Artfully Told

Episode 036 - Mike Huerter

In today's episode, I welcome Mike Huerter! Mike shares his experiences participating in plays and ballets first as an actor, and then being "roped into" taking classical dance classes--and how much that has changed his life! His stories are heartwarming and powerful, and he discusses how much portraying certain roles has changed his perpective on his own life journey. (Fun fact: the cover image is of Mike and his dance partner in VidaDance's production of "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker.")
 
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Episode 035 - Mike Huerter
Lindsey Dinneen:  Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.
[00:00:16]Elizabeth:  It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told . My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, the fantastic Mike Huerter. We actually met through dance , but he has a long and very interesting story of sort of how everything came together. And I am just so thrilled to talk with him today and share his stories with you because he brings a really fun, unique background into his art. And so, Mike, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:01:08] Mike Huerter: Thanks for having me, Lindsey.
[00:01:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, if you don't mind telling us a little bit about how you kind of got started and I just love this whole story of yours, so I'm excited to share it.
[00:01:22] Mike Huerter: Oh gosh. It's been quite a few years back now, actually 21 years ago, back in 2000 I was approached by a female member of our church at the time. And she had a question for me, said, "Hey, would you be interested in performing in a play for us?" And it's like, "Well, sure. I, I can do that. What do you know, what, what kind of play is it?" She said, "Well, it's actually a ballet." It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. I don't wear a tutu. I'm not, you know, I don't dance. I have two left feet, no rhythm." She said, "No, no, just hear me out." She said, "We , there's a place called Dramatic Truth that does a ballet every Christmas called "The Mystery of Christmas" and it's "The Nutcracker" ballet, but it's actually done to the true story of Christmas. And so I, I said, "You know." I kinda thought about it and said, "Yeah, that sounds kind of cool actually." I said, "I wouldn't mind taking a look at that." So did it the very first year and just totally fell in love with it. Fell in love with ballet at that point. Just watching these girls, 13, 14, 17, 18, just giving their all and could barely breathe coming off stage just fascinated me. And I actually got to play the role of Jesus--well I played, do a role of Jesus and Joseph in that play. And that was a very humbling experience in and of itself, actually.
[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I'm curious though, because I'm so impressed with the fact that you were just like, "Sure I'll be in this play." I mean, have you ever, had you ever acted before, or was--so were you comfortable with the concept? Or were you just like"Sure. I'm up for something new."
[00:03:08] Mike Huerter: Well, I, I have the quote "look" for, you know, the Western American version of Jesus--long hair, back at times, still at my beard was still brown. It's got quite a bit grayer since then, but I, you know, I had done some, some school plays in grade school and high school and had done kind of a musical at one point in like eighth grade, if I remember right. And it was kind of a fifties hip hop thing. Oh gosh. The soda fountain type music back then. And then I had done some church plays prior to being approached by doing this and playing the role of Jesus and everything . Actually did "The Passion of the Christ," and that, that was, yeah. That's, that's a whole 'nother story.
[00:03:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I mean, I would love to hear it if you want to share about it.
[00:03:52] Mike Huerter: Just the aspect of going and trying to portray Jesus . Halfway through the rehearsal, part of that production, prior to our Easter production, I literally heard the devil say, "Who the hell do you think you are?" And my problem at that point was I started listening to him, and I was close to probably being on the verge of quitting, just because-- excuse me, bear with me-- because I had no right playing that part. Yeah, it's , you know, I don't even come close to being who Jesus is. I mean, I can, I can show Him to the world is how, what I think He should be, but I'm not Him by any means. So I kind of talked to the, the pastor who was producing it and.  She, she of opened me up to really delving in deeper into into my faith at that point. And so I started praying about it and kept going, going to the rehearsals and everything and, and shared with a few people what I was going through.
[00:04:59] And then one day at rehearsal, I was , I believe what I heard was God. Because I heard the devil say it again. It's like, once again, "Who do you think you are?" And I heard another Voice said , "This is my beloved son, and he's here because I want him to be here." Yeah. It just kind of set me back and it's like, "Wow!" I mean, "Did I just really hear that?" Did I think it? Didn't, you know, what's going on here and, and then distinctly felt and heard it again saying ," I'm here because God wants me to be here and to fulfill this role." And I can't remember in my mind visualizing, turning back, looking over my shoulder and it's like, "Hey, I'm out of this. If you have a problem with me doing this, you need to talk the Guy in front of me right now."
[00:05:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes!
[00:05:43] Mike Huerter: So it was like, "Hey, I'm just doing what I gotta do. And it turned out really well. It was a great production.  And it just, it really deepened my faith just to put myself in that role. And then kind of got, I guess, quote "stereotyped" into doing it from that point forward. I mean, people contact me  to play that part, and I love doing it and I mean, it's great.
[00:06:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. That is a powerful story. Thank you for sharing that. That's...
[00:06:09] Mike Huerter: Ah, you're welcome. You're welcome. It's still hard to talk about it so many years later just, just how real that was for me.
[00:06:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I think you captured it well in the way that you were talking about how it's just such a humbling experience to try to portray a character like that.  Obviously that would, I guess, be kind of your ultimate standard of character, but just in general, trying to portray someone that you respect and look up to and admire, I mean--that alone is huge. So yeah. Good for you for listening to the right Voice, ultimately. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, so then, all right. So fast forward, you got involved in "The Mystery of Christmas" and you obviously were pretty inspired by that, but then what happened after that? Because that kind of changed a little bit of your life from there. And then that kind of inspired you to start doing other things related to ballet. And I don't want to tell your story for you, but can you share a little bit about what ended up happening as a result of all that?
[00:07:18] Mike Huerter: Liz Dimmel, who's the Artistic Director over at Dramatic Truth, after years of performing in "Mystery of Christmas "--about five years ago now-- yeah, I was 55 years old. So she in her, I don't want to say "devious," but she's, she has a mischievous twinkle and smile she, she sometimes gives to people, and she kind of looked at me one day, said, "Hey ,  would you be interested in performing another play that we're going to do?" And it's like, "Well, yeah, you know, sure. I'm always up for doing something different like that." And she said, "Well, now wait a minute. Before you answer that fast, you might want to take into consideration that you will actually have to dance in this one." And it's like, "Ooh " once again, you know, proverbial white guy, two left feet, no rhythm. I don't count music and all that kind of stuff. And she said, '"Well, you know, I've got a DVD. I'd like you to go home, you know, kind of take a look at it and see about, you know, if you'd be interested in doing this. You would be playing the role of Jesus again."
[00:08:19] And so I took the DVD home and I have watched it, and really interesting piece . I kind of started talking to the girls a little bit about it, you know, and they said, "Well, we haven't done that piece in probably five or six years." And it's the piece is a, it was a production about what we all go through in the spiritual battle. Demons abounded in it, and they were tormenting for particular characters in this, in this production, and Jesus being the role of stepping in and intervening to help them. And really, really enjoyed doing the piece. It was, again, another humbling experience ,  touched a lot of people's lives. I was told afterwards even by some of the young ladies that I was performing with. And so anyhow, that that production was over and, well Liz--I went and talked to her, said, "Hey, thanks for, you know, thinking about me for playing this role." And she kinda looked at me and she said , "Would you be interested in taking a dance class?" And it's like, oh again , "Well, tell me more, you know." So she said, "Well, we, we would really like you to come and do our pas class 'cause a lot of the girls don't understand the dynamics of what a guy goes through and performing lifts and, and working with them. And we could, we could really use the help. So I thought about it and talked again to two of the older girls.  You know, "We , we don't get into it very often because we don't have that many guys here." So I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And I'll call Liz and tell her. And she was ecstatic.
[00:09:53] And so I showed up the first night of dance class, and yes, they really did need the help. It was me and eight girls. And it's like, "Am I the only guy?" "Yep." "Oh, great." But I'll tell you what--that, oh my gosh, what a workout. I remember the next morning when the alarm went off to get up for work, I could barely move to get out of bed. My whole body was like, "What did you do?"  But I talked to my youngest son about it and he said, "Dad, that's a phenomenal workout because your body doesn't really know what's coming next. You got different weights sizes, you know? And it's like, that's a great workout." So, and I, once again, fell in love with it and just kept doing it. Unfortunately, you know, this COVID thing has come along and I've had to bow out of it for awhile, but I even at 60 years old, I would welcome to get back into it. And, and they've already told me that they would love to have me back too. So.
[00:10:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Yeah. Well, okay. So first of all, for anyone listening who isn't familiar with the term "pas," it's actually partnering. So it's typically, in classical ballet at least , a man and a woman. And so, yeah, those kinds of classes are, I mean, they're, they're difficult for the girls because they're learning something, a skill that is more advanced and is challenging and can be a little scary sometimes because you're relying on a, another human to catch you and lift you and all those things. But for the guys, it's this tremendous, like you said, workout and responsibility and all those things. So yeah. Thank you for stepping up and bringing brave to help.
[00:11:37] Mike Huerter: Well, you're welcome. And the one thing that we'll say is that, at least at Dramatic Truth--and I'm, I'm, I would hopefully most dance studios are this way--but our number one goal and focus as a male dancer working with a woman, is to protect her at all costs. I mean, when you're trying, when you're throwing somebody up in the air, you know, things can happen. You try not to drop them. And thank God, I have not done that yet to this point. And I don't intend to, but you do whatever you have to do to keep them protected and safe.
[00:12:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And we certainly appreciate that. Oh man. I recall...
[00:12:17] Mike Huerter: I've worked with you, I don't think I dropped you at all, so.
[00:12:21] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I'm still here in one piece. Nope, feel great. Oh, no, but that, it made me chuckle because it reminded me of the first pas that we did together. There was this moment that we incorporated of a shoulder sit, and those things, those things are pretty scary. And I remember just, you know, doing the whole--because the idea is that you run to the--the woman runs to the man. And so you already have momentum going into it, and then you're supposed to jump and turn and he catches you and puts you on his shoulder. That's a lot of things happening at one time. And I just remember practicing it and it was just having this, "Oh, here we go," every time. Like, it's just a hard lift for anyone.
[00:13:09]Mike Huerter: But you did.
[00:13:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it was, it was good, it was a good team effort. It was fun times.
