In this episode, I welcome Debbie Dinneen! Debbie is the owner of Seasonal People who sculpts and creates original Santas for retail sales and special orders. Her background, growing up in Orange County, CA, plays a significant role in her artistic journey and endeavours, and she delights us with tales of her adventures. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of one of Debbie's original creations!)


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Episode 33 - Debbie Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have my mother-in-law on the show today. Her name is Debbie Dinneen, and she is an incredible artist and has wonderful, amazing stories to share from her journey through all sorts of different kinds of art. And Debbie, thank you so much for being here. I'm just so excited to have you.

[00:01:02] Debbie Dinneen: I'm happy to be here. This should be fun.

[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yes. Well, would you mind sharing, to start, sort of your background , maybe kind of your journey of, of how you started dabbling in different art forms, and yeah, maybe what you're up to now too?

[00:01:20] Debbie Dinneen: It, you know, it really is truly a journey. I, I credit a lot of my interests to being raised in Orange County, California, where you're really bombarded with the arts, visual arts, theater, just so many great avenues. And it's tough to pick just one. I started it with a deep interest in theater, and even when I was young, I wanted to be a choreographer. That didn't happen. But I really enjoyed street theater with the Renaissance festivals. I had a lot of exposure to Disney artists and artists from all different areas and walks of life. So I really appreciate having had the opportunity to be raised there. Later in life, I , just before I moved to Kansas, I was working, making tissue heart valves from pigs' heart valves.

[00:02:21] And I still use many of those tools today in my sculpting and Santa making. So that's just one more tool that I had to be able to transfer and apply to sculpting. I went to JOCO [Johnson County Community College] out here for some pottery classes. I was a very poor potter and found myself making odd little things instead. And I had children at home and decided that I was going to start doing sculpting and trying to sell them at some local craft fairs. I started with cave men. One of my favorite pieces was a cave man on a fossilized rock  gritting his teeth with a thorn in his foot. I loved all the natural aspect and using natural fibers and things that we just find in our environment. Later, I decided that I really wanted to express joy and laughter and do it through my art. And I had done it at the Renaissance Festival, creating characters like the Rat Lady, and I really wanted it to come through my art. That's when I decided to start sculpting and making Santas . I use a lot of natural fibers and it just lent well to what I wanted to portray. I noticed that a lot of the Santas available were, were angry looking and I wanted some that looked more fun-- silly if you will, happy. So that's the direction I went.

[00:04:14] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love that it was about celebrating joy and laughter and creating these-- they're amazing, you definitely have to go check out her website and see them , hopefully get one for yourself. Because the detail in these Santas is just incredible and you can definitely see the joy come out. They're so fun. Yeah.

[00:04:42] Debbie Dinneen: I, I like to make action figures, I call them . For example, Santas sledding on their bellies and their beards blowing back in the wind. That's one of my favorites . Santas making wine in half barrels and holding their wine glasses up, stomping grapes with their feet full of, of the wine. It's just fun things. Things that people will want to put around their home during the holiday season that will bring them joy. And happy Santa is a lot more fun than a grumpy one.

[00:05:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, amen to that. Well, and I am, I know because I have the privilege of owning some and also have seen a lot of your work. But one of the things that I think is so amazing about what you do is the level of care and attention to detail. So it's like you mentioned, incorporating natural fibers and things like that. But I know that you literally import specific things when you're looking for it. So can you talk about maybe how, how do you decide, or how did you come to, you know," this is my standard of quality that I infused in this?"

[00:06:00] Debbie Dinneen: That kind of came along with my first experience in retail. And I was actually supplying Santas to what used to be called Everyday's a Holiday at Crown Center. And the gentleman that owned the store had such a good eye. And anytime I make a Santa-- I can only actually remember feeling like this is perhaps a perfect piece and that rarely happens if you're an artist, 'cause we're always striving for perfection and we oftentimes don't feel that we have met that. So, and this man had the ability to spot exactly the same thing that I had a problem with with my Santas. It was uncanny and it was disturbing as well. So I, it really bugged me, but that, that taught me. And in time I learned, you know, if, if my Santas are going to be in a high quality retail environment, I need to meet that challenge. So I do import pelts from, from Tibet , China . I also use , I buy a lot of vintage coats and I learned how to work with the pelts and the fur to use them and incorporate them with my Santas. It's, it's kind of exciting because you get to, because it's, it's a lot of different mediums that you use, not just the clay.

