training center in Colorado Springs for two years in a row. I guess pre-COVID actually right before the pandemic started. I was coming over from Colorado for a week of training, like five hours of fencing per day in this beautiful Colorado Springs. And it's, it's the best.
[00:21:53] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so cool. And I love the opportunities that you've gotten to have because of it. And, oh my goodness, the people you get to interact with, how awesome is that?
[00:22:01] Kristin Beale: Yeah, like being at the training center, and you're surrounded by people from all different sports. I mean, able-bodied and disabled. We were actually the only wheelchair users there. But, but just like being, being like in the environment of, you know, that level of athleticism. Being around all these Olympians, just walking around, eating next to you in the dining hall. It's, it's really, really cool. I don't know a stronger word for that, but it's really cool.
[00:22:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I was going to say if it seems so surreal, just like, is this my life?
[00:22:31] Kristin Beale: Where am I again?
[00:22:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Do you think you'll ever write about your sports adventures? Like your fencing and things like that, or is that just like part of other things, do you think?
[00:22:43]Kristin Beale: Definitely. And I have, so in "Greater Things," my first book is where I was very new in my disability, so I was learning. Skiing was also a big one. I went to Colorado a couple of years in a row to ski at the like Breckenridge . That was really fun. So that was my first adaptive sport. And my first book, I think I'd tried nine or 10 of them. And there's a chapter for each one. You know, skiing, for example, it looks very cool. And you're in this mono ski and I'm, you know, I have like little mini skis, sitting down, of course. I have little mini skis on each hand and it looks very like, you know, awesome and fun. But then if you read my book, you see the perspective of like, I have snow in my nose. I don't like the cold. I keep falling. So you see the very real experience of it and it's unique of course, 'cause I'm, you know, paralyzed. So not a lot of people can relate to that, but then you see the reality of like, "Oh, she's doing this, you know, totally unique thing." But she's also like, you know, kind of just like me, 'cause she has snow in her nose and she doesn't like the cold and all that stuff.
[00:23:44] So. That was my first book is I did all those sports. And then I found my love for for hand cycling at the end of that book. And so I did the New York marathon was my first, my first marathon. So I, I did that marathon. I fell in love with sport, all that stuff. And then I published my third book, which is called "A Million Suns." And there's a chapter where it's like of that clinic where I discover wheelchair fencing. And, and then later on in the book, you see, actually I love wheelchair fencing. And so, so you're kind of going through all these new sports and experiencing that for the first time with me. And then you realize, you know, I found the two things I love: hand cycling and fencing.
[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Oh, perfect. Oh, I can't wait to read those books. Obviously I would like to, to continue to follow your journey and I'm sure some of our listeners would too. Is there a way for us to connect with you or where can we, you know, support you and follow you and everything?
[00:24:40] Kristin Beale: Awesome. So like I said, well, okay. Like I said, The Greater Things comics on Instagram. We have "Date Me" show on Instagram and I'm also Kristin Beale on Instagram, lots of Instagram here. And then my website is kristinbeale.com and that's where you can watch a video of me talking about my accident a little bit. You can read an excerpt, you can buy a book, whatever. You can also buy books on Amazon.
[00:25:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:25:14] Kristin Beale: Ooh, so I define art as an outlet because that's what it is to me. It started as an outlet. And so now , it's turning into an outlet for me when I got hurt and all this stuff. And now it's an outlet for my creativity and for my humor and for my personality. Whereas before it was an outlet for my frustration. I mean, at times it still is not for my frustration, but an outlet for my frustration and my new experiences and kind of digesting the world around me. So it looks like for me, it looks like, you know, real life experiences are relatable things or just things that will make you laugh or things that's a way to entertain people. Yeah, so an outlet for my creativity.
[00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:26:01] Kristin Beale: Hm. The important role: to entertain and not to entertain others for that is a big plus, but to entertain yourself, to keep yourself happy to stay while you're doing it for it to be a good, you know, way to keep yourself happy. And, you know, it's a major plus if it can bring happiness to other people too.
