Artfully Told

Episode 045 - Christina Stanton

In today's episode, I welcome Christina Stanton! Christina is an award-winning author, professional singer, and licensed New York City tour guide. She shares her incredibly powerful story of how watching a musical was the catalyst to start healing after experiencing the 9/11 attacks firsthand changed her life forever. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is the cover of Christina's book about her experience on 9/11 and its aftermath.)
 
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Episode 45 - Christina Stanton
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. 
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host post Lindsey, and I am so excited to introduce as my guest today, Christina Stanton. She is a licensed New York City tour guide, the owner of a nonprofit, and the author of a book about 9/11. And currently she's also working on a book about her experiences as a tour guide. And I am so very thrilled to have you here today. Thank you for being here, Christina.
[00:01:00] Christina Stanton: Hey, good morning!
[00:01:03]Lindsey Dinneen: And I would love if you would just share a little bit maybe about your background and how you got started into all the cool things that you're doing, if you don't mind sharing a little bit.
[00:01:15] Christina Stanton: So I'm from Tallahassee, Florida, and born and raised. And I moved to New York city when I was 23 in 1993. So that tells you how old I am, but I moved there to be an actress. And I got a degree in music. I was a singer and my voice really fit fast on like the Broadway stage. And so I moved to New York to try my luck in becoming a Broadway actress and I loved it from the get-go. Just, I love the, the artistic community. I loved fellow actors. I love the whole process of auditioning and rehearsing and performing, and I love New York City. So it was such a great fit for me. I think actually, if I weren't a performer, I would have never moved to New York City and I would've, I would have missed out because that place is pretty much perfect from me and my, and my temperament and my personality.
[00:02:06] So moved there, 1993, and I did that for about 10 years. And after I got married in 2000, actually I started kind of transitioning out of that and exploring some other parts of myself, which was-- I was exploring my faith, to tell you the truth. And I, we, we got very very involved in a house of worship. I also became a licensed New York City tour guide and I, I did that actually in 1995 kind of as a-- to help pay the bills, right? Between acting gigs, which is what we all do up there, right? So I decided I'm a New York City tour guide. And I ended up, when I was transitioning out of acting, becoming top heavy in that industry, because I love tourism.
[00:02:50] And mainly it's because I'd fallen in love with New York. So I myself wanted to be kinda like roll out the red carpet for tourists in a way that I felt like when I moved up to New York, because I was still seeing New York as a tourist myself since I wasn't born and raised there. And so I still do that to this day and still love it. And I kind of went from performing to seeing every show and concert that I could. And I've, I think I've seen up to 500 shows and live theater events in New York City ever since I moved there. So I'm a big aficionado of, of live theater. And I spend a lot of time going to see shows.
[00:03:32] So yeah, that's, that's kind of me, my husband and I live in the financial district and we've lived in the same apartment for 20 years, which is kind of unheard of in the city. And yeah, we just, we just enjoy our lives and just kind of do our thing. And I have a lot of friends and yeah, the, the pandemic was a blip on the screen and that's what I'm hoping it will be is-- it's, it's changed us all. It's, it's been awful, but I'm hoping that, you know, soon there's a light at the end of the tunnel that we can all just kind of put this behind us, and, and go back to, to our lives. But I have to say, I think probably everybody noticed the, the lack of, of art or maybe they have a new appreciation for art because it was so lacking this past year. So I bet, I bet a lot of people have been thinking about the role art plays in their lives because we were so challenged to get that in our daily lives, you know, this past year in the pandemic. So it's taken on definitely a new, a new meaning.
[00:04:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that it's, it's so interesting how, how much art plays a daily role in our lives. And sometimes it kind of goes unnoticed a little bit. We, we don't think about the fact that, you know, everything that we're surrounded by was designed by artists, right? I mean, even a piece of furniture was designed by an artist. I mean, it's, that's that thought it's all art and it's so fun to kind of see those moments and realize, oh, yeah, our whole world is art. I love it.
[00:05:03] Christina Stanton: It really is. So I guess we've had to find it in different ways and this past year, but I, I, myself am, am excited about seeing live theater again, even though, I mean, I love seeing "Hamilton" and, and "The Prom" and other things that, that were available to us this past year, or just live theater is, is kind of my thing.
[00:05:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. There's nothing like it. I mean, it's fantastic that there are now very cool, you know, movie adaptations of musicals and things like that. But the thrill of being there and hearing the music and, "Oh man, I can't wait."
[00:05:37] Christina Stanton: Audience, you know, having people around you who appreciate art, like you do, it's almost like this, this built-in camaraderie, this built-in kind of community. You don't even know who's sitting next to you, but you have that in common. So it's very relational.
[00:05:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Christina, I know you have a really, really specific story that you had in mind as far as sharing with us about the impact that art has had on your life. I would love if you want to dive in.
[00:06:07] Christina Stanton: Sure, sure. Well, I have to back up a little bit because my story does revolve around 9/11 and I, I won't go too much into, let's say our firsthand account, I'll just-- highlights would, would be that essentially my husband and I lived right next to the World Trade Center complex during the, right before the attacks. And we actually just moved in July the seventh, but we live six blocks away from the World Trade Center complex. And I was very familiar with the Twin Towers and the Observatory and the buildings and the shops, mainly because I'm a tour guide. I would have been a tour guide and was taking tourists on walking tours around the World Trade Center comp complex for years, you know, before the attack.
[00:06:49] So I already had kind of my own relationship with with the complex as a tour guide. And that was double because we lived right next to it. So during the attacks, and we lived on the 24th floor and we lived so close to the buildings that when, when the second plane went in, we were so close that the shock waves from that plane going into that building actually blew us back into our apartment. We had this wonderful 300 square foot terrace that overlooked the complex. So literally it blew us back into our apartment, knocked us out on the floor. I talk more about that in my book, if it sounds so spectacular to hear, hear these things, but but yeah, so blew us back, yeah, knocked us out. My hearing's never been the same. It, it just, it really, really affected us. We had to evacuate our building and we sought refuge in nearby Battery Park. But as it turns out that area, it wasn't safe at all. When the Twin Towers came down, they covered us with the dust and debris and there was actually very thick smoke from the towers that threatened to fixate us.
[00:07:58] It was, it was a horrible, life-threatening, very scary morning, so to speak. We were evacuated by a boat to New Jersey in the largest boat evacuation in history. I'm not sure if you've heard of that, but, but all these people started pooling by the coastline because we all felt trapped down there in Battery Park and the Coast Guard issued a radio call saying, "Hey, if anybody owns a boat that can hold anybody, go onto the coastline, pick people up. And drop them off at different places. We've got to get people away from, from the destruction and the danger." So we were evacuated to New Jersey and essentially we didn't get back into our apartment until the next January. So at any rate, so it was this, it was this crazy --I mean, the story that I, you know, for us, it kind of 9/11 went on and on, right?
[00:08:52] So for instance, my husband lost a very good Clemson fraternity brother in the attacks and that put him in just a real depression. Our dog clung to life for weeks after that, because he, he was covered with the dust of the buildings. He was trying to lick himself clean. There was ground up glass in that dust, which shredded his insides. So we took him to the vet and literally clung to life for, for a while after that. So our dog was sick. We were homeless. My husband's friend had died and, you know, we just have, to tell the truth, we had PTSD. So  it just kind of went on it, you know, like I said, being homeless was its own trauma. We've never had that experience before. And so by the time like May of the next year rolled around, we were back in our apartment and we were kind of navigating, you know, life and the new normal. I still wasn't working because I'm in tourism and, you know, no tourists were coming because there were still worries about the attacks.
[00:09:57] The United States had entered Operation Enduring Freedom at war. So people were staying away. I was still out of work. My husband was still, we were still struggling, right? Even the next May. And so I had read about, you know, I love live theater, go to live theater all the time. I had read about my favorite show, one of my favorite shows it's called "On on the Island." A nonprofit called Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS was putting on a one day event of the show. It was two shows in one day, May the 12th, 2002. And it was the original cast from when it was on Broadway in 1990. And I was like, " I'm going, you know, I, I need to see live theater. It's my favorite show." I don't know if it's coming back to Broadway anytime soon. I need a break. I need a mental break. I need to get out of my head. I need to be around things that I love and remind me that there's good in the world because I was still struggling to think that, "wow. I felt like somebody had tried to kill me."
[00:10:59] My whole worldview was so shaken at that point. And so we went to see this, this show that was really a fundraiser is what it was. And it was a staged reading. There was no set or costumes or anything like that, but it was the original cast. I just wanted a mental break and it just really changed me seeing the show. It had a huge impact and effect on me. I mean it achieved what I wanted it to do, but in a bigger way than I even expected.
[00:11:29]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah, that is a tremendously powerful story. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, wow. So, you know, you said that it, it changed you. Was that kind of a catalyst for being able to, to move forward, so to speak?
[00:11:50] Christina Stanton: Well, it really was because, if you know, or if any of your listeners know anything about the show "Once on this Island," it's a very basic and simple tale of a peasant girl who falls in love with a guy outside of her class. And, it actually has a beautiful ending and it's, it's just a simple-- there's, there's no flying chandeliers or helicopters within the show. It's, it's just one simple set and it's just beautiful singing. And it's a sweet story set on a Caribbean Island, which makes you feel like you're transported far away. One of the main reasons why it was effective and healing me from, from that cesspool, that turmoil I was on at the time is because the lead girl is an actress, she's still performing now, named LaChanze. So LaChanze was one of these, you know, when I moved to New York, I was all into the theater scene and I knew who was starring on Broadway. And LaChanze was a major star, still is, but she was at, you know, the height and the early mid -nineties when I moved to New York.
[00:12:59] So everything was about LaChanze and she was, she was starring in it. And so I was a huge fan, already huge fan of hers, but unfortunately had a terrible story of 9/11. She was one of these people who got married a little later in life. She had a baby and she was pregnant with her second child during September 11th attacks and her husband died in 9/11. New husband had waited a long time to be married to him, I think. And he died. And one of the towers he actually was working for Cantor Fitzgerald, which was the company that lost the most people in 9/11. I think they lost 658 employees and Calvin Gooding was one of them. And I knew that the whole theater community knew that, that LaChanze, his husband died, leaving her pregnant with her second child.
[00:13:53] And, I remember, we all thought it was just horrifying, just awful. It's the worst circumstances because, you know what? The theater community is small and we all care about each other and it's, it's a real, it's a real community. So she had starred in this show and when it came out on Broadway and 1990, 1991, and she was starring again at this two- performance only show. It was a fundraiser in 2002. So I wanted to go and hear this. Love the music, love the show, but I wanted to see LaChanze, you know, I wanted to support her. It was my way of supporting her, but also I just kind of felt like, even though she doesn't know me, that in a way we kind of had somewhat of a shared experience-- I mean hers in such a bigger way than myself, I could never relate to the loss that she has suffered, but I definitely felt like my heart blood for her. And so I went to see her and, and against the other show and to watch those actors go through the show and try to get through it, because essentially there's some very sad moments in the show. They cried their way through it, which made the whole audience go crazy.
[00:15:06] Everybody there knew what had happened. Everybody there in the audience knew what had happened to LaChanze and her husband, because people who go to these kinds of fundraisers, it's kind of like an insider thing to do. You know what I'm saying? So it was really an audience filled with actors or like extreme theater lovers, and everyone knew what had happened. So literally people were on their feet the entire performance because everybody's heart was bleeding for LaChanze, bleeding for the city, bleeding for the actors who were on the verge of tears throughout the entire show. And it just created an electric atmosphere because everybody was in on it. Everybody knew what this was and everybody was upset. And also everybody was so encouraging , to the cast.
[00:15:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that sounds like an incredible experience and yeah, the comradery, like you were saying of sitting next to people who understand and have similar experiences or even just, they can be empathic with what's happening and the way that things are being portrayed. That sounds really like, you kind of said, sort of life-transforming. Wow.
[00:16:21]Christina Stanton: You knew you were seeing something special once in a lifetime, that this would never be repeated because of this very special circumstances. So everybody was just electric. And there was nobody in that theater that had a dry eye, nobody.  At the end, there was a standing ovation for 10 minutes. I am imagining how long the show at the end of the day took. And just because, you know, and people would be yelling, "you got this," or "we love you," as the actors would go down during the show, meaning they would start crying, then people would be screaming. I mean, you never hear that during a normal performance. You don't, you don't hear people say, " we love you," you know, so this isn't a spectator.  But people really felt honestly with them and instead of, let's say us being entertained or taken away from our lives for a moment, we were literally with them, journeying with them too, to make it through, right? But also, because there's a lot of sad moments. Whenever there was a very poignant line in a song, everybody would be crying. We'd be crying because it took on a whole different meaning in the context of you know, the nation just, just had the worst terrorism on American soil, you know apart from Pearl Harbor.
[00:17:44] I remember there was one point, I was crying so hard. My husband was to the left of me. I remember there was a guy, some random guy to the right of me. He was freaking out a little bit because I was crying so hard. I mean, everybody was crying, but I, I had another level to it and he was looking at me like, are you going to survive this show, those releases, you know, just have like it was just one of the few times that I broke down because I'm not much, I'm not too much of a crier. I don't wear my heart on my sleeve all the time, but I was really breaking down because it was, it was a release, you know, it was this shared communal experience of mourning at the show, and it just really caused me to break down and, and there was something very comforting being in the midst of these beautiful people in this beautiful show. And it was like we were collectively mourning and it was just,  it was a game changer for me.  It was something I needed and I kinda needed to have that breakdown. And, you know, I felt different after I left that show, I felt that life is going to go on. My worldview doesn't need to completely change because of the attacks, but there's a lot of love and a lot of support and a lot of care in this world from a lot of people.
[00:19:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is a perfect example of the power of art and the way that it, it doesn't just transform or, or work in the lives of those who are performing the art or doing the art. It can literally change somebody's life through an experience in just watching it or participating in some way, reading it, whatever. That is amazing. The power of the arts to heal and to inspire and to provoke is, I mean, I don't think I've heard a better example of that in my life because that's just perfect. Yeah. Wow. Well, goodness. Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, I'm so glad that you were able to have that experience and all of those people were able to have that, like you said, once in a lifetime experience, that's transformative.
[00:19:57] Christina Stanton: Yeah. I think I said earlier that I think I've seen up to about 500 different live theater events and there's three or four that stick out, that was super special and never will be repeated. And I'm so glad I went. And, that's definitely at the top and I've often wanted to tell LaChanze that how much that meant to me and I did a little article about it and it has made the rounds and I'm glad. I'm just hoping that maybe she'll stumble on it and, and realize that it did it, did people good to see that? I know that was hard to go through. It did a lot of good, I have seen her perform since then. And I've seen "Once on this Island" again, it actually came to Broadway again in 2017 and I saw two performances of that and I still loved it for sure. But nothing will top that particular night.
[00:20:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course that well, and kudos to you also for, for sharing that experience too, and encouraging the \actors involved because I'm sure you've experienced this too sometimes-- you're not quite sure how much what you do might matter, or that it does matter to other people as well. And so I think that's really special that you were able to share that experience and say, you know, essentially "thank you" because we acknowledged that that was hard, but thank you. So, yeah. Okay. So then, you know, since then, you've obviously also written and published a book about your experience, how was it writing that? I mean, that must have been just-- digging through all those memories.
[00:21:39]Christina Stanton:  It was hard to plow through and relive those things until I-- this is ironic-- and so I caught COVID. We're almost exactly a year ago. I believe I caught COVID on March 14th in New York City and it almost killed me. As a matter of fact, I was hospitalized twice. It was, it was bad. And I wrote a book about that too. So I'm guessing there that there's clearly a theme going on that writing is cathartic for me and helps me to process, but I did, it was painful to write about 9/11. But I had a a real drive and motivation to write about it because, you know, there's been like over 700 books written about 9/11, but a lot of them, when I was going down the list, I've read most of them. So a lot of them are terrorist or terrorism. Or maybe about the World Trade Center complex and the Twin Towers, or maybe the planes.
[00:22:31] And certainly those are, those are important stories to tell for sure. But I haven't heard many from a voice perspective of somebody who lived in the neighborhood and experienced it from from a resident's perspective of living through that and going back to the neighborhood and trying to resume and the new normal that it has had its own challenges. I'd seen articles about it. So I just thought to tell you truth that I wanted to add, add my voice to that. And it was a fresh perspective, so yeah, and also wanted to highlight what I learned personally through it, you know, but you know, the, the pre 9/11 was a different person than the post 9/11, and I can and I really drew on a lot of what I learned during the COVID time.  It really affected how I dealt with that tragedy and  what I learned through 9/11. So yeah, so the pre- pandemic was kind of the same as the post- pandemic because of what I had learned from 9/11.
[00:23:28] So I talk about just yeah, life lessons that I learned through it. And, you know, we, we were new in our marriage. I was, I think, 32 years old, 31 or, oh, I turned 32, September 22nd, which was, you know, just a few days after the attacks. But so we were, we were newly weds. We were, we were married only a year and a half. And so we were having such a hard time navigating a new marriage, but also, you know, seeing each other in that kind of extreme circumstance. And so by the time, you know, the "Once on this Island" rolled around the next May. We were still kind of locked in our own battle and our own internal battle that we were fighting. And you know, we emerged from that much stronger and that's one of the, the good aspects to come out of 9/11 for us. But yeah, so wasn't easy writing that book, but  it was cathartic and, and I'm kinda glad that I get, again, that perspective, because it was a story that wasn't out there, so, yeah.
[00:24:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then now you're writing another book, but I hear this one is going to be a little bit of a different theme.
[00:24:38] Christina Stanton: No more. We're done with this. Yeah. So I've been a tour guide for so many years, just when you're dealing with tourist and large groups and groups of all demographics and age ranges. And just New York being New York, lots of crazy stuff has happened. And I have one of these people that have this, this memory. I remember everything. And if you're-- I'm a freelancer, if you freelance and let's say an incident happens, like the company really wants to know, what happened? So if, if like the tourists complain, they have a heads- up of what the situation happened? So, so I have incident reports.  Crazy things happen all the time. It's a crazy city, New York City. And so I wanted to protect myself by writing out, you know, my version of abundance. And so I barely have to write. It's pretty much already written. I was going to call it "A Collection of Incident Reports," but instead I think I'll do "Confessions of a New York City Guide." It's funny. It's funny shenanigans. It's a fun romp through New York City and crazy tour guiding stories.
[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. I love it. I cannot wait to read that. Well, and on that note if our listeners want to connect with you or purchase your books and things like that, is there a way for them to be able to do that?
[00:26:02] Christina Stanton: Yeah, my website is christinaraystanton.com.  And that's all my information  of the books and my upcoming book and articles I've written and, yeah.
[00:26:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Woo. So excited. Well, and then I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.
[00:26:23] Christina Stanton: Yeah.
[00:26:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Okay. So the first one is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:26:32]Christina Stanton: All right. So I think art helps us understand and appreciate and navigate life. I mean, it is life, but art bleeds over into every section of our lives and it just helps us through life. And you know, personally ,the most joy and love and sadness, the strongest emotions I feel, is through art. I'm pretty straight as an arrow and and other places in my life. But nothing makes me feel the human experience more than art does.
[00:27:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:27:18]Christina Stanton: It's to tell their truth, because we all are having such different experiences in this world that what you want is that somebody is expressing your experience somewhere in art, doing something. And you just want to connect with art that's expressing your particular experience that you're having on this planet and is sharing your human experience. And so I just think artists should be telling their truth of how they're viewing the world and their experience, because there's going to be people out there that can relate and want to relate and want that comradery, and wants somebody to quote unquote, "understand them," but I just feel like it's a shared experience. So it's a story that, that can be shared with several people.  We're not all having the same experience, but there are people out there who are having, you know, the same struggles, and the same highs and lows and joys. And they're looking at life in the world and God, and in the same way, do you want to connect  to art that is speaking to you personally.
[00:28:28]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yup. I love that perspective. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that -- inclusive, referring to an artist who puts their work out there and includes some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration behind it, something, so you kind of know a little bit about what the artist had in mind. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't share context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to interpret.
[00:29:06] Christina Stanton: Hm, actually I appreciate inclusive because I think I need a little help sometimes understanding the inspiration behind a piece of art, and I may not be able to relate to it or even agree with it. But I, I feel like I, I like to understand the artist's  intent and the message, and then I can, if I want to peel off and create my own narrative around it, I'll do that. But no, I like to, I want to know what their inspiration is. I want to know what sparked the piece of art.
[00:29:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Makes complete sense. Well, perfect Christina, thank you so very much for being my guest today. Your story is so fantastic and inspirational, and I'm so honored that you shared it with us and that you're sharing it with the world and, and expressing this moment that was transformative, and I just really appreciate you being here and sharing. So thank you so much and being on the show. I really appreciate it. And definitely if you're listening to this episode, please go check out her website, go buy those books and continue following her journey because obviously Christina is a marvelous person with lots of stories to share and somebody definitely to be inspired by because, gosh, you've been through some things and you're just coming out so strong and so resilient. And so just kudos to you and I can't wait to continue to see what you do and to follow your journey too. So thank you again so much. And thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:31:11] Do you have a story to share with us? We would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:31:20]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg  or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 044 - Harlem Lennox (Part 2)

In today's episode, I welcome Harlem Lennox again! Harlem is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative. This episode is part two of a two-part series because Harlem has so much insight to share! She shares about finding your unique voice, the musical that allowed her to envision herself as an actress, and her specific advice for young, aspiring artists. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Harlem herself!)
 