[00:07:34]So I get to use a lot of different fabrics' fibers, and then I incorporate with the Santa. So I get to learn other little side skills like embroidery, sewing, of course.  I, oftentimes my husband would make sleds, sleighs, and help me. He helped me learn how to make the Santa stand independently, which it's a tricky thing and you have to make sure that everything is balanced well, so the Santa remained standing at all times. So it, it really has been a learning experience. And you just keep, you just don't give up. And the first part was learning to sculpt. I did have the ability to see three dimensionally. It's a skill I needed making the tissue heart valves.  It, it lends well to sculpting. And each, with each Santa, you really do learn something, or you and or you go, "Oops. I remember now." And you change your direction or step it up and make it a little bit different. It's, it is really truly a journey of learning.

[00:08:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, all these complementary skillsets then that are completely art-related, but that you've kind of acquired along the way. That's really neat.

[00:09:03]Debbie Dinneen:  I really enjoy going to the store and being outside or inside the store. And I bring clay with me and I really enjoy having the kids come up and I have extra tools for them and some clay and they try their hand at it and they, they love it. And they're excited by it. That's one of my favorite things to do.

[00:09:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how fun! Yeah, I'm sure they are so delighted by it. So when you're creating a new work, is it often an inspiration that comes from finding, you know, what ends up being a cute little prop or accessory in your finished creation? Or does it happen where it's maybe more commissioned, someone says, "I'm looking for this type of Santa."

[00:09:54] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's interesting that you ask that. I just completed a piece for a local Kansas City barbecue , Rosedale Barbecue in Kansas City. And it was a piece of , the granddaughter. The, the grandfather started it like 81 years ago, and the granddaughter wanted a piece to honor her grandfather. And it was a very emotional thing for her. She really loves her, loved her grandpa. So I ended up making a smoker out of, I think it was 950 bricks , little bricks and then side pieces, their sign , and the Santa, instead of sculpting just a Santa, I sculpted her, her grandfather from pictures that she supplied me. So that I that's my favorite kind of thing to do, because if I, if it's something so special to them, then I'm so much more invested.

[00:10:58] Then there's times when I know, for example, that people really enjoy the wine Santas and I enjoy making them because it makes people laugh and it's funny, and it's something that they haven't seen before. It, inspiration can even come --I may find one little antique or vintage item that is special and I, and I then will build a whole Santa around that. And , and if they tell a story by visually I, I, my that's part of my goal as well. So anything you add to it gives it more depth and meaning, and I love doing a special order Santas simply because, you know, this person is invested in it, and you work so hard to make them feel happy about the finished product.

[00:11:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. And so when you're going about creating, especially these special works, do you always go in a certain order when you're creating your Santas, or is it kind of, you know, maybe one day you, you feel like sewing, so you'll do the coat. And then the next day, you know, you're ready to sculpt or does it, does it kind of flow like that? Do you have a, or is it very specific?

[00:12:24] Debbie Dinneen: You know, that's a really good question because many pieces are really different. Like when I took on this challenge of the Rosedale Barbecue Santa, I felt like the greatest challenge for me was going to be making the smoker. And it was a challenge. But it turned out really well. So I felt really good about it, but I felt like I had to do that before sculpting his head and his hands. And I think because I knew for me it was something I had not done before. And, and I knew it would be the most challenging thing for me. So yeah, in that case, I did it that way. And then you, you basically, you build them from the ground up.