[00:26:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive, and inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's the inspiration or title or program notes, something just so that we kind of know what the artist was thinking. Versus an artist who puts their work out there and it doesn't provide the context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.
[00:26:56] Kristin Beale: I like the idea of an exclusive, I'm not putting context into it, because it allows people to have their own experience with your art and interpret it based off of, you know, things in their life and make it personal to them on their own terms. Instead of someone, you know-- they're both right ways-- but instead of someone forcing you and saying, "This is how you should take in this art," but saying "You know, do what you will with it." Just putting it out here.
[00:27:22]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much, so much for being here today, Kristin. Your story is just incredibly inspiring and humorous, and I cannot wait to-- well the humorous part, being all your dating stories, I mean don't get me wrong-- but I just love, I just loved what you were sharing with us and I cannot wait to read those books and I highly encourage anyone listening to this episode to do so too, and follow Kristin on Instagram and all the different ways that she's doing that. Go, if you can support her endeavor with the TV show and, and all those things. So seriously, Kristin, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.
[00:28:06]Kristin Beale:  It's so much fun. Thank you.
[00:28:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:28:21] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:28:30]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 047 - Lucas Zellers

In today's episode, I welcome Lucas Zellers! Lucas is the podcast host and creator of "Making a Monster," and the writer and creator behind Scintillla Studio. He shares his unique perspective on art through the lens of role-playing games, and how the monsters his guests explain on his podcast share powerful truths about life. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is the logo of Lucas' "Making a Monster" podcast!)
 
Get in touch with Lucas Zellers: https://scintilla.studio/
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 47 - Lucas Zellers
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey. And I am so excited to be interviewing today, Lucas Zellers. He is the host of the Making a Monster podcast, as well as a writer Scintilla Studio, and I am so excited for him to be here because he brings a really unique perspective on art. And I cannot wait to share his stories and find out so much more about all the different ways that you've dabbled in art, Lucas. So thank you so much for being here today.
[00:01:04] Lucas Zellers: Well, it's my pleasure, Lindsey. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And I would love if you would just share a little bit about your background, maybe how you got involved in art and, and then started writing and hosting this podcast. I'd just love to hear more.
[00:01:20] Lucas Zellers: Sure. Yeah. So my journey as an artist is-- I always like to tell people that I'm a, I'm a chronic generalist. I started as a musician and became a writer by training and dabbled a lot in 2D design and illustration and sketching.  I spent a long time in stage acting as well. So between that, a little voice acting, a little podcasting, competitive public speaking and poetry, and oral interpretation like that. Just about every way you can use your voice for fun or profit, I've done. And most recently, all of that has sort of coalesced into the-- I guess what I'd call the 2020 expression of Lucas's artistic journey-- with the Making a Monster podcast.
[00:02:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Okay. So it's all come together. So you share with us about you're Making a Monster podcast, if you don't mind.
[00:02:12] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. And that's, yeah, it's not terribly specific. The Making a Monster is a podcast I started. It's my quarantine project. And it's one of those things that has taken on more of a life than I ever thought it would. So the show looks at tabletop role-playing games, which is a whole section of art and entertainment that might, might stand out quite a bit from the, from the other guests that you've had on the show. But I think it brings together a lot of what art is and does, and how, how art intersects with people. My angle on that was, I wanted to make that, that world accessible to people who aren't interested in the hobby, especially people who wouldn't necessarily have watched "Star Wars" or " Lord of the Rings," or be at all interested in that kind of sword and sorcery genre of fantasy. So I looked at it one monster at a time.