Get in touch with Harlem Lennox: www.harlemlennox.com 
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Episode 44 - Harlem Lennox (Part 2)
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.
[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. Just a quick reminder that this is part two of a two- part series with Harlem Lennox. I am so excited to continue this conversation with her today. So if you haven't already listened to part one, I would highly encourage you to go back, listen to last week's episode first, and then jump on back to this episode because Harlem is fantastic and has so many wonderful things to share. And without further ado, part two.
[00:01:00] So I'm curious. Are there any particular stories or experiences that you've had that have kind of stood out to you as just meaningful moments that you want to hold on to, as it relates to art?
[00:01:14]Harlem Lennox: Yes. So I've got  a bunch and I'm sorting through them in my head. One experience I can say with art that was incredibly meaningful for me was when I saw "The Wiz" for the first time, I did not see it in person. I actually saw it on the TV and it's basically-- I don't know if everybody is familiar with "The Wiz"-- also, please if you're not, see it. You have to. It is a retelling of" The Wizard of Oz," but it had an all black cast. And I remember watching it as a child and I had grown up in like-- of course I had my family and stuff like that-- but outside of that I had grown up around people and artists who were mostly white. And so it was one of those things where it was just confirmation that I could do this too. Like, this is available to me as well. And it's crazy that I just didn't connect the two because of the fact that a lot of the different artists that I was around, that I actually saw in everyday life didn't necessarily look like me. And so when I saw that and saw them dancing, heard the music, it was one of the most fascinating experiences I've ever had just because it was like, not only can I do this-- and it was crazy-- one of the characters that was in the movie actually looked like my mom.
[00:02:56] And so I was obsessed with that. It was Lena Horne and I was obsessed with her for a very long time, ' cause she looked like my mom and it was just-- I watched it over and over and over again. And it was one of those moments where I could not understand how they were able to accomplish that. It wasn't just the way they looked. It was the art itself. Like how are these people able to come together and do these dances? How long did they have to practice? And it gave me a huge admiration for the work that goes into art. I think a lot of people look at the art itself, but me, I also get really, really hung up on, how much work  did you have to put into doing all of those different things? And that's kind of where it started, where I'm watching these people. I'm like, "what did it take to pull off that number?" Like how many times did they have to practice to make it sound like that? And it kind of just snowballed from there where I would learn, you know, I'd go to the art museum and I'd see a Van Gogh.
[00:04:13] And I'm just like how many times he had to paint to get him to where he is today? And I think that's where the work that goes into goes into it, and the behind the scenes that happens, that's where that started when I watched "The Wiz," because I think before that I just looked at everything. It's like, "Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, that's so great. Like, Oh, wow. That's, that's a fascinating piece." But for some reason, I guess I connected with that movie, "The Wiz," on a whole 'nother level. And it just completely opened my mind to the fact that not only is this beautiful art, but there, there are a lot of little pieces that went into it. And I don't think I understood that until that moment.
[00:05:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my goodness. I love that. And I love that perspective because I think you're right. A lot of times we'll just enjoy the finished product and not-- I mean, maybe subconsciously we kind of have a slight awareness of what it takes to do something like that-- but I love that your brain was working in that way.  What did it take to get there? I think that is just so cool ' cause the behind- the- scenes are what-- you know, that's 99% of the time spent on any production. And then the 1% is the final product. And I love your perspective about the paintings and how many did it take? Oh, that's so cool.
[00:05:43]Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. I do that with dancers a lot. I have a friend of mine who is also a dancer. She's a ballerina. And because of the fact that I was with her through her journey and saw her progression, it was just, I think it makes art that much more amazing when you realize, and really, really like connect with how much went into that. Like, she didn't just start off, you know what is it? Is it called pointe? Like when you're on your... yes, she didn't just start off doing that. And then when she told me she was like, "You know, I'm used to it now, but at first it was so painful and it was like the most..." And I'm just like how, like, you must've loved it so much to actually be able to stick with it. See, and now that I'm talking about dancers, I want to ask you like a thousand questions about your dance career. But yeah, that's kind of when I look at art, it's, it's almost like I look at the painting and I see it for what it is, but I also look beyond the painting and that makes me fall in love with it a thousand times, the more I learn about it. So, yeah.
[00:06:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, it's a fantastic story. Yes. And you know, it's so funny, you were mentioning your friend and her experience with starting pointe and, you know, it's funny because I don't remember this-- I only remember my mom's retelling of this-- but apparently I just remember being so excited to finally--' cause you, you earn it right? You get to a place where you're strong enough that you can go on pointe, and it's a big deal. And I was so excited for my first class and apparently afterwards I came and I sort of just plopped down next to my mom and said, "I don't think I'll ever be a dancer." Not true. I obviously made a full career out of it, but it's so funny because you know, that first experience was really rough.
[00:07:38]Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. The passion you must've had to stick with it. That's so crazy.
[00:07:46] Lindsey Dinneen: I know, such a learning curve. And I know everybody has those moments. I'm sure even, you know, you've had those moments as an actor or something where you just, you get to a point where like, "Oh, this was frustrating." But then, you know, you love it. So you come back.
[00:08:00] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Definitely. I've definitely experienced that where it's like, no, this is horrible. I will never be, you know, whoever the famous person is that's doing really well at the particular time that I'm talking about this. Like I'll never be that person. And then you're just like, take a breath and get right back into it. Especially if you love it, just get right back into it. But yeah, I've definitely had those moments. My daughter is actually starting ballet. And she had a moment like that, because the person that she admires that kind of got her started on it was Misty Copeland. And because she's like, "Oh my gosh, she looks like me." And so I realized my whole family has had moments like that where it's like, "Oh my gosh, I could do it too, because this person looks like me." But I remember telling her when she was getting a little discouraged, she had a moment and I said, "You're not working to be Misty Copeland. You're working to be you. You're not supposed to be the next Misty Copeland. This is your story." And yeah, she could be your hero and stuff, but you're working to be the next you, and I cannot wait to see what that dancer does, because the person you're becoming is going to be so amazing in the story that you're going to have to tell. It's not going to be her story. It's going to be yours. So go ahead and have your moment. But remember you're not her. You're you. And so work to be that person. I cannot wait to see what you become, and the story that you have to tell when you get to that point and she was like, "Wait a minute. Somebody can make books about me."
[00:09:38]Lindsey Dinneen: That's beautiful. What a perfect response. I'm like sitting here going, "Okay. Don't tear up." It's just so beautiful. I was serious. I just, I love that. You're right. Yes. Look up to those that you admire in your art form. Look up to them, but be you. Yeah. And how special to be able to share that with her too, you know, and encourage her, even at a, at a young age of just, it's her own journey. And her own journey will be unique and it will be special and it will be hers. And that's perfect. That's beautiful.
[00:10:11] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. That's super important to me.  That's one of the other reasons why I wanted to start the podcast because I want people to realize that, you know, you don't have to be the next, whoever it is. Like we need you in particular, like your voice, your whatever it is that you're bringing to the art world is so important and so valuable. Like, yeah, you could admire all these different people and yes, they did great things, but they brought something beautiful to the art world that we never had before. And you're going to do the same thing. If you keep working hard and you know, doing what you need to do. And we need it, like we need you in particular. So your art, whatever it is you are bringing. And I really wish that people understood that, that goes along with the whole thing about we're not trying to take other people's place where we're just adding to the gumbo pot.  I am Creole. And so it's like, we're adding to the gumbo.
[00:11:17] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that.
[00:11:18]Harlem Lennox: The different spices and stuff like that and everything you act just makes it better. And so not everything, but most things, most things that you add to the gumbo pot just makes it better. And so it's like,  if you're dedicated, then you're gonna add something very special and very meaningful to the gumbo pot or the jambalaya or whatever it is. Like, we need you. So come on.
[00:11:41] Lindsey Dinneen: That illustration is the best. I love that. Perfect. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.
[00:11:53] Harlem Lennox: Yeah!
[00:11:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:12:00]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So to me, art can be just about anything. I don't like telling people like, "Oh, that painting -- that's not art. That will never be art." I look at art from a very broad sense where people will probably be like, "Well, then nothing is art if everything is art." But I look at, so for example, my daughter can make something, or my son, or my other son can make something, and I will look at it as art and I will seriously react to it the same way I would react to it if somebody showed me any piece of art.  I look at nature as a form of art. The way that each tree is beautifully unique. And I have an obsession with trees and the way each tree is beautifully unique. And the simple fact that there's all these different changes and stuff like that within the universe.
[00:13:07] And so, 'cause I was actually thinking to myself last night, like even after-- you know, this is so morbid, but even after we're all gone and maybe, you know, like the dinosaurs, humans are no longer on the earth or whatever-- like the world, the earth is still going to be making art.  I look at a lot of different things as art and I define art is anything that gives a person meaning. If you can look at it and feel something within yourself, within your soul deeply. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's a positive or negative feeling, if you can feel something and it makes you think, then I consider it as art. Did I answer that question?
[00:13:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfectly. That's exactly what I wanted, your own perspective. And I love that. Yeah, I think there's inspiration and art all around us. So I'm, I'm right there with you.  And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:14:11]Harlem Lennox: To be themselves and to be truthful about what it is that they are trying to convey, whatever it is, no matter how dark you might feel that it is, or no matter how light it is, because it just-- I feel like if you can feel something and you can get something, some type of meaning from whatever it is, then it is art. And so if you are making, whether it's a piece of music or painting, if you're dancing, whatever it is, if it has meaning, and it is true to you, then I think that is the response. That is the responsibility of an artist. I don't want an artist who tries to be the next whomever. I don't want an artist who, okay, what is everybody liking right now? Let me try to create that. And I understand that people got to do what they got to do to get where they're trying to go. And so maybe they start off that way because they're still learning. But when you get to a point where you're confident enough and brave enough to be able to produce your own work, your own truth, whatever is in your soul, then I definitely think that that people have a responsibility to bring themselves to the art world, because like I said, we need it. We don't need another Van Gogh. He's  here. He did his thing. Thank you Van. But I want to see another whomever it is: Brittany, Sam, you know, Godfrey, whoever. Bring me your art, bring me your truth. Or else it doesn't mean anything.
[00:15:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. Yes, I absolutely agree. I just, I don't have anything to say to that. I'm just like, yep, absolutely. So true. Perfect. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to someone who puts their art out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a title or show notes or the inspiration or something like that, just a little bit behind the scenes. Versus an artist who creates something, puts it out there and doesn't provide any context. So it's left entirely up to the viewer as to the interpretation.
[00:16:41]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So disclaimer, disclaimer. I hate it when people put art out there and don't tell people what the context is behind it. It's very frustrating because of the fact that I like to know the behind- the- scenes. And I like to know what that person was thinking and what inspired them. However, I definitely think that it should be both. I think that all of it, because I like the way that somebody can put something out and they know it's valuable and they know it's going to cause a reaction, but they want whatever reaction that comes from you to be natural. They want it to be something that comes from within you.
[00:17:31] I cannot remember the name of it and I actually tried to look it up, but I cannot remember the name of the artist, but I remember seeing the painting. It was at the Cincinnati art museum. I don't know if it's still there, but it was just like, it was a navy blue, almost like a navy blue background. And then it had these large streaks of just three different colors. And I think it was like red and orange, whatever, and it was abstract art and it, it drove me nuts because I'm looking at it and I'm feeling something crazy behind it. And I remember I went to one of the people that were there giving people tours and guiding people and stuff like that. And I had this very like visceral reaction to it. I'm like, "What is the point of that? Like, what is that?" And I couldn't understand why I was feeling what I was feeling. And she just looked at me like, "Oh, my gosh, you're doing exactly what he wanted you to do." And basically he said that she was saying that a lot of people have the same, like this very emotional reaction to it.
[00:18:39]Some people cried, some people like were angry about it, and it was apparently made during like right after World War II and people were feeling, you know, a lot of emotions and stuff like that. So anyway, so I want to have both. I want people to be able to make art and have a particular intention and be able to say, okay, look at this, like, this is what I'm trying to show you. This is why this is so valuable. But I also want people to be able to make art and allow people to come to their own conclusions and feel their own feelings, ' cause I think both are important even though it is extremely frustrating.
[00:19:22]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I was chuckling. When you were talking about your first statement, your opening statement. I share your opinion. I think that there should be room for both, obviously. But yes, I'm with you in that personally, I would always rather have some context to just, you know, just help me better understand it and appreciate it. Well, so for those who might want to kind of follow your journey, I know you've provided where to find your podcast already, but is there a way for us to connect with you, if you know, we could follow your journey, your acting and, and all of that?
[00:19:57]Harlem Lennox: Sure. Yeah. So you can again, go to my website, harlemlennox.com. I am also on Instagram. I do so much better on Instagram. And that's @harlemlennox, and you can follow me there. I'm actually working on making it better visually and coming up with some other stuff. So stay tuned for that. And then if anybody wants to talk to me or ask me questions or whatever, they can either do it there, or they can email me harlemlennox@harlemlennox.com. And then I'm also on Facebook even though, so my Instagram is actually linked to my Facebook.
[00:20:41]Lindsey Dinneen:  Perfect. And since you've had so much amazing life experience for yourself, and also you've now had the opportunity to interview so many cool artists and hear about their journeys-- I'm curious if you have just some advice for somebody who is starting out or who is maybe wanting to be an artist, feeling a little uncertain about following their path. Do you have any advice for that?
[00:21:08]Harlem Lennox: Yes. Number one, make sure that you find somebody who is doing what it is that you want to do and get some insight on what that life looks like. And so that you can make an informed decision. However, even though it seems very counterproductive, if it's something that you really want to do-- like I've had people tell me like, "Oh, you have three kids, but never heard of that." And I just say," I don't accept that. I don't accept that. I'm going to do it anyway." Thank you for the information so that I know what to expect, but if it's something that you really want do in any way, figure out a way to do it anyway. And then make sure that you are informed about the ins and outs of whatever profession that you're trying to go into, if you feel uncomfortable about something, definitely listen to that and try to figure out why. And then just keep going. Even when you get to a point where you feel like this is not working. I don't know what I'm doing. I can never get to where I'm trying to go. Just keep going, keep learning. It's a learning process. It's always going to be a learning process even to win. Even if you get to Bette Mettler status or, you know, James Earl Jones status,  you're still going to be forever learning. So continue to learn and just enjoy the journey. Don't don't think so much about the destination. Think about the journey. 'Cause that's, that's the best part to journey the struggles and all that good stuff. That's the best part.
[00:22:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you for that advice. That was fantastic. And thank you so much for being my guest, Harlem. This has been absolutely incredible and you are so inspirational and I am just smiling so big right now because this was fantastic. So thank you so much for being here today.
[00:23:11] Harlem Lennox: Thank you so much for having me!
[00:23:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, please do subscribe to Harlem's podcast and check out her work.  She is incredible. And the work that she's doing is so fantastic and important, so please do follow her. And again, thank you for listening and we will catch you next time.
[00:23:40] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:23:49]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique.  The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 043 - Harlem Lennox (Part 1)

In today's episode, I welcome Harlem Lennox! Harlem is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative. This episode is part one of a two-part series because Harlem has so much insight to share! She shares how her upbringing allowed her to experience art at an early age, and how a teacher encouraged her to try for bigger and bolder things in the arts. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Harlem's podcast cover image!) 
 
Get in touch with Harlem Lennox: www.harlemlennox.com 
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 43 - Harlem Lennox (Part 1)
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey there, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I just want to let you know that this episode is going to be a one of two. Harlem Lennox is absolutely amazing, and I am so excited that we were able to talk for an extended length of time, which means that I have the privilege of breaking this episode into two. So here's part one today. And part two will be available next week.
[00:00:59]Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today the brilliant Harlem Lennox. She is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative, and she is just magnificent. I've had an opportunity to get to know her a little bit and she's-- I'm just so excited that she's here. So thank you so much for joining us, Harlem.
[00:01:28] Harlem Lennox: Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be able to talk to you. Of course. And so I'm curious, do you mind sharing just a little bit about your background and you know, how you got interested in art and then.
[00:01:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, you, like you said, overall creative, so I'd just love to learn more about you.
[00:01:48]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So I actually come from a very creative family. I have musicians in my family. I have other actors in my family, writers, things like that. So it's kind of been just a part of my life. And then when I was younger, I was born in California, but I moved to San Francisco with my dad and I also lived in LA. So, we were always around some kind of art. My dad was very into art. He was the stereotypical San Franciscan who is vegetarian and totally into, you know, art and new age things and stuff like that. And so we definitely spent a lot of time at museums and cultural centers and stuff like that. And so, I just, I kind of grew up with art. I definitely always kind of dabbled, as I like to say, in different aspects of art, like throughout school and stuff like that.
[00:02:53] But I remember in particular, when I was in eighth grade, I was brand new to this school. It was my first year at this school and we had a play. And one of the teachers like just kind of looked at me because I volunteered to work the curtains. And she was like, "You know, you really should be up there. Like, you should be one of the characters. You should be on stage, like acting and doing stuff or whatever. You're such an animated person." And so when I left that school to go to high school, I was in drama and in theater classes and stuff like that, took them all four years.
[00:03:31] And it just snowballed from there. I couldn't stop doing it. I fell in love with it. It was a huge outlet for me, especially because when me and my father moved to Cincinnati, he became heavily into religion. And so we went from being these artistic Franciscans and, you know, involved in film and stuff-- like my dad was a DJ and, you know, in music-- and all of a sudden , we went from that to very, very strict and very demure and all that kind of stuff like that. And so being a part of theater and acting and writing and writing poetry and writing plays and stuff like that was my way of still having that connection. And still, also having that connection with my family out in California, because of course living in Cincinnati, I didn't get a chance to see them all the time. And so it was a way of me feeling connected to them as well. So yeah, it's just been a part of my life and a part of me growing up and all of that good stuff.
[00:04:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's so cool. Your, you know, your background of getting to grow up just among art or a mid start. I don't know, but anyway, that's really cool. And I just think what a, what a heritage, you know, to be able to have come from a family that does appreciate art and, and it was just a part of your life. That's really neat. And I, I love somebody recognized that your passion and your expression was underutilized, you know, and said, "Hey, you should really be up there. How cool."
[00:05:12]Harlem Lennox:  I love teachers who are able to see things, no matter what it is, whether it's art, science, whatever, and be able to see something in somebody and be able to say like, "Hey, get up there, like, don't be scared. Get up there." And I've noticed a lot of people have those stories where teachers really encourage people to get out there and do what they're naturally supposed to be doing.
[00:05:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I had some teachers that said the right thing at the right time, when you were feeling down or discouraged about progress or whatever, and they just had the right thing to say. Teachers are the best. Now, are you currently still acting? I know you're podcasting and I'd love to hear more about that in a second, but are you still acting as well?
[00:05:58]Harlem Lennox: So I do a little bit of acting. It's mostly right now, me studying and trying to get better at it. I think because of COVID, it's been super slow as far as the acting. And so I'm trying to take this time to learn more. And even though that's really difficult, I was recently  on a Zoom acting thing. It was the one minute plays and it was being held over Zoom. And so it was so crazy. I'm so glad that they didn't tell us because it was actually viewed by people like in other countries and stuff like that. I was already very nervous because of course I'm not used to acting on Zoom. And so I was very happy that they didn't tell me that it was being viewed by so many different people, but that's pretty much the most I've been able to do since COVID started. So I'm just trying to utilize this time to learn more, read more, learn more about, you know, film and different things like the differences between the arts and stuff like that.
[00:07:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And it is a good time to kind of continue learning and growing on your own, and then hopefully things will start opening back up and we'll get back to our full artistic selves. But yeah, good for you for taking this time and still devoting yourself to, to continuing to learn and grow . Oh my goodness. Yeah. Kudos to you for that, that video opportunity. That does sound very intimidating. I'm so glad it went well, though.
[00:07:34]Harlem Lennox:  Yeah, the whole time I was so nervous. Oh, I was so nervous.  I'm used to being on stage. And you know, the great thing about being on stage is the lights are so bright that you barely see that. So it's kind of this nice little imaginary wall that you have to kind of keep you from being as nervous as you normally would be. But then if you're on screen, like you're looking at everybody, everybody's looking back at you. You're right there, front and center. It was scary, but it was awesome too.
[00:08:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Seeing reactions up close and personal and oh. That is what I do really like about being on stages, not being able to see the audience, which sounds terrible, but it just makes me less nervous, you know? I feel like I can concentrate better. I'll just put it that way.  So then really recently, actually, you started a podcast and I would love if you'd share just more about that.
[00:08:31]Harlem Lennox: So the podcast is called Harlem with a View and basically it talks to different creatives about their creative journey, different topics within the creative community. And, and basically creating community. I definitely want to be able to not only promote people and their art, but also be able to have connections with people. And I'm hoping that later on down the line, I'll actually be able to do some educational work for different actors and just artists in general, just because I think that sometimes not all creatives, that some creatives kind of either don't know how to, or forget about like the business aspect of it. And you know, the accounting and the taxes and all the stuff that we probably could care less. And so I want to be able to have an educational aspect to it as well, to help either people who have been in it and are still struggling, or people who are going into it and have no clue what they need to do as far as that's concerned.
[00:09:39] But I like to talk to creatives about the different things that they do, creatives of all genres about the different things that they do. And I noticed there are other podcasts that are like mine, but they kind of steer away from some of the harder subjects, like when it comes to race, when it comes to just heritage and different things that are going on within that community. I've also noticed that a lot of people, whether it's intentional or unintentional, they tend to Interview people from a very, very small demographic. And so I'm trying to expand that and give everybody an opportunity to tell their stories. And it has been a learning process because I am a black woman, but at the same time, my story is not the same as everybody else's story. And so it's like, I'm hearing so many different stories and people getting an opportunity to really, really add something to the creative world. And it is so exciting to see what is going on.
[00:10:52] And another reason why I wanted to start it was to also help kind of open the doors of different small, you know, communities of creatives to be able to open those doors. Like, hey, you know, we're doing awesome stuff over here too. Look at what we're doing! And kind of give people an opportunity to, to look at like what's going on in Cincinnati and the small community, our community in Cincinnati, and what's going on in Tennessee, Texas, and all these different places and kind of bring these people together and just consume art.
[00:11:29] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Well, and you know, I love it because obviously I have not the same concept for a podcast, but obviously complementary, I'll put it that way. And so I just love what you're doing and commend you for that work. And I, I totally agree with you. And sometimes it's, it's difficult, especially maybe when you're starting out, because you kind of gravitate towards people that you already know. And, but I agree, it keeps the circle pretty small, so it's nice to be able to start  branching out and getting to hear very different perspectives than your own. And so yeah. Good for you. That's, that's fantastic. Well, I'll just go ahead and dive right into that. So where can we listen to your podcast?
[00:12:14]Harlem Lennox: So I published my podcast through a site called Anchor. So it basically puts your podcast on many different platforms. So I'm on Spotify. I'm on Apple Podcast. I'm on Stitcher. I'm on a lot of different things, but then you can find more information about my podcast and actually listen to my podcast on my website, HarlemLennox.com and be able to find all the different things. So if you go to Anchor, you'll be able to also find all the different places or other places that it's posted.
[00:12:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. So now I'm curious, as you've been listening to people share their journeys and stories, has there been anything that really stood out to you that was surprising?.
[00:13:05] Harlem Lennox: One thing that I think was surprising is the fact that, so it's one of those things where it's like, you know  something to be true, but until you actually experience it, it's still a theory in a way. And so when you go on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, people tend to be pretty angry about certain things. And it's like, you're getting a snapshot of, of how they feel, and they're commenting on something very specific, but then when you hear their stories and you hear just what they've been through and stuff like that, there is the sense of not being angry necessarily. It's more so like, "I'm not trying to take your stuff. I just want to be included. I'm not trying to take over. I just want to be included." And this feeling of, "my voice is important too. Like I'm not trying to shut off your voice and my voice is important too."
[00:14:11] And I've always been the type of person that wanted to be more, like, open the door for everybody rather than have that sense of like, okay, well there's not room for everybody. So if you know, we're going to have this group of people come up, then obviously it means that we're shutting these people down. I've never been that person. And so being able to hear these stories and hear these people say like the, the thing that you thought, the theory that you had, was correct. We're not coming in and we're not trying to take over. We just want to tell our stories and be able to share our experience and let people see the real me. And even though it's one of those things where I already knew that within myself. And I already felt that within myself, being able to hear people actually come out and say like, we really do want to be a community.
[00:15:14]It was, was very eye-opening because of course, when you're on social media, most of the times you just get the anger and that's the sense that you get from reading some of the comments and, and stuff like that. Like, people are just tired and fed up of not being heard. And so being able to hear people say, like, "I just want you to see who I am, and I just want you to be able to like really experience me. And this is not, you know, what you see on TV, what you see in theater and, and different things like that, that doesn't tell the whole story." And it's been very humbling, you know, and it's like, I'm a part of these different marginalized communities and different things like that. But again, we're not all the same person. We don't all have the same feelings and thoughts. And so being able to experience that has been absolutely amazing.
[00:16:13] And then the other thing that has been absolutely amazing is to be able to connect with people who actually do have these extremely interesting stories. I'm somebody who not only is a creative, but I have an obsession with history and there are so many things that I just like-- of course I'm not supposed to know everything-- but there's so many things that I didn't know and understand. And I'm learning something every time I talk to all of these different people. And so hearing all of these different experiences and like, "Well, this is what actually happened." Or, you know, this is what I have been told, like some insight from within this community, like being able to get the 411 from the people who actually experienced it, like I've learned so much stuff, it's insane. And it's actually fueled my history buff self, because I've been now researching all these different things, like, hold on a second. I thought this, this is the way it went, but it actuality it might've gone this way. So it, it has been a huge learning experience, just all around. And I think it's also going to make me a better actor and a better writer because it helps me understand more about the world. And you definitely need that as an actor and as a writer.
[00:17:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. That is so powerful. I'm just sitting here listening and that is so cool. And I, and I agree with you. I think stories matter so much. I mean, having the context matters and like you said, sometimes it's easy to-- or I'm extrapolating from what you said, actually-- but sometimes, you know, you read something on social media and like you said, it just comes across as very fed up or done or whatever and frustrated. And that makes sense when you have the context of, like you said, "I just want to be included. I just want a seat at the table." And providing space for that, for somebody to share their stories and to tell their truth and to invite you into, because sometimes it's, it's just a matter of not knowing until you have that context. That's such a cool thing that you do and that you get to share with the world , and I think that's just incredibly, incredibly important. So thank you for doing that work, so to speak, but I know, I know for you, it's been great too, but, but thank you for that. That's fantastic what you're doing.
[00:18:49] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying so. I'm hoping that it has the same impact that it is. It has been, I'm hoping that it's as enriching for other people as it has been for me, 'cause it's just, it's so valuable and I'm hoping that other people are feeling that as well.
[00:19:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely.  As soon as I heard her say this, I have thought about this so much-- Michelle Obama talked about, she was talking about-- well, actually, I'm sorry, I don't remember the context-- but what she said was that "It's hard to hate up close." And I think that's such a profound thing that she said, because you're right. You, you won't, you shouldn't anyway, but you know what I mean? But, the closer you get to somebody and their story and their experience hopefully the human reaction is empathy, and, "Oh my goodness. I, I didn't realize that." So yeah, kudos to you.
[00:19:45] Harlem Lennox: Theater has-- just acting in general, I think even though other people do it and not everybody comes to the same conclusion-- I think that's one of the great things about theater, because like I said, when we moved to Cincinnati, my father became very conservative. He became very like-- 'cause I'm not really sure, 'cause there are people who are religious, who are not, you know what I'm saying-- like small minded. So I don't want to say super religious. It just became extremely, extremely, extremely conservative. And so I guess, for example, when it came to homosexuality, I was taught certain things. And from within the church, and it was crazy because I, I knew something wasn't right about it, especially growing up in California where you meet all kinds of different people and you're around all kinds of different people.
[00:20:39]And so it never really made sense to me, but when I was a part of theater and there are a lot of different people, you know. In theater that's where all the the weirdos go, where the rejects go. Like we all go to the theater and that's where we find our home and our common ground. And so me as a black woman going there and being feeling like I, I was seen and understood, and then being able to meet people from that community and being able to say like, "Oh my gosh, they're not anything like what I was told." Like, they're just, they're just normal people. And this is me being a kid having this experience. And so theater taught me to think outside the box and to see people as just like me, they're human beings with these beautiful stories that are just like everybody else. And so that was something I don't even know where I would be today. I guess in my thinking, if I didn't have that, if, if somebody else would've came into my life and been able to share that with me.
[00:21:54] And it also helped me, 'cause I'm glad I got that experience because my mom had come out to me. And so having that experience in theater and being able to be around those people-- like when my mom told me, she came out as bisexual. And so when, when my mom told me that, that that was something that she was going to, you know, she was going to live her best life. It was easy for me. And it was just like, okay. And she automatically thought because of the way I was being raised by my father, that I was going to, you know, feel a certain type of way about her. And I was like, "No, that's great. Like now I can actually talk to you about these things that I've been learning about in theater." I'm just like, "Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thank you." Like another adult to be like, I actually have a parent that I can have honest conversation about. And none of that I don't think would have ever happened if I didn't have the experience that I had with acting and with theater. So yeah, I'm hoping that other people also are able to learn to meet people where they are and see them up close in a way through my podcast and podcasts like yours as well.
[00:23:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  Theater is such a great place-- dance is similar too as well-- is it's just a great place to meet people from all different kinds of backgrounds and experiences and stories and to move in and to share life and to learn and grow and do better. Yeah. So that's really great that you had that experience.
[00:23:33]Quick reminder, Artfully Told listeners. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm so grateful for that. And quick reminder that we are going to do part two next week. So stay tuned and enjoy another wonderful session of inspiration from the amazing Harlem Lennox. And until then, we will catch you next time.
[00:24:01]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:24:12]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique.  The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 042 - Emily Moores