[00:13:14] Mike Huerter: Those kind of things that make it a lot of fun. I mean, if you can, you know--things don't go well the first time, obviously when you try things and you just have to laugh and practice until you get it right.
[00:13:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Absolutely. So out of curiosity, since this was kind of an endeavor you undertook a little bit later than most people start--which is fantastic, I have so much admiration for that-- do you, did you have a lot of like funny conversations with people who were like, "You're doing what?"
[00:13:47] Mike Huerter: Yeah. I still get that actually. It's like you, you're! Well , let me back up. I will say that anybody who doesn't think God has a sense of humor , if people knew me growing up, then they find out I'm now doing ballet. Yeah. God does have a sense of humor. I would never, in my wildest dreams, thought I would be performing in any kind of ballet. So yeah. I still have some interesting conversations. Like, "Did you say ballet?" You know, obviously people get the ideas, like "You're not wearing a tutu or anything?" and I was like, "No, we don't wear tutus, but you know, I still do ballet."
[00:14:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Oh my gosh. So, okay. So are there any moments, you know, either performing or watching someone perform, or it doesn't even have to be related to dance necessarily, but kind of any moments where you were experiencing art and something really stood out and you kind of tucked it away as a moment to remember?
[00:14:47]Mike Huerter: Oh gosh. There's been a couple moments in, in doing "Mystery" at Christmas where playing the role of Joseph right after the baby is born, I, I carry a really alive baby in the performances out to the center of the stage. And there was one particular year, I remember looking down at this , it was, it happened to be a girl . So , but I noticed one little lone tear rolling out of her eye and it struck me at that point that even then Jesus knew what He was going to do for us later on. And I almost fell to my knees on stage, just at the thought of that. And then there was another year I distinctly remember realizing and feeling is of it, playing that Joseph role, again, that at the, at the end of our little dance performance, I always kissed the baby on the forehead. And it struck me at that point that Joseph--I just got this overwhelming feeling of what Joseph must have felt like to realize he was actually the first physical person to kiss the face of God.
[00:16:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Those are two really big moments of inspiration. Just getting to think of it in those terms, it kind of brings more realness and, and humanity and, and all those things to this story that's, you know, sometimes feels a little distant. So that's, that's pretty amazing.
[00:16:22] Mike Huerter: Yeah. Those two, I think will probably stand out-- at least for now, anyhow--as probably the two most greatest feelings of my life and in performing.
[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Well, and so, you know, once everything kind of gets back to a semblance of normal, whatever that's going to look like , you had mentioned still planning to, you know, get back into it. So you were planning to go back to classes and perform and all that kind of stuff?
[00:16:48] Mike Huerter: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's my goal. I will, I would love to . Just it's, it's a good exercise. It's great exercise. It's you know, it keeps people connected , helps keep me young, hanging around with young, younger people. Because there's, there's going to be a day, you know, that I'm not going to be able to do it anymore. And I'm trying to fight that as much as possible.
[00:17:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Very good. Well, I, I always ask my guests the same three questions and I was wondering if I could go ahead and do that with you?
[00:17:20] Mike Huerter: Well, absolutely.
[00:17:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:17:30] Mike Huerter: Well, you know, art takes many forms dance acting, obviously drawing, painting. So I mean, for me, I think I probably gravitate more towards the acting, dancing role of art then, but that doesn't take away anything from any other art form, by any means ,  you know, musicians and all that. My sons and daughters are very musical. I love music. I, I wish I could play it, but I can't. So I'm in total admiration of people who can. I mean, it's such a gift that they can just-- my son's trying to, you know, he was trying to teach us to harmonize some time. They say, "Dad, it's right there in front of you." And it's like, "No, you don't understand. It's not right there in front of me. It might be for you." 'Cause he's got that ability where he can just pick out notes and play them, that kind of thing. So this would be a very sad world that any form of art . I think art-- it saddened me to see you know, some schools, they, it's not very high on their priority list. I think it's a great outlet for people to express their feelings as things that are going on, maybe emotionally in their lives. It's a great outlet for them, for them to, to bring that out without actually, without actually having to sit down and talk to somebody about it. I mean, they can express it in whatever form they want to. And it's, I think art's more for us, you know, the people are performing it than it is for the people that we're actually presenting it to.
[00:18:54]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, that's great. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:19:01]Mike Huerter: Probably just be true to yourself. You know, you, you can't fake art. It's, I mean, yeah, I'm portraying a role in something, and I guess people would maybe think that's fake, but for me, I want to do it to the very best of my ability. I want people to--when they, when they look and see me doing something, they don't see me, they see the person or, you know, that I'm trying to portray.
[00:19:28]Lindsey Dinneen: I really liked that. Yeah. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who creates something puts it out into the world and provide some context behind it. It doesn't have to be a lot, but you know, even title, program notes, inspiration, whatever to kind of help give the audience, the background info . Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does create their work, puts it out there, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's kind of completely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they do.
[00:20:13]Mike Huerter: Oh, goodness. That's a hard question because I can actually see both sides of that. You know, I guess I would probably lean more toward the inclusive because if you're using your art form to convey a message--and there are some people out there who have not been exposed to art-- so it would be as the, as the portrayer of the art, you might have a particular message you want delivered. And if there's no background to to go along with that, the message you're trying to portray may not be seen by the person you're trying to convey it to. So I think a little bit of context behind a piece is beneficial.  But then on the other side, you know, on the, if you're a true artist, then we'll let the person see whatever they want to see in it. But I, I'm still leaning more towards the inclusive.
[00:21:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely think there's value in both. And it's completely up to the artists too, because they can, you know, make decisions based on what makes sense. You know, I've certainly created works that I haven't--well, I almost always, I have to say, I almost always add some sort of program note--but in theory, you know, art should be able to stand on its own as well, right? And then, you know, it's kind of fun to have the background, but you don't always need it.
[00:21:40] Mike Huerter: So yeah, a lot of it just depends on what you're trying to portray. If you, if you just want to do a fun piece to let people think what they will, great. Don't give any context. But if you really, if there's a message in there that you want delivered, I think a little bit of context would help turn the light bulb on, so to speak, for people. It's like, "Oh, I get what they're doing."
[00:21:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, it's another question kind of popped in my head. So whe--you've talked a lot about what about these really, really deep, impactful moments for you. You know, you've had the opportunity to portray Jesus, which is a huge undertaking. And you know, so I'm, I'm kind of curious: do you find yourself leaning more towards opportunities that give you a chance to share something that's very you know, meaningful to you personally, or do you also enjoy more lighthearted things, or is it kind of like a little bit of both?
[00:22:36]Mike Huerter: I, yeah, I think a little bit of both. I mean, I think originally just because that was the only role I was really being used in was the spiritual until, you know, I got some other opportunities. So I, I, I mean, at this point I kind of welcome just about anything really. The, the aspect of a light-hearted is fun, enjoyable. I mean, like that little coffee piece we did, and we talked about before that we need to somehow bring back. That was fun. That was just a fun, you know, no real spiritual message in it at all. It's more of a an everyday person who's getting up to go to work type message. It's like, "Oh, okay." But yeah, so yeah, anything really? I mean, I, I just enjoy being part of it.
[00:23:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I think it's fun to have a little bit of both too. Like, I'm all, I'm all about the joy aspect, but I think that it's, you can get that from, from both sides and it's fun to have, have some of both. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mike, for being my guest today. I really appreciate it, and sharing your stories. I mean, you brought such depth to this conversation, and I really appreciate you being so honest 'cause I know sometimes those are, it's a little hard to be vulnerable when it's, you know, something that it did mean so much to you. So that's, that's really cool that you shared that. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it.
[00:24:01] Mike Huerter: You're very welcome. You're welcome. Anytime.
[00:24:03]Lindsey Dinneen:  And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:24:19] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:24:27]Hey, Artfully Told listeners. It's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes, and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you.  I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even a very small, monthly donation, like $5 a month, would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I've set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors. So everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

Episode 035 - Kevin Dinneen

In today's episode in celebration of Kevin Dinneen's birthday month, I had him as my guest again on Artfully Told! He shares two powerful stories about his encounters with art: one when he first tap danced as a five-year-old, and one about his innovative way to save a show with his creative choreography idea. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Kevin in our piece, "The Court(ing) Jester.")
 
Watch "The Court(ing) Jester": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXzv5QLtzPc
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
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Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold
Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview
 
Episode 035 - Kevin Dinneen
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey and I am very excited to have my husband, Kevin, on the episode today. And he actually has a really great story, actually, I guess, a couple of stories to share with us today. So I'm going to let you take it from here, Kevin .
[00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: Okay.
[00:00:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Enjoy.
[00:00:57] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. So it's a two part-er and it's a theme and these are the two dance performances that I have been a part of. As, as far as performing since marrying you--I've had to, I've gotten to be behind the scenes, do a lot of things with performances, but these are the two shows that I've performed in. So the first time--I'll set the scene, 1985, I'm five years old. And I've been a part of a tap class where I was one of two boys and it was all girls otherwise. And the other guy's name was Andy. I don't know if it was sort of like a bulk ordering thing or if they just weren't available back then, but Andy and I had to wear the same tights as the girls. And so we also had pink tights and I'm not quite sure why, but we didn't have an option. It  comes time for recital and we're in this giant, giant theater, This theater was the stage was so big.
[00:02:11] The stage is the biggest non-separated area of space that I had ever stood on, and just like this open space. It was huge. And these spotlights were so big--just to, so this is Gardner, Kansas High School Theater, but as a five-year-old, this was one of the biggest theaters in existence, right? That's what it felt like. It was, I was so intimidated and I just remember the lights being so hot and bright, and I couldn't really see the audience that well. And, I don't have any idea how my performance went as far as if you take into account my current ability to follow choreography. If it's anything like it is now, it was way off, way behind, and just way wrong.