[00:03:07] I'm able to get ahold of people who do design work, sort of the backend and mechanical design for games like that. And I asked them about a monster of their choice. I never tell them which monster to bring on, and I rarely know what monster they're going to choose until we get on to record. And then we pick it apart. So I want to know what this monster is whether it's like a kind of a Hydra, or I think a good example-- I had a, a 10 Story Robots on one episode. I've got an upcoming episode with a teleporting alien dog that's just there to cause havoc. So it really runs the gamut of everything that you might find in, in fiction and heroic fantasy and all that sort of thing, goes along with tabletop role-playing games. But when you strip out the setting of it and get through to the mechanics, you find something really interesting.
[00:03:56] And that is a whole field of literary analysis called monster studies, which looks at the way we have encoded culture into the things that we fear into the stories that we tell about the things that we don't know or should be afraid of. So that's what Making a Monster does is take a look at these monsters that really, you wouldn't think this holds up to academic scrutiny or kind of a deep moral analysis, but they always do. And that's the heart and soul of the show.
[00:04:26]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow, how fascinating. I mean, I love it. I have not dabbled too much in that particular world, but it's fascinating to me. And I mean, I grew up watching "Star Wars," and "Lord of the Rings," and all those good things. So I definitely have an appreciation for it, but I haven't done the gaming aspect of it. So this is so interesting. So, okay. So I'm just so curious. I was really intrigued by the idea that makes complete sense, thinking about it in terms of, you know, the psychology sort of behind it, but yeah, are there any particular examples that stand out as when you kind of dove deeper you, you recognized something unique?
[00:05:09] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. Probably the best example or, or I think the moment I knew it was going to be more than just sort of a "chill, we happen to have the same hobby" kind of podcast was when I started talking to someone about Dagon and I should, I should preface this conversation by saying that we're going to get into kind of the deep lore. And there's, there's a lot that might not tie this to the average listener, but what I hope, what I hope to kind of bring out of this all is that Dungeons and Dragons and tabletop role-playing games are kind of a new home for art and artistic expression. I believe that art needs an audience and that the best audience is often other artists.
[00:05:54] So games like this tend to gather artists together at the table, artists of all different stripes, people who value a wide variety of different ways of expressing themselves and being together at the table. And when you put them all together, they tend to do some really interesting things because we get some of that reward. Some of that immediate feedback that you would have from an audience, it's the same thing that's embodied and applause, this, this sort of give and take of improv theater and fine arts and visual arts or artistic design and storytelling. And I knew all of that going in, but the thing that, that made me realize there was this other dimension to it of truth and the way that we tell it to each other, it was when I started interviewing a guest about Dagon.
[00:06:38] So Dagon, the way he wrote it was a sort of demon prince of one of the many, many layers of hell in the certain setting of this game that we were playing. And I thought that was enough. But it had come to that game as so many things due from the works of HP Lovecraft, who's notorious for having invented the genre of cosmic horror, and a lot of great work is being done in that. And it's becoming more and more mainstream. It was a primary feature of " Stranger Things." Several shows on Netflix, "Lovecraft Country" on HBO-- a lot of people are playing in this space and bringing Lovecraft's work into, to new and better ways of looking at truth and literature and design.
[00:07:20] And I thought that was it. We did this whole interview that connected Dungeons and Dragons to Lovecraft, and I was satisfied. And then I put it on the internet and the hive- mind of the internet, of course, showed me things that I had missed. And it turns out the Dagon is not just the name of a story that Lovecraft wrote. In fact, his first story that he had published, it's also the name of an ancient Palestinian deity. Now I have some work to do. Yeah. I had to find someone who was both interested in Dungeons and Dragons and was willing to talk to me, and also was able to sort of connect the dots on ancient Canaanite religion. And that Venn diagram is very slim. But I gotten connected to a friend and he was able to show me how Dagon had sort of appeared over and over again in time. He's in several places in the Bible, one of which most remarkably I think was in Jonah where he's never mentioned by name, but he is the god that was worshiped, we know from archeology, at the city of Nineveh.