In today's episode, I welcome Emily Moores! Emily is an installation artist based out of Ohio. She creates largescale, original designs out of hand-cut paper to provide a joyful moment in time for her viewers to take everything in. She shares about why she doesn't feel the need to define art, how being fully present brings better perspective to an art interaction, and the importance of creating playful art. (Fun fact: the cover image is a photo of one of Emily Moores' art installations!) 
 
Get in touch with Emily Moores: www.emilymoores.com | www.instagram.com/emilymoores_art 
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Episode 42 - Emily Moores
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to introduce to you today, Emily Moores. She is an installation artist focusing on hand- cut paper, and thank you, Emily. So very much for being here and for sharing your stories about art.
[00:00:54] Emily Moores: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you would share just a little bit about exactly what being an installation artist means and what that process looks like, and also just sort of how you got involved. This is fascinating to me. I'm so excited to learn more.
[00:01:14]Emily Moores: So as you said, I'm an installation artist that focuses mainly using hand-cut paper. Over the past year, I've started using other things like fabric or lights in my artwork, but an installation is like an immersive sculpture. It's something that is made to fit a particular space. And if you move or transfer it to a new space, it adapts to that space. So it's not something-- like a sculpture stays the same, regardless of what room it's in, whereas the installation kind of fits into the space. So what I really love about installations are they, there's something that you have to live in the moment. It's not something that you can come back to when it's moved to another gallery. It's-- you have to be present for it when it's in this space at that particular time.
[00:02:05]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's amazing. And so how did you get started into that artistic endeavor in the first place? Or what kind of, what is your background, what it kind of prompted you that direction?
[00:02:18]Emily Moores: Well, I went to art school and I got a degree in painting. I took a few years off and I mostly stayed within drawing and painting. And then I went to the University of Cincinnati to get my master's degree in studio art. And it was while I was at that program that I started to take things-- I started to cut apart my drawings and break away from like a flat space. And so for my like final thesis for my master's project, I ended up building like a large scale installation in a stairwell. And so that kind of is where the starting point for me and how I built myself into a 3D space.
[00:03:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense. And how cool to go from, like you said, just cutting up your own artwork and realizing that it can transform into something completely different. Love that. I love that about art. And so, you know, growing up, were you always drawing and, and painting or whatever? I mean, like, have you always kind of been an artist or did that interest develop later?
[00:03:24]Emily Moores: I had always been-- I guess I had always been an artist. I was fortunate enough to have my parents signed me up for Saturday afternoon art classes when I was younger. And I was just never really good at anything else. And so I ended up only applying to go to art school and that was kind of the only vision I had for myself.
[00:03:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I think when you start growing up that way and it's just like, okay, well, this is the course of the natural next step. Yeah. So, okay. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the work that you do and maybe some different experiences that you've had. You had mentioned that it doesn't stay the same when it's from one gallery or space to another. And I'm kind of curious what you mean by that. Obviously I'm sure the space dictates quite a bit of, of how it's maybe laid out. Forgive me if I'm not using all the correct terminology.
[00:04:22]Emily Moores: It's, so basically like let's say, okay, so a couple of months ago there, I built an installation for ROY G BIV Gallery in Columbus, Ohio. And so I had two nooks in the gallery, and then I had a window space. But the nooks were like seven feet wide was one, and then I think the other one was like five feet wide. And so the way that I built the beams, the beams were built for that space. So if I were to, if somebody were to request that artwork again in a different space, I would have to kind of alter the beams to fit because they were like nailed into the wall. And then they were the support structure to hold the paper and the lights up. And so I would have to kind of refigure the wood and kind of cut it into different configurations so that it would fit into a corner because not every gallery is going to have like a seven foot wide nook.
[00:05:19]And so, and I think a lot of times too, when we think of like, how everything is documented in our lives, constantly with our phones. And  there's something that I really love about installations in that a lot of times, especially when they're larger, you can't get them all in one picture. You have to  move around from different vantage points. And also with the temporary feel of it, you know, you can't wait for it again. Like, it's something that you have to be there.  You have to move around the space in that moment.  I do love, and I feel really flattered, when people take pictures and post them on Instagram of my artwork, but I still love the idea that they have to physically move and walk around and that you can't basically take a picture and kind of hold onto it completely, you know?
[00:06:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think that's a really special thing about walking through installation art, and I haven't had as much opportunity as I would love to, but I think that those experiences have been the most memorable. I mean, even as you were talking, I was thinking about some of the various installation art I've gotten to witness and it is kind of a magical experience because you're-- you're right-- you can't capture it in one frame and one instant and that's special, cause you, you kind of have to explore or come back, you know, to fully appreciate it. So that's really cool. Yeah. And now do you work both inside and outside with your work?
[00:06:49]Emily Moores: I have not worked outside. It's not something that I'm opposed to. I haven't had a chance yet. So most of mine  within the past year or so have been all indoor installations, but they've been  looking through a window. So there's like the vantage point of looking in the gallery. But then also when you walk outside of the gallery, like looking through a window at the artwork, and so  when I am constructing the installation, I'm thinking about the composition of  when you're inside the gallery looking at it, but then also as you're walking past it in the window.
[00:07:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, neat. Okay. Very cool. And then as far as the various locations that you've been able to do work in, do you mostly work in a certain geographic area or have you been able to travel with your installations or anything like that?
[00:07:36]Emily Moores: So I've done mostly like local shows as of right now, like I'm have two small children and so going long distances isn't as much of an option right now. And I think I think there's a lot of benefit to doing local shows. Because the people who are coming to see your artwork already have a familiarity with your work. And so the kind of conversations you have, like people are asking how you transitioned or transformed or people already kind of feel comfortable with like thinking about  the paper that I'm cutting or noticing, you know, kind of different techniques that I'm using. And so I think there's a lot of value in exhibiting or continue to exhibit in your local community.
[00:08:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And kind of build that reputation and build that community, you know, of people who are like, "Oh, you're doing a new one. I want to come back and see that." Yeah. Yeah. That's neat. So with your artwork, I'm sure, obviously, you always have a lot of intentionality behind what you do of course, but are there specific themes that really kind of pull at you that, that are really important for you to express, or is that also dependent on how you're commissioned or how was that whole process? How was the creative process for you?
[00:08:54]Emily Moores: I would say, so my creative process is usually I build like a little model of the gallery out of foam core. And then I play around with like a tiny version in my studio space, but a lot of times I'll have  a basic vision or an outline with the larger materials. So like over the summer, I was in an installation at the Riffe Gallery and I had like three triangles made out of wood that were kind of like little pyramids, just like three beams kind of going up. And those were pre-planned, but there was a lot of it that I built to fit. I kind of like build components. And then after I get the main structure set up, then I'm walking around the gallery, thinking about how the viewer, like, when the viewer walks into the space, what are they first going to look at? You know? And then when they walk past, what is going to change.
[00:09:49] And so a lot of times I can just build the main structure and then I go into the actual physical space and thinking about the person who's standing there, looking at it. And one of the themes that I think about a lot is being playful. And I also think about like using a sense of texture too. I guess going off on the installation is helping you be present in the space of the gallery. One of the things that I really am inspired by is a book by Susan Best called " Visualizing Feeling" where she talks about an effect, which is like, it's not exactly your feelings, but it's like if you-- you know how, like you can feel people like looking at you, even though you might not be looking at them, or you might be able to walk in and feel like a sense of danger or you can feel a mood. And so thinking about that, when you're engaging a work of art. And so a lot of times I try to use texture as a way to be playful and kind of create that feeling. But also kind of like push the viewer to like walk around and be curious and and to kind of like playful light-hearted way.
[00:10:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, so a lot of textures and I, I love texture in art that always-- I don't know why it just, it, it speaks to you on such a different level. I just think it's always so cool  whenever it's used. Yeah. Lots of texture. Okay. Now are all of your exhibits or your installations, do they, are they kind of view- only, or because there's that texture aspect, have any of your installations been something that people were invited to actually physically touch, like participate that way or?
[00:11:34] Emily Moores:  I am not opposed to moving into a place where people could touch it, but right now they are not. They're just for your eyes only. So, and some of the times I use like little wires or it could, you know, maybe they  would need to be more secure if people were to start like touching them or engaging them. So, because I usually use  tiny little wires to attach the paper to each other. And so while it's the cure to like, hang up on its own, it's not secure to be like, touched on or pulled on,  you know?
[00:12:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Well, and you know, it's not like that's something that has to happen or something. I was just curious, cause I know some artists end up creating some things that, that that's part of the intention behind it, which is kind of cool too. Okay. So you mentioned, you know, the playful aspect, which I love. I think that's really a charming thing that you do. Do you also use your artwork to address things, concerns that you have or to speak about? Like current events-- not that you have to, because I think there's so much room for so many different kinds of art and I'm, you know, like I think the whole spectrum is fantastic, but I'm just curious. Do you use some of what you do to speak out about, you know, things that are important to you or is most of what your work does for, you know, for that experience, for that joy, for that playfulness?
[00:13:00]Emily Moores: I would say it's not really connected to current events in that it leans more for the joy or playfulness. I think about it more like an abstract painting where like, when you think about the brush strokes creating a sense of movement, and your eye going through the composition of a painting, that these are like textures that are pulling you in and out for this kind of like immaterial, but like feeling of engagement where you're like walking and exploring maybe like a, a real life or 3D kind of painting, abstract painting.
[00:13:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, cool. I love that description. That is so fun to think about it in those terms. All right. Very cool. Now, have you dabbled in other art forms as well? Or is your primary focus right now your installation art, which I'm sure takes up an extensive amount of time?  You talked about your process being starting very small with these models and then kind of building out from there. So obviously you're, you're very engaged with your work, but do you do other art firms as well? Or is this kind of your gig?
[00:14:08]Emily Moores: I play with-- sometimes between like a lot of installations I'll make like wallwork, so there'll be like sculptures that hang on the wall. And a lot of times it's like taking the remnants or the leftovers from my installations and playing with them in a new way. And so I'm able to kind of like push ideas or like different uses of colors, like quickly.  I'm going to be veering into that direction right now because I'm finishing up my big projects. I've been storing my scraps, and so I will kind of like use a smaller wallwork as a way to kind of rethink how I'm moving my colors or the scraps of paper or the textures.
[00:14:50]Lindsey Dinneen: So cool. Very cool. Now you had mentioned-- and I loved this-- you had mentioned being able to do quite a bit of indoor work last year. And last year as we all know, was a little wonky, to say the least. So I'm curious, how did COVID affect your work or, or did it? Or did it make things adapt or your galleries change or whatever? What was the outcome for you?
[00:15:16] Emily Moores: Well, the first exhibition I had last year, I set it up and then like a week later everything was shut down. So the gallery was not really prepared for that. And it was also on a college campus. And so they, nobody really saw that exhibition. But then when I was at the ROY G BIV Gallery, they did like virtual. They did a lot of like social media. In Instagram, I got to do an Instagram takeover, which was really helpful. And they also, you could look, look at things through the window and they also did like scheduled tours too. So you could schedule it with your, like, wear your mask and just go one at a time into the, or like, like your family could go one at a time. And then, over the summer, I was at the Riffe Gallery in Columbus, Ohio, and they we did some virtual artists talks. But a lot of it was just like posting online. They did an artist talk on YouTube where they walked around the gallery and talked about the artwork that was in the show. So that was helpful because then people who were out of state, you know, that I was familiar with, I could just email them the YouTube link of the exhibition talk. So.
[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's nice to have that ability to share your art actually with maybe a wider audience than you would have necessarily. Yeah. And I love the fact that those galleries were so innovative in their approaches. I've just been so impressed with the adaptability-- and of course we shouldn't be surprised, this is what artists do, right? But I've just been so impressed with the adaptability and flexibility that I've seen with that kind of thing in mind, like sure --one- at- a- time tours or one group at a time, or look through the window or let's do this virtually. That is really cool.  I'm so glad to hear that you were able to do a lot of work regardless. That's encouraging. So I'm curious, are there any stories that kind of come to mind of times where maybe either you watch somebody react to some art work that you had done, or you went to go see some art and you had this sort of gut reaction or this moment that you thought I really need to remember this? This is kind of something that stands out to me as an encounter with art?
[00:17:34] Emily Moores: Yeah. I do not remember the artist's name off the top of my head, but I went to MOCA in Cleveland and there was an like a installation where you walked in and sat down, like you were in a movie theater and then you put on these headphones. And then the artist had done like where you stick the microphones into-- so you do like two microphones that she stuck into foam heads when she recorded. So when you put these headphones on, it would sound like she was right behind you because the speakers matched your ears. So she was like whispering in your ear while you were like watching this movie and you couldn't focus because it really felt like there was a person like standing behind you, like making fun of the movie. And, and so I really love artwork that I guess kind of throws you off a little bit and kind of makes you-- I guess, I don't know. I just really had one that was really memorable because it was just so  unexpected, I guess.
[00:18:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Unexpected. That's a great word. Yeah. So essentially things that surprise you because maybe they're a little bit different or a little bit more innovative, or like you said, like having her voice feel like it was right behind you, immersed in this experience. That's really cool. Yeah. And then, do you often have an opportunity to witness people witnessing your art or is it more you set it up and then, you know, people kind of witnessed it on their own time.
[00:19:05]Emily Moores:  I would say that there's like, so as I'm building it, a lot of times people, you know, before COVID, would come up and talk to me about what I was doing and I really love that engagement. And also  you can watch people interact with it during the opening, but especially now with social media, you know, if people tag you,  you can see their reaction when you're not in the gallery. So, or kind of like learn more about what they say when they talk about like what they're looking at. And so I think that that's also really powerful too.
[00:19:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. So I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:19:54]Emily Moores: I know maybe this isn't like the right answer, but I actually don't really worry about defining art because I think there's a lot of people who push, you know, especially when you think about like the past. A hundred years where people are like doing social practices, art, or they're switching into doing installations and all of these norms were broken, but they're still really meaningful ways of engagement. Sometimes I think if we get too caught up in trying to define something, then we can lose our ability to be open. And, and so I'm not-- I guess I'm not as concerned with having a definition. I know for me, I definitely practice within like the realm of installation and within, you know, making wall works. You know, like maybe I'll go back to making paintings or drawings, but like if I were to walk into a gallery and there's like a performance and it's mostly dance, I don't feel like I wouldn't necessarily want to adhere to a definition.
[00:20:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I actually love that answer because I have never heard it said quite like that. And I, I agree with you. I think, I think sometimes we can get bogged down too much in the definitions, but I love your openness.  Okay. And then also, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:21:20]Emily Moores: I think that there are a lot of different kinds of roles for different kinds of artists. Like some artists have you reflect on, you know, historical events or connect you to maybe an idea or group of people that you wouldn't have a connection with. And I guess in any situation, whether, you know, like if I'm just creating artwork to be playful, I'm still creating a connection to this like physical, tangible object existing in space. And so for me, I would say artists create connections where we maybe haven't thought about them previously.
[00:22:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Mm. Yeah. I love that. Yes, and you're, you're completely right --the playfulness matters. I mean,  it's so important to have art be fun and joyful too. I mean, again, like I was saying earlier, it can do so many things, but I just, I love that what you do is playful. That's fantastic. We need that in our world.
[00:22:22]Emily Moores: I was at a baby shower recently, and somebody told the expecting mother that all the cliches that people say about having a baby are completely true. And in some ways, like when you think about these things that you talked about, or maybe were cliche from like kindergarten. So sometimes I think about, do you remember that book about, was it Ferdinand the mouse? Or maybe it wasn't Ferdinand. It was a little mouse who all the other mice were working and he was like collecting images of colors in his head and he kept them going through winter. I don't remember the name of that book, but sometimes it's kind of like these moments of play. Especially, you know, before COVID, so much of our culture was just like rushing and trying to accomplish so many things and if you're always rushing, you know, like you miss all these beautiful moments in your life. And so, and even now with so many people being quarantined and things are struggling, taking these moments of playfulness are still really important. And so sometimes those things that seem cliche are still really important.
[00:23:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely amen to that. Love it. Okay. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit. So inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provides a little bit of context behind it, whether it's their inspiration or program notes, or it titles, something. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's left solely to the viewer or participant to make of it what they will.
[00:24:08]Emily Moores: I would probably say a little bit of both, and kind of like, depending on the artist, their intent, like leaning towards one way or another. So like, if somebody is creating artwork about a historic event and they want you to feel a connection to something that happened, that inclusiveness of creating like a wall text, or like parameters for how to look at the artwork would be really important. Whereas for me personally, I don't feel like when people walk in to look at my installations, I don't think that they need to really know.  My artwork is not biographical. It's not necessarily connected to anything specific, other than like wanting people to be present in the moment in a really playful, engaging way. And so I don't, for me, I wouldn't say that I need to have that wall text, you know? So it kind of, it kind of depends on what the artist's intentions are, but I feel like both are valuable.
[00:25:10]Lindsey Dinneen: I agree with you. Yeah. I liked that a lot. Perfect. All right. Well, first of all, Emily, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your stories. And it's so interesting to me to hear about your process and how installation art just changes and adapts. And I love that seems just like a perfect metaphor for artists and art in general. So.
[00:25:36] Emily Moores: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. Yeah.
[00:25:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Yeah. And I would love if our audience is able to connect with you or follow your work, or now, since some of your things are virtual, I guess we can mostly all engage. Do you mind sharing a little bit of, kind of how to, to follow your journey?
[00:25:57]Emily Moores:  I have a website. It's just emilymorres.com. But if you go to my biography, that's where all the links are going to be, like the curator talks or any kind of like interviews I've given. And then also I post on Instagram. So it's @emilymoores_art. And those are more like studio shots, which my studio is a little crazy. I think the most recent shot is my daughter. She just like squirted the paint and was like washing her hands in it. She's learned how to open the paint. So that is a little messy right now.
[00:26:29]Lindsey Dinneen: Aww, I love it though. I love the behind the scenes. I, I often joke with fellow artists about how sometimes there's this perception that an artist's life is really glamorous, but if you look behind the scenes, you know, there are moments of glamor for sure, but that's maybe like the 5% and the other 95% is messy.  Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much again, Emily. I really appreciate your time today and sharing your stories, and I'm excited to take a look at some of your artwork and I'm sure our audiences as well. And I just appreciate what you do. I love your stance on playfulness and joy, and just that's that's so cool what you do. So thank you. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you are as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:27:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:27:40]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique.  The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 041 - Darnell Benjamin (Part 2)

In today's episode, I welcome Darnell Benjamin again! This is part two of a two-part interview with this incredible actor, filmmaker, choreographer, dancer, and all-around amazing artist. He shares his heart about bringing dance to more people, and how fortunate he always feels to be an artist. His interview is truly inspiring, so enjoy part two today!
 