[00:13:16] So for example, the wine Santas, I would start with the wine barrel , fill it with materials to keep it weighted at the bottom, then put layers of the grapes and then a layer of liquid glass paint to make it look wet. And already I've got a wire running up through the bottom of it, so the Santa can be built onto that wire armature. And so I will build that up and I, I always have to remember to get the pants on over that wire before I go any further, or then you have a Santa with no pants. So when that thinks that piece needs to be built in a specific order, so they're all a little bit different. And each one presents their own challenge. Even if they're just sitting, you have to make sure that they can sit and stay seated in an upright position. So these are all little tricks of the trade that you learn along the way.

[00:14:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I know that when you create your Santas, they each come with a very personalized card. And so what do you share on those cards? Is it, is it the different things that are unique to it, or how does that?

[00:14:40] Debbie Dinneen: That is, is exactly right. I try to take the time to write what special items I have incorporated into the piece. I'm like, if I had used Mongolian lamb's wool or mink from a vintage coat I like to, or bridal satin, I use a lot-- I like to let people know what special things go into them--or the crystal eyeballs. And I make their own teeth myself. I make their tongues and their tonsils and my Santas are really known for their open mouth smiles. And that's what makes them look so good.

[00:15:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I love these Santas. They're so, they're so fun. They're so whimsical and yeah. So I'm kind of curious because, all right, 'cause you'd mentioned a couple of times, you know, your, your actual job experience back in California, like you said, helps you with your sculpting, what would turn into your sculpting skills. But I'm curious, have you always had a really steady hand? 'Cause I would think that with the intricacies that you were working with and that you still do, that would be challenging. Like I, I'm sure I wouldn't be successful at that.

[00:16:00] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's funny. I didn't feel like I had a lot of great motor skills that way, small motor skills. But once I had done that job for the lab , and most of our work was done under a microscope, and they were the first tissue heart valve made from pigs. Heart valves is pretty delicate work. And I think that really helped tune and hone my physical skills . Even an example is, we would use a blanket stitch on the stent, which we put the valve in. We'd use a blanket stitch, which of course, you know, you use when you sew, so the two together working with small things, small tools, being able to see in three dimensions , it all kind of came together and was helpful for me. And then I think perhaps overexposure to Disneyland Disney artists. My, my maid of honor at my wedding was a Disney artist. As a matter of fact, I brought her there to, to apply for the job myself and she cartooned for them for years. So, I and, and wanting things to just be happy and full of joy. That's what I wanted to portray through my Santas. And I think I really do think my exposure to Disneyland and being raised in Orange County probably played a big role in that.

[00:17:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I'm sure that it did.

[00:17:40]Debbie Dinneen: We were kind of a humorous family, and we love theater and entertain. It's just really a fortunate, fortunate thing I think to be, to be around. And we've just always been silly. What can I say?

[00:17:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well, I can attest to that and I love it. Yeah. So, okay. So I know that at one point in time, you had an opportunity to maybe-- and please correct me if any of the details are wrong-- but had an opportunity to maybe take your Santas and mass produce them. And you ended up deciding against that. Can you speak to that? I'm just really, that is a, that was a huge, bold step, which I, you know, have totally respect, but it's, I'd love to hear about that. 

[00:18:32] Debbie Dinneen: The decision I made was simply because it's a really tough thing for a manufacturer to replicate exactly your piece. And in most cases, If you try that, it's not done well enough. There's a local company here in Kansas City that did the best job ever on somebody else's Santas. And I would have to have had that standard as well. That opportunity never occurred, but most of the reproductions are done in China and you don't have a lot of control, and the quality is never as good as what you can do yourself. So I decided that I'm better off staying small-scale and doing what I really love and being able to do whatever I want. It, there's a lot to be said for working independently and not having to you know, like quibble with somebody--how many buttons you can have on the Santa's coat or or what colors. And so for me, the creative process is making each one exactly the way I want it. Unless of course it's a special order. Then I collaborate.' I love to take people's ideas in that case. And oftentimes they'll bring me childhood toys of theirs or their children's toys or grandparents' pictures , all kinds of things, so that I've, over the years, incorporated into their special order Santa. And that that's really a fun thing. It's all about being able to have the freedom to create and make people happy with the results.