[00:08:24]And that connects him back through a lot of various ways to the way in which Israel would look at their god is a God of order and Dagon then was the God of the Philistines and was therefore a God of chaos and he was tied to the sea. So it's interesting that you say "dove deeper," 'cause that was really what happened and that sort of battle of chaos against law where a monster would come up out of the sea and be defeated by, by law and order, and Shalom is a motif, is a theme, that's repeated all the way from Genesis to Revelation. So it's about as old as a story can be. And I just found it lying around in a tabletop role-playing game.
[00:09:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That story is fascinating.  It's so cool. I love it. I love that, you know, like you were saying, this motif, this theme has been around forever. Well, maybe not quite forever, but just so you know, for a really long, a long time and the idea of people taking the essence of it and bringing it into what's now a game. But it still has significance and history behind it. That's really interesting.
[00:09:35]Lucas Zellers:  Yeah. Even more so now, because we all have a handle on it. It took me forever and I, I don't think I would have engaged with Dagon and all of the themes and meanings that he has along with him that go back to some of the stories that account for the creation of the world. If I hadn't had this other sort of handle to hang on it or to, to hold it with-- if I hadn't been introduced to the concept and the name in this other way. So, so that kind of work is happening all the time in Dungeons and Dragons and the tabletop role- playing space where people are really starting to think very strongly about what makes a villain and what makes a hero, and whether that should be how we should understand that. And whether our understanding of that should change from what it was in say 1974, when the game was introduced. So there's a lot of excellent work that's being done in terms of the way that we express truth to each other. And I think that's the, that's the province of really good art.
[00:10:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And you had mentioned, you said it in a really particular way, which I am now not recalling-- but I'm sure you will-- about, you know, one of the things that's been interesting to you is discovering the way that we tell truth to each other or something along those lines that I get that kind of thing. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd love to learn a little bit more about what you mean by that, because I think that's a really interesting concept.
[00:11:01] Lucas Zellers: Sure. I think one of the ways in which this sort of taught me about truth and the way we tell it to each other was the interview that I released as the very first episode. So I did a batch of them. I did about six interviews before I launched the podcast because I wanted to make sure it would work. It wasn't the first interview I recorded, but it was the first one I released. It was about a game called "Jiangshi: Blood in the Banquet Hall," which was a remarkable little game that went through the, the Kickstarter. It was launched on Kickstarter where so many board games and role-playing games are these days. It's a game that was written by a team of American immigrants. And it focused on-- the, the setting of it is in 1920s, Chinatown, which I think was in San Francisco. And there are several other immigrant communities represented in the game as well.
[00:11:51] The titular monster, the Jiangshi, is a Chinese hopping vampire. And you'll find the aversion of the zombie in just about every culture across the world. A zombie or a vampire, we've been telling that same story to each other in many, many different ways. But this one is, it's about, so in this part, telling a vampire will feed, not on a person's blood directly, but on a person's life force, right? Or what the designer called chi, soul, if you will, being able to draw that directly out of them. And the, that story and the setting and the way the mechanics of the game work all work together to represent that drain as a drain of identity or cultural heritage or memory. So that this monster is taking all of those things out of you until you become sort of a gray featureless personality- less person that is in fact also as Jiangshi. And it's a great way of talking about cultural eraser. A lot of the things that were happening in sort of the, the San Francisco Chinatown phenomenon in the 1920s were represented really, really well by the work that she was doing. And I don't think I would ever be able to represent well in conversation, the experience of a Chinese American immigrant in 1920s, or even the experience of the descendant of a Chinese American immigrant in 2020. But I can say too, but we could play this game together. And I might ask, is racism a zombie though? And you would know exactly what I was talking about.
[00:13:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So the, kind of the idea of people expressing truth and their own experience, their own truth through a game, which provokes this conversation. And so that's what is so cool about all of these experiences and these people that you're interacting with it sounds like. Did I get that about right, yeah?