Get in touch with Darnell Benjamin: www.13thandrepublic.com | https://www.facebook.com/darnell.p.benjamin | www.instagram.com/darnell.p.benjamin 
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Episode 41 - Darnell Benjamin (Part 2)
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here--just a really quick moment to let you know that this is part two of a two-part interview. If you recall from last week , we actually broke this episode into two different recordings because it was so good. Darnell has so many wonderful things to share with us. And the interview just is a little bit longer than our typical episode length. And so if you'll recall, part one was last week. Part two is this week. If you haven't already listened to part one, I would highly encourage you to go back and do that real quick before you jump onto today's episode so that it flows really well for you, but you are in for an absolute treat, and I am so excited to share Darnell with you once again. And without further ado, enjoy.
[00:01:25] Darnell Benjamin: It's like, I don't know about you. I think a lot about how, you know, the people who inspired me and I, you know, we all have those people who really just inspired us and why we do what we do. And , and, and some, for me, it came so late. And, it's been a very important thing for me to try and visibly be that person that I wish I would have seen. I never growing up seeing a really, really out queer black man. I, I didn't accept, you know, obviously you can see these people on TV, but that can feel very removed. You know, I didn't see that in my community.
[00:02:06] And so it's been very important for me to, to be that person and to be unapologetic about it. And, and know that you can know that I can still be unapologetic about it, but still be able to not lose my sense of being grounded. You know what I mean? Not getting so sort of removed and unapologetic to where you don't, where you disconnect with people. Like for me, I thrive on those connections with people and I thrive on even the connections with my students. And I try to be that person that I wish I could've seen. You know, that's what it boils down to. And now granted, you know, we all have good days and bad days. Haha! 'Cause there was some days that I, I don't know if I'm winning at being that person, but that's a part of the cycle. And, and, and I didn't know. I mean, I'm just, I'm grateful to have even had an opportunity to share that story. You know, I really am. I really, really am.
[00:03:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That, that is incredible. So yeah. Good, good for you and, and good for you for, you know, wanting to be that for the people coming behind you, right? Not just, you're not just sort of reflecting on, "Oh, I didn't have that. Oh, that's too bad." But you know, "Oh, I didn't have that, but I wish I could have, and I know that I can be that for someone else," so, yeah.
[00:03:29] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And even looking at this pandemic right now and thinking about how--oh, my goodness, I don't know about you-- but this pandemic has really made me feel so small. It's made me realize how small we are all are in the larger spectrum of things, and so what I've been doing, I'll share this. I've been going back to all of those favorite movement books that I'd read in the past. And I've just been sort of immersing myself in being reminded of basic-level things. Like I re-read the "Viewpoints" book. I re-read the Labon efforts book. I re-read both Tadashi Suzuki books that I have, which is what, is The Art of Acting." And then there's also "On the Technique of Acting." I read that one. I've just been kind of reimmersing myself into--because coming from a dance background, it, it was a no-brainer for me that in the work that I do as an actor, it always comes from a movement perspective. I can't not. Like that's the first thing my brain thinks is, how does this character walk ? You know, little things like that. And going back to the basics, that's been, it, it's been kind of humbling and very, just kind of, it's just kind of nice to be reminded of how small we all are. You know what I mean? I, I've been in that place of being reminded of that and being gracious. So that's, that's, that's, that's where I am right now in regards to all that.
[00:04:59] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. I love it. You know? Yeah. I just love the fact that that art can do that kind of thing for us. And, and that's what makes it so special. And, you know, before we started recording, we had a chance to chat a little bit, and you had talked a little bit about how you feel that art can be experienced by everybody in different ways, sort of. Do you want to chat more about that?
[00:05:26] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. I mean, I think about like, for example, growing up in a small town in Southern Louisiana , my family, you know, they, they are not people who are big art people. And I think some of that comes from the perspective they have of not being invited to or are a part of that world. But I was just the kid who art was where I--there was never a question--I mean, it, it was so clear to me that this is the world in which I sit. And what I found is that, you know, growing up in those environments -- my family that, you know, it's kinda not the greatest story in the world, but my dad, he passed away in March unexpectedly and he had been telling me-- the last thing my dad had seen me do and as far as performance was in grad school, and that was like in 2008 and here we are now, you know, in 2021, he passed in March of 2020. And he kept saying, every year, "I'm going to come to Cincinnati. I'm going to see something you're doing when it come to Cincinnati. I'm going to see something you're doing." And that's over and over again.
[00:06:29] It's the same thing with my mom's side of the family. And they don't, you know, and I know a big reason why that is, is because they and, and I'm only speaking the words that they, my mom particularly, has said to me herself is that she sometimes will say she doesn't get it. She doesn't get it and I, I, it's so easy for people to think that art is above them. And I think that's really a sad thing. The reality is that art is for anybody and everybody. Now granted that are a particular piece of art may not speak to you. And that's valid. I don't think anybody should feel guilty because something doesn't speak to them. I think about, for example, Beyonce, as much as everybody loves Beyonce, I'm just not that much of a fan. And I don't feel badly. And I'm a gay black man and people get mad at me about not being a fan. But my thing is I love Solange. I love her sister. Her sister does some weird, interesting music. And I am all for that. I love people who take those risks like that.
[00:07:28] So I guess what I'm getting at is that there is no such thing-- there is no reality to the idea that art is not for everybody. Art is for everyone. Art should rather be for everyone. And unfortunately though, people start to drink that Kool-Aid and they start to believe that, "Oh, this is not meant for me." Like what I think about what happened to me.  And that professor, if I would have listened to that professor, I would never be doing Shakespeare. I would have given up and I would have closed the door and I would have limited the potential of my career, not even just my career, but my work as an artist. And what a foolish thing, you know what I mean? So, for me, it's so incredibly important to know that you just have to find the art that you like, because there are so much out there.
[00:08:15] I think about like, you know, for example, I struggle sometimes in art galleries, that's just, that's, I'm more of a -- I like art that moves, like art galleries, where it's more of a -- whether that's video work or experiential work. I love that kind of art. I have to admit I'm not as big into paintings on a wall. And does that mean that paintings are not amazing and valid pieces of art? Of course not! That just means that for some reason, to me, it doesn't speak as much. Now, granted, have I found expressionists work? Absolutely. That speaks to me. I love when I can just fall into a painting and not understand it necessarily in the--and what I mean by not understand it is--I might not be able to know exactly what the artist's intention was, but guess what? I am a, a consumer of art, so I have a right to digest it how I digest it, and to translate it in a way that applies to me.
[00:09:20] For example, I think about in grade school or even high school, the book choices that schools choose. I'm from, like I said, Southern Louisiana and my high school was primarily BIPOC. And we had a really high Asian population as well as black. And we were reading things that--I mean, you know, for example, the conversation on "The Great Gatsby." It's hard for a kid growing up in a small Southern Louisiana town who doesn't have much exposure, for example, to , to white individuals or to individuals outside of his world. So he might read that and not connect at all. He probably is not going to even finish reading it because it's going to be like, "I don't get this, this doesn't do anything for me."
[00:10:09] But, so that's why I think what it boils down to is from a young age, right, teachers, mentors, parents should expose their kids to the art that speaks to their communities, that speaks to their world because that will open the door then to them expanding their reach of what art they connect with. But if they're not even given that opportunity, then if, or rather if they're given work, art that doesn't relate to any of their world, that's, that's not going to affect them. I was a weirdo kid who got affected by everything. I was so interested in a lot. I remember reading "The Red Pony," and I liked "The Red Pony." I'm pretty sure I was the only kid who liked  "The Red Pony." But, that was just me, but that's not going to be like that for everybody.
[00:10:57] So I guess what I'm getting at is that if we're not, if we're not sharing art that a kid can relate to, then that kid is not going to gravitate to the art in the way that you would like them to. And so we have to start from a young age and some of that comes to also you know, support. So I think supporting friends, supporting family, and going take in people's art and... art, in my opinion, I think art also applies to if you're an entrepreneur and let's say for example, you have a, a, a shop when you sell bags, that's art. I think people forget how much they are surrounded by art. I will never forget reading that, that article, it was at least--it was in a newspaper here in Cincinnati, where they had at the bottom of essential workers was artists.
[00:11:44] And I remember being mind-blown by that because all I kept thinking was here, we are in a shutdown with a pandemic and you are at home doing what? You're watching TV shows and films. You're listening to music when you workout. You are playing with your kids, with toys are games that were created by artists. So the whole time, I'm just kind of like, how are we not essential when we're the only reason why you've not lost your mind right now? Right? I think about that all the time. How just, I think our culture in America is so disconnected with what art is. I don't think people really understand that art exists in--even for example, engineers, I think, are kind of artists like creating devices that work in a certain way and having to put all the pieces in, in the only way that'll make it work correctly. And over time, we think about the technology of phones getting better and better and better and technology getting better and better, but there is an art to that. And I wish that that kind of art understanding was taught. So people genuinely understand that you are surrounded every single day. That lamp that's sitting on your desk, that's art.
[00:13:02] So I think the more we can get our culture to truly embrace and see the art that's around them, that I think that whole conversation on the , on the art being for someone or not will stop. But I think until we get that understanding to people that they are surrounded by--these masks, I think of everybody choosing their own specific mask, buying it from friends who are designing these, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that is a designer! That is a costume designer or purely just somebody who loves to, so who is making a piece of art. Art for you to wear on your face." And that is amazing. That is so amazing to me.
[00:13:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I love that perspective and you're absolutely right. We are literally surrounded by art. Even the furniture is designed by somebody. I mean, that's an art. Everything--almost everything-- yeah, is, is artfully created on some level. I mean,  I have a friend who is an engineer and he was having trouble seeing what he did as art. And I was like, are you kidding me? What do you design? It's designed! That's art. Like you have a unique, you know, you get to include the science and the math and all that with it too. But like it's, it's art. Yeah. It's so cool.
[00:14:24] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. I even think about like, for example, us as dancers. Oh my goodness. The understanding you have to have of anatomy and even physics to really, truly understand how you can make your body dance. And dance specifically--I mean, science and art, in my opinion are constantly best friends, always working together. And the stronger your understanding, in my opinion of science, and particularly in regards to anatomy, the stronger your ability to dance, when you can know and understand what your body is doing little, tiny little adjustments. Like one of my favorite things in dancing, even as a dancer or as a choreographer, I'm big on isolations. I love isolating body movements. I'm very into that. 'Cause I love that little tiny movement that you might do with your hip can tell a whole story. I love that stuff.
[00:15:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, me too. And. Yes. Oh, yes. That's all I can say about that.
[00:15:25] Darnell Benjamin: We are scientists, darn it. We are scientists.
[00:15:29] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. Or at least we have to have a solid understanding. Goodness. Yes, you're so right. That's one of my favorite things to teach my kiddos and adults in jazz classes, isolations and learning that your body does not have to move as a whole, like you can move individual parts. It's pretty cool.
[00:15:47] Darnell Benjamin: Oh yes. Oh yes. The body is a funny and strange thing. So strange.
[00:15:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Well, this has been so much fun and you have so much insight to share. So thank you for all of these stories. And I'm just curious, is there anything in particular that really stands out to you as an encounter with art that's like a moment to remember? Something that really matters that stands out as like "I've got to file that away."
[00:16:16] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, my goodness. So many. Oh gosh.  I'll share a couple. One of them was in Houston. When I was in grad school, I went to see a show at the alley theater. I cannot remember what show it was offhand. But that company of actors--it's they're an ensemble. So it's a lot of times the same people in productions and you develop a relationship with them, you know, over time. But when watching this one show, I would never forget, there was this table behind this couch. And, you know, they would put things on it on occasion. Somebody would lean on it. In one moment somebody was leaning on it, right? And the table broke and the actor almost fell, but didn't quite, but every single actor on stage had this sort of moment of the gasp and nobody did anything for a little bit.
[00:17:08] And slowly you started to see people start to tremble, 'cause they were wanting to laugh so badly. And one by one, they broke, and they laughed for--no joke--probably like a solid two minutes. They could not stop. Like, and you know how that is. Anytime one of them would pull it together, and another one pull it together, and then somebody else would start laughing again. It was the most phenomenal thing to watch on stage when you have that, that sort of --the layer peeled away and you're just seeing these real people on stage. It was magical and hilarious. I will never forget that. That goes down in easily one of the top theatrical experiences of my life.
[00:17:52] And then I got to say another one too. This one is this one isn't as funny. This was pretty intense, but yeah. It was, I was still in undergrad at the time. And there's this festival called ACTF, which is American College Theater Festival is ACTF. Yes, that's right. Yes. And it's in Fayetteville, Arkansas, or it was that year. And the students go to compete for this Irene Ryan scholarship. So there's this production of "Pterodactyls" by Nicky Silver. And if you are into playwrights who write very sort of dark comedy-type plays, that's perfect. Well, this play, this guy is building this pterodactyl on the stage, like a life-size pterodactyl, he's climbing on a ladder and everything. It's really just amazing to watch. And yeah, throughout the play, there's this tension between him and his mother and he's trying to confront her and tell her. And he ultimately, she thinks he's about to come out as gay. And so she's avoiding it and dodging and dodging, and he just keeps saying, "But mom, I need to tell you something." And she's like, "Oh, well, you know, you can tell me later, there's this going on." And that's going on and on and on and on.
[00:19:00] And then out of nowhere, it's building up and building up and building up and then suddenly he just screams, "I have AIDS." And the lights go out. Oh my God. I did not see that coming it. Yeah. Right. I was probably 19 or 20 at the time and it just came absolute--it was so unexpected, that it's a moment I will never forget because it was done so beautifully, the orchestration of the lines and the buildup. And then what you expect is going to be one thing and they completely pulled the rug under you. And then complete blackout right after the line. And it was just like, "Are you serious?" Oh my God, I've never -- well that's a lie--I've cried in the theater quite a bit, but that was one of those cries I was not ready for. And on top of that, it was the lights coming up in the house and I'm mortified sitting there bawling my eyes. I will never forget that. I will never, never, never forget that.
[00:20:01] And it also, okay. Sorry, I got another one. You will appreciate this as a dancer too. I got to do this show, "bobrauschenberbergamerica" by Chuck Mee, and it's a phenomenal script. It's very kind of -- I didn't, I mean, I think in some ways you could call it an expressionist piece--but I played this character, Wilson, who is just hopelessly in love with this woman who comes like, sort of plays him like a yo-yo. She's back and she's gone and she's back and she's gone and there is this beautiful dance we got to do. And by the way, we got to do a Viennese waltz. And I don't know if you're a, a ballroom dancer, so you know what I'm talking about. Exactly. That is a tricky piece of movement to do and do smoothly. And while we're dancing, these ping pong balls are thrown all over the stage. By the end of the dance, there are seriously somewhere around 500 ping pong balls all over the stage, and we're navigating this dance through this. It was so, so magical and challenging, but the great thing, and you know what I'm talking about when I say this, she was an amazing partner. So the trust was so solid. We just floated. And it was just absolutely magical. Okay. I got one more, one more and I promise this is the last one.
[00:21:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Go for it.
[00:21:23] Darnell Benjamin: This was over a year ago. Wow.  2019, December. I was doing "Alice in Wonderland" and I was playing  the March Hare.  And since the director knew that I-- I, so I roller skate. I'm really big into roller skating. I love it. I refuse to get rid of my my roller skates. And she knew this about me because I'd done a show a few years back where I got to roller skate on stage while drunk with a bottle of Zima. And, but in this particular production I got to skate and I got to do tricks actually. And that was the most fun thing to do to bring in, you know, a hobby, a fun thing that I love to do in my personal life to bring that on stage. I mean, I don't know, just having those moments where you could bring a little bit of yourself, truly yourself into a stage experience. That was just fun. And I will never forget, there was this one day I got the best compliment ever . It meant the world to me because--so I had to skate on stage from stage left, which for anyone who's listening, if you were sitting in the audience, that's going to be to the right-- so I have to skate in from stage left and drop this miniature table, but I had to put it down in such a way to where the face--'cause there was a character's face on it--that was facing out toward the audience. It had to be facing out. And I just messed it up a couple of times in rehearsal.
[00:22:50] So, the break came and me being me, I went back and forth for probably like, no joke, 20 to 25 times getting it right. 'Cause I, it just had to be right. I wanted to nail it and I wanted to hit my turn and do a smooth exit. So one of the actors in the show was just watching that whole time, watching me go back and forth and back and forth. And she said, "Darnell, I love your commitment." And yeah. I don't know if she knows this--Sarah, if you're listening to this, just know that I went backstage and cried. I don't know why that really kind of affected me because, you know, I think about, and I'm sure you know this as a ballet dancer, the amount of discipline the work takes to make it effortless is a lot more than what the audience knows. You get to see the final product, but here we are like--especially if you're one of those obsessive people like me--you're, you're working so hard, not even just in rehearsal, but when you're home to try, and get it right. And to have someone acknowledge that, that was pretty huge for me.
[00:23:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Well, you know, what's so funny is--you'll actually appreciate this-- so a couple of years ago--I also, I really love roller skating. And a couple of years ago I asked one of my dancers-- who also choreographs quite extensively on the company-- and I asked her if she would like to set a piece that included some roller skating. And her being the sweet yes person she is, was like, "Sure, I'm up for this challenge." So she created this adorable--and I'm going to have to dig it up and maybe I can post a link to it at some point-- but this adorable, like fifties diner piece where it was myself and one of the other dancers were in roller skates. 'Cause we were the only two that were brave enough/foolish enough to undertake this. And , and we were the waitresses and then it was like, all these we're trying to do all. It was like cute little love story. And we're trying to do all this partnering and, oh my goodness. Do you realize how much weight is added when you do rollerskates? And then this, my poor partner, I think he was like, "What is happening?" 'Cause I, you know, there's all this weight at the bottom of your feet now. And so anyway, it was such a hoot in rehearsals and... I'm not gonna lie. One of the walls suffered a little bit when I totally fell, like biffed it, fell. And like my skate went right through the wall. So that's my roller skate dancing story.
[00:25:21] Darnell Benjamin: But isn't that the best, though? That's the, like, I don't know about you--my favorite moments on the stage are the ones where there is an , a mistake that happens when something goes wrong and you have to figure it out. I mean, I will never forget--I was doing this production of a show called "The Legend of Georgia McBride," and I'm playing this drag queen in the show and I happen to have on these heels that were probably good solid five inchers, but it also had a platform to it. So they were, they were, I was working. Right? And this one night I was feeling myself, you know, because we're doing the final number and it was a matinee, you know, those matinees, you're all energized. At the beginning of the day, I was getting my best life and I added, you know, how, like, whenever you watch those runway models and sometimes they kind of land on the outside of their foot and roll it flat when they're crossing the legs, and I somehow did that and I was feeling myself and I landed directly on the ground and I was so embarrassed because I got through the entire run of that show, not falling. But the, best part about it was that while I was down there, because my character is kind of like the messy type, I was like, "Well, okay, here we go. We're going to make this a bit." And so I turned it into this whole crawling routine and had fun. And I just think that's my favorite stuff I love when not--let me not say that, please. Okay. I don't love when things go wrong, but I appreciate when things happen that remind us. Oh, yes, yes. We got to stay present.
[00:26:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word that, that is exactly it. Yes. I, I joke about it, but it's a true fact--and I'm sure you've experienced this too--when you know a piece of choreography in and out, and eventually you go on autopilot to some degree, but the problem is that is, that is effective only if you don't quote, unquote, wake up in the middle of your autopilot, because you had this experience where all of a sudden you're like, "Hmm, I'm in the middle of the stage. I don't even know what comes next." Like have you had that?
[00:27:33]Darnell Benjamin:  I have totally had that happen so many times and I've had it happen to the point where you're autopiloting--it's autopilot, autopilot, and then you realize that you're there and then you get in your head because you realize that you're there and you're watching somebody who happens to be looking at your footwork. And then suddenly you forget how to move your feet. Oh, trust me. There was this one number in a show, "All Shook Up," and I was in the ensemble in this show and we got this great choreographer who gave us this movement where it was basically it was kind of like, I guess, a soft shoe sorta sorta kinda. Yeah, it was kind of a soft shoe and for some, and the feet are like moving in many different directions. So if you mess up one thing, good luck. You're in trouble. And I messed up one thing and this woman watched my feet the entire time smiling and laughing and I'm like, "Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you're enjoying this because I am not." In, at the same show--this is another thing that happened with this show--so the shoes they got us for that number were these really, you know, and that's always the challenge when it comes down to shoes for dance shows, you know--spend that extra money and get the better pair, but they did not do this, right?
[00:28:43] And the sole of the shoe from the heel forward started coming apart, but it came apart at a fast rate. So I'm doing this very heavy footsie moment where we are crossing the feet and moving in all these different directions and the shoes, the sole starts flapping throughout the entire dance. It's so all this time, I'm just mortified because I can't quite land on my foot flat. And it gets to a point where finally I did this one kick little thing and the entire thing just flew off it. Yeah. I mean, live theater didn't get better than that. Live art is my favorite for all of those little mistakes. And yep, everybody saw it. There was no hiding it. So I kind of like laughed through the entire number because I was like, they're enjoying it. I'm going to enjoy it too. I love that.
[00:29:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm sure everybody has a shoe story to tell. I, oh my goodness. I had one time where we were doing a ballroom-inspired piece. It was , it was really fun choreography and it had like some elements of a Foxtrot mixed in with just a little bit of ballet. And anyway, it was, it was really charming piece. And I realized about five seconds--I don't even know--into the piece that my ballroom shoe wasn't buckled securely. And I spent that entire dance with this, like, you know, the gritting teeth smile where you're just, you're--it's not genuine. You're just, yeah. It's like, "Look at my face. Look at my face. Don't look at my feet. I'm going to distract from my flailing limbs." Yes, and so this--I'm gripping so tightly with my arch that I'm like, "This shoe is not coming off." 'Cause I cannot think of any sort of way to gracefully get out of this situation. If the shoe comes off, it's going to be bad, right? So the entire time I'm like gripping it with my arch muscles. And I'm like, this isgonna stay on. And the last few seconds there are these high kicks that I do. And I cannot tell you, I had the biggest cramp after that dance, because I was like, "This dang shoe is staying on my foot. I don't care what happens." Oh my word. And hopefully no one noticed, but I was a mess and, oh my goodness. And I don't think even my partner,--'cause I like whispered to him--I was like, "My shoe's coming off." And I'm pretty sure he didn't even hear me. And he was just smiling the whole time anyway. So...
[00:31:13] Darnell Benjamin: But you know, I mean, what a joy, I mean, these are--some of my favorite stories from theater are these sort of tragic moments where we, you know what I mean? Because I feel like so often when we perform, it's very, we, you know, we become these characters. We join that world. And what these mistakes do for me, they remind me that, oh, my God. It's not that serious. We can have fun. I get reminded of that whenever those things happen, that we have to remember that we get to do this. We get to do this. So, yeah, I love, I love when those mishaps happen. Well, the ones that we can fix.
[00:31:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, amen to that. And it is so fun because these stories are what makes it just charming and where you build this comradery around being an artist, being a dancer, being an actor, anything. And you know, like we've talked about, we both have skating stories, ironically. We both have shoes stories, ironically, and they're not the same, but we get it. It's so fun. I love that about art.
[00:32:15] Darnell Benjamin: Yes, even when the stage falls on you. I mean, I remember this one performance where we were doing a show, "Love's Labour's Lost." And the director did it in this way that it was sort of a character in the, in the present, like today's world, kind of opening this book. And I, and as the character starts to tell this story, or to dig into this story, the, the, the front part of the stage--sort of, I don't know, like a door, like one big, huge door opens up. For some reason--I could not believe this of all times for this to happen--on the first preview, the wall starts to fall. And, and it's so funny. Nobody can control themselves. But at the same time, you know, that's their mixture of horror, 'cause you don't want anybody to get hurt, of course. But there's also that mixture of, "Oh, my goodness. Is this happening in front of the audience? And am I the person who looks so stupid right now? Oh my goodness. What is happening?" It's, but I will never forget that. I won't forget watching this actor friend of mine, Kelly, stand there as this wall is falling and trying to figure out, "Do I save my life and get off the stage? Or do I stay in character and pretend like nothing?"
[00:33:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Yes. I think everybody has experienced that who's done any kind of live theater production of, "Do I stay in character or do I die basically?" Yeah.
[00:33:49] Darnell Benjamin: And it's so funny to watch, watch the person think. You can see their brain running through, "What do I do? Do I leave the stage? Do I stay?" And I'm just like, "I want you to do whatever you want to do because right now it is entertaining. I want this moment, whatever this moment is, keep doing it."
[00:34:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh, I love that. And so a lot of what my company has done in the past is bring, try to bring some humor and some lightheartedness and a lot of joy into, into our productions. And one of the pieces we did was where we had a bunch of dancers ahead of time, record themselves saying things that they would say in their head during a performance, just to be funny. So like, part of it was something like, you know, commenting on how bright the lights were, or somebody  noticed abBobby pin on the floor that they have to avoid, or, you know, "Nailed it!" after a turn or just like all sorts of like hilarious things. And then we compiled them all into this piece. And, and so it became sort of like the introspection, like the audience getting to hear what goes through dancers' heads as they're actually performing and it was a hoot, yeah.
[00:35:02] Darnell Benjamin: Yes. I love that idea. Oh my goodness. I wish I could have seen that. That's right up my alley. I love when we look at the art that we do and that we can not take it so seriously. You know what I mean? That yes, absolutely art can, you know, because that's the one thing that I, I, you know, I was thinking about that even most of the first half of this, I know a lot of what I was talking about were these heavy, serious things. But even in the film, that's why I made sure there was a moment of joy because I'm like, despite all the bad, despite all the complications--I mean, look at the world of art right now, as far as performing arts, like how we're not able to do what we do. And, and how sad that is, but also what I'm noticing a lot of people are doing, they're reminiscing. They're telling stories, they're sharing things on social media about this funny thing that happened backstage or whatever. And I just think of as much as we bring joy to people who watch what we do, I think about the joy we get from each other when we're creating. And we're in that making it happen. And the fun, the fun that happens in a rehearsal process is everything for me. I love the joy in rehearsal. I love it. I show up to rehearsal and I'm that person who shows up excited to be there every single day, because it's, "Oh my goodness. We get to do this. We get to do this. What a joy, what a joy."
[00:36:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen. I love that. Well, I have some questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're up for that.
[00:36:34] Darnell Benjamin: Please!
[00:36:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:36:43] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, child. Wow. That's rich.  Hm. I guess the best way I would describe art--art is perspective. Art is when someone shares their perspective through a specific medium whether that be film, theater, dance , visual , music. I mean, the list goes on. It's perspective. I think art is a person's perspective through a medium. I know that sounds very simple, but I think that that's, that's how I would define what art is.
[00:37:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I think that's perfect. Yeah. I love that. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:37:28] Darnell Benjamin: Ooh. I think the number one rule for an artist is to be honest. I think that, to be honest, whatever that means, to be honest.
[00:37:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And then I'll define my terms a little bit in my final question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts some work out into the world and shares a little bit of context behind that, whether that show notes or titles or whether it's the inspiration behind it or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and doesn't provide context behind it, so he or she leaves it entirely up to the viewer or participant to come up with their own interpretation.
[00:38:20] Darnell Benjamin: You know, that's such a tough one because I'm a firm believer in, you know, we can't please, everybody. Everybody's going to not like our art, even if we do back it up with whether that's statistics, information, whatever. So I'm a believer in you do what you want to do. I don't know if I think it should be one way or another or the other, because it's, it depends on the intention of what the artist is trying to accomplish. I think about, for example, "13th and Republic" is non-linear. It's abstract and it, what I, what was important to me is just to make sure people understood that this is a conversation on mental health. Boom. But other than that, I want people to take it, how they take it. I want people to digest it however they want to digest it, because I can go and give a dissertation on what every single moment in the film meant. But how was that going to be helpful to them? I mean, I think it's only going to be helpful when somebody can take from something, what they get from it, as opposed to me trying to force something down their throat.
[00:39:28] And that's also not me saying that because an artist does decide, let's say for example, to be inclusive with their work, I don't think that means that they're shoving it down their throat. I think there's a, there is a difference between sharing information to get people , give people insight and give them understanding about what it is versus saying, this is what this is. You cannot see it any other way. Oh my God. That does not sound like art to me. If it's like, you're forcing your audience, but if you are purely just sharing to let them in on it. I think about like, for example, when I go to a, an interactive performance and I really am not given any kind of direction, and I'm just kind of like, "What do I do?" And I know to some degree, some people love that, but I like a little bit of direction when it's something like that. But as far as if I'm going to a, to see a dance piece, or if I'm going to see a theater, I want the work to speak for itself.
[00:40:24] And then I love having conversations. Like I love talk backs, Q&As. I am all about that because to me, that's the moment where we can start to open the dialogue about what this piece is, but I don't see Q&As as like--the questions I don't like as much is stuff where somebody is asking me to tell them what something means as opposed to me just sharing with them what I was feeling when I created this and what my inspiration was. I love sharing that, but I don't necessarily like to tell people this is exactly what this means from start to finish. Yeah. That's not as fun for me, but to answer your question overall, I think it should be dependent upon the work and the artist. So I'm, I'm open to either as long as I don't feel completely abandoned by my artists. You know what I mean?
[00:41:11] Yeah. Yes. I think that's a great perspective and I like that, that the artist can choose to include you so to speak or not, but it is based on what the artists intended and all that. So, yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so, so very much for being here today, this has been so much fun. I've loved hearing your stories and I'm so excited for you in this new pathway that you're kind of blazing with "13th and Republic" and all that. What's going to happen as a result of that, it's just so cool. And if there's a way that our audience can kind of connect with you and follow your journey, is there a way for them to do that?
[00:41:56] Ah, yes. Okay. Well, okay. We had this conversation before. I am so in the stone age, sometimes when it comes down to social media, but I do have a Facebook: Darnell Pierre Benjamin. You can find me there. Add me as a friend, be a friend, all that good stuff. And I, I, I tend to be pretty regular about keeping people up to date about things there. I'm currently in the process of revamping my website completely. So I'm not even going to share that one right now, but it will be updated in the next couple months. That's part of my New Year's plan. And I'm on Instagram as well. I do not use it as much, but I am making an intentional choice to share it because this is going to force me to use it more. And it is at Darnell.P.Benjamin. So that's, those are the two, I'd say Facebook and Instagram for now or where you can find me most. And again, the film is at onethreeandrepublic.com. So check out what's going on there as well. Especially whenever we move into this next phase of getting it out now. I do want to make it very clear. We're staying in the sort of a tri-state area of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky.
[00:43:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. And you heard it here first folks. So we're going to hold him to his Instagram  resolution for this year.
[00:43:14]Darnell Benjamin: It's true. I cannot hide it. I have to own it. I have put it out there.
[00:43:20] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go, and we'll love following your journey, but thanks again so, so much. I've just loved everything and really appreciate your perspective and your heart for art, your heart for your students, your heart for change in the world. So thank you.
[00:43:36] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me and thanks for doing this. Thanks for like collecting artists and talking about art. I mean, what a joy, what a joy. I thank you for doing that. And thank you for inviting me to be a part of this. Really. It means a lot.
[00:43:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. Absolutely, of course. And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:44:05] That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told .
[00:44:24] Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here, and I just want to share with you a little bit more about The SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you, and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 040 - Darnell Benjamin (Part 1)