[00:20:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely right. You touched on the fact that, you know, it could be what maybe they would consider to be a small detail, like the number of buttons, but to you there's intention and there's purpose behind that. So it makes complete sense that, you know, as an artist, you want to continue to feel very proud of what you create, and so I just want to circle back to the Renaissance Festival because I, I know you spent years actually doing that and you talk about your love of theater and performing, and I know you and your husband had a whole set of very well-known characters. Do you want to share more about some stories from that?

[00:21:18] Debbie Dinneen: Sure. I created, I got exposed to the Renaissance Festivals in California and, and there did a jester, and that was my original character. And then moved to Kansas and immediately got involved with the festival out here, which at the time was a benefit for the Kansas City Art Institute. And lots of the Hallmark artists were involved. We had great times. I created a character called the Rat Lady. Because somebody told me I couldn't, and what I did was I got a dozen dead rats from KU Med Center, and they were donated to me, and I had them mummified. And the Rat Lady was a mad woman who believed she protected people from the plague by having them kiss the dead rat on the lips. Well, these were pretty disgusting, but they were safe and men all over the Kansas City area were kissing these rats on the lips. It was just awful, but I had a good time doing it. I would say, I would say after they kissed him on the lips, I told them it would help protect them from the plague.

[00:22:29] The irony is of course that the fleas on the rats actually helped spread the plague and they would come off the merchant ships. And that's one of the ways that the plague was spread so widely, but I would say, "Oh, look, his lips have brought it off his face." And the, the wives would always grab their husbands and drag them off. It was hilarious. And then Tim, my wonderful husband, is very kind of quiet and shy. And so he created a character, the Kissing Beggar and he held a sign, "Kisses: One Penny" and, and he would actually sell kisses for a penny. People, husbands would give him a penny or a dollar and just go, go say, "Go kiss my wife." And the wives would run, but they enjoyed getting their picture taken with Tim. So it became a family event. Even our son as a small child and a baby was out at the festival in costume. I performed in California, Texas, and Kansas City. And It was after that, that I started doing Santas.

[00:23:40]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Do you ever miss those days and would you ever consider going back and doing it again?

[00:23:46] Debbie Dinneen: You know, I kind of miss it. I remember some of my memories were going to sleep at night, hearing people, screaming, "Rat Lady, Rat Lady." It got to the point that I couldn't hide and eat lunch because somebody wanted me to come out to get a picture. I had a whole string of dead rats. I had several upon my body. I wore--this is really bad--but I would catch flies in jars, freeze them for a couple of minutes, stick them on my face with spirit gum. Spirit gum is used to put on beards, mustaches, that sort of thing. Very tacky. I get the fly out of the freezer, put it on my face. It would warm up and wake up and be buzzing and flapping. And so that made people wonder, "how does she do that?" One man even turned around and slapped me in the face. He was, he was panicked because he saw these flies on my face. I usually had at least four. And, and I thought, "Hey, he slapped me!" It was, it was hilarious. It was the oddest reaction that I'd gotten. But my word, yeah, I got, I was removed from the top of the Crown by security. I was doing a radio show. And that was, it was the only time I've ever been removed from somewhere. But you know, when you're in rags and you look dirty and you have rats , it's really dubious. So it was appropriate.

[00:25:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:25:20] Debbie Dinneen: I did a lot of the local TV and radio here, and enjoy enjoyed doing that as well, and schools, personal appearances at schools. So switching gears to doing Santas was really good for, for my family. And for me , generated extra income. I didn't have to drag my kids out in all kinds of weather. So it was a really good transition. And I still do that to this day. My Santas are at Crown Center in Occasions. And believe it or not, it was the first store I started out in, and it was Everyday's a Holiday then. It's Occasions now on the second floor . I've sold my Santas for a few years down at Big Cedar Lodge in Branson. I'm just in one store now. And I do sell directly from my website, which is So I'm still making them and I still enjoy it.

[00:26:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I just am curious: are there any stories that come to your mind as sort of, you know, either funny things that happened related to the arts or heartwarming or something that kind of has stuck in your memory as a moment to remember, because you just want to hold on to that encounter with art?