[00:13:59] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, and art picks up where words leave off many times, where or sort of in a loop with them. I think you, you'd be able to speak to this as well that dance expresses emotion in ways that other art forms can't. So when you go through this experience of playing Jiangshi, these truths stick in a way that they wouldn't if you had encountered them in any other way. It's why I remember Dagon fondly, not just as sort of an artifact in a museum, but as something that's a part of my personal experience and growth as a human being who understands the other human beings in the world. The same version, if I'd been able to play that game, you know, it becomes a part of my own experience becomes richer in my memory and imagination than it ever otherwise would have been.
[00:14:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And one of the things that I think is so amazing about art is that it can open up conversations that would otherwise be very difficult to have. But when these themes and these issues are expressed through art, sometimes that's a gentler way of opening up these conversations that should be happening, but are, are difficult, you know, rightly so. And so I think that that's just such a cool avenue for just starting the conversation that that should take place. Yeah. So cool. Well, I love that. And, okay, so obviously I need to listen to your podcasts because it sounds fascinating. I'm just so intrigued.
[00:15:29]Lucas Zellers: I spend quite a bit of crunch time on it or what the gamers will call crunch. So there's, there's a, there's a big portion of this that's of the podcast-- it's not gonna make sense unless you've played this game or that game. And I hope that that's not an obstacle to you, partly because I think that's another way of coding truth. So, you know, the, the level of like assigning a numerical value to the thing that this monster is, or does is an art form all unto itself. So that is a part of it, but don't let it scare you. And also if you're not playing these games, it's not what it was in 1974 or 1985 or 1999. It has a very different identity than it ever has. I think it's for more people than it ever was. I think it's smarter than it ever was. And I think it's way more beautiful than it ever was. So my hope is that while you're listening to the podcast, any sort of preconceptions that you have about role-playing games and the people who play them, you'll be able to sort of leave those at the door and discover something new.
[00:16:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I like that. Very good. Very good. Well, I'd also love to explore your writing a little bit, because I know that you also do that. So do you mind sharing a little bit about your experience writing and maybe what you write about?
[00:16:44] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, I'd be happy to. So Making a Monster is one of several projects that I've launched through Scintilla Studio. It's kind of my incubator. I, I built it so that I don't have to set up a separate website for everything I want to try. For a while there, I was a blogger when I thought that was still kind of the, be all end all of internet discourse. In 2018, I, I put out an album, just an EP of four songs that I recorded with some friends, all originals, which was a fascinating experience. And I do little things like that all the time. And I needed to have a place for them. So they all kind of live on scintilla.studio, Making a Monster being kind of the newest project. But the thing that ties them together is, is something else that, that sort of became obvious when I was doing the podcast. I've learned enough about that field of literary analysis called monster studies to know that one of them, the basic assumptions of that is that the monster's body is a cultural body.
[00:17:42] In other words, the monster is a product of the culture that tells it, it carries with it, all of the, the values and associations that that culture has. It's why Godzilla happened in Japan. Or, or why the jackalope happened in America on the frontier or, or John Bunyan or, or the Oz stories that are sort of uniquely American fantasy. I, I believe that that language of an ecosystem of idea and, and culture where, where stories and arts are, are kind of a species that evolve and change over time, and fit the ecosystem that they grew up in. I think that applies to creativity as well. So the kind of conceit of Scintilla that kinda pins all those ideas together is that creativity is an ecosystem. You have to build a habitat for it. Find, fill a place in your life, both your physical space and your routine  for that art to live. And then you have to give it the resources that it requires, whether that's time or energy or consumables, or just attention. And then you have to protect it from poachers because there are things that are going to come into that creative ecosystem that have a right to be there. You have to make food and raise your household and sometimes take a shower. Like there are things that have a claim on those resources, but there are also things that don't, and you need to cut them out. You need to be serious with yourself about what you're allowing to grow in this sort of creative ecosystem.