In today's episode, I welcome Darnell Benjamin! His interview was so good that we ended up spending twice the time talking than my guests and I normally do. We've broken up his interview into two segments. Enjoy his experience as a professional actor, dancer, and artist today and next week.
 
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Episode 040 - Darnell Benjamin
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.
[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hi, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. Hey, I just want to quickly let you know something before our episode begins and that is that this interview was awesome. I had so much fun talking with my guest today. And I know you are absolutely going to love Darnell as well. And hey, we had so many good things to talk about, and the interview lasted a lot longer than is typical for Artfully Told listeners. So I just wanted to give you a heads up to let you know that I've actually broken this into two parts. So you're going to get part one today and then part two next week. And I just want you to know that ahead of time before we dive in, and I cannot wait to share Darnell with you. And I know you're just going to absolutely love everything has to say as well. Thank you so much.
[00:01:26] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have as my guest today, Darnell Pierre Benjamin. He is a performing artist. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:01:43] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I know that performing artist barely scratches the surface of all the different things that you do. So I would love if you would just share a little bit about maybe who you are and your background and kind of all the different things you're doing now.
[00:02:01] Darnell Benjamin: Sure. And you know, and I'll say all the things I try to do, I'll definitely say I'm originally from a Southern Louisiana small town by the name of St. Martinville. And I started dancing at around 14, mainly because I came from a family that was already very big into music and dancing. And the short version is that it was actually in therapy that I basically got coached by my therapist to explore some movement things. We were just playing with movement. And that's when I learned that for some reason, movement became a, a sort of balancing act for me, a centering place. And so I started out doing some modern dance and that got me into playing with some ballet.
[00:02:44] And fast forward to high school, start playing with the speech and debate team, and helping with the plays and then on a whim-- like no joke, it was very much at the last minute-- two weeks before starting college, I decided to change my major from what was going to be aiming towards criminal psychology to theater. And I changed it to theater. And while in the program, I was realizing that I was getting just as many dance credits as I was getting theater credits. So that's when I just realized, "Oh, I'm going to just be a performing arts major," because I was bouncing around between the two of those. And that's when I started getting in love with also Shakespeare and language and words and how they words dance in their own way as well. So, that's when I got into Shakespeare. I ended up going to grad school at University of Houston, got my MFA.
[00:03:39] And the program particularly looks at the world through the lens of classical theater, specifically Shakespeare we focused on a lot, and it's a movement-oriented program. So it was perfect for me. And now, I mean, I just kind of right now, I just juggle between acting, dancing, choreographing, directing and teaching. So you know, I, I got a bit of advice many, many years ago from a professor who told me to broaden the brand, whatever you want to do, do it. Who's stopping you? And that really stuck with me. And so now I just like to pretend my way through things.
[00:04:14]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Yes. Well, and obviously you're not just pretending your way through things. You've been very successful, which is fantastic, but we all have to start somewhere. So there you go.
[00:04:26] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, exactly, and that's what I mean by pretend is that, you know, it's--I remember the first time I started to choreograph. When I really started in the beginning, because as a dancer, you know, have your, you have your awareness of your body and your body and what your body can do, but you don't necessarily think about other people's bodies. You do when you're working with them, but how to create movement for other people's bodies. And that became a whole learning curve for me. And I caught on pretty quickly and I realized that, "Okay." Cause I think I have my strength in choreography is that I think I have a good eye, and I think I'm not afraid to lean into storytelling. I'm very inspired by like, for example, there's that dance group, Polobolus , who is like one of my top, one of my favorite dance companies. I love the type of work that they do because they don't just look at the technical aspect of dancing. They also look at the storytelling. They look at what does this one angle of the body mean versus another. So I'm very inspired by that kind of work.
[00:05:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So you started as a dancer and it was in your teens, and so you had mentioned doing modern and ballet. And so did you continue to explore those two or have you also branched into some other dance styles as well?
[00:05:45] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, definitely. Yeah. A little bit of both. So I started out in those two and I always struggled with ballet and yeah, no, I was told early on, " Yeah, just don't have the feet." And so it's still that kind of got in my head for a long time, but then I noticed I had a a facility and comfort with modern dance and contemporary world. And that opened the door to me, even playing with some jazz. And that's really where I probably think my personal movement style sits the best. And that opened also to some tap. I'm pretty decent at tap. And then I started playing with some ballroom dance and I did well at that. And when I say--well, keep in mind, I am , I would say that I think I'm a better freestyle dancer than I am like, don't get me wrong--choreo that sits in a world of modern jazz, I am ready to go. Even some hip hop, I'm ready to go---but ballet is it, it's really hard for me. And, and I, I've been trying over the years to figure out what is the wall. And some of that, I think it's a mental block because I have in my head from that one person who told me, "Ya just don't have the feet."
[00:06:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh man!
[00:07:02] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And so now it's the one that I'm afraid of the most to be perfectly honest is ballet. Terrified.
[00:07:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, well that is so funny you say that because ballet is my forte. I absolutely love it. I think it's absolutely wonderful, but I'm, I'm the opposite of somebody who's like, "Here's this really abstract, modern piece or, or even worse, here's this hip hop piece." I'll be like, "Mmm, I don't think you want me."
[00:07:28] Darnell Benjamin: And that's, you know, I totally like, I guess, you know, on the opposite end I can relate. Because I think what is so amazing, I love watching ballet mainly because I love watching something so technical that's done so freely. When it's done well, you know, when somebody really is just breathing in it. For me, I found that I was having a hard time with allowing myself to breathe. I get very tense with ballet work, and we all know that type of tension is not going to be useful for that type of work. So that was always my issue, but the freedom or what I'm perceiving rather as being freedom in, for example, modern dance , I think what, why I gravitate towards that is because I'm so story-oriented. So, and in contorting my body and moving it in , you know, anything from like, for example, a flexed foot is exciting to me because I'm like, "Oh, what does that mean?" And so I find myself digging into the story of modern dance. And it's not that by the way, please don't--I don't want to make this sound like I'm saying there aren't stories with ballet because there are absolutely some fantastic stories--it's just that I have a hard time allowing my brain to turn off when I'm doing ballet. I really do have a hard time with it.
[00:08:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense. I think it's easy in whatever genre that, that doesn't come as naturally or as easily or whatever to you, to have that in your head aspect of, "Oh my goodness. I'm just trying to focus on the technical aspects and remember my choreography." So I think that's like completely normal for any dancer, for sure. And for a lot of artists who are dabbling in, you know, trying to like expand a little bit. If you're out of your element, you don't feel as free just in general, I think.
[00:09:22] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And also the other side of that is, you know, to be absolutely real, I'm 37 and we all know what the body--like ballet at 37, it's a very different thing, especially if you've been away from it for so long. But I keep saying one of these days, I am definitely going to get back into a class because I would love to just go back to the basics. I don't know about you. I love barre work. I love just being there in the classroom and just doing the work. That's what, I'm not thinking as much. It's when I'm performing it that I get in my head.
[00:09:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Yes. I absolutely love barre work as well. It's like, there's something so--just exciting, but also safe or, which is kind of a funny way to put it, but it's just this like, feeling of home. It's like, "Okay, we're going to start back in the barre. Every time we're going to start with our plies." It's like having this, this predictable really well-thought-through formula.
[00:10:22] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When you're in that work session, it's really all about you. You just get to focus on your body. I mean, for example, I'm right now teaching at Northern Kentucky University, and I'm teaching a Movement for the Actor class and the students were working on some Tadashi Suzuki technique and it's a very focused technique. It is very--actually I would compare it to ballet in the sense of it's all about being very specific in getting to the shape, what is the shape, the specific shape--but where it's a little different is that one, and it may not be that different really , is that it's all about getting there faster, sooner, better. And it's about being able to train your body to know where that shape is without having to think about it. So that way you can just sit into it. And so working on that with my students right now, it's totally bringing me back to, I feel like I'm in a ballet class.
[00:11:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so I'm actually curious, you kind of touched on something. Do you feel that being a teacher and learning how to break things down for different students with different learning styles has helped you be a better dancer and mover?
[00:11:32] Darnell Benjamin: Oh my goodness. Do you know? I, I firmly believe that the best way to truly test your knowledge of your work and your knowledge of your body and your truth of your creative spirit is by teaching. Because when you have to navigate working with different bodies and different abilities and different levels of understanding, and to try to get them all on the same page, but you have to use different methods for each person there, it's impossible to not be able to reflect that on your own work. Because I know for me, those students teach me something different every single day, every day.
[00:12:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I absolutely agree. It's so funny because sometimes professional dancers or pre-professional aspiring dancers will ask me questions like, "What do you think, you know, is something that I should do in this endeavor? And I always say teach, because I think, when I started teaching it, it forced me, I suppose, to astronomically develop my own technique and to go back to basics and realize, "Well, I'm telling you this, I better do this too." You know, it's just so funny. And yeah, that's just a, such a big piece of advice I always give people is teach, learn to teach, and then you'll, you'll become a better dancer yourself or artist or whatever, you know? It's yeah. It's like when you have to break down all the fundamentals, you're like, "Oh yeah. Huh. I should probably do that too."
[00:13:01]Darnell Benjamin:  Absolutely. Oh my goodness. And you know what, I also try to be really honest with my students and tell them, "Hey." That whole, you know--I'm sure you've been told this, we've all been told this--when you start off in the arts young and especially I think about like, you know , that fresh out of high school going to college or going to a studio, whatever direction a person goes. And there is the, the emphasis goes a lot on discipline, you know, and I know, I think back to the time when I first taught a class, and specifically first taught a dance class, I found myself on the first day making mistakes I never make. And I remember beating myself up so much. And what I realized afterwards was that I started getting in my head and I started forgetting what I knew.
[00:13:49] And I started doubting myself and putting all of, and I was trying to be, I think I was trying to be the instructor, I think I thought I needed to be, as opposed to truly just trust your craft. And I learned a lot about myself that semester teaching and, and, and also being challenged to not only just teach, but consistency. You know what I mean? Being able to fully show up and be honest with the students and tell them, "Hey, well, there is this expectation that we are supposed to always be in the right space, quote unquote, you know what I mean, as artists, and when we go to do our performances, we still have to give those people the same show we gave the ones the night before and the night before and the night before, regardless of what baggage you're bringing into the room." But what I've tried with my students to really open the door to is having a conversation with, "where are you today?" Particularly in class, if you are in a space where you're not maybe -- let's say you didn't sleep well. Let's say you didn't drink enough water. Let's say--the list goes on. "What can you focus on you? Maybe you can't focus on the whole, but can you focus on one thing specifically?" Because you got to remember that, that classroom, whether you were the instructor or the student, it's your time and what are you doing with your time? If you're wasting it, that's on you. I mean, I, I put a lot of accountability on my students to challenge them, to accept the fact that they may not be in the best place on that given day, but you still owe yourself the time and effort to focus on something. You know what I mean?
[00:15:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. I love the way that you put that. And I think one thing that stood out to me was you mentioned basically the word honesty. And I thought about that too, where it's, I'm sure many teachers can relate to this too, if they're being honest with themselves. But it's so interesting that I had to learn as a teacher to be very, just honest with my students too. And like you said, some days are off days, and even as a teacher and I don't want to bring that into my classroom, but at the same time, there are days I fall out of every single pirouette that I try. Right? And I like to call those high gravity days, but the reality is, you know, some days things work and some don't, but I think that's bringing in the humanity of the arts and the, the reality of the arts is you do your best. You show up every single day, you do your best, but then you just keep trying. And the next day you come back and you do it again. And not every day is going to be the most, you know, ah, success day. But you keep showing up.
[00:16:30] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like what it does, I found that teaching with that perspective has made my students better by the end of the semester, because they are being accountable for themselves.  Because like, for example, in this, you know, environment where we're teaching virtually, I know that some of my students are not committing a hundred percent to what we're working on. I know they're not truly going there, but it's not all of them. And it's not all the time, the same people. So what I told them is that it's on you, you know. You know when you're there, and you know when you're not. Like, for example, I'm teaching an auditions class, a movement class, and a , a sort of musical theater intensive for high school students. So in those three different worlds, those are three different types of people, you know, very much so, but I told them in all three situations, this is an audition class. This is a movement class, and this is a musical theater intensive. You chose to take this class. So there's something you want to work on.
[00:17:35] And all three of those have to do with being prepared at the end of the day. So if you're not going to do the work, I mean, who can you blame? And so what I've noticed is that pushing my students to really take responsibility has made them actually be better at self-evaluations, be better at final products because they know where they sort of, I guess, set back. And it's showing up in their performances and they're able to comment on it in reflection papers. And for me, there's no greater joy than when I can read something a student wrote or even in , you know, verbal format, hearing them be honest about their craft because we all know like, I mean, the business is hard enough. The last thing you want to do is go pointing fingers elsewhere. Right?
[00:18:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think that's really important. It's a great life skill to help them develop to, of take responsibility for yourself. You're in charge of your life. That's very cool.
[00:18:37] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, and it's fun. It's fun. And there are good days and there are bad days. Cause sometimes these--you know, right now with a pandemic going o,n mental health conversations are happening a lot more. And my students are being very forthright with where they are as individual. Particularly  last semester, I mean, I had a lot of students reach out about some things that are going on and, and I'm like, how much can we, as you know ultimately mentors , give them enough tool sets to be able to truly not only be honest about their work, but also be able to keep track of it, to log it and be aware of if there's something consistent. Are you consistently having an issue with something? Are you consistently not showing up to class, whatever it is, whatever that consistent thing is, if it's not on the positive and what are you doing to change that, you know? And that's, that's where I get excited. Whenever I can see my students grow not only as performers, right? But also as a young adults, you know, that's, that's--what a joy.
[00:19:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I've been reflecting on teaching methods and philosophy a lot lately. And I think that there's nothing greater than that. It's, it's so cool to witness those light bulb moments and, and those.... Right? When something finally clicks and it's like, "Ah, yes, you get that!" It's so fun. So yeah. Yeah, it's great. And then the other thing I've been noticing too, is just how special it is when students don't realize how much more they have, and you're able to kind of show them that, and then it's like this, you just watch the transformation on their face, you know, like, "Oh, I, I can turn out that much or I can go that much higher on my releve," or whatever it is. And then they're realizing that. They have all of this and I, I just, that's just such a cool thing too.
[00:20:32] Darnell Benjamin: Yes. Yes. I have a friend right now in Seattle who is doing this research project, particularly on movement, actor movement techniques, but specifically from the perspective of risk, the concept of risk . Are you actually taking a risk with your work, whether that's in the classroom or in performance? Are you really throwing yourself into it and falling flat on your face so that you can learn something? But and you know, even relative to the Suzuki method, which is all about push, trusting that your body can go further than you think it can. And that's not, of course, in a way of abusing the body, not at all. It's more a matter of--like, even thinking about the turnout thing--most recently, I made a post on Facebook about how I was asking for advice because I've always had sort of really tight hips and really getting myself to truly let the legs actually turn out and not force it, but also not halfway go there. I got a lot of great tips and let me tell you, I realized something. It's not that I had such a hard time doing it. It was disciplined. I was not. Like going at it every day. I was really not truly committing to it and taking that risk to throw myself in far enough.
[00:21:52] And the results have been fantastic because I've been doing it every single day. I've set a time for stretching. I've set a time for breathing exercises and I've set a time for just really challenging and going challenging my body and going there because, you know, I mean, obviously I've been in his body and dancing and movement work in general for a while. So I know what my sort of quote unquote safe limitations are, but I've been really trying to push towards the riskier limitations. How far can I take it? How much can I do within the bounds of reason of course, but I'm, I'm noticing all kinds of great results. And it goes to show that sometimes what it boils down to is discipline, you know?
[00:22:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Amen to that.
[00:22:40] Darnell Benjamin: You're right. And especially as a ballet dancer, I am sure you know what I mean.
[00:22:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes. It is definitely the whole idea of consistently showing up and yes, so. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, so then, you know, you've also had an acting career kind of alongside, it sounds like. So you said you had done a lot of Shakespeare work. Is that something that you've gravitated towards more? Do you do all sorts of different theater or, or how did that whole come about?
[00:23:15] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, yeah. So in , in high school I was in, I was one of those nerdy kids in the AP English class, and we did not do any Shakespeare. And I remember being a little confused by that because I assumed we should have . Fast forward to in college, I had my first experience with Shakespeare and I loved it immediately. I'm a person who is very fascinated with language. I'm very fascinated with alliteration, linguistics in general, anything that is about the exploration of the sounds of words and how those sounds affect meaning. For example, like phonetics , all that stuff, I'm fascinated with that. So Shakespeare was like the motherland when I came across it and that kind of opened the door to me making the decision. That's partly why I went to grad school because I wanted more training in Shakespeare. I wanted to get better at it because I'll share a little story with you.
[00:24:10]I went to the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. Go Cajuns. And I'll tell you what--I'll share their story. And I don't say this for any, with any hate towards the university, but in the undergraduate program, specifically getting my BFA in performing arts, one of the professors there at the time, he , he taught all of this sort of, you know, the stage craft and lighting, the tech side. And he was also going to be the one directing "Taming of the Shrew." And I was so excited. It was going to be a summer production, which I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is fun." And they opened it up to the general public. So a bunch of people came in, auditioned for this, and we all watched each other audition. That was the worst part about it. Let me tell you, I could not be bothered with that. Watching people go one after another, getting antsy. But I'm watching people go in. I'm like, "Okay, all right. I'm not like the worst one here. We're going to be all right." And not even in a bad--I didn't mean that in a mean way.
[00:25:12] Even when I thought that it was just more of a, okay. I maybe could actually get a shot at this. And I went up there and did my thing, felt really good. And noticed the , the callback list went up a couple of days later, my name wasn't on it. And I kind of was like,"Eh, okay. That kind of sucks or whatever, but maybe I might still get cast because you know, there's always the chance just because you're not called back doesn't mean you didn't get it." So fast forward to the cast list is going up and I am looking for my name, looking for my name. All the way at the bottom, "Hey! I'm the Habit Asher." Well, when I saw that and I noticed there were people who, and again, you know, there's so many things that go into this, as taste, who knows. But there were so many people who-- like, I mean, some of them didn't even, were not off book at their audition. Some of them who just did, it's almost like they kind of got teleported into a theater. They had no idea what was going on.
[00:26:09] And so I was disappointed that I had gotten this role. So I talked to the stage manager who eventually told me that the instructor ultimately--and the one who was going, and by the way, this is one of my instructors and this was the person who was directing that show-- he said that, "Well, I just don't see black people in Shakespeare unless they're slaves." So that obviously, it was like, "Whoa." I went to talk to the Dean. And I was asked to go back down the ladder and go talk to the head of the department who was new at the time. So he's like, "Hey, you're going to have to go talk to the Dean. I kinda don't have my footing. I don't know any of these people. So, I'm giving you permission to climb up and go talk to the Dean." So I want to talk to the Dean and found out later that there were all of these cases piling up against this person. Everything from sexual harassment to racism to, I mean, it was across the board. And eventually this professor got fired. Yay.
[00:27:09] But, but what it ultimately did, it, it lit a fire under me. And I think I wanted to prove him wrong. That's how it started. It started with me having so much passion for it, the language and being told that, and being hit so hard by that. And so I made a decision that I was really gonna dig into this and like, start to understand it because I really started researching and thinking about it and I'm like, "Oh, wow. There really isn't a lot of black and brown representation in Shakespeare that I'm seeing." So, it became a mission of mine because I never wanted another kid to feel like I felt. I mean, and so I ended up going to University of Houston in which--my goodness, I will say this for any listeners--if you are a physically-inclined actor who is strong with language and want to you to get stronger, that is a great program. The work is very physically inclined, but also very see, hear, smell, touch such detail inclined.
[00:28:05] But fast forward to I finished there and I graduated in 2009 with my MFA and then I bounced around a little bit, landed in Cincinnati. And I started working with the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company in the 2010-11 season. And I've been working there as a resident actor since then. I've also done some Shakespeare elsewhere , but like that's the company that has been my home base with doing Shakespeare, and so Shakespeare is one of the things I do. I love experimental work. I love, I mean, actually it was an experimental company that moved me to Cincinnati, the Know Theater of Cincinnati moved me there. And they're kind of, they call themselves the alternative playground and they do a lot of fun alternative work.
[00:28:48] So, and now, as far as my own personal sort of--what the stuff that I produce and I do on my own--I'm very much what I call, you know, just I'm an arts activist. I love looking at social issues and how we can use art to further the conversation, and deepen it. So a lot of my approach is from a a social issues perspective, and I love, love the movement of expressionism. So that inspires a lot of my work. I mean, come on. Can we please talk about Pina Bausche? Right. Seriously, that kind of work gets me so excited. I love , I love when people can--especially in dance--I love when we can see people turn on its head what we define as dance, because the question becomes, what is dance? And what is the difference between dance and movement?
[00:29:41] I love exploring that middle ground and taking pedestrian things and turning them into dance and exploring how they can be seen as dance. So I guess across the board, whether as an actor or a dancer, I'm very much about looking into, I didn't know, I guess I'm, research-driven. I love exploring and understanding and taking those little risks that, you know, may not work always, but more often than not. I love that it creates a conversation, you know?
[00:30:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Oh yeah, of course. That's one of the most wonderful things about art, is that it does and can create and spark conversation. And that's pretty special 'cause that's, that's when you really get into all the exciting aspects. And what did the artist intend or what did you gather from it? I mean, because both of those things are important and so, yeah, of course.
[00:30:37] Darnell Benjamin: Right? Absolutely. I mean, I even hate whenever I do my work, it's so important to me to make sure that I'm not telling my audience how to feel. I love to challenge the audience, whether that's through theater or dance.  I definitely, when it comes down to dance, I'm very inspired by also Mary Overlie and looking at viewpoints and exploring that to even create. So that way I don't, because, you know, we all have the, you know, we all have our tricks, the things that we're good at and that we can pull out at the drop of a dime. But I love figuring out, "Okay. All right, which of these viewpoints do I suck at?" Let's start playing with that. So that's something I like to try and do at, you know, and, and let's be real. Sometimes it's a pass and sometimes it's a fail.
[00:31:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, of course, but you never know until you try.
[00:31:30] Darnell Benjamin: Exactly and failure is fun. Failure is how we have an opportunity to learn of course, and, and, and try something different, you know? Yeah. So for me, it's like failure is just an opportunity to learn something.
[00:31:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, and that's a great perspective. So you had mentioned kind of briefly in passing you, you mentioned kind of the expressionist movement that's something that really compels you, but I wonder if you could just define that a little bit more and talk about what exactly you see that as being just since we might not all be familiar with that.
[00:32:05] Darnell Benjamin: Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. I know a lot of people are familiar with, you know, the scream painting and that is from like an expression as peace. It ultimately, and you know, the best way I could describe it, obviously it's in the way that I understand it and how I perceive expressionist movement being is digging into the feeling, what is the feeling that this art wants to portray. And instead of going from, you know, a linear direction with, here's a story with a beginning, middle, and an end, whether that's a play or for example, with a piece of art, you can just , you know, you can draw, for example, paint the Mona Lisa. But, or what you can do, you can paint what Mona Lisa feels like, what is, what is it that you want that piece of art to evoke? What is that feeling at the core? And that's for me, what expressionism is, it's about really tapping into not focusing on what we know as our realistic world, but instead exploring what is this world, this specific world in this piece of art and letting that tell the story.
[00:33:12] Like, for example , contemporary --oh, well, not that contemporary--but Edward Scissorhands, that's a, that's a perfect expressionist film because it created a world that was, yes, we recognize that these are human beings, but the distortion of the character of Edward, even thinking about the those bushes and how he would make these pieces of art with these bushes and that big castle that he lived in, all of that is very expressionism. You have, of course, the iconic film that most people know because It all stems from Germany. There's a lot of stuff out there that explores the exaggeration of things to tell the truth of what that story is.
[00:33:53] And as far as in my personal work , I actually got to do my first film. I directed and choreographed a film, which is kind of mind-blowing that that even happened. But , so I was, I was inspired by , so for instance, so I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, and there were in 2001, there was the murder of a young black man, 19 years old by the name of Timothy. Timothy Thomas. And this was a kid who had a bunch of, you know, minor parking violations, things like that, tickets, stuff like that. And he was followed and he started running and he ran down this alley. Long story short, he , there are a lot of different reports of what possibly happened, but the gist of it is that he was trying to lift up his pants to climb over a fence. And he was shot because they thought he was going to be reaching into his pocket for a gun.
[00:34:44] And we all know we are in the midst of another round of this movement of the Black Lives Matter conversation. And, this has happened far too often. We know this happened back in 2001. And prior to that, there was  a man by the name of Roger Owens B. Jr, where this happened in Cincinatti. So for me, I started looking at the repetition of this conversation and how we keep circling back to it. And instead of, and what I found myself leaning towards is we keep talking about it in this sort of sense of understanding of, look, this or here's point A, here's point B. This is what happened. This is the result. And I think it's a lot richer than that. And a lot deeper than that.
[00:35:27] I started leaning into the direction of mental health and that's I think at the core of the problem. And so I started thinking about over time, what are the effects of this repeated trauma on the black community and how are the ways that it manifests itself? And that's when I started , you know, putting this piece together and thank goodness , the company, Walter Hoop, which is an amazing company, please check them out: walterhoop.com. They are an arts center organization that plays in all the different mediums. They play in with podcasts. They play with theater. They do live productions, dance recently, with this film that I did. And they, they want it to produce this and we collaborated. The music is insane and the music matched up immediately with this concept I wanted to play with, which was thinking about how can we have this conversation, but look at it through the lens of mental health.
[00:36:27] So every single shot for me had to be, it was important that the choreography, the writing, which was, which was done by Tyrone Williams and it's a sort of, it's ultimately poetry. I wanted it all to feel abstract. I wanted it to feel familiar, but not . I wanted it to feel claustrophobic. I wanted it to feel all these things that heightened our emotions. And you know, and also in the midst of all that conversation, I wanted there to be joy despite all of the hurt , the lack of understanding. So at the end of the film, there is a -- it, it sort of, kind of goes through an evolution. Now granted, I didn't go--for anybody who might see this film-- which is called "13 the Republic"--I, if you are familiar with expressionism, please know that I didn't go like hardcore, literal expressionism all in. No, I actually played with a mixture of finding, pulling the things from expressionism that worked for me, which was looking at the feeling, what do I want? The, what is this feeling and how can I create that through movement? How can I create that through text? That's kind of how I lean into it 'cause a lot of expressionism, you're not going to have traditional scenery.
[00:37:42]Automize scenery in the film is very much actual streets and actual grass and actual parks, but where I kind of went more towards an expressionist direction in terms of scenery, it was in two scenes where I played with, what is it? What would it look like if we're inside of the main character's head? What does that look like? So there's this, there's a couple of scenes where I leaned into that. But yeah, that's, that's overall how I would describe expressionism in how I utilize it. I hope that makes sense.
[00:38:15] Lindsey Dinneen: That was perfect. And first of all, oh my goodnes, congratulations. That is such a huge accomplishment to have gotten to work on that film. And holy cow, that is a huge congratulations and, and, and kudos to you for starting that conversation and addressing things that really need to be talked about. And I so admire what you said, your intentionality behind the way that those scenes were portrayed and everything is just so amazing. I love hearing the background behind it, and why you chose things the way you did. But also, you know, choosing to bring out an element of joy despite everything I think is just huge. So, oh, my gosh. I cannot personally wait to see this film. Where can we watch this film?
[00:39:11] Darnell Benjamin: Oh yes, you can go to 13thandrepublic.com. And so that's one, three, and it's spelled out and AND republic.com and that's where you can go check it out. And it's an interactive website. That's the really cool thing is that Walter Hoop wanted to make sure that, because originally this was going to be a live production, but we are in the midst of a pandemic. And that's why we did it as a film. And even the film-- just in case anybody's wondering--we did it in August and it was done absolutely with every bit of social distancing and safety in mind. And I found a way even to incorporate masks in the show, in the film. So I found a way to do that. So we went through a lot of lengths to make sure that because, you know, it will be very ironic if you have these this cast of five black actors and dancers performing and they get COVID. You know what I mean? That was not going to happen.
[00:40:07] So it was very important, it was very important to me to make sure that they were safe and not even just them, but also me. And as far as this film, you know, I thank you for even like, 'cause it's, it really is mind blowing to me because it's funny how life has a way of surprising you: here we are in the midst of a pandemic and we were working on, I mean, this film was being worked on prior to the pandemic. We were prepping for filming and then the pandemic hit and we had to push filming back but the rehearsals had to get pushed back for what was going to be a live production because you can't, in my opinion, you know, when you want to talk about social issues and you want to talk about ,  how do we manage this?
[00:40:49] And the only way we can manage this is to have the conversation. And part of that conversation is a communal experience. And we couldn't have that because of the pandemic. So I'm really excited to share this information that I applied for a grant through a local organization here called Arts Wave. And they had this grant for what they call it A Truth and Reconciliation Grant. And I got one of those. And so the goal is that we're going to, we connect it with an organization. I can't say who yet, because it's not public just yet, but we connected with an organization where we're going to take the film out of the urban downtown areas and bring it into the suburbs and the rural areas as part of a showcase of the film. And there's going to be a live element involved with it. And also they're can, it's going to be a Q&A where we get to actually interact with the people who are outside of the thick of , you know , city council and the courthouse and all of that world.
[00:41:45]So it's really, because for me, the reason why I do what I do is to truly, truly have the conversation. And the only way we can do that is if we step out of our comfort zones and take that risk. And part of the risk for me was getting away from the place that I know, and from the people that already know what I do and going out into these neighborhoods where hopefully we will get welcomed. And obviously there's the chance that we will not, but the way I'm looking at it is that if I don't do this, I'm not doing this film the service it deserves, which is to be seen by the people who are not having these conversations, to be seen by the people who may be disagree with this conversation.
[00:42:28] But how nice would it be if we can actually have a dialogue? So that's, that's kinda the next phase of it, which I'm really excited about, but yes, just as a reminder, that's one, three and republic.com and it's an interactive website. So check it out. You get to, there are some interviews that are really cool where we interviewed the cast members to get their perspective and also the , the people on the creative team. So across the board, it's, it's beyond me because in my experience of creating, this is the first time I have ever gotten to do something exactly the way I wanted to do it, and absolutely being truthful to not only my personal mission as an artist, but to who I am as a , as a black queer man. So for me, I've never been prouder of something. Because it's, it's truly every internal experience thought that I've had in a film. It's kind of terrifying because in some ways, it's a little so vulnerable, it feels a little kind of invasive to share it, but it needed to be shared.
[00:43:36] And I think that I, I can't wait until we start having the conversation of mental health in, in tandem with conversations on social issues, because they're not separate. It's all connected. And I, I can't wait till we see, to see more artists, more scholars, more across-the-board people finding ways to connect those dots and really dig into the heart of what's going on within each of these social issues.
[00:44:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, my word. Well, I, I'm just sitting here smiling. Congratulations. This is so cool everything that you're doing ,and just congratulations on this grant and this new opportunity to expand your reach and to step out of your comfort zone. And, oh my goodness. I commend you. I think it's hard to be that vulnerable and put yourself out there. Oh my word. But that, but telling who you are and your truth and your story, that is so compelling. And that's going to, I just know that's going to have an impact on people's lives. It's going to spark those conversations that will hopefully actually make some change happen. And just think that you are a huge part of that. That is so cool because you had the courage to be vulnerable. So, oh, my word so much respect, kudos to you.
[00:44:59] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. That's very kind.
[00:45:00]Lindsey Dinneen: That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:45:19]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about The SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. That is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format, ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joyful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