[00:26:51] Debbie Dinneen: You know, there have been some moments. I was in selling at a store, in a store on the Plaza and it was just heartwarming to see people coming in and enjoying just looking at them, whether they bought them or not. And just hearing the nice comments and seeing that the kids that just love the Santas, and to me being there and getting to see people's reactions is really fun. There is one time , the lady didn't know that I was in the store and I was kind of behind something. I, I heard her say, "Oh my God, that is hideous. I would never have one of those in my house." I laughed so hard! And I appreciated hearing that reaction because some people find sculpture or doll-like sculptures kind of scary. So to hear her make that comment, and it just tickled me to death. Than I, I never said to her, "Oh, I made that," because I didn't want her to feel bad, but you know, right. This goes to show you: everybody has a different idea or thoughts on what a Santa should be, and some I do are very traditional. I actually got a lot of reaction from a Santa that I do that is drunk and he's on his back. He's got a bag with alcohol in it. He has a gum, chewed gum on the bottom of his shoe that he stepped on and a, a wrapper from, or a receipt from the liquor store, and his tongue is hanging out. And he's just flat on his back and it's actually a pretty cute piece, but people really would find that funny too.   That's a special piece and I like to see people's reactions with that.

[00:28:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And how cool to be able to witness somebody else witnessing your art and hear their reactions. Oh my word, that one lady.

[00:29:00] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, most of the time it's really, really complimentary. When I heard that, I could not help but laugh, and I didn't want her to feel bad. So I went around this area where she couldn't see me to do my laughing. And it, it's good because you know what you don't ever want to get too arrogant as an artist. You don't ever want to think your stuff is the best, in my opinion. So it's good to hear that kind of honest response and it keeps you in your place. You know what I mean? So, yeah. That's all part of it and I would never think that mine is the best or that mine are perfect. Like I said, in all these years, I've only done like one that I couldn't find fault with. I've made a lot of Santas over the years, so, you know, it's-- I don't know if it's an artist thing, where we just don't feel we're ever good enough--but I don't ever want to make that mistake of feeling that I'm superior because  I think you can get in trouble that way. You've always got to be hungry and keep trying.

[00:30:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Good advice. Well, and I think that is so important because I think as artists, we are striving for excellence, and perfection is just not something that can be reached in art, is what I've decided. I agree because it's always subjective too, like you probably are very proud of the work.   Should be very proud of the work that you create because you do put your, you put yourself in your art and your soul into creating these beautiful works of art, but ultimately somebody can look at it and go, "Oh yeah, that's not for me. You know? And same with every other kind of art."

[00:30:53] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. It is subjective. And I understand that and appreciate it. And, you know, it makes me feel just fine if they don't like it. So, but that was the wildest response I think that I've gotten. Most people see them and they laugh and they say sweet things. If they, if I'm there, the store oftentimes will tell me what customers have to say and it's so-- in these later years, it's usually very positive. In the younger years, I look back at my early work and I think 'uggh." So I sure get it if a customer would think that as well. But it's a learning curve, just like with anything, practice, you just keep practicing. And sometimes things just go wrong. Sometimes I glue my fingers together with super glue. You know what I mean? Like it's like, wow, I've been doing this with years for years. I can't, what did I just do? I glued my fingers together now, how do I get out of this? You know, it can be anything. And mainly for me, because I work with so many different glues , paints for so many different things. There are so many opportunities for something to go wrong along the process.

[00:32:15]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Well, and I'm curious, have you ever gotten to a point-- I think as an artist, maybe we've all gotten here at some point--but gotten to a point where you're just so frustrated and fed up with what you're trying to do, that you just like scrap it and start again?

[00:32:31]Debbie Dinneen: You know I usually can save myself, but there are some things that I do I've had to scrap because that I was trying to make like a piece to go with it, a prop, whatever. Yeah. I've scrapped a few things. Normally I can keep working on it to get it done. Sometimes I have to walk away from it for a day, and come back to it. That's rare these days. I usually just try to keep hammering through until I get what I want. But if the piece is really intense, like this recent one I did, I worked on it for a whole week longer than anticipated because I didn't, I hadn't gotten to the point I needed to yet.