[00:03:07] But I don't even remember that, that doesn't even factor into the story. So what happened then, at the end, we do our bow, and I turned, everybody turns to the side we're supposed to exit on. And, and so I turn and I exit and I get to the end and sort of a weird situation 'cause there's like props and behind-the-scenes stuff like sandbox bags for the curtains and, and there's like lights and stuff, and it's really dark and tell them like, "Oh, this is, this doesn't look like when we came in." And I turned around to see the last person that was, that I was next to, exit on the other side of the stage. And I knew that I had gone the wrong way and there was no, I look around, there's no way it's like the storage closet kind of area, and there's no way to get across the stage without, or you get to the other side of the stage without going across the stage in front of everyone. Oh. And I just remember running as fast as I can, and maybe if I get there as fast as I can, no one will notice. And, but in my mind, in my mind, it never occurred to me that this is a tap recital. And so I start running just as the clapping stops and there's this "clink, clink, clink" gets everyone's attention. This bright pink movement with all this clinking goes screaming across the stage and there's laughter. All of these terrible, horrible parents decide it'll be fun to crush this little boy's spirits.
[00:05:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, oh.
[00:05:04] Kevin Dinneen: I quit. I quit after that. I was crying. I was a mess. I was crying and bawling and didn't want to talk about it. And, I'm done. I took off my tap shoes for the last time, that evening and never picked them up again.
[00:05:19] Lindsey Dinneen: That's such a sad story.
[00:05:21]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So then fast forward and, Lindsey, you were getting ready to launch your company. Actually, it was the very first show that you were going to be putting on. So Lindsey got presented with this opportunity where she met the director of the Fringe show for Kansas City, which is a big, like 10-day arts festival with all sorts of performing arts, singing, acting, all sorts of stuff, theater, I should say. And, and there was an open slot at the Kansas City ballet performing space there. What would you call that? A studio theater?
[00:06:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:08] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So it was a studio theater for the Kansas City Ballet. And, after talking with her, she learned that there this open space was available and she had always thought about, or is it sort of like a dream of hers to start her own company. Well, now she has this opportunity to perform.
[00:06:32] Lindsey Dinneen: And, well, and to caveat, not just to perform, though that would have been super exciting in and of itself, but to actually produce a show, which was something that I had never done before in that kind of capacity of creating something from scratch. And just to give some context.
[00:06:53] Kevin Dinneen: Professional level paid gig.
[00:06:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, exactly, to that level. Yeah. I had never done anything like that before. And to give a little bit more context, I was presented this opportunity in what late April, I think. And then does that sound right?
[00:07:12] Kevin Dinneen: I was going to say early May.
[00:07:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Maybe early May...
[00:07:16] Kevin Dinneen: But it was, then was it June that the performance was going to happen in?
[00:07:22] Lindsey Dinneen: July.
[00:07:22] Kevin Dinneen: Oh July. Okay.
[00:07:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, but still to put that in perspective though.--so that was maybe a little over two months' worth that I had to put everything together. So that meant, you know, recruiting dancers and doing the choreography, creating the choreography, getting costumes, rehearsing so that we looked put together. I mean, that might not sound like that much, but that is a lot of work, and a lot put together from nothing in just a couple months. So, so first of all, perspective on, on all, how much this was like a big deal, like a full length.
[00:08:03] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not just, you know, 20 minutes or something, 10 minutes.
[00:08:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Not a gig, like a whole thing. Yeah.
[00:08:11] Kevin Dinneen: And so, so Lindsey, I remember she was excited, but also nervous, and just had sort of a fear of failure that was kind of keeping her from committing right away. And I remember saying, "Okay, whatever you need help with, I will be there to help, whether it's finding music or props or whatever it is, technical stuff. I can do any of the behind-the-scenes stuff that you need done promoting it, coming up with copy for promotional purposes coming up with photos or videos. You know, we can, we can actually do this. I'm on board." And so I convinced her to do it. I didn't have to try that hard. I just said, "Hey, I'm in this with you. We can do it." And that was pretty much, just kinda someone else that would, that would be there to help.
[00:09:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.
[00:09:08] Kevin Dinneen: So, we could actually go back and find the actual date, but I think it was sometime in early June after rehearsing, you'd come up with all of the pieces that you needed for your show. You had recruited everyone, you had actually started setting choreography on your dancers. And, it was something like, do you think you were probably halfway through with, with a certain piece that was going to be--dance that was going to be in this?
[00:09:41] Lindsey Dinneen: I want to say, yeah, probably. I think I had already choreographed it. I mean, gosh, that was a while ago.
[00:09:47]Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So there was this one piece of the puzzle, that was a, it was a pas, right? It was a, it was for non-dancers at the duets, the two person dance.
[00:10:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Typically a one woman, one man.
[00:10:03] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, and so who was going to be her partner in that dance had an injury and wouldn't be able to do this piece. Now we're talking like weeks away and needing now to find a new idea or a replacement partner. So started looking for replacement partners that didn't work out. And, and there was sort of this time where Lindsey, it got to you.
[00:10:37]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.
[00:10:39] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. It got to, you started feeling the pressure and, and then that got to me, 'cause I'm like, "Hey dude, you know, I'm here, let's do it." Well, what could happen? You know, you got this and, and I'll help. Well, I can't dance. And this is a professional thing. I can't go stand in. I can't go learn years' worth of things and get years' worth of practice and corrections in a, in a month. So I can't just stand in. So I decided that, I would make a comeback as a performer in a dance production. However, I just won't dance.   Well, I guess I did. My dancing won't be the... My dancing won't be the, the highlight of, of my portion. So I decided on this story where we have Lindsey as being sort of the center of attention for two men and one man dances. And then another man is juggling. So I'm the juggler in this. And, the story is basically, each of us vying for attention, vying for her attention. And, then me eventually winning, obviously, because I wrote this.
[00:12:02] Lindsey Dinneen: And we're married now. So...
[00:12:04] Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, I wrote it so that I would win the day. The beauty of this was I didn't have to dance. I fixed the problem and, and I fixed it by the other person in the da... the other guy in the dance didn't have to learn choreography. He would just do whatever he did whatever he wanted to do. There was a little bit of choreography between the two of you, but it wasn't as involved as the original thing. He was already, he couldn't do a whole 'nother piece, but with this, he just had to do a few tricks, mostly here and there. And so it kind of checked all the boxes and so I was able to then, it worked well. There was one hiccup, and I really need to start paying attention to my stage left and stage right directions. I, I had sort of a return of, of an issue from when I was five. And what happened was I, as, as part of the show, the last piece in the show was going to be sort of a, a piece making fun of, or kind of...
[00:13:17] Lindsey Dinneen: I called it my Murphy's Law rehearsal piece.
[00:13:19] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was a, it was a comical please showing things that can go wrong during a rehearsal. And, or rehearsals in general, like people forgetting the right shoes or, you know, screwing things up, you know, any which way. And so, you know, we kind of...
[00:13:38] Lindsey Dinneen: It's an exaggerated  parody, but tons of fun.
[00:13:41] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And, so I finished my, my juggling piece, called "The Courting Jester" by the way. I was pretty proud of that title and, so I get done with my piece. And I'm also doing all the filming and, and taking photos and things like that on, in the pieces that I'm not in. So I go to get ready to get my camera stuff, and after my piece and I'm going along doing my thing. And then, and then I remember that, or I realized, "Hey, this is the piece before the final piece that is making fun of the rehearsal stuff and I'm in that. So I need to go get in place now."  So before the piece before the piece I'm supposed to be in...
[00:14:27] Lindsey Dinneen: So the second-to-last piece of the show...
[00:14:30] Kevin Dinneen: Thank you! Okay.
[00:14:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.
[00:14:32] Kevin Dinneen: When the house lights go down right before the second-to-last piece, I go get on the side that I'm going to go-- the side of the stage that I'm going to enter from, which is opposite where the Green Room and stuff like that is, and changing rooms and stuff. So, I'm there on that side of the stage, and the piece starts, and I realize that I need my juggling balls for this piece. And I left them in the Green Room on the other side of the stage. Flashback to when I was five. I can't run across the stage.  I can't run across the stage during the piece. Luckily in this case, there was a backdrop, a black curtain backdrop, and a little bit of space in between there and the wall. So I decided I have to get across the stage and retrieve my juggling balls and then get back before, as opposed to enter the stage. Now the trick is I can't hurry because it'll make the curtain kind of wave,  if you pass by it too quickly.
[00:15:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And, and just for context, so he's kind of referring to is there's like the wall of the theater. And then what do you say? Like a foot? Is it even that much of space?
[00:15:49] Kevin Dinneen: So I couldn't walk shoulder to shoulder.
[00:15:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Or straight.
[00:15:54]Kevin Dinneen: I had to like sidestep.
[00:15:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, along the wall, essentially.
[00:15:58] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I would say 12 inches or a little bit less. Yeah.
[00:16:01]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so it's not a whole lot of space and it goes to the wall and then you have a little bit of space and then the black backdrop, and then from there the stage. So you actually, we don't have quite the full depth of the stage, but just to give some context. So as he's trying to maneuver behind the backdrop, like he's saying, if you move too fast--you can't run because if you move too fast, then the curtain, the whole curtain ripples, and it's just super distracting for the audience. So, yeah.
[00:16:31] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And then, and then I'm not supposed to be back there either.
[00:16:36] Lindsey Dinneen: 'Cause there's a lot of crossovers for the dancers in the piece.
[00:16:38] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So that's the thing. That's what I was worried about. So I, I get back there and I'm moving across and then all this--you can't see like an arms length in front of you--I mean, it's, it's pitch black out there. Luckily the dancer that I passed, she was headed the opposite way. They're so dark and we didn't never talked about it. So I don't even know who it was. And, and we passed, we saw each other and then passed very, very slowly and I was jammed up against the wall. And, so I got to the other side and got my juggling balls from the Green Room and then slowly worked my way back across. And I think I had three seconds before I had to go on stage. Like I got to the--
[00:17:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow.
[00:17:31] Kevin Dinneen: So I got, so there, there were like three wings. Is that right?
[00:17:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Kevin Dinneen: So, so the wing is the side of the stage. And it's blocked so you can't see behind it, but they're like three depths of these curtains.  And I had to get to the farthest one to the thing. Keep in mind, there are all these side lights and stuff and cords going everywhere. And there's people standing there getting ready and there's props. And so by the time I got back, I really had about three seconds before I had to come out juggling. And, I got out and I did my juggling part, and realized, sort of I had this moment of, you know, being able to have conquered my problems with  my wings to the stage.