Episode 039 - Jaja Smith

In today's episode, I welcome Jaja Smith! Jaja is an actor, filmmaker, photographer, and influencer. He is the host of new podcast, "Just a Thought," and has starred in the web series, "Quarter Water Juices." He shares his thoughts about becoming an actor, continuing to take acting classes to sharpen his skills, starting a podcast, being the one behind the camera instead of in front of one, and so much more. With sound advice for beginners, and lots of great stories along the way, JaJa's influence is always intended to create positive change. (Fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is Jaja's podcast cover art!)
 
Get in touch with Jaja Smith: https://www.facebook.com/jaja.k.smith | https://www.instagram.com/jaja.smith/ | https://anchor.fm/jaja-smith 
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Episode 39 - Jaja Smith
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:14] Roman: All I can put my part out into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experiences as so beautiful.
[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Jaja Smith. He is an actor, filmmaker and influencer, and the host of a brand new podcast, as well as so many other artistic endeavors. I can just tell from our brief intro conversation. So I'm so excited to have you. Thank you so much for being here today.
[00:01:01] Jaja Smith: Oh, thank you for having me, Lindsey. It's such a pleasure. I am, I'm excited. I'm excited to debunk and just talk art and all things creatives.
[00:01:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Excellent. My favorite thing. Okay. So I would love if you would share just a little bit maybe about your background, kind of what got you involved in art, and then maybe a little bit about what you're up to these days.
[00:01:22] Jaja Smith: Sure. So for me, it's actually kind of funny. Yeah. I started as an athlete. I was an athlete and a musician. So music was my first intro to art. And then I just, over the course of time, you know, I did what we were supposed to do, which it was, you know, the college thing and, you know, try to get a job and stuff. And I just got to a point where I just, I dropped out and I was like, this isn't, this isn't enough. I don't feel fulfilled. And I just, as soon as I did that, a web series fell into my lap, "Quarter Water Juices." And we did two seasons. And then once that ended for me, I had the bug. I was like, how do I keep going? How do I continue acting? And so I found my acting class, Cincinnati Actor's Studio, and I have just been going now for five years strong. And, you know, it's been a, a beautiful journey, you know, finding agencies and learning learning the business behind all this and just continuing to develop myself. And I realized the more people I play , the more I learn about life, 'cause you're seeing life through the characters that you portray. So that's really cool.
[00:02:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so. Oh, my goodness. I have so many questions. There's one in my mind, but first of all, so I'm really kind of curious, because the first thing I thought about when you mentioned getting to play other characters has sort of helped you understand life even better. Do you have any sort of, did it kind of help develop additional empathy? 'Cause I know that's kind of-- you would think that maybe embodying other characters might, might help you realize more and more about just humanity? I'm just curious.
[00:03:05] Jaja Smith: A hundred percent, because you know, when you play these characters, you have to walk a mile in their shoes, you know, you really have to think about, okay, how did, how did their -- what's their point of view? You know, how do they handle conflict? You know, what happened to them for, to get them to this point? And, you know, when, when I play these characters, I find it interesting when people feel the need to method act. You know, if you're playing a psychopath, but there's no need for you to go out and be a psychopath before you play this role. But I understand, right, right? Everybody has a layer, they love somebody died and that's what set them off. So, you know, you, you picture what it would be like to lose that, that person for you. And then, your whole basis is heartbreak. So, when you start to peel the onion back, you know, and all the layers, you really start to see, like, people are people. You know, there are still your, your terrible people in the world, your Hitlers, your Castros, and all those things, but they're they're still people. They just made a series of decisions that took them in a very different direction.
[00:04:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever played a character that you absolutely hate,  like somebody that you just, you could not-- you obviously would do well, you know, portraying this character--but that you just could not align with who they were, so to speak.
[00:04:33] Jaja Smith: Role-wise, not yet. I, I'm sure that that role, that's coming, but I did an audition for a, a deputy--or I was an officer--I was an officer and he was just very pompous. And you, he couldn't be told anything by his superiors or anything like that. And for me, I was just like, "This guy's just a, just a jerk." Ooh, if I had to meet this person, I want to like fight this person or something. Like, I'm just like, why, why are people like this? But we'll see if I get the role. So then I'll be able to say yes. Yes, Lindsey. I did.
[00:05:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair enough. We'll check back in. Okay. Perfect. So, obviously your career as an actor, it sounds like, you know, you've gotten to do a few different roles now--have you done mostly things for film? Have you also done any theater work or is it sort of a combination of all of that?
[00:05:32] Jaja Smith: So thus far from me, I have done predominantly film. Now, I am not turned off to theater. Like, theater is one of those things that terrifies the heck out of me because you get one take. So it is like, if you miss a note or you forget a line, then you have to figure it out from there. And I try my best to do all of the things that scare me. So when an opportunity comes up for me to be in a play, I will jump at it. Terrified, but I will jump at it.
[00:06:05] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Yes. Somebody--I will not remember who to attribute this to--but I remember somebody once talked about how you should do something every day that scares you. It doesn't have to be big, just a little something to help you grow every day. And I kind of hung on to that. I like that idea that, you know, you can, you can be afraid and do it anyway, right?
[00:06:31] Jaja Smith: Yeah.
[00:06:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. And so then you're taking classes regularly, I'm imagining, still, is that correct?
[00:06:39] Jaja Smith: Yes. Yes, I am.
[00:06:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So it's, it's interesting to me because you're getting paid to do this, you are a professional, but so you still place a lot of importance on your own growth and learning opportunities. Do you feel that you will continue taking classes for the foreseeable future is that sort of the way that it works, I'm not as familiar with this world. So I'm really, really curious.
[00:07:01] Jaja Smith: The, the beauty of this is you will never be a master at this, you know, because there, the basics are always something that will always require you to be brushed up on, you know, keeping sharp. This is definitely one of those industries where you, you are only as good as your last film. So when you move on to your in--in the in-between time for your previous and your latter, you still have to develop yourself and continue to sharpen, sharpen that craft, that tool of yours. So, I will take classes the rest of my life indefinitely because there's always something to be learned.
[00:07:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that perspective. Yeah. I agree with you. I think artists in general are probably like that in a lot of ways. It's just, it's art, right? So it's subjective and there's no, there's no one thing to achieve that's like, "Oh, I made it." And then there's nothing else to do, right? You can always grow and improve. And so, yeah, kudos to you. That's really, really cool.
[00:08:06] Jaja Smith: I, I was hoping somebody might tell Orson Welles the same thing because with "Citizen Kane," he created the perfect film for that time. So for him, he was like, "I don't know what else to do. You know, I'm 24 years old and I made the perfect film. So what happens now?" And so he just didn't do a whole lot.
[00:08:24]Lindsey Dinneen:   And maybe if he had taken some more classes, he could have. I love it.
[00:08:28] Jaja Smith: We'll never know, you know, but we, we appreciate "Citizen Kane" and for everything that he made and created it for us. So I give it back to the, to the historian himself.
[00:08:39] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go well. Okay. So you also mentioned being a filmmaker. So what kinds of things have you been working on and what did that journey look like?
[00:08:49] Jaja Smith: I really enjoy the writing process. I truly, truly do, because for me, if I can create something that you, as the reader and my audience can read and see it playing out throughout, and it's just fluid, then I know that I'm doing my job. Personally as a writer, and you know, something else that I've learned throughout this process is I can't do it by myself. Like, there are so many pieces in so many unknowns and unknown unknowns that I'm just like, I, I can't keep it all together. So it's, it's definitely humbled me a lot to realize. And it's, it's a relief at the same time because I realized I don't have to do it all by myself. You know, I have all of these, these different, you know, actors and people in the industry who look, who just wants to create something great. And so, you know, to be able to put my script on the table and say, "Hey, what do you guys think about this?" And everybody jumps on board. It's encouraging. You know, I think it's really encouraging. And I think there's a lot of people here in Cincinnati and you know, all over the, all over the world who just want to get that start. And sometimes you don't know where to go. So, you know, for me just to be able to kind of jump into things, it's just really, really exciting.
[00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any current projects in the works either for your filmmaking or for acting currently?
[00:10:19] Jaja Smith: No. I did just brush the dust off of a project that I had written a little while ago and I have a feeling it may be coming to fruition here soon.
[00:10:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, how exciting. Okay. Well, we'll have to keep in touch in and find out what that all looked like. I'm excited. Excellent. Okay. And so then I know all of this is only a small little snippet of all the different things that you do. You recently started a podcast, is my understanding. You want to share a little bit about that and that journey?
[00:10:52] Jaja Smith: Yes. So "Just a Thought" is one of the things that terrified me because, you know, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to have a solid content or talk too much or not talk enough. But for me, "Just a Thought" has been--it's, it's a vehicle for people to take, you know, situations and, you know, we, we are one mind. So to be able to give a secondary perspective on, you know, different situations that we all go through and to be able to-- I'm geeky in the sense of, I love philosophy, you know, Seneca, Emerson , Socrates, the whole thing. And to be able to take the thoughts and the practices of these philosophers and make them applicable to today and the situations that, you know, we may come to come with, come into contact with. So, I just really want to spread positivity and help people wherever I can. And so I saw that the the podcast may be the best way to do it. And, you know, with each thought that I have, for every episode, I realized that I'm truly just talking to myself. If anything, it's just like a reaffirmation journal entry. And that ends up being this really nice thing that I can have and carry with me and, you know, help other people along the way.
[00:12:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. So is it something that it's, it is just your thoughts, or do you have guests? Is it kind of interview based or is it mostly just, you know, taking your, your own learning and ideas and kind of putting them into positive, you know, affirmations for, for yourself and others?
[00:12:31] Jaja Smith: It's funny you should ask that because I just posted last week my first episode, but it's a baby. Yeah, we are, we are the baby steps. So for me, my first episode was on my own, but I know that, you know, come time--because everybody has a story-- I want to open up the door for people to be able to share that story. It was, it was really interesting and I was so grateful for this. I posted my first episode and then I had someone stop me at the gym and was like, "Hey, I listened to this." And how relatable it was to something that they just went through. And I was like, "Okay. I, I have to have you talk about this and we have to pick this up apart." and I was like, "This is, this is amazing!" So I was like, this wouldn't have happened if I didn't do this. And so it was just a really, really special moment. And so I will definitely be having people on to be able to tell their story, because again, I am one conscious mind and I don't think we are supposed to work on a linear plane. So I would definitely love to, you know, bring some people on and have a couple episodes where I just talk about what, you know, it was weighing on my heart that day.
[00:13:44] Lindsey Dinneen: That's perfect. I love that. I think magic happens with collaboration and I think it's exciting that you can do some of both. And I think that's the perfect platform for that. And, oh, what a great story too about, you know, that immediate feedback from somebody who goes, "Hey, Thank you. I, I've been there too. And that was such a helpful perspective." I mean, gosh, talk about encouragement right out the gate. I love it. That's fantastic. Good. I'm so glad.
[00:14:12] Jaja Smith: My coffee that morning tasted so sweet.
[00:14:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love it. Yes. Excellent. Well, okay. So I know you kind of refer to yourself as an influencer and podcasting is obviously a fantastic way to do that, but you have other avenues for art as well if I'm not mistaken. Do you want to share about some of the other things that you're involved with as well?
[00:14:32] Jaja Smith: Yes. So I've recently, in the last couple of months, have dabbled in the art of photography. And I never realized because I've been in front of the camera so much, you know, as an actor and as a model that I'd never realized, you know, just how much it does for the, the eye of a photographer and the heart of the model. Because I, I think oftentimes like modeling gets lost in translation of, "Oh, you're just pick a pose and you and the photographer shoots it." But it's like, no, this is a story being told here. Like, I, you are, you are choosing an emotion. Like if I ever modeled for anyone I ask, "What is one emotion that you want us to sell? What is the story that we're telling here?" And now it just becomes this, this beautiful, like, play back and forth between the photographer and the model that the people who see the final product get to get to kind of live through. You know, people admire the photo.
[00:15:38] But, you know, I realized when I, you know, show my friends who are creatives, they're like, oh, you're, there's confidence here, but you're dealing with something in this photo and it's just, it's just this really cool thing. So to know that, you know, I was able to capture--'cause I'm not always playing myself when I'm playing a model--but to be able to say that they, they saw what, what my self and the photographer, or myself in the model were going for, that lets me know that I did my job. And then as a photographer to see the confidence boost in the model, you know, because I I've shot a lot of people who'd never really saw themselves as models before. And so to be able to shoot them and kind of bring that to life and just see this, this vigor in them, I'm just like, ah, this is a high, this is why it's harder for us to do this. So for me, that's probably been the most special part about that particular art.
[00:16:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's such a great perspective. I'm so glad that you shared that with us, 'cause I think, like you said, there are misconceptions about maybe modeling or, or even acting and things like that, where we just, those of us who aren't part of it don't necessarily understand everything that goes into it and what it takes. And it, like you said, it's not just standing there and making a pose, it's telling a story and it's, and it's work. I mean, you know, there's no-- Right. I mean, so, that's so interesting. I'm actually, it kind of begs a question of, what are some of the misconceptions that you have had to maybe help overcome or help educate when it comes to some of the art forms that you're involved with, maybe specifically modeling and acting, even filmmaking? I'm sure, you know, there are some misconceptions that you kind of are able to help people understand, "Oh, it's actually this."
[00:17:40] Jaja Smith: Oh, yes. So for acting, especially because that is my meat and potatoes, my bread and butter. So I love unpacking these things with acting. It requires a certain level of vulnerability. You can't just jump in front of a camera and then play yourself because you're lying to yourself. When I do a scene with my scene partner, it requires a certain level of trust not just in the person that you're doing the scene with, but with yourself. You have to let go of a lot of inhibitions and say, "Okay, I'm fully here. I'm fully present, not just in front of this class, but as this person that I have chosen to play. I have a job to do first and foremost."  I have a responsibility to this person that I'm playing to do them justice. I look at acting sometimes as I am the PR, I am the lawyer of the character that I am portraying. And so I have a due diligence to make sure that their story gets told and that they get what it is that they need. So, and I never want to cheat that because I think that that's something really special.
[00:18:53] Another misconception is that it's, it's easy. You know, I feel the longer I'm in this industry, there is such a business to this. You know, it's not just, I'm this pretty person, and I'm going to show up and they're going to pick me now. A lot of the job is, do you look the part? But that only gets you the job, but when you get there, you can easily lose the job because you didn't give the director what they wanted. So that's another reason why continuing to sharpen your tool, your acting ability, is so important because you have to keep the job just like any of them. The business aspect of this industry is, is something that I am progressively learning. I'm learning to ask a lot of questions almost to the annoying fault, but I just want to understand it so that way I can be the best person I can be on a set, for the director or with my partners, the rest of the cast and crew. I just want to make sure that I'm doing due diligence where I can.
[00:19:59] So I think, it's very easy for people to get caught up in just watching a movie and saying, "Oh, I can do that." I promise it's so much deeper than that. You know, 'cause I'm sure we've all thought it at one point or another. You know, I remember being a kid and watching "Space Jam," and you know, you've watched it a hundred times. So now you like start moving with the movie and you start quoting it. And you know, I, it's funny 'cause we've always, we've all, all been actors at a time in our life, from birth or a baby. You know, my, my coach, he made a point, he was like, "When you wanted to eat, you cried. You didn't have to cry, but you just cried. And then, because you knew you would get what you wanted." And so, throughout life, we do what we believe is necessary to get that thing. Or, you know what, we as actors call a bridge. It's like, "I want this. So to do this, I will do this to get my scene partner on my mom to give me that juice." You know what I mean? Like, when you break it down like that, you're like, "Oh, I guess I really have been doing this for longer than five years, but I've just been doing it, you know, with the intent of acting for five years." So those are just some of the things that off the top of my head, I would say are common misconceptions.
[00:21:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for, yeah, shedding some light into that. And I, I love that. I think that a lot of times, you know, art is perceived to be very glamorous. If you're an artist on any level, it's very glamorous and, you know, there are those moments where it feels, it feels lovely and very, very glamorous, but then there's all the hard work behind it. And I think it's important to talk about that too, because time is not equally spent. The glamor happens, what 5%?
[00:21:52] Jaja Smith: Right. And that's at a certain level. Like that's not a thing right now. It's a lot of hurry up and wait like, "Oh, we need you here at seven o'clock. Now you're going to sit here for six hours before we actually need you." It's not this beautiful, it's not this glamorous thing that we see on TV by any means. Like this is such false advertising.
[00:22:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup, yup. Yup, exactly. But it's good. And, when you're willing to put in the work, there are those opportunities for such incredible reward, but, but it is hard work. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm curious, are there any particular moments that you've had that really stand out to you as sort of basically moments to remember, where you may be encountered art or you were a part of art and you just had this like encounter that was something to tuck away and think about later?
[00:22:43] Jaja Smith: So my first big city audition was in New York City. And you know, this was probably my first, first year. Yes, it was my first year in acting, like going to pursue this as an endeavor and it, it was such a special moment because I learned so much. I learned that my confidence will tell the casting director everything that they need to know, and without it, you know, if they, if I don't believe in me, then neither can they.  I would say there was a feature length film that I was a part of and I had a monologue, and it was just one of those things to where I... I've always learned, I've always been taught by my coach to never break, you know, let the director tell you to cut. And, you know, I'm doing this monologue and I know that I'm missing a line, that my face gave me away that I forgot, but I kept going. And then at the end, the person that I was delivering this monologue to that when the director said, cut said, "Hey, man, that was great." So it was just one of those beautiful moments to where it's, if you trust the character, the words don't matter so much. Like people will forget what you said and remember how you made them feel.
[00:24:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.
[00:24:07] Jaja Smith: So now that was a really special one. So those are, those are the two.
[00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Those are great. Thank you. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I have a couple questions that I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that, all subjective.
[00:24:21] Jaja Smith: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. So the first one is , how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:24:30] Jaja Smith: Art is expression. Art is a hundred percent expression. You know, whether you are a painter or you are a, a sketch artist or a actor, or whatever your canvas is, it's this release of energy. Some people don't know how to articulate themselves. So for them to be able to have this outlet, it's this beautiful thing. And then when it comes out, sometimes it's angry. Sometimes it's heartbroken. I remember very vividly my dad passed away on the night of an acting class, but I had to go because I didn't know how to handle my emotions outside of that. And you know, my, my acting class is my family, but I just needed that, that outlet, you know, it was just one of those things. It's like air almost. I think for a lot of other artists out there, I think art is their microphone to tell the world how they really feel, and in the way that best articulates it for them.
[00:25:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:25:41] Jaja Smith: To be honest, because we as people have dealt with enough bologna sandwich that, you know, it doesn't do anything for anyone, if you're just doing something for the sake of the adoration or the sake of a finished product. But if you're true and you're intentional and you're authentic, I mean, that is the product that people can truly get on board with. You know, I think that that is to not just to people, but also to the work itself, and then to the artists, because there have been a few times I may have flubbed or played it safer. And then, you know, I stepped back and the scene is over and, you know, I was just like, "What are you doing?" Like you, you know that you cheated yourself and you're like, "Why did I do that?" So the biggest thing to me is just be honest, be authentic with your work and everything that you do. You know, I don't see any need to talk about things that you don't understand. You know, like if, if you're a music artist, that's like, you know, tell your story. You know, you have a story. And it's beautiful. I mean, it's yours and it deserves to be told.
[00:26:46] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question--and I'll define my terms a little bit--is do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to an artist who puts something out into the world and provides some context behind that? Whether it's show notes or a title or the inspiration behind it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts his or her work out there, but doesn't provide context, and essentially leaves it completely up to the viewer to interpret it the way they will.
[00:27:21] Jaja Smith: That's such a good question because I, I can appreciate both. And Jordan Peele is, is such a believer of the exclusive, you know, he just kind of puts a film out and he says, "You know, what's it mean to you? Like, what do you see?" And when it's exclusive it creates such a beautiful dialogue for people because, if you don't know, then you're just sharing perspectives with everybody who's seen this piece of work. But if it's inclusive--you know, I'm definitely going to side with exclusive--but if it's inclusive and you can allow people to see the project through your eyes or the piece of art through your eyes and how you intended it... But I really think, art should be left up for interpretation because when you go to a movie, you're not looking to see how the director wants you to see it.  You're picking the film apart scene by scene and trying to understand, "Okay, I want to know what the main character was like before the movie started. And like, why are they like this?"  I think we live in a society where we do enough being told what to think and letting that be it. But for me, I think art is truly meant to be exclusive in the sense of, you know, think for yourself and tell me what you see. And nine times out of 10, they're going to tell you that you're right, because it is your thought and it is what my art says to you.
[00:28:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I liked that because that's a pretty unique perspective in the way that you communicated that of, of being able to think for yourself and interpret it the way that is meaningful to you. And I think there's a lot of value there. So that's, that's definitely cool. Thank you for sharing that. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your stories and all the exciting things you have going on, and just, you're very inspiring. I'm so excited to continue to kind of watch your journey. And I would love if anyone who is listening to this episode would like to get in contact with you or follow your path, is there a way for them to do that?
[00:29:42] Jaja Smith: Yes. So I am on Instagram. My Instagram is Jaja.Smith. Very simple, very plain. My podcast is "Just a Thought." And I am also on Facebook as Jaja Smith. You know, I post a lot of when my projects are coming out, I will make sure to dish all of those things out there. And, you know, I'm, I'm pretty approachable. You know, if you reach out to me, you have a thought or something, then I'm very quick and very open to just sharing a dialogue because  life is short, you know, you never know who you're gonna meet in life.
[00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Well, and so what would be your one biggest piece of advice for someone who would be interested in being an actor?
[00:30:32] Jaja Smith: Find a great class. And I mean, you just have to start. I think a lot of times, a lot of actors, especially here, locally that I know for sure, we stand idle whether it be fear, or we just don't think we'll be good at it. I think it's very important to just move, and it does the body good. Find a good class and absorb as much as you can, and understand that the world is your playground.  I can't tell you how many times that I've gone about my day and then just met somebody that I didn't know, and I just played a completely different person just to see, is this authentic? Does it work? And then, of course I leave the person and I say, "Hey, by the way...."-- and then I go back to being who I am, and I'm a local actor-- "did that, did I sell that to you?" And they're like, "Dude, that was amazing!" It's just, it's fun, not just for myself. And it keeps the, the craft of acting very, very light and fun and enjoyable. But it does the same thing for the, for the people around me. So just continually be a student of the game. That's, that's probably the biggest thing that I would say, and just find a class and do it, because you might be the next Robert Downey Jr. or Cate Blanchett or something, and you just don't give yourself that opportunity.
[00:32:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Great advice, thank you so much. Thank you so much again for being here and sharing your stories and all of your adventures. I just so appreciate it. And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share it with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:32:27] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
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Episode 038 - Jami Robben

In today's episode, I welcome Jami Robben! Jami is a professional dancer with VidaDance Company as well as a student majoring in journalism and minoring in Spanish at the Univeristy of Missouri. She shares about her unique path from teaching herself dance movements from videos on YouTube to taking in-person dance classes to apprenticing with a professional company and beyond, as well as her latest endeavor, being the Director of National Dance Week Kansas City. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is of Jami dancing in a performance with VidaDance!) 
 