[00:33:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, you've mentioned you have lots of great little tidbits of advice that have kind of been scattered throughout, but if there were somebody who was kind of just starting out and thinking about maybe wanting to pursue an artistic endeavor, what kind of advice would you have for that person?

[00:33:40] Debbie Dinneen: Never give up. It's that simple. You know, so many of us will pick up a ball of clay because we'll be, we'll get an opportunity, or we'll pick up a paint brush. If they continue on and they don't give up, they're going to end up being successful in getting to the point where they like the results.

[00:34:02]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, that's really great advice. And I absolutely agree. You know, you mentioned some of your early work, you thought, "Ooh." Well now, you know, now you think, "Oh man, I could do so much better," but every artist is like that. And so I think your advice is so spot on because, I looked back at some of the pieces that I created back in the beginning and go, "Ooh, well, I've come a long way."

[00:34:27] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then there's a middle point too. If I see a Santa that is more recent, it's like looking at the, the baby you made. It's like, "Oh, I remember that one." And you, you remember it fondly. But the real early stuff is for me is a little dubious, but you know what, it's a learning curve and we all have to start somewhere.

[00:34:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen to that. Absolutely. I actually have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests, completely subjective. Is that all right with you?

[00:35:02] Debbie Dinneen: Sure.

[00:35:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:11] Debbie Dinneen: Oh boy, to me, first thing that I think of is anything visual, but you know, art encompasses so much, you know, music, theater, dance. Art is everywhere. Art is when I look out my back door and I see birds on my bird feeder. We're just surrounded. That's how I feel about it.

[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I agree. Okay!

[00:35:42] Debbie Dinneen: And if you can, if you can work with it, or work with things that are around you and available to you and create more art, that's super cool to me.

[00:35:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. Well, and then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:35:59]Debbie Dinneen: Keep an open mind and try, just keep trying and try anything.  And then, teach if you can, if you have the opportunity.

[00:36:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's a great answer. I have yet to hear that. That is, that is a great answer.

[00:36:17] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah. Information share. And for the people coming behind you.

[00:36:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Perfect. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll share what I mean by that. So inclusive referring to an artist who puts his or her art out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's, you know, program notes or a title or the inspiration or something to kind of give a little bit more background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't necessarily provide any context so it's completely up to the viewer or participant to decide how they interpret it.

[00:37:06] Debbie Dinneen: In, in my particular situation, I think inclusive and which is why I put information on my cards. But every art is different and every artist is different. They have to make their own choices.

[00:37:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Perfect. Well, first of all, Debbie, thank you so very much for joining us today. I really, really appreciate it so much. And I have to say to anyone who's interested in these Santas, please, please go and check out her website because they're just stunning. And do you mind repeating what that was again?

[00:37:48] Debbie Dinneen: Not at all, Lindsey, It's pretty easy.

[00:37:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And we'll provide a link as well. And I also just want to say on a personal level, of course, I have had the privilege of getting to see a lot of your work and hear the stories of the Renaissance Festival and so many things. But I have to say also thank you for incorporating art into your life and sharing that with your kids. Obviously I have personally benefited from that because Kevin grew up participating in the arts, which then he was super interested in helping to continue, participating in them with me. And so that's really special.

[00:38:32]Debbie Dinneen:  And he's very creative as well, and that, you know what, I'm grateful that we were able to pass that down and share it. It's, I'm totally grateful about that. And then we do still with our grandchildren as well.

[00:38:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and it's just one of those things that's, that is so much a part of you and your experience with art and even how you answered the question about the, the role of, of passing down, of teaching the next generation, essentially. So yeah, that's really important. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you again so much, like I said, for being here and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you'd share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:39]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even very small monthly donation, like $5 a month would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I've set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is And I would love if you would consider just making our monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors, so everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day, and I'll catch you next time.

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