[00:18:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Redemption! I don't think I knew--and see, I, this, this kind of thing happens a lot in my dancers and guest artists, as I will consider Kevin are, smart not to tell me as things are happening, but later they tell me these stories, 'cause I definitely had no idea that--
[00:18:37] Kevin Dinneen: I'm pretty sure you didn't have any idea how close I cut it until right now.
[00:18:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, no, I didn't even realize it was that close.
[00:18:44] Kevin Dinneen: Even when I told you what had happened, I left out the three seconds.
[00:18:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And it's and yeah, my goodness. Yeah. And it's crazy because, you know, that's real life. Things like this happen all the time and, and crazy little things just go wonky. I mean, it's live theater. So, as they say, the show must go on and you never know, but yeah, that's, that's a pretty--I did not know that.
[00:19:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And so in my mind too, I was like, so do I go out? And, and like fake, cause they've seen me juggled before, they'll know what I'm doing. And like, it might've worked. I could have improved and, and been like, you know, some sort of emotion like, "Oh shoot. I was supposed to bring juggling balls to the rehearsal, but I forgot. I'll just do this." And, you know, it could have worked. Never even crossed my mind until right now during the session I've told this story. I guess I don't think on my feet. 
[00:19:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and it's funny too, because I think-- well, you, you mentioned maybe like now you're kind of thinking through all the ways you probably could have made it happen and it would be no big deal. I mean, the audience wouldn't know the difference. And it's so funny because I think as dancers, when you grow up dancing, you have, you learn how to adapt really quickly to circumstances that you don't anticipate. So, and that's so common. I mean, there there've been, I can't even tell you how many costume changes I've had that have been super quick, where I barely made it on stage or didn't make it on stage for my cue. And then you have to figure out, "How do I adapt and how do I change?" And it's so interesting to hear it from your perspective. 'Cause I was thinking, I mean, even if you hadn't entered from the correct wing, I mean, you could have entered like a couple back and we could have, but you know, you don't think like that. You just think, and this is normal for, I think everyone, but you just sorta think like, "No, this is my role." Like, "This is what I've learned." And so you end up like rushing around and doing crazy stuff.
[00:20:49] Kevin Dinneen: Well, yeah, we rehearsed it so many times. Other people are depending on me to be where I'm supposed to be. And that's, you know, all I'm thinking is it's tunnel vision.
[00:20:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.
[00:21:00] Kevin Dinneen: What I rehearsed.
[00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.
[00:21:01] Kevin Dinneen: It's, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. So that was the last time that I performed so far.
[00:21:08]Lindsey Dinneen: I think he, he definitely, yeah. I mean, he's, he says that--but I remember after the performances, I remember you talking about, well, that was, that was my, what did you call it? Like your your one and done, or you're, you're retiring from performing after this or something . I don't remember. You had a funny catchphrase about it, I think.
[00:21:28] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I did. I, I think I said I was going to go into retirement while my career was at its peak, something along those lines.
[00:21:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and we kind of glazed over this detail, but the reality is Kevin is actually an incredibly talented juggler. So you might not know this about him, but he wasn't just going out and doing very basic juggling--although that would have been impressive too, because I really can't juggle very well-- but, but no, you should actually talk about a little bit about your juggling career because you actually, this is an art that you have perfected. Yeah. It's a whole thing for you.
[00:22:07] Kevin Dinneen: So far from perfected, but yeah, I started juggling at 13 and it was a fun, sort of a hobby. And in my teens, I started working at a nursing home, and decided, you know, it might be fun to put on a little show for the residents at the nursing home. And, and, that was really my peak as far as being into juggling and juggling often. So I'd put on a show every Sunday night for those residents where I worked. And then I started doing shows at other, other nursing homes and assisted living places and retirement--that whole kind of idea. And I just kind of--so technically I was a professional gettting paid to juggle.
[00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:52] Kevin Dinneen: But, yeah. And then since then, I hadn't really juggled seriously ever...
[00:23:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Since then...
[00:23:01] Kevin Dinneen: Until your show. And I decided to actually keep it simpler for your show, because I didn't want to screw up, because it had been so long. And I didn't realize it until after I saw the video that I had accidentally, and without even realizing it, slipped back into a complicated move called a Mill's Mess, where your arms, your hands crisscross while you're juggling. One hand goes over the other and then you switch mid-throw. And, I did not even realize that I had done that. And I think I did it every night, and I'd never even realized.
[00:23:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. We went back and watched the videos. And, and you had, you had done Mill's Mess perfectly every single night without even being aware, being conscious of that was what you were doing.
[00:23:52] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I didn't realize it. I was just in the zone.
[00:23:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Which is probably good because, you know, if you, if you had gotten kind of into your head, you might've started doubting it versus just having that muscle...
[00:24:02] Kevin Dinneen: If I had planned it, I would have worried about it and yeah, you're right. I would have been in my head about it.
[00:24:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.
[00:24:09] Kevin Dinneen: Or, should I do that?  And for me, when I learned it, it's sort of a milestone. And, kinda marked I'm better than intermediate now. And so it would have probably--since I kind of defined myself as a more-than-intermediate juggler having learned that-- I wanted to kind of say intermediate level for the sake of the show so I didn't screw anything up. And I would have probably thought about that too much.
[00:24:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I can see that. It, it's sometimes, it's just better to let your muscle memory take over, and magic happens that way sometimes. So yeah. So you have a background in juggling, and he likes to say sometimes that he was a professional in the, how do you put it? You call yourself, you, you did the?
[00:24:56] Kevin Dinneen: Oh, I worked the nursing home circuit.
[00:24:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. I love it.
[00:25:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I worked for the nursing home circuit.
[00:25:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word. I love it. So, yeah, so, so what do you think, are you officially retired or are you kind of leaving it open-ended? 'Cause...
[00:25:12] Kevin Dinneen: Well, you heard me say that I retired and I've said it several times...
[00:25:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, you know, but are you retired? Or like, you know, "retired?"
[00:25:21]Kevin Dinneen: Okay.  I would reprise that role. I would even expand it a little bit into like a three-part.
[00:25:31] Lindsey Dinneen: It could be a longer piece. It was very cute.
[00:25:34] Kevin Dinneen: And, you know, it was really just designed to fill the spot that was vacant. So yeah, I would be willing to do that.
[00:25:42] Lindsey Dinneen: All right, folks. You heard it. You heard it here. If I ever need to hold him to it, it's recorded. Oh my gosh.
[00:25:50] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So I've already asked or I've, I've already answered your three questions.
[00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah!
[00:25:56] Kevin Dinneen: Do you have three new questions for me?
[00:25:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, dear. You're my first repeat guest. So, no, I don't. Let me ask you this. Let's say you're at the end of your life and you can only witness one piece of art for the last time ever. So let's say this is like your, the last thing that you're gonna experience. Or, you know, like either you're gonna watch it or you're gonna look at it or you're gonna listen to it or read it or kind of whatever. What would that be?
[00:26:37]Kevin Dinneen: Can I say maybe one of two and like, if it were actually happening, maybe I would be able to decide?
[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. I think that's fair.
[00:26:46] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So, so actually you're in both. Probably "The Courting Jester," or the first time I saw you perform, which is at the Kauffman Center for Performing Arts in Kansas City. And, the show is "Underground," telling the story of the Underground Railroad or a story within that complex situation. But I, I don't know, probably one of those two.
[00:27:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, yeah, that's a good answer. Okay, well, and for all of you listening, I actually have the ability for you to, to watch "The Courting Jester." So if you are particularly interested in seeing it, which it is really fun, then we will actually post the link to it so that you can see it, like I said on YouTube and to get a feel for the, at least the original version, and maybe we'll have a future rendition.  So definitely check that out on YouTube. And then, Kevin, do you offer any kind of personal juggling coaching, or is there a way we can connect with you outside ?
[00:27:57] Kevin Dinneen: So, you can connect with me. Comment on the video. And, if you're interested in learning how to juggle, I actually do have a method to teach that I came up with. And, so far, to have three juggling balls in the air at one time for a sustained length of time. We'll call it like a minute. I think my record is three minutes of teaching, so.
[00:28:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Yeah. And it's, it actually is a really, really good method to follow because I thought I could never juggle, and he taught me, and I'm not brilliant at it by any stretch of the imagination. I haven't practiced that much. But, but when I was practicing, based on his method is actually really simple to follow and it makes you definitely realize that you can do this if you want to. And you can just, as long as you practice it, it's a lot of fun. I had no hand/ eye coordination because I'm just not very gifted at sports or anything like that. And I just kind of assumed, "Oh, juggling is going to be another one of those things that is not going to come to me." 
[00:29:08] Kevin Dinneen: And I haven't monetized my method. So if you're just interested, I'll tell you how it's done.
[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Well, thank you very much, Kevin. I appreciate it. Thank you to all of you who have listened to this episode. We would love it if you would like to share with any of your friends who might just need a little burst of joy and inspiration, and we will catch you next time. That's all for today.
[00:29:36] Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating, and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told.
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Episode 034 - Joseph Pilgram

In this episode, I welcome Joseph Pilgram! Joe is a professional dancer, ballroom dance instructor, and art-lover extraordinaire! He takes us along his journey from how taking a single ballroom class in college led to him pivoting his career goals from nurse to dancer, and has both heartwarming and humorous stories to share along the way. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Joe and Lindsey dancing their ballroom-inspired pas de deux, dance for two, "Wonderful World.")
 
Get in touch with Joseph Pilgram: http://stjoeballroom.com/ | 816-265-1444 | joe@stjoeballroom.com
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Episode 34 - Joseph Pilgram
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so delighted to have as my guest today, my good friend and dance partner, Joseph Pilgram. He is based out of St. Joseph, Missouri, and he is an incredible artist himself. He is a professional dancer. He's a ballroom dance instructor. And Joe, I think you've probably dabbled in a bunch of other different things. Well, I would love if you would share just a little bit about maybe who you are and how you kind of got interested in art.