Get in touch with Jami Robben: robben.jami@gmail.com
Learn more about National Dance Week Kansas City: https://www.facebook.com/NDWKC | https://www.instagram.com/nationaldanceweekkc/ 
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Episode 38 - Jami Robben
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very delighted to have as my guest today, the absolutely wonderful Jami Robben. She is a dancer, currently, a student at college, and also has done so many other different kinds of art forms. And I'm just so excited to have her as my guest today. Thank you, Jami, so much for being here.
[00:01:00] Jami Robben: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited!
[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay! Well, please do tell me a little bit about maybe your background, how you first started getting into maybe not just dance, but other art forms as well, and sort of where you are now, if that's okay.
[00:01:16] Jami Robben: Yeah, yeah, of course. So I actually started out as a swimmer. I grew up swimming. That was kind of my thing. I did it with my sister and so I never really was put in any kind of, like, dance or anything like that. And especially having five older sisters, you know, they, they all kind of did it and were interested in it. So when it came to me, my parents were kinda like, "Okay, we'll just let her figure it out." So it really wasn't until--I think it was the 2008 Olympics--when I saw gymnastics. And I was like, "Okay, like, I definitely want to do that. That looks so much fun." So I started taking gymnastics classes, but the only thing I would do is the floor. I hated the bars and the beam and the volt, and I just refused to do it. And I remember my gymnastics coach went up to my dad and was like, "You know, she--I don't know if this is the sport for her, she just does not want to do anything. And you know, maybe you should try putting her in dance too. Just seems like she really likes the floor."
[00:02:26]And then I went home and was watching TV and I saw "Dance Moms" and I was like, "Okay, maybe I should start dancing." But at that point, my parents were kinda like, "I feel like you've tried a lot of sports and just haven't really stuck with it." So maybe wait it out a little bit. So they didn't end up putting me in any classes. So I ended up going on YouTube and just YouTubed doing all sorts of different videos and tutorials with dance. And of course on "Dance Moms," they'd go and do competitions. And I was like, "I want to do that too." So I ended up enrolling myself in a competition with no studio or no training. And, I choreographed myself a dance, made myself a costume, cut myself some music, and went to the competition and ended up getting third place. And ever since then, I just kept dancing, and it wasn't until I met Lindsey, when I first started taking actual dance classes and training with that. And ever since I've just been dancing along.
[00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. Yeah. Okay. So, so many questions are popping in my mind. First of all, kudos to you for being so brave to--I cannot imagine your level of bravery, honestly--to be like, "Okay, I've learned a few things off of YouTube. I kind of know sort of the way that things go, and I'm just going to dive in and do it." So, wow.
[00:04:06] Jami Robben: I think I didn't even know the weight that a competition had on a lot of people. And I just kind of walked in and was like, "Okay, this is cool." And then I'm seeing all these girls, you know, like training, like ridiculous amounts for these competitions. And I was like, "I did not realize they were this serious."
[00:04:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Probably a bit of a culture shock, but honestly, coming at it that way was probably a lot better because, I mean, I'm sure you felt a little bit of nervousness or nervous energy, but you wouldn't have had nearly the level that maybe some of these other girls and boys did when they were coming in from a really, really serious, like "we have to win" kind of mentality. So, there you go!
[00:04:50] Jami Robben: Well, I definitely remember being nervous, but it, it probably wasn't for the same reasons the other dancers were nervous. I think I was more nervous that I was like, "I don't even know." I just remember being so nervous, but not even about like forgetting my dance or anything. It was more so I was like, "I just paid all this money of my allowance to this competition. I hope I get a trophy."
[00:05:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Awww! Priorities, people. Let's be real.
[00:05:20] Jami Robben: I was like, "I don't care what I place, I just want a trophy to take home."
[00:05:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Awww, and you did! That's fantastic. I love it. I love it. Okay. And I'm so curious. So do you think having had the background--and granted you didn't continue with these, which is totally fine--but having the background in swimming and gymnastics, I mean, obviously those kinds of activities are really strength building. Do you think they ended up helping you in any way in your dance in the future?
[00:05:49] Jami Robben: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think swim really brought up my endurance to be able to perform, well, when I did gymnastics. And then of course, gymnastics, you learn so many acro tricks that you can use in dance in, especially in competition dance. I feel like acro and tricks is really big in the competition dance world. And so I feel like it definitely gave me an upper hand in the fact that I wasn't necessarily trained in dance, but I could do acro tricks. And so I guess it gave me a little bit more of a dancer kind of, you know, way to compete. But I, for sure think, if I didn't have those two backgrounds, I don't think I would have kept doing competitions, 'cause I don't think I would've gotten anywhere with them.
[00:06:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. The endurance for sure. And that's something that's hard to build up that kind of stamina if you aren't doing cardio related things. Even as a dancer, it can be difficult 'cause we do a lot of bursts of cardio and then a lot of more sort of resting and then bursts. And so it's, it's harder to build up that endurance over time. So that's cool. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So, and then, okay, so you had that first competition and then how many competitions did you do on your own before we started getting connected and, you know, you started taking classes?
[00:07:13] Jami Robben: Yeah, I think I ended up doing, I remember doing-- the first year I competed, I did one regional and one national. And then after that, it really was just a matter of I would compete and, you know, spend all my allowance money 'cause at that point I still didn't have a job. I was, I think I was 14. And so I would save up my money and compete, be broke, save up my money. So it really was just a matter of whenever I had enough money to compete again, I would compete. And so I think I was ending up doing maybe three regionals and one national for maybe three years before we got in contact. I think it was three years.
[00:07:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Yeah, that sounds about right, I think. Yeah. And you know, what's so amazing to me and, I have the great privilege of calling Jami my friend, and, but I've been her teacher as well, but I am so, so always so impressed with Jami because she is such a hard worker. And when she sets her mind to something, she's going to do all the hard work it takes to get there, not just skate by, which I've always really admired. But speaking of which we have to tell the story, this, this poor girl, I, I, I have a bad/good habit of always sort of pushing people to their next level. Very, very first thing poor Jami did with our company was, I totally threw her into this piece. So, so her and her mom and I met, and it was back in the fall and then we were having a performance coming up in the winter. And I, I met her mom and her mom told me all about Jami and, you know, what she was kind of interested in doing and showed me some videos. And, and I was really, really impressed with how much she had been able to do pick up on her own from YouTube. I mean, that's frankly, anyone listening, that's like a novelty story. Most of the time you cannot learn as well as Jami did off of videos just to--for context. But she's again such a hard worker that she really put time and effort into to learning. And so then we connected and, you know, hit it off. And then your first experience in any kind of like formal setting, poor thing, was to jump into rehearsal with three professional dancers. And you, and how did that feel? I mean, oh my gosh, you know, looking back I always thought, "I know you can do this because I could see your raw talent." I could see your drive and ambition, but like when I look back, I think, "Oh my gosh, I really put a lot of pressure on you."
[00:09:54] Jami Robben: Yeah, I remember. Well, first of all, I appreciate those kind words. So nice of you to say, but I just remember being, I was so excited, first of all, I could not believe I was going to be able to dance with professional dancers and be able to go into a studio because I'm pretty sure when we had rehearsals for the performance, that was my first time in an actual studio. And so I was so excited. I was seeing all the studios' like competition trophies on the wall. And I was like, "This is the coolest thing ever." And then we started rehearsal and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know anything that they're talking about." and I was like, "Okay, I need to go home, and like Google all these terms." And, and, you know, and so I would go through with rehearsal, we would learn a chunk, I would go home, I would look up all of the terms, make sure I had all the technique right and everything. And then the day of the performance. Oh my gosh. I was so scared. I was really nervous. I think the thing I was the most nervous for it was for getting the dance just 'cause I, I had never done anything with other dancers.
[00:11:07] So, you know, if you forget your solo, it's, it's a solo. It doesn't matter what you do really. And especially because the competitions, I wasn't affiliated with any kind of studio. So it was the only thing I could mess up is like, you know, it, there was no pressure to it. It was very pressure-free. And then this performance, I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I forget the dance, oh, they're never going to ask me to dance with them again." And all this stuff, you know, I just like putting all this pressure on myself and it ended up being probably one of my favorite experiences. But looking back at it, I was telling you a little bit ago, how I resurfaced the video that my mom took of it. And I was just like, "I hope no one ever sees this video of me dancing. It's just, oh my gosh, you can see the fear on my face the whole time. And you know, you and the other dancers just dancing beautifully, like effortless, slowly and gracefully. And then I am trying my hardest not to forget this dance and you can tell, but, but the good thing was, you know, it was only uphill from there. I feel like after that, I was like, "Okay, you know what? Like Lindsey asked me to come back. So something went right with that. So it's okay."
[00:12:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. And then after that performance is when you started taking classes and was that a big change for you? I mean, did, did it feel just weird to kind of go from like, learning on your own to then having a much more like structured environment with other people and kind of just really honing on like, "Oh, this is basic technique. Like I have to get back to the basics. Was that, was that a weird transition for you?"
[00:12:59] Jami Robben: Yeah, I think the thing I was most likely kind of shocked by was how, like, detail-oriented, especially ballet was. I was just so used to these YouTube tutorials, and a lot of them that I was doing wasn't necessarily technique. And if it was, it was like how to do a pirouette. It wasn't a ballet class or anything like that. And so a lot of it was just like dance tutorials and dance combos. And so it was at first, I, I almost felt like it was, you know, more--I don't even know how to describe--not taking a step back in the sense where it was like easier, but more so like slower-paced than just learning a combo off of YouTube and calling it a day, but more so like learning the positions and everything technique-based. And it was kind of like putting a name to something. I kind of recognize from the things I was learning on YouTube, but I feel like the biggest change was, when you learn things on YouTube, obviously it's mirrored. And so, you know, the people I was learning off YouTube, they were all right turners, but I was turning on my left side because it was mirrored.
[00:14:16] And I had no idea that that was not kind of the normal, like most people were right turners. And so I remember coming into class and everyone's turning on the right, like really, really well. And I was like, "How, how did they turn so well on the right? Like that's not normal." And it was like, "Oh my gosh, you're a lefty?" I was like, "No, I turn on my right foot." They're like,"That's, that's a left, like you, you're a lefty." I was like, "I learned everything backwards." So I feel like after that, I was just, I, it was kind of having to relearn a lot of things that off of YouTube I learned incorrectly or backwards, honestly. And so it was weird seeing how things are supposed to be in, in learning like my placements were wrong and stuff like that. So a lot of it was even more so like corrective work than like learning from the beginning, kind of trying to correct some of the things I taught myself wrong, but it was so nice, especially to be able to be surrounded by other students kind of going on the same path and, you know, you feel inspired by them and you want to work harder just in a class setting. So it was really cool to be able to do that.
[00:15:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then, so after you started classes, you basically have then been a part of the company ever since. So after that , we invited her to be an apprentice with the company. And so Jami performed with us as an apprentice all throughout high school. And then at graduation, that was a really fun moment. Do you want to talk about that?
[00:15:51] Jami Robben: As an apprentice with the company, I thought that was like the peak of my life. Like I thought it was just the coolest thing ever, especially because everyone in VidaDance Company is just so kind and professional. I feel like a lot of them are rare to find in, especially the group that we have. It's just so special. And I just felt so lucky to be able to learn from such professional and amazing people. And so when I was an apprentice, I just, I never even really thought that, you know, there was a next step. I was just like, "Okay, this is the best." Like I'm so happy. And then at my graduation party , Lindsey came up and she made an announcement that I was being promoted to full company member. And I bawled my eyes out. I was, I was so taken off guard, but in such a good way. And I still have, she gave me a little stuffed animal flamingo for kind of the company mascot, and I still have it on my bed. And it's probably one of my best memories of my high school experience or honestly like my entire life up to this point. And yeah, after that, I just have been able to be full company member and still dance with the company, even throughout college, which has been such a blessing, especially just because I love dancing and I feel like in college, it's very much academic-based and so being able to dance and have that outlet while I am in school, it's just been so great. So I'm so thankful to still be able to be a member of the company.
[00:17:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, and we of course love having you. So it's always exciting. There's always these moments of excitement when people are like, "Okay, well, when is Jami coming back?" Because you know, we have performances throughout the year that, you know, unfortunately since she's at school, she doesn't always get to participate in, but, but the summer is always a really good time. And sometimes the winter too. And it's always like, "Count down the days, when is, when is Jami coming back to rehearsals?" is always fun for us too. We, we love having you be a part of the company, but...
[00:18:04] Jami Robben: Awww, I love that!
[00:18:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, so, okay. So now you are in school. So do you want to talk a little bit about, you know, maybe what you're pursuing and then kind of-- and I know everything is so hazy, of course, so, it's, you know, no worries about kind of the future--but are you, are there certain things that you're kind of working towards, or tell us maybe a little bit about your college experience?
[00:18:29] Jami Robben: Yeah, so I went into college thinking I was pursuing just a journalism degree. I wasn't exactly sure what in journalism, but I really enjoyed writing and everything with that. And then I wanted to continue my Spanish and so I decided to go in with majoring in journalism and minoring in Spanish, but I was still pretty confused because I knew that I loved dancing so much and I wanted to do something with it in the future, but I just didn't really know how to pursue that while kind of pursuing a degree in journalism. And so going to college, I just remember freshman year was so--I was just so confused. The whole year I was in the GEN EDs, which didn't help because those are classes that every freshman has to take. So none of them really have to do with your major. So I was in like math and English and science, and I just was not enjoying it at all.
[00:19:29] And I was really questioning if I was making the right decision by going to college, and if I should be doing something else. I just didn't feel like I was making the right decision, but it wasn't really until first semester, my sophomore year, when I finally applied for my emphasis area, which is in strategic communications and I have an emphasis in strategic communications on data journalism. So it's a whole, it's a whole train of things, but I, when I started doing classes in my emphasis area, I started really enjoying school and feeling like I was making a good choice and that it--just because I was majoring in data journalism, it didn't mean that I had to give up dance. And I, I feel like it took me so long to realize that there's no specific path, there's no steps. You don't have to graduate and then get a degree in your major and stick with it for the rest of your life. And I feel like once I realized that, I just took so much pressure off of myself. And so I was dancing with the competitive dance team at Mizzou. And so I put, started putting a lot more effort and time into that.
[00:20:44] I started getting involved with our homecoming. We have an annual Fling event, which all--a lot of--organizations on campus will compete dances that go towards points, 'cause homecoming at Mizzou is this whole thing that everyone tries to win. And so I choreographed a few dances for that. And with that, I started finding more of a balance between dance and school and realizing that I can do both. But I don't have to make a decision and stick with only that and pursue that in the future. And so that's where I'm at now. I have been dancing a lot more in school and it's just been a, really, a lot better of a balance. And the dance takes a lot of stress off of me with school, but I'm still really enjoying my major. And so for the future, I'm just kinda gonna wait it out and see what happens. But I feel like the people, I feel like students all the time, they put so much pressure on themselves to know exactly what they're doing in life. And so I feel like once I took that pressure off of me, I'm just kind of chilling and seeing what the next step is when I get there. So that's about where I'm at now.
[00:22:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. I think that there is this misconception that is very widely spread that you have to have it all figured out. And that is so not true. As any adult should tell you if they're being honest--which you're an adult now, too, I don't mean it that way--but you know, an older adult who's, you know, been through some stuff should tell you, you don't have to have it all figured out. It comes, it comes as it, as life unfolds. And that just makes it so much more fun and adventurous.
[00:22:34] Jami Robben: Exactly.
[00:22:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, and then you're more open to opportunities that come your way that you might not have had in your original plan, so to speak, but that might be perfect. So yeah. I love it. Awesome. Well, that is exciting. And so I'm curious, with the journalism aspect, you know, of course writing is an art form in and of itself. Now you're kind of combining the science with your data emphasis, but do you find that that is another creative outlet for you on some level to be able to be a writer and to be expressing yourself that way too?
[00:23:13] Jami Robben: Oh yeah. Especially when I'm in school, I, you know, I don't always have like a big studio accessible to me to where I can just go dance and kind of relieve my stress. And I live in the, you know, this tiny shoebox room when I'm at school. And so it's very hard to kind of move around in it. And so I feel like now more than ever, I've definitely been using writing as an outlet, and and even in school with my assignments, I really enjoy writing papers, which I know scares a lot of people. But for me, it's like, I hate tests. I hate projects, but it's like writing papers, I'm okay with. And so even with that, I've found a lot of enjoyment with it. And just being able to kind of just start writing and seeing where I'm at mentally and kind of, you know, mapping where I'm at, so I can look back at it and see kind of how much I've grown or improved with my mentality towards things. And so I've really been enjoying writing and journaling every night. I think it's such a good stress reliever for sure.