[00:19:15]So step three of four then is to kind of push the snowball. I think art for most people is, not like you said, this sort of one-off thing where you might experience it as the recital or the show or the finished piece where behind that is just thousands and thousands of hours of unfinished recitals and failures and attempts and sketches. So art is not the kind of thing that you do, and then you are done. It's the kind of thing that you push and make incremental progress as if you're pushing a snowball. So you build on your past successes and experience and then finally recycle. Because I believe that's important to every ecosystem, but I don't think art is ever wasted. If you finish a project and it is not as successful as you would have liked it to be or it didn't achieve the goal that you thought, it's never wasted effort. Because all of that comes back to you. It's an expression of who you are or who you were at the time, if nothing else. So a lot of the projects that are on Scintilla are things that I might never revisit or that didn't grow in the way that I hoped they would.
[00:20:21]But they all became the compost in which I'm growing other art, the same as all of these stories that we've inherited over time, the rich loam of storytellers before us sort of laid down by time and culture that, that proceeded us in the way that Dagon did. So, yeah. Scintilla is kind of this meditation on the way art is done by the common man and sort of a handbook for the way you can do it in a way that's fulfilling and sustainable.
[00:20:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. And I just really appreciated your description. I think it's so important, you know, as an artist, to not trash all your previous attempts at things, even though you might look back and cringe sometimes. I mean, we all do that, of course, but I love what you were saying about like, but  it was your best at the time and, and people, and we grow and we change and we learn and we, we evolve, but it's not bad. It's just like you said. And even if you really think it was garbage, like you said, that's still compost for future things to grow. I love that. Oh my goodness. I'm going to definitely adapt that, and you know, use that with my students when I teach them the idea that nothing is ever wasted.
[00:21:41] Lucas Zellers: It's so freeing. You look back at pictures of yourself and you cringe. And I, I have a lot of charity for my past self and I wish other people would too, ' cause it's who you were and it, it also gives you this kind of beautiful motivation to be the best you can be right now. And if you're making art in that way, you never have to be ashamed of it.
[00:22:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's beautiful. I talk with my students sometimes, and just in general, with people about, you know, your job is to do your best every day, but your best looks different every day. So, you know, some days it's when things are tough, it's getting out of bed and taking a shower. And that was your best for the day. And that's okay, you know. And other days you're going to have these bursts of creativity and the energy. And so your best of the day might be creating this fantastic painting, but that's not, you know, necessarily even realistic for every day. So it's just do your best every day. And then, give yourself the grace that not every day will look the same, I guess.
[00:22:44] Lucas Zellers: Maybe a more typical example is that you've caught me on what I think of as a good voice day. Like my voice sounds good right now. It's, it's early afternoon on a Saturday and I like the way my voice sounds. That's not always true. Certain days, some days it's a raspy broken down tenor that I'm kind of sad to be carrying around, but that's particularly the voice, which is so sensitive to the way you treat every aspect of your body. It really reflects who you are at the time. Yeah. To know that. And then watch your voice change day by day and hour. It sort of helps you realize that you're not just, you know, one person and you're not finished. And just because you weren't good now or then doesn't mean that you're not good now. \
[00:23:29]Lindsey Dinneen:  I love that. Yes. Perfect perspective. Okay. So good. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's so encouraging and I think that's so encouraging for artists who might be struggling, you know, some days and to realizing, to give themselves grace and, and it's, it's okay.
[00:23:48] Lucas Zellers: Because every voice is valuable and no voice deserves to be lost. And I hope that by giving people a way of eliminating that divide between themselves and an artist, that more voices will grow and that people will be more charitable to themselves and, you know, not paint over their own paintings or slash their canvas or, or whatever.
[00:24:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I had a professor in college who used to say that you were allowed to throw your pointe shoes in the trash every day, as long as the next day you would come back, pick them out and  I liked that. Yeah. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of that. I just love your perspective on art and the way that you're sharing it in such a unique way. So thank you for all of that. Thank you for just being that kind of blessing to the world.  I really like what you're doing and I value it. Thank you.
[00:24:42] Lucas Zellers: Thank you for saying so, and thank you for taking a chance on the D&D guy on this particular podcast.