[00:01:13] Joe Pilgram: All right. Well, thank you for having me. And, yeah, I'm definitely excited to be here. So with dance is one of those things that I got into as a little kid with break dancing and watching the kids on TV, but I was more of a closet dancer and, you know, you'd watch "Footloose" with Kevin Bacon, and I'd do some punch dancing in my basement or, you know, secretly, and I never went to really any high school dances or any school dances except my senior year. And, that's how I ended up getting into dance was because of a girlfriend I had at the time that we went to a wedding and she saw her aunt and uncle doing some social dancing. I can't remember if it was a polka or swing dance or whatever it happened to be, but she said, "Oh man, that'd be fun to learn how to dance like that. Do you want to?" And I said, "Sure," knowing, you know, in my heart that music made my body move. I just never had any formal lessons. So, so we signed up for a class together at Missouri Western State College, which is now Missouri Western State University.
[00:02:29] And she, she and I broke up, but I thought, "Well, maybe I'll see her in the class." So, I, I held on, and classes started and she had dropped out of the class, but there were only three guys in the class and about 30 girls. And I thought, "Oh man, I better learn these steps pretty quickly because I don't want to look foolish in front of everybody." You know? So while taking that class, that the dance teacher, Paul Chambers, who also had studied modern dance under Hanya Holm, who was one of the pioneers of modern dance. He said, "You look to pick up the steps fairly quickly. I think you ought to look into other forms of dance." And so I, I took his word and I joined his Missouri Western dance company. I can't remember its technical name, but it was something along those lines. And, so he, he got me into doing modern dance.
[00:03:34] And, from there, I quote/unquote defected to UMKC after about, after about three years of taking ballroom, social dance and modern dance. And, so I followed a friend down to UMKC, a friend named Elisha, and she, she had already taken classes at UMKC and had enrolled there. And so I, I followed her down there and started taking classes, and very similar experience with Paul. The teachers said, "Hey, why don't you come back? Looked like you really liked dancing and you're picking up the movement at a decent rate. You're a little rough around the edges. Let's clean you up."
[00:04:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Love it.
[00:04:21] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. So that's, that's how I ended up getting into dance.
[00:04:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And so then you, okay, so then you enrolled in college for dance, which I imagine had probably never been on your radar before, is that correct?
[00:04:39] Joe Pilgram: Correct. I didn't know a dance degree existed .When I started college the previous summer I was working construction and traveling to Omaha, Nebraska to work construction with a friend up there, and I realized, "Wow, this is a, this is a lot of hard work, maybe out-- see what, what other things are out there that might be indoors? I didn't mind really being outdoors, but I knew that, you know, by the time you're 60, you might not want to have that kind of a rough and tumble lifestyle where you're around a lot of heavy machinery that's really loud. And, you know, the possibility of getting injured and getting blasted by the sun nonstop. It was, you know, to each his own, I have a lot of, a lot of, respect for people in that field. I just knew that it wasn't cut out for me. And so, my dad said, "Well, you know, nursing is, male nurses are high in demand. Do you want to go into that field?" And so that's what I started initially at Missouri Western was looking into a nursing degree.
[00:05:50]And then, because I enrolled in the dance class, I found out pretty quickly that guys were also really high in demand within the dance world. It's kind of a joke. I tell the people, even at my ballroom classes is that, you know, I thank the ladies for, for bringing their husbands along and to, to have them there. Usually to get a guy to dance, it takes alcohol and yeah, and then he can't remember the steps in the class. So we're thankful that he's there and that he's, you know, here to learn to dance, and that everybody's sober and we're going to have a great time. So, so, yeah, it's one of those things that, guys... still are the competition's pretty steep among ladies, as far as I can tell. I mean, it's, it's always been fairly steep competition, wouldn't you say?
[00:06:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Oh yeah. Hands down.
[00:06:50] Joe Pilgram: Yep. And, yeah, at some point, guys stop dancing. My wife and I have a couple of kids and, and they dance to music. I think lots of kids dance to music, but at some point they either get shamed or feel ashamed or feel awkward, or maybe they just go into sports hardcore or, and they don't think about dance. But, another brief story is my dad. I was watching something and I don't even remember--it must've been the Olympics or maybe it was a pre-Olympic show that involved dancing. And I was, and I mentioned something, he said, "Well, that's pretty impressive what they're doing." And I said, "That looks easy." And he said, "Why don't you try it?" And I found out pretty quickly, it wasn't as easy as I thought. Yeah.
[00:07:48]But yeah, it was definitely stuff that, that I found interesting. You know, it's a form of art that is very physical, with your body being your instrument, you know. If you play piano, your fingers are very important, but you can replace the strings on the piano. You can tune the piano. A dancer's body, you know, has a limited amount of time, as far as what it can do. And, your whole body is your instrument. And so you, you start talking with people that are much wiser than you, that have lived longer, that help you understand how important it is to take care of your body if you want to have a lengthy dance career.
[00:08:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. I have those conversations with my students regularly about how important it is to think of your long-term plan, not just your short term disappointment that you can't do something because you're injured. Because those injuries, if you don't take care of them, can develop into something that does end your future, right? So thinking about in terms of, "Okay, I missed out on this one opportunity, which is disappointing," but ultimately, like you said, you only have you, so you've got to protect your body and treat it right.
[00:09:11] Joe Pilgram: Yes. Yeah. And, also sometimes those injuries change your trajectory, or maybe how you interpret things as an artist, how am I gonna, how am I gonna work through this? Because when you're dancing professionally, sometimes you don't collect a paycheck if you don't perform. So you have to find ways either to make sure that you don't get injured, or how am I going to work through this safely? Can I alter this? Can I sculpt this thing differently and still get, you know, the, the idea across that I'm hoping to do?
[00:09:53]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's a really good point too, because there are certain circumstances where that's really important. I mean, I think both of us have dealt with that at various points in our career to just sort of, okay, this isn't going to work the way it used to anymore. For me, it's always back-related things, so I can't bend like that anymore. So how can we do this safely? Yeah. And supportive. So, yeah, absolutely. Cool. Okay. So then, all right. You went to UMKC, you got your degree in dance. And then where did life take you after that?
[00:10:32] Joe Pilgram: From there, while at UMKC, they offered professional dance experiences and worked with Wylliams-Henry Dance Theater, and gained some great knowledge, worked with some great choreographers through them. While at the same time, working with a couple of local dance studios that needed guys to perform in their Christmas shows, whether it be a "Nutcracker" or "Coppelia." I think we did "Sleeping Beauty," "Cinderella," that the classic ballets that are performed. And so that, that really bumped up my level of partnering really. Because that was why the studios would bring me in around Christmas time and that was something that was, you know, it was great that UMKC had those opportunities to provide. But, did those, and ended up heading down to Branson, Missouri, I'd probably say around 2004 and work a show there.
[00:11:39] The job itself actually felt more like factory work because it was cookie cutter dancing in the aspect of when you do a concert dancing, you know, it's artistic and it's all about the dancer, but when you go and do a show for somebody like Andy Williams, he's the headliner and you're the icing on the cake. You, you aid to them. And, you do, I don't know--I think with, with some of these shows, you do 200 of the same shows in a year, a couple of shows a day, depending on what the show was. And if it was, you know, around Christmas, I think Branson, Missouri's Christmas season started up November 1st. And, I know to maintain my sanity during that time, because you'd start rehearsals-- sometimes you'd have Christmas rehearsals in August, and you'd hear Christmas music starting that early. And to maintain your sanity, you'd find other things such as The Beach Boys to listen to, to throw your mind into like a different state to go, "Okay. I need to get someplace else so that I can get through this." And, well, like I said, the opportunity was a great opportunity. Sometimes you don't know what you want until you try something and you go, "Okay, that was all right. But I think I want something different."
[00:13:16] That's the beauty of working in the United States that you're not sealed into doing something that you, you don't want to do that. You can work towards finding that perfect job. A lot of times there'll be people that complain about different work. And I had a, a guy at Shoji's--we were complaining about rehearsals or something. And he, he said a hilarious line. We were complaining about something small, but we felt like it was a big issue. And, he was an older fellow that was in the army at one point, he was in Vietnam and that was his response was, "Well, this sure beats Vietnam." Okay. And that, and that shut us up pretty quick. Really puts things into perspective. We were like, "Okay. Yeah, yeah. He's totally right. Everything is great here. We're doing fine. We're not in a war."  But, yeah, my journey from Branson took me back to the Kansas City area where I started working with Storling Dance Theater, and I ended up meeting you performing in that company. So that was a blessing.
[00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.
[00:14:35] Joe Pilgram: And, then worked with you in your dance company, VidaDance. And, so had some, some fun doing that, and now you and I kinda catch up when we can, just to do independent work together and, yeah. That creative process, we can chat about that in a little bit. I always find it fascinating. Yeah. It's pretty cool.
[00:14:57] Lindsey Dinneen: It is cool. Yeah, actually, I think we should dive into that 'cause that is kind of a unique thing that we've been able to find this kind of synergy in the way that we approach music and choreography and all of that. And it's, you know, it's not necessarily the typical way of creating new work, but we've actually been really happy with the results of it. And I think, because we infuse so much sort of joy into the process, it's really obvious to our audiences too. And I think that that's kind of a fun, it's a fun, unique thing. So yeah. I'd love if you chat more about that.
[00:15:33] Joe Pilgram: Oh, definitely. Yeah. A lot of times when we get together, we've both been working so hard and pulled in different directions that we might show up and not have even focused on a specific song. We might not even know a song that we're going to dance to and haven't thought about any kind of movement to it. And so we show up and say, "Hey, how's it going?" And then we just start moving around, and yeah, art tends to just transpire. It's actually magical that it happens the way that it does it. I don't think that usually happens with other dance related choreography that, that I've ever fiddled with. Usually I racked my brain trying to think of, of things, but when we catch up, usually there's a, yeah, there's definitely joy involved and just art happens. It's, it's phenomenal.
[00:16:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, it is. And it's, it's really fun too, because I mean, one of the craziest examples that I can think of right off the bat is in this case, we did know kind of what the task at hand was. We knew that we needed to create a really fresh take on the "Nutcracker," you know, sort of grand pas de deux because it is, it's kind of a well-known thing. But when we created "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker," it was really important to us that we create something that was unique and was sort of the VidaDance approach. Yeah. And I don't, I had like a series of unfortunate events the morning that we were supposed to start this piece. And I was, I was so late to rehearsal. I was probably--how much time do you think we actually had to start that piece?