[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then pivoting back to dance. Now you've had some pretty unique opportunities--and you've, you've touched on it a little bit--but to choreograph quite a bit, which is usually a skill that's developed--not all the time, but often--with the dancer it's developed later, just because of circumstances or kind of what your, your goals are, but you are becoming quite a, an adept choreographer and you have so many layers to what you do and stuff, but it's interesting how have you kind of evolved over time. Because again, originally you were choreographing these solos for yourself that might miraculously morph onstage, shall we say. Jami's a little notorious for this, which I love, but, oh my gosh, when we give her a solo, you just don't know what you're going to see every night.
[00:25:17] Jami Robben: That is very true.
[00:25:19]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it, but how has that changed for you going from like, you know, you choreographing on yourself to then setting works that involve multiple people and trying to figure out layering when you're not necessarily a part of the piece. How, how did that all kind of work out for you?
[00:25:34] Jami Robben: Yeah, I mean, like you said, when I was choreographing dances for myself, I would kind of do like a skeleton outline and then just whatever happened on stage would happen. And I just, I didn't even know what was gonna--what I was going to do until I was doing it, honestly, and that kind of became my thing and it wasn't always a good thing. Like sometimes I would work so hard on choreographing a dance for myself and absolutely love what it became. And then as soon as I get on stage, I would just, it's like, I didn't do a single step that I tried to do. And so I was like, what was the point of me choreographing that? But when I-- I think the first dance I choreographed that was for other people was for National Dance Week for the company. And with that, I believe it was for, maybe it was Fringe. I'm not, I don't know. I don't even know. I feel like a lot of them blend together.
[00:26:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I know!
[00:26:36] Jami Robben: I think we did it for Fringe and National Dance Week, is what it was. It was ...
[00:26:40] Lindsey Dinneen: I think so too.
[00:26:41] Jami Robben: Yeah, it was "On My Own," and it was maybe four or five dancers. And I remember trying to choreograph it in my living room at home and just being so confused on how to do like formations and how to do even, you know, like choreography where all the dancers are moving together. And so I remember the first dance that I did, all of the choreography was very individual. There wasn't a lot of like work together or like partner work necessarily. And if it was, it was, it was very brief just because I had no idea how to do that and how to do it in my living room and, and try and give it to other people. And, so I remember that dance was hard. And then the second dance was another one for National Dance Week. And that one, I felt better about it. I felt like I was kind of getting down the process of choreographing it and making sure it had counts just because the first dance I did, I, I had never counted my choreography for my solos.
[00:27:54] And so I remember, you know, they were, the dancers were asking for counts, which obviously you need, so you can do it at the same time. That's kind of how that works. And I was like, "Counts? Like, why do you want counts? Like you don't need counts." And so the second dance, I was like, "Okay, like, that makes sense. They need counts so they can do it together. It's not a solo. This is a group dance." And so I kind of had a go back and relearn how to choreograph stuff and make it so it was cohesive and it was an actual step that I could explain. And that was technical to where they could also be doing it the same. And so I feel like it was definitely a process of going from just choreographing stuff for myself that if I messed up or did something completely different, like it didn't matter, to choreographing a group dance where all the dancers need to be doing the same thing. And it has to tell a story and they have to do it together. So it was definitely a roller coaster trying to figure out how to do all of that, but it was such a great learning experience. And I'm, I'm so happy. I was able to be able to do that.
[00:29:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, every single dancer goes through that because it is a transition learning how to put together patterns and some things also that you, you work out beautifully in your head, you do in real life and you realize very quickly, "Oh, that's not physically possible." Yeah. And then it's just a matter of tweaking and kind of being open to the fact that, you know, different bodies move in different ways. And so some things that might actually look beautiful on your own body because of your own abilities or flexibility or whatever, it might look a little different on someone else, and kind of being willing to adapt. So yeah, that's, that's a normal thing for choreographers to go through and it's definitely a bonus that you got to kind of learn it early and then, you know, now you've gotten to use it at school and all those things. That's great. Yeah, for sure.
[00:30:04] Jami Robben: Yeah. And I'm so grateful to have been able to do it with the VidaDancers, because I, I know for a fact, if I had gone somewhere else and was trying to learn with them, they probably would not have been as gracious as the VidaDancers were for me, trying to figure everything out on the spot. So I'm, I'm very grateful that it was with, with you guys.
[00:30:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I think, I think our, our dancers--and I'm so, so thankful for this group all the time--but I think our dancers are very good about kind of gently--and they do this with me too, they do it with everyone-- they, they sort of gently point out when things might not possible. Or they'll say, "You know , like I see what you're trying to accomplish here, but it looks like maybe if we did it this way, that could work better." And that's, that's our whole environment is very collaborative and how can we make the best art together, which is, is unique, but I also love it. And then it's, it doesn't feel so intimidating as a choreographer because I think also, again, kudos to you for your bravery, choreographing on your peers is hard enough, let alone when you're the apprentice and then you're choreographing on professionals. Like it's, it's already difficult and then you're adding another layer. So yeah. Kudos to you for again, stepping up to my, my challenge is where I'm like, "Hey, you want to choreograph?" And you're like, "Sure!" And, oh my gosh, you are so amazing. Anyway, so, and then also, I know you've had a lot of opportunities to teach both now through school, not at school, but through local studios. And then you've taught elsewhere too. Has that been kind of a learning curve too?
[00:31:45] Jami Robben: Yeah, I definitely the first time I kind of transitioned more into a teacher role at school was with one of the local studios. And I remember, I mean this specific studio, they're not, it just ended up not being for me. Just kind of the way they, they ran the studio, but when they first hired me, it was through a girl that I'm on the competitive dance team with. She works there and they were needing another teacher. And I just remember, I walked in my first day and she just was like, "Okay , you're going to go teach ballet. It's in the studio. Go ahead." And she didn't really know my, like, skill set or anything. And I told her, I was like, "I am not very technical at ballet. I, I need, I need a lot of improvement to be able to teach ballet level, to, to kids and teach them correctly. I just don't feel like I'm at that level yet." But she said it was fine and she let me teach it. And I just remember being so scared because I knew a lot of the things I was teaching these kids, I was like, "I don't even know if this is necessarily correct." And so it really limited a lot of what I was teaching them because I didn't want to teach them something and it ended up being wrong. And so I was very limited on what I could kind of do with them for class.
[00:33:20] And so after that experience, I was like, "You know, maybe teaching isn't for me. I just, I feel like I want to challenge dancers and help them grow. And I just don't know if I'm ready to do that yet." But then I ended up just trying one more time and I tried a different studio. And with this studio, I felt like they were a lot better at kind of listening to what you're comfortable with, and what your skillset is. So they allowed me instead of teaching my own classes, they let me assist classes with a teacher that's been there for 20 years and kind of shadow and be mentored by them so I can learn how to teach students. And that's what the dance studio did to me too, with, with you Lindsey, like being able to assist your classes helped so much because I had no idea even how to teach a class. And so I was so grateful for that to be able to assist you and kind of shadow your classes so that when I was able to sub at VidaDance, I knew exactly how the classes were supposed to go.
[00:34:26] And I felt so comfortable there and I knew what I was able to do and what the dancers were able to do. And so I think it just threw me through a loop when I went to school and tried a different studio and it was just so different. And after that I was like, 'Oh my gosh, I just, I don't know if this is for me." And so finding a studio at school that's similar in the way that yeah, VidaDance was where they allow me to be comfortable with what I'm doing, has been so great. And I'm, I'm really happy with the studio I'm at now. And I feel like at this rate, I'll be more comfortable teaching classes on my own in the future and having more of a technical background as I take more ballet classes and more technique classes that I can use in classes that I ended up teaching.
[00:35:18]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. And that's so cool that you have that opportunity because I think a lot of times, that's such a great way to learn. I mean, I did the same thing at my studio growing up. I would assist, especially with the little ones' classes, and learn all the tricks and tips and all those kinds of things that help make it, you know, a good experience for everyone. And yeah, so that's, that's a great way to learn. That's very cool. And now this was another thing. Oh my gosh. I just, I--all right, folks, I just have to just totally be frank--I am definitely a person who's like, I see potential in someone and I'm like, "Okay, you can do this thing. I'm going to ask you if you can do this thing," and then they take it and run. And I'm always so proud because it's amazing. And, but I, gosh, I have--maybe it's a bad habit of like pushing people to the next level. Anyway, the point is, I did the same thing to Jami last year, and I asked if she would be interested in taking over National Dance Week Kansas City. And that is an annual event that I founded, oh gosh, now what? Four or five years ago? And it's really fun. It's just, it's a day of all sorts of different dancers, choreographers, companies, studios, anybody who wants to dance, come together for this one event. And we just perform and it's just free. It's for the community. It's just a way to kind of give back and show each other what we do. And, and it's, it's a lot of fun. And you know, about like a little over a year ago, I said to Jami, "You know, I'm kind of at a point where I personally need to transition out of this, but I, you know, I, I don't want it to die. I trust you completely with this. Would you want to take it on?" And she miraculously said yes. So tell me about that experience and like, how is that going now? Because you've had quite an experience of last year, you know, with COVID having to pivot and then, oh gosh. Tell us the story.
[00:37:25] Jami Robben: Oh yes. Well, I remember going, going to National Dance Week the first couple of years that you were running it in, it was always something I look forward to. And especially once I left for college, it was something I was always so excited to come back for and be able to perform. And so when you asked me to kind of take on this position, I was so scared. And I remember I called my parents and I was like, "Do I say yes?" Like, "Should I say no?" They were like, "You know, if, if Lindsey is saying that she believes in you for this, that means something like, you should just give it a try." And I was like, "Okay, I guess I will." And so I was excited, but I was scared at the same time. I was nervous. I was feeling all the things, but luckily you were so great at kind of walking me through what exactly needed to happen. So there wasn't ever moments where I was confused on what I was doing or, or anything like that. You just, you did a really great job of kind of transitioning into it. And so I felt like I had a better grip on what was supposed to happen and what was the event was supposed to look like from my point of view.
[00:38:37] And then right as I'm starting to feel really good about it, of course COVID happens. And I was like, "Oh great." Like, "I have no idea what the heck I'm supposed to be doing for this now." And I knew I still wanted to have the event in some way. And of course, when I was thinking this, it was still the early stages of quarantine and the shutdown. And so of course, all of us are thinking by April, we'll be completely fine. And so I'm still, you know, trying my hardest to get everything in order. And I remember I started making the schedule for the lineup for all of the dancers and then right as I'm making it, I get a call from Leawood Stage Company, which is the sponsors for our venue that we have it at. And they were just kinda like, "Yeah, this is, it's not going to happen in April." And I was like, "Okay , I guess we'll move it to August." So we spent the whole summer working on stuff for it. And of course we get to August, things are still pretty rough. So I remember I was, I felt--I was pretty bummed, of course, that that wasn't happening. But at the same time, I felt super lucky to almost have like a trial run where it wasn't necessarily all that work for nothing.
[00:40:00] It was more so all of that work to be able to practice what to do for this year, when we'll actually be able to have an event. And so I'm really grateful in a weird way that everything happened the way it did, just because I, I don't know how things would have played out if it was, you know, we actually had the event last year. I'm sure I would have forgotten something or, you know, just, I felt like I was still in the early stages of just figuring out what the bare minimum of what I needed to do to make the event happen. And so luckily that I had that run now, I kind of know the basics of it. And so I feel like I've been more able to kind of add stuff in and see where we could take it in the future, which has been really, really fun.
[00:40:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so that event is coming up. So what's the date?
[00:40:57] Jami Robben: It is April 17th at the Ironwoods Amphitheater outside.
[00:41:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah. And what's great about that venue is easy to social distance, easy to wear masks, easy to do all the things, you know, assuming that that's going to still be, you know, the case. So, and I, if I'm not mistaken, registration is still open.
[00:41:19] Jami Robben: Yes. Yes. I believe registration will be open until exactly one month before the event. So March 17th is kind of the tentative date to close registration.
[00:41:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. So if there's anyone local to the Kansas City area that's a dancer, choreographer, studio owner or whatever, just know that this is something that's free to participate in. And it's a fantastic way to share your gifts with the community. And definitely it's, it's a lot of fun. You get to see so many different kinds of dance. We also have a lot of ethnic groups that perform, and so you get to see like traditional Chinese dancing, you'll get to see usually some--oh, gosh, I'm, I am blinking, but there's always so much--some Irish steps sometimes. Yeah.
[00:42:06] Jami Robben: Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot of it. I remember the first few years when I went, I was so impressed at all of the cultural groups that were attending, and it, it definitely opens up the world of dance and just makes you see different sides of it that you don't necessarily see every day.
[00:42:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. Yeah. I've, I've loved that about it, 'cause it's just been so much fun to see different cultures come together, and that's something that unites us and it's just so fun to see dance represented that way. So, yeah, definitely. And if you're not a dancer, but you're local to Kansas City, it's so much fun. You can come and go. There's no pressure, obviously it's free. So tons of fun and just keep your eyes out for all the details as they kind of come in the coming months. But so first of all, Jami, thank you so much for being here and for sharing all your stories. I do have a couple of questions to ask you that I always like to ask my guests, but before we get to that, I have one other question. Are there any moments, or is there any particular moment that kind of has stood out to you as something where you had an encounter with art and it was just a moment that you wanted to tuck away forever? It was, it was a moment that matters that you wanted to remember. Is there anything that stands out to you?
[00:43:30] Jami Robben: Yeah, actually I remember right when we first got in contact through my mom, I remember we met at the coffee shop and we kind of discussed where I could be mentored by you. And you said that you had a performance coming up that weekend that I could go and see VidaDance Company at, and it was at the Kansas City Day of Dance at the Kansas City Ballet. And I will forever remember that performance of you guys doing the "Call Me Maybe" number. And that was so amazing to me. I could not believe that such talented dancers, especially you, Lindsey, took interest in me, 'cause I just looked up to you guys so much. And so that is a performance I will forever remember for the rest of my life.
[00:44:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that makes me so happy! That was such a fun piece too. Oh my gosh. I love that piece. Yeah, that needs to be reprised. We'll have you in it next time.
[00:44:34] Jami Robben: Oh my gosh. that would be a full circle moment.
[00:44:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? Oh, I love it. Oh, well, okay. Wonderful. And then, okay, so I just have a couple of questions. So, first of all, how do you personally define art, or what is art to you?
[00:44:53] Jami Robben: I would say art is just anything that expresses someone and it doesn't take any sort of level of talent or anything like that. It just is something that you express yourself with and it makes you happy. And it's something you're able to share with others and make them happy with it too.
[00:45:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. I love that. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:45:18] Jami Robben: I would say the most important role is probably sharing your gifts with others, just to again, make them happy. I think a lot of times are sometimes can be, you know, just kept to yourself if you're scared of showing other people. But the best thing you could do as an artist is share it and inspire others with it.
[00:45:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a story or program notes or a title or something to sort of help the audience understand what the artist was experiencing when he or she created it. Versus exclusive meaning that the artist puts something out there and doesn't provide context so that it's completely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.
[00:46:14] Jami Robben: Yeah, I would say for me personally, I really enjoy it when artists kind of leave it up to the viewer. I think it just allows you to make it more personal and have it resonate with you more. And so that's what I really enjoy, but I also see the importance of the inclusivity and, you know, allowing them to kind of show where they were at when they created it and kind of let you in on their world. But for me personally, I really like it when they leave it up to your own interpretation.
[00:46:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, again, thank you a million times for being here today, Jami, and sharing all your stories.
[00:46:57] Jami Robben: Of course.
[00:46:59] Lindsey Dinneen: And then is there a way for us to get in contact with you? Whether that's just to, you know, kind of follow your artistic journey or whether that's to, you know, go see or get involved with National Dance Week? Are there ways for us to do that?
[00:47:13] Jami Robben: Yeah. If you want to just kind of keep up with me personally. My Instagram is just Jami Robben, J A M I R O B B E N. If you have any questions about National Dance Week or anything like that, you can email me at robben.jami@gmail.Com with the same spelling as before. And then if you want to keep up with National Dance Week in general, I would go ahead and like the page on Facebook, just at National Dance Week Kansas City, and we post all the updates that you need to know about the event on there.
[00:47:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you so much. Well, and thank you everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love it if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:48:00] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
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