[00:24:47]Lindsey Dinneen: No, of course, like I was sharing with you before the show, I just love art in general. So I'm happy to talk about it in any new way or anyway, anytime. Well, so if our listeners are interested in connecting with you, listening to your podcasts, reading some of your work, is there a way for them to do that?
[00:25:09] Lucas Zellers: Absolutely. Best place to go is to my website. It's scintilla.studio. That's S C I N T I L L A.studio. If you're looking for the podcast, you can tack on "slash monster" to the end or you can search for Making a Monster, literally, wherever you get your podcasts. I think I'm on 20 platforms and counting. Most recent addition was Pandora and I was very proud to be on Pandora. So I'm everywhere you want to be.
[00:25:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay, fantastic. Well, we will definitely be doing that. And if it's okay with you, I ask the same three questions to all of my guests. Are you up for that?
[00:25:48] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:25:57] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. So for a while, I tried to come up with, with my own definition of this and I was sort of laboring under the impression that a definition that I hadn't written wasn't authentic. But I found one that I really liked. Elaine de Baton wrote this in his book," The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work." He said, "art is anything that points our thoughts in important yet neglected directions."
[00:26:21]Lindsey Dinneen: All right. I love that. Never heard anything quite like that. Thank you for sharing that quote, that fantastic.
[00:26:30]Lucas Zellers:  It's incredibly useful to me because it doesn't say what art is, so much as what art does. And I think that's a more important way of defining it.
[00:26:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Perfect. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:26:49] Lucas Zellers: If we use the same definition, then the role of an artist is to tell us what to think about. And I think my experience with monsters and the study of them and sort of the practical use of monster theory is that art gives us a way of saying things that we couldn't say, or feeling things that we couldn't feel or experiencing things that we had no other way to experience.
[00:27:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or just the inspiration for it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out and doesn't provide context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide for themselves.
[00:27:54]Lucas Zellers:  Yeah, it's a great question. And I think the answer is frustratingly the same as the answer is always, it depends. I want there to be art that does not hold my hand, but demands of me the attention and intensity to discover its meaning. But for the most part, I think that art should be inclusive of context at least because of the art that I'm trying to make. So a huge portion of what makes my podcast work. And the reason that I have it is that I have to go back and pick up the scattered pieces of context that are left like a trail of breadcrumbs through time by given pieces of art, by given stories that have traveled across out of their own context and into others and out of their own time and into new ones. And that investigative process is incredibly rewarding. I think there's a lot of risk when you don't make that stuff obvious to people, 'cause then you have to have someone like me come back and pick up the pieces and lay them out for you and show you sort of the journey of Dagon over time or the identity of a Jiangshi. And that's a different kind of art. Like if I have to show you that alongside the actual artistic experience, those are two different things. So it depends, but for the most part and for the art that I want to make, I think it should be inclusive.
[00:29:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Good. Perfect answer. Not that there's a wrong answer. I think it's all subjective, but yeah, but I really like that answer.
[00:29:34] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. It's one of those dilemmas that you've set up that it's kind of a false dilemma in that these two are not mutually exclusive  nor is there a right answer between them.
[00:29:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly, exactly. And the whole idea behind the question is just to see what people think. So, and you're right. They're not mutually exclusive, but it's, it's fun to hear different perspectives on that 'cause, you know, just like art, there are lots of opinions as to where context is really important and where it's not needed. And I like your idea of you want some art to be demanding of you, that you you really explore it and you think about it for yourself. So yeah, I really liked your answer. That was great. Well, thank you so very much for being here today, Lucas. I just really appreciate your time and your sharing your stories, and I'm excited to check out your podcast. I highly recommend that anyone listening to this episode does so too, and yeah, just, just thanks again. I really appreciate it. And if anyone is interested in sharing this episode with a friend or two, of course, I would love that. And thank you and have the most amazing day.
[00:30:54]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:31:04]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.