[00:17:36] Joe Pilgram: I think we had about a month, but when I say a month it was like four or five rehearsals.
[00:17:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it was crazy. And so in that particular day, we had like two things on the docket and I needed to do another thing right after it. I just remember like getting into the, into the studio, thinking, "Oh my goodness, we're starting from scratch. I have nothing in my head." And we just started moving to the music and that's a pretty epic pas that we created. It's really fun. It, the process is so fun when you can just kind of play around. But I think, you know, one of the things is so interesting-- an audience member pointed out to us last year after we finished performing--was, "t's obvious that you to trust each other a lot." And trust is such an important element in creating, you know, partnered choreography. Do you want to talk about that at all? 'Cause that was, that's definitely something that's like, especially free for you-- I mean, you're lifting, you're spinning, you're, you know, you're doing--oh, my gosh--is it ever like super intimidating or are you just like, "No, I've got this."
[00:18:46] Joe Pilgram: You know, I had never really thought about this until maybe having kids or getting married, but I always knew my limitations, but that's because I was always pushing my boundaries growing up. And I, you know, as an artist in general, I think that's really important to keep that in mind is, you know, having not being restricted, not, not cutting yourself short on experimenting with different things. And I remember just even running through the creek with my brother, pretending to be ninjas and jumping across the creek, or, you know, sometimes you'd make it. And sometimes you wouldn't, but at those moments, I didn't realize that I was calibrating my system and finding those boundaries. And so when it came to partnering, I already was familiar with what I could and couldn't do. And so, you know, it, it became second nature. And for the most part, it wasn't about me when I partner, that it was always about the person I was partnering, that the main focus was, make them look good. And I, I take a lot of joy in doing that. I think I like to help people. And that is a hands-on, direct thing that can happen on with doing pas de deux work is you're making someone look, you know, the best that they can, whether it's doing more turns than they usually could on pointe or, or flying them through the air for a lengthier amount of time. And, and I get a kick out of that.
[00:20:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, you. Yes. And I think that you've mentioned before you actually don't really prefer solo work. It's more partnering that, that really kind of resonates with you. Is that?
[00:20:56] Joe Pilgram: Yes, definitely true. Yeah. I, I'm not a soloist. I can do solo work, but I prefer not to, I believe that yeah, being out there--and I've joked with you that like hiding behind you is so much easier as a dancer. You know, obviously this, you know, I'm  helping you stay on balance or, you know, different things, that, that we collaborate together. And I think there's a lot of fun in that collaboration process.
[00:21:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I agree, yes. And, and just to be clear for anyone who's listening, who maybe hasn't hasn't had a behind-the-scenes sort of glimpse into the rehearsal process, but let's wait, there are a lot of funny moments that happen when we're rehearsing and the lift or something doesn't quite go as planned. I mean, thankfully, you know, as an audience member, you get to see this final image and it's, it's glorious and it's wonderful, but, yeah, it's, it is not always like that. So yes, yes, yes. Yeah.
[00:22:04]Joe Pilgram: Well, part of that is, is, you know, a to add to that backstory is I've never dropped a partner, which gives you the confidence to go, "Well, he's going to swing me upside down. My head's going to be close to the floor as we take this pendulum-like swing and then he's going to flip me back up."
[00:22:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes.
[00:22:29] Joe Pilgram: And having that, that confidence that I'm not going to drop you is huge. Now, when we were getting into the move and getting out of it is just as important artistically. And so those are the moments where, you know, things might be a little awkward where we're like, "Huh. Well, you did that little shimmy shake in the video that didn't really fit with the ballet. What was going on?" "Oh, well I had to reposition my legs and then you were moving your arms." And so, yeah. There's yeah, we get to, to try and try again during that rehearsal process, which is, is key to cleaning and, and, and making things look finished, but it's a lot is discovered in that rehearsal process.
[00:23:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Because the two of us tend to work by ourselves, without necessarily a third person to comment during the, at least the creation process of it, we actually utilize video quite a bit to capture it and then watch ourselves and go, "Oh, that didn't work very well. What is my leg doing," or whatever. And so that's part of our process first. And then kind of at the end is when we bring in, you know, other people to go, "Oh, it didn't really read for me or, you know, whatever it needs to be." So yeah. That's fun. Yeah. So, yes. So I was wondering if any stories come to mind, either like funny behind-the-scenes stories or a time when you felt really inspired or just is there anything that kinda stands out in your mind as, "Oh gosh, this is a moment to remember."
[00:24:11] Joe Pilgram: Oh, there's lots of them. How long do you have--two hours now? Oh, man. Yeah, there's, there's definitely been some, some silly stories. You've experienced a couple of them where I've ripped my pants. But, this is a great story. Yeah, the show must go on, right? I believe that was in a rehearsal. We were, I had bought these dress pants to perform. We were getting ready to do a show in Paola, and Lindsey, you were supposed to run facing me on a diagonal and then jump into the air and do a 180 degree turn and then land on my shoulder. And I squat down a little bit lower and I, and I go to lift you and during that time, there was a, a girl that was interested in your company and we just met her like maybe 15 minutes before and said, "Hey, you want to stick around and you can, you can check out our rehearsal."
[00:25:16] And, so you, you went running toward me, jumped into the air and I squatted down. And most people are familiar with when you have a can of biscuits that you get from the grocery store and you unravel that cardboard, and then you hit it on the, the cabinet, you know, the corner of something to get it to pop. And that's just what my pants sounded like. Yeah. And they exploded, the seat of my pants completely exploded, right in front of the person that we just met. So from there, I think I sit you down as gracefully as possible while backing up away from everyone and said, "I'll be back. I need to change my trousers." But that's happened in live in one show when I was in Branson and I had to kick my leg over my partner shortly after that. And pull her through my legs in a swing dance type move.
[00:26:21] And, oh, I, I was laughing hysterically. Well, I was holding my breath, trying not to laugh on stage. And then, yeah, when we left stage, we were both laughing pretty hard. And another time it happened just before the curtain went up and I had to race backstage and change into another set of jeans that did not match what anybody else was wearing. And that was a question after the show, they're like, "Hey, your jeans didn't match that first number. What happened?" I'm like, "Yeah, I was stretching and I jumped into the air. And then when I landed, they, they split out." But, it's yeah, I've been cursed with that, but, but yeah, it's definitely been other humorous stories, behind the scenes, things that do occur.
[00:27:09] Another one was when I was doing Shoji's. Yeah. And we were supposed to come out as tap dancing soldiers. They had this Christmas tree that was, it had hydraulics that, that allowed the Christmas tree to split in two and open up like a double doors. And these tap dancing toy soldiers would come out. And, we're getting ready to go out and we hear our music coming and then the stage techs, which they're a huge role, you know, it's one of those things, stage techs, whether it's in pro wrestling or theater, other sorts that they're, they're very important, but it's also, they're like backstage ninjas. You don't actually see them work. And so, the tech pushes the button to open the hydraulic tree and we hear him go, "The button didn't work, the tree's not opening." And it sounded like from a movie like "Predator," where you have this war type scene and things are going wrong. And, so the music's playing, the tree doesn't open and one of the guys gets on the radio and he said, "Guys, the tree isn't opening." And this, we probably lost about 15 seconds in which I think at least 12 soldiers were supposed to march out on stage, toy soldiers.
[00:28:38] And one of the texts says on the radio, we'll tell them to go around the tree. And, the original tech standing by says, he said, "Just go, go around the tree and dance." And the dance captain looks at him and says, "We don't know where we are." And he meant to say, "The music has started and our starting point has passed. We don't know where we are in the music." And he looked, yeah, he says, "We don't know where we are. " And you know, the guy looks at us, quizzically, the tech. And then he hesitantly gets on the radio and says, "He said he doesn't know where he is." And we hear the other guy on the far end shout, "He's behind the tree." Just the misinterpretation of, you know, the context of the wording and everything coming together and just miscommunication. But, yes, lots of humerous experiences that, that do occur.
[00:29:39] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. That is such a good example of miscommunication. When the two worlds' sort of languages and common phrases don't translate because that makes complete sense to me as a dancer going, "Yeah, of course you don't know where you are in the music. That makes complete sense." But of course, that sounds absurd to someone else. Like, "Well, you're right here. Nothing's changed." Oh, I love it. I love it.
[00:30:08] Joe Pilgram: But, but yeah, dance has been an interesting journey. You know, with it being a conglomeration, I feel, of other artistic elements. You know, most of the time we dance with music, but there are some times where we dance with no music. Dancing with live music is different than dancing with prerecorded music. And, and interpreting dance and making those connections with other forms of art, whether it's music, how you have the dynamics of sustained notes or loud and soft pianissimo. And, and, what's the other one? Is it fortissimo?
[00:30:57] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds right, but it's been awhile.
[00:31:00]Joe Pilgram:  But, but we interpret those with our movement and whether our movement, we have high notes. You think about dynamics and things that make things interesting. And as an artist in general, whether it's spoken word, music, theater, even graphic design. How are you going to use these colors? Well, this is a bright color or, you know, moments like that, that we take in as dancers. And we go, "Okay, well, this is we're going to find something that's symmetrical. Okay. This part's going to be asymmetrical. Okay. This part's going to be--so-and-so's going to be on the ground and this other person's going to be in the air," and it's taken all of these elements in from, from different angles of art and applying it choreographically to make it an interesting thing.
[00:31:58] You know, that I had, a teacher at UMKC, it was Catherine Plotkin and she said, "You know, there's two ways that you can interpret this. You can have dance that tells a story, or you can have dance for dance's sake." And when I look at dance for dance's sake, I think about a kaleidoscope of shapes, moving from lines and curves and different designs happening, which, you know, falls under abstract art. As far as when you're watching a performance, some people don't get that, and we hope to, to allow them to, we want to bring them in. We want to show them, you know, whether it's from the description of the piece or maybe just a, a small writeup, and even you had mentioned that you don't want. Dance does seem like this insider's club, like, "Oh, you know, they don't, they don't get it because they're not artistic enough." And that doesn't seem like a great avenue, at least in my opinion to take. What was your take on that? I think maybe you're in the same boat.
[00:33:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely think that art shouldn't be an exclusive club at all. I think that art is really special. It, it helps people grow and connect and feel alive, feel all sorts of different emotions. And I think that whenever we, as artists, can connect with someone who doesn't have the same experience, I think that's a really special moment of humanity coming together. So yeah. That's you, you said it perfectly.
[00:33:55] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. Yup. Just taking those, those dynamics and you even touched on something when you said it, the feeling and I think in general, art should make people feel something. You know, you want to feel alive, whether it's happiness, sorrow, the gamut of emotion, you know, a wide range of emotions. But dance just feels like this outward expression of something that's like an inward feeling.
[00:34:24]Lindsey Dinneen: I know this is a tough question to answer, but are there any pieces that you've performed that really stand out to you as being extra meaningful or special or something like that? Just, you know, specifically things that kind of stand out as, "Wow. That was a really cool experience. Or I, I really could connect with the audience here," or, or anything like that.
[00:34:48]Joe Pilgram: Well, a lot of the pieces that you and I have done . But the stuff we've done together from "On a Whim," I enjoyed that, to even the "Nutcracker" that we did. You know, it was, I think there's a lot of passion, I think in the, the creative process that you and I enjoy versus, you know, performing is a great thing. And that's, that's your way of sharing it. I think that's that term, share, is more key to, to not being locked up as an artist and not being paralyzed as an artist because when you start thinking of it as a competition, then you start worrying about what are other people gonna think, "Is this good enough?" And, and I've been in those places where artistically I've had this giant block and, how do you work past that? You know, it's, for me as a Christian, through prayer and listening to the Lord that He gives you that, that confidence and says, "You got this, you have everything, the gift, the gifts that I've given you. Don't don't let these things beat you up. Don't slow down."
[00:36:19] A friend of mine, we were talking about one of my sons that has high-functioning autism. And she had said, "I think God makes up each kid and gives them gifts. I've watched kids in my career get medicine to help calm them down. And it changed who they were. What if the gifts they were supposed to have are supposed to be there. And what if their strength, or their super power, is something that we change and alter their personality to make them fit into a system better?" And, I really respected what she said with that. WE, there, there are signs of people all over. I think Steven Spielberg is a huge one. I believe he has dyslexia. And look at the amazing things that he's done with what people would say is something that's crippling, but he found ways artistically to, to bring out that, that super power. And, it's the same with, with my son, Timmy, how he, he sees the world differently and I really appreciate seeing the world through his eyes because, yeah, he, he just has this really interesting way and there, there is no fear in trying stuff. He hasn't gotten caught up in how things are supposed to be, which I think is key to an artist.
[00:37:54]Even Giorgio Moroder, the godfather of electronic dance music, had stated in the song with daft punk called "Giorgio by Moroder," you know, he talks about as experimental process. If, if you haven't heard that song, it's, it's a pretty cool song to listen to. It's was definitely influential and I've played it to my students, through the years just to let them know, 'cause he was from a small town and he didn't think that he had a chance, but he started tinkering around with a synthesizer. And I want to say he said something about the concept of harmony and then just, you know, you have a certain amount of rules, but how do you break through those rules? You know, if somebody is telling you this is the way it has to be, then some people don't question why they just, they just follow that instead of asking that important question.
[00:38:57] Well, why, and some of us out there, you know, your artists, your engineers, your creative people, that's what it is, at the root, is trying to unlock the creativity in people in general. Yeah, that's, it's, one of those things that took me a while to understand that. And I want to say Hanan Misko, he had said, you know, as an educator, that it's important to him as an educator to help unlock those, those hidden superpowers of those talents, you know, to enhance it. I think that's additionally, what I think about with partnering and marriage. I know it's like all different kinds of things that come at you, but, you know, that the person that you marry, you know, you should enhance each other's lives. And I feel like that's how dance partnering is artistically, that we're enhancing the audience's experience through the partnering process. And, rolling back to educators, that's it's not, telling these young fertile minds, this is the only way to do something. It's, it's hard to just sit there even as a parent, when you ask your kids to do something, it's better to give them a little wiggle room and see where they take something.
[00:40:36] Instead of what we usually do is we, as parents become impatient and we go, "Oh, just give me that. Let me, let me do that for you," instead of how maybe you and I grew up, it was, it was different. And our parents did give us that freedom to make mistakes, which rolls into a Bob Ross saying, " There are no mistakes. We just have happy accidents." And yes. Yeah. I mean, that's how you and I have even fiddled with the dance process, but you know, the kids' discovery process artistically to grow, or I say artistically, I really creatively because, because if you have creativity, I think that's actually a more marketable skill. With creativity, you can apply that to mathematics, to the language arts, to dance, to other forms of art and just finding different ways, whether it's to get to the same point or to have, you know, mold and sculpt and, and unlock something new.
[00:41:50] That's a story that my dad had told me, about air conditioning and its invention. And I, I don't know if you were familiar with it or not, but it was these guys that wanted to get the, the air conditioned. The humidity level would fluctuate and they were printing stuff. And so when it was laying down the print, I want to say it had to go through three times and it was, you know, something like blue, red, and yellow, or, something along those lines, the different colors. And so it had to be perfectly lined up well. In between the humidity might change and cause the paper to expand. And now the ink doesn't line up. So they figured out how to condition that air to make it very even, and the by-product was what you and I are comfortable with with air conditioning in the summertime. And have a really happy accident. Wow. Yeah. I have cooler temperatures inside your house in the, in the heat of the summer.
[00:43:04]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. I, that's a great, that's the perfect illustration of a happy accident and how sometimes you just have to be creative and maybe try it a few different ways and keep tinkering away. And if, like you said, if you're, if you're creative and you're not putting yourself or someone else in a box and saying, "This is, there's one way, no other ways." Yeah, I really think it's when you start exploring that, that is where the magic happens and that is where these cool things get invented and, and, and everything. And all of that is an art form, kind of in and of itself. Well, that's great. Those are some really great insights and fantastic stories. So thank you, Joe, so much for sharing. I do have a couple of questions. I always like to ask my guests if you're up for that.
[00:43:53] Joe Pilgram: Alrighty.
[00:43:54] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:44:01]Joe Pilgram: Wow. Art could be so many different things. you know, for, for me, it's definitely passion. Whether it's, you know, I use art as a way to, to get my emotions out, to be able to dance it out. But other people as an art will sling paint or, you know, do different things. I believe that musician Sting, like the best songs that he wrote when he was with the police, he talked about, it was when it was a really bad time in his life, he and his wife were having problems and some of his best art came out at that moment. And I, I feel that, you know, art is definitely a, a human expression, that, that we all have.  I guess I look more at other artists for the guidance in that realm, that it's, you know, it should be something that's explored, that it's something you create. You have people that are, that are machinists that some create some pretty fascinating stuff. 3D printer guys, doing things with that, and I don't know if I know you asked me what, what I think it is. I might throw this little plug in here from Felicia Rashad and it was, she was talking about art and she said, "Children," and she said, "Before they write, they draw. Before they stand, they dance. Art is a human expression. It's a fundamental human expression." And so I, I guess I'd like to hop on her bandwagon with that.
[00:45:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. I've always loved that quote. It is, it is so true. It's so, yeah, fundamental is the right word. Okay, great. Well, and secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:46:13] Joe Pilgram: I believe that as artists, we should hopefully be able to, when people see it, that it reflects whether it's the personal things going on with that person, or maybe it's things going on around them that, that, content shapes context, is it? No, I want to say it's the other way around that context shapes content. And a Rodney Mullen, professional skater that I've told you about several times that that's, what he talks about is when he sees, you're going out and he talks about how the environment, how can the environment change the very nature of what I do. And I think as artists, that's an ebb and flow ever changing. A lot of the times that as artists, I don't think we ever stand still. Do you?
[00:47:13] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I don't. I think I, in one form or another there's something, there's something. I don't think I do. Yeah.
[00:47:23] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. And like you, hope to find you hope to be content. I think that's what we strive for is to be content, you know, or definitely happy with something that we're sharing with the world that you're, you're putting out there. I think, you know, being, being content with it is know, a, a big thing with art. We can always nitpick and tear things, you know, make things better. We feel, but, it never seems like your work is done. You could come back two years later and look at the same piece that you did and feel differently about, you know, your, your concept of what it was based on. And, you and I have probably experienced this with choreographers that set something on you, and then they say, "Oh, so-and-so is coming back to restage this piece on everyone." And in your mind, as an individual artist, as a dancer, you think, "Oh, this'll be easy. I already know this piece inside of the house," and the choreographer comes in, and there's a lot that's changed.
[00:48:42] And, you know, to, to maybe finalize on that is, you know, you see different quotes around. And even at my work, one of my work buddies has a thing posted up that says something along the lines of "Perfection is the enemy of the good." Like, you can have something that's really good, but maybe not perfect, but to get something perfect, it's like, you're going to reduce morale. You can tear yourself up terribly, emotionally trying to get something 100% perfect. And finding that contentment and going, "Yeah, I think I'm, I'm okay with that."
[00:49:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. I have a saying, a mantra for myself and tend to share it of "done is better than perfect." You know, excellence in everything, but ultimately done is better than perfect. You have to get, you have to allow yourself to, to do your best, and to do good and not be so obsessed with chasing perfection that it, it stops you. Perfection kills creativity too. Well, final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit. So inclusive referring to an artist who put something out into the world, whatever it is, and provides some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or, you know, just the inspiration or something. Versus exclusive referring to artists who put something out there, but don't provide any context. So it's exclusively, essentially up to the audience to kind of decide what they think.
[00:50:28] Joe Pilgram: You know, I, I guess I leave that up to the artist. I think there are moments where maybe I, I choreograph something and not really care because the art has to escape somehow because it gets bottled up in you. And I, I think a lot of artists feel that way, that when, when you're not creating art, it starts hurting other parts in your life. And so I think sometimes it's the artist is going to create something that they don't really care. It just has to get out. And then other times they might be a little bit more inclusive and try to somewhat steer the narrative, but not, not be too controlling with it. You know, just giving a little context clues here and there. Yeah, sometimes you, you see pieces of art that actually--I'll give you an example.
[00:51:36] I, I'd choreographed a piece called "Battlefield for the Mind," but I didn't get it typed up properly. And it came out as "Battlefield of the Mind.? And that one word changed how people interpreted the dance. Because what I was trying to convey was "Battlefield for the Mind" would be controlling people, whether it's through the media or other avenues. But when one of the students that I had came up and asked me. She watched the show and she said, "Oh, I love that piece. What was it about?" and I said,"What did, what did you take from it? What, how did you apply it to yourself?" And she said, "You know, I've been dealing with depression. And for me it was a bunch of different voices and what was going to survive." And I actually loved her interpretation of that,  and that she was able to apply it to herself in that fashion. And so I think both have valid merits, inclusive and exclusive for, for what they are.
[00:53:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That makes absolute sense. So, well, again, thank you so much, Joe, for being a part of this podcast and for sharing your art with the world. Obviously I'm biased. I'm really thankful that you are a dancer and we do get to dance and create together. But, you know, you have many avenues for that and I just appreciate that you do, and speaking of, I know this is kind of a weird time of life for everybody, but under more normal circumstances, you are a ballroom instructor. Is there any way for anyone who's interested in maybe taking lessons with you that they could at least keep in touch when you do resume?
[00:53:43] Joe Pilgram: Yes. Yeah, actually, at this moment, I'm, I'm not teaching obviously with the lockdown that, but if people would like to contact and ask me about dance when ballroom classes would start up, I teach more along the lines of social dance versus choreographed. So it's a, I look at that like Legos or any kind of construction material or scrapbooking material that, that you can have different materials and piece them together in different ways, multiple times. It doesn't have to be the same way you piece it together every time. But, and so with social dance, that's how it is. And, and I teach genuine lead and follow. But people could contact me either by finding my website, which is stjoeballroom.com. And that's STJOEBALLROOM.COM or you can call my, my work phone for the ballroom classes and it's area code (816) 265-1444.
[00:54:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yes. Well, and if anyone is in the market for ballroom instruction, I have to say, Joe is a really, really fun teacher. So he's good at making everyone feel comfortable, even if this is your very first time. And, yeah, there will definitely be a lot of, a lot of laughter and giggles and it'll, it'll be good. Well, thank you again so much, Joe. I really, really appreciate you being here today and, Yeah, I appreciate all that you contribute.
[00:55:22] Joe Pilgram: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
[00:55:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share it with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:55:39]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
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Episode 033 - Debbie Dinneen

In this episode, I welcome Debbie Dinneen! Debbie is the owner of Seasonal People who sculpts and creates original Santas for retail sales and special orders. Her background, growing up in Orange County, CA, plays a significant role in her artistic journey and endeavours, and she delights us with tales of her adventures. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of one of Debbie's original creations!)
 
Get in touch with Debbie Dinneen: http://www.seasonalpeople.com/ 
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Episode 33 - Debbie Dinneen
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.
[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have my mother-in-law on the show today. Her name is Debbie Dinneen, and she is an incredible artist and has wonderful, amazing stories to share from her journey through all sorts of different kinds of art. And Debbie, thank you so much for being here. I'm just so excited to have you.
[00:01:02] Debbie Dinneen: I'm happy to be here. This should be fun.
[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yes. Well, would you mind sharing, to start, sort of your background , maybe kind of your journey of, of how you started dabbling in different art forms, and yeah, maybe what you're up to now too?
[00:01:20] Debbie Dinneen: It, you know, it really is truly a journey. I, I credit a lot of my interests to being raised in Orange County, California, where you're really bombarded with the arts, visual arts, theater, just so many great avenues. And it's tough to pick just one. I started it with a deep interest in theater, and even when I was young, I wanted to be a choreographer. That didn't happen. But I really enjoyed street theater with the Renaissance festivals. I had a lot of exposure to Disney artists and artists from all different areas and walks of life. So I really appreciate having had the opportunity to be raised there. Later in life, I , just before I moved to Kansas, I was working, making tissue heart valves from pigs' heart valves.
[00:02:21] And I still use many of those tools today in my sculpting and Santa making. So that's just one more tool that I had to be able to transfer and apply to sculpting. I went to JOCO [Johnson County Community College] out here for some pottery classes. I was a very poor potter and found myself making odd little things instead. And I had children at home and decided that I was going to start doing sculpting and trying to sell them at some local craft fairs. I started with cave men. One of my favorite pieces was a cave man on a fossilized rock  gritting his teeth with a thorn in his foot. I loved all the natural aspect and using natural fibers and things that we just find in our environment. Later, I decided that I really wanted to express joy and laughter and do it through my art. And I had done it at the Renaissance Festival, creating characters like the Rat Lady, and I really wanted it to come through my art. That's when I decided to start sculpting and making Santas . I use a lot of natural fibers and it just lent well to what I wanted to portray. I noticed that a lot of the Santas available were, were angry looking and I wanted some that looked more fun-- silly if you will, happy. So that's the direction I went.
[00:04:14] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love that it was about celebrating joy and laughter and creating these-- they're amazing, you definitely have to go check out her website and see them , hopefully get one for yourself. Because the detail in these Santas is just incredible and you can definitely see the joy come out. They're so fun. Yeah.
[00:04:42] Debbie Dinneen: I, I like to make action figures, I call them . For example, Santas sledding on their bellies and their beards blowing back in the wind. That's one of my favorites . Santas making wine in half barrels and holding their wine glasses up, stomping grapes with their feet full of, of the wine. It's just fun things. Things that people will want to put around their home during the holiday season that will bring them joy. And happy Santa is a lot more fun than a grumpy one.
[00:05:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, amen to that. Well, and I am, I know because I have the privilege of owning some and also have seen a lot of your work. But one of the things that I think is so amazing about what you do is the level of care and attention to detail. So it's like you mentioned, incorporating natural fibers and things like that. But I know that you literally import specific things when you're looking for it. So can you talk about maybe how, how do you decide, or how did you come to, you know," this is my standard of quality that I infused in this?"
[00:06:00] Debbie Dinneen: That kind of came along with my first experience in retail. And I was actually supplying Santas to what used to be called Everyday's a Holiday at Crown Center. And the gentleman that owned the store had such a good eye. And anytime I make a Santa-- I can only actually remember feeling like this is perhaps a perfect piece and that rarely happens if you're an artist, 'cause we're always striving for perfection and we oftentimes don't feel that we have met that. So, and this man had the ability to spot exactly the same thing that I had a problem with with my Santas. It was uncanny and it was disturbing as well. So I, it really bugged me, but that, that taught me. And in time I learned, you know, if, if my Santas are going to be in a high quality retail environment, I need to meet that challenge. So I do import pelts from, from Tibet , China . I also use , I buy a lot of vintage coats and I learned how to work with the pelts and the fur to use them and incorporate them with my Santas. It's, it's kind of exciting because you get to, because it's, it's a lot of different mediums that you use, not just the clay.
[00:07:34]So I get to use a lot of different fabrics' fibers, and then I incorporate with the Santa. So I get to learn other little side skills like embroidery, sewing, of course.  I, oftentimes my husband would make sleds, sleighs, and help me. He helped me learn how to make the Santa stand independently, which it's a tricky thing and you have to make sure that everything is balanced well, so the Santa remained standing at all times. So it, it really has been a learning experience. And you just keep, you just don't give up. And the first part was learning to sculpt. I did have the ability to see three dimensionally. It's a skill I needed making the tissue heart valves.  It, it lends well to sculpting. And each, with each Santa, you really do learn something, or you and or you go, "Oops. I remember now." And you change your direction or step it up and make it a little bit different. It's, it is really truly a journey of learning.
[00:08:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, all these complementary skillsets then that are completely art-related, but that you've kind of acquired along the way. That's really neat.
[00:09:03]Debbie Dinneen:  I really enjoy going to the store and being outside or inside the store. And I bring clay with me and I really enjoy having the kids come up and I have extra tools for them and some clay and they try their hand at it and they, they love it. And they're excited by it. That's one of my favorite things to do.
[00:09:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how fun! Yeah, I'm sure they are so delighted by it. So when you're creating a new work, is it often an inspiration that comes from finding, you know, what ends up being a cute little prop or accessory in your finished creation? Or does it happen where it's maybe more commissioned, someone says, "I'm looking for this type of Santa."
[00:09:54] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's interesting that you ask that. I just completed a piece for a local Kansas City barbecue , Rosedale Barbecue in Kansas City. And it was a piece of , the granddaughter. The, the grandfather started it like 81 years ago, and the granddaughter wanted a piece to honor her grandfather. And it was a very emotional thing for her. She really loves her, loved her grandpa. So I ended up making a smoker out of, I think it was 950 bricks , little bricks and then side pieces, their sign , and the Santa, instead of sculpting just a Santa, I sculpted her, her grandfather from pictures that she supplied me. So that I that's my favorite kind of thing to do, because if I, if it's something so special to them, then I'm so much more invested.
[00:10:58] Then there's times when I know, for example, that people really enjoy the wine Santas and I enjoy making them because it makes people laugh and it's funny, and it's something that they haven't seen before. It, inspiration can even come --I may find one little antique or vintage item that is special and I, and I then will build a whole Santa around that. And , and if they tell a story by visually I, I, my that's part of my goal as well. So anything you add to it gives it more depth and meaning, and I love doing a special order Santas simply because, you know, this person is invested in it, and you work so hard to make them feel happy about the finished product.
[00:11:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. And so when you're going about creating, especially these special works, do you always go in a certain order when you're creating your Santas, or is it kind of, you know, maybe one day you, you feel like sewing, so you'll do the coat. And then the next day, you know, you're ready to sculpt or does it, does it kind of flow like that? Do you have a, or is it very specific?
[00:12:24] Debbie Dinneen: You know, that's a really good question because many pieces are really different. Like when I took on this challenge of the Rosedale Barbecue Santa, I felt like the greatest challenge for me was going to be making the smoker. And it was a challenge. But it turned out really well. So I felt really good about it, but I felt like I had to do that before sculpting his head and his hands. And I think because I knew for me it was something I had not done before. And, and I knew it would be the most challenging thing for me. So yeah, in that case, I did it that way. And then you, you basically, you build them from the ground up.
[00:13:16] So for example, the wine Santas, I would start with the wine barrel , fill it with materials to keep it weighted at the bottom, then put layers of the grapes and then a layer of liquid glass paint to make it look wet. And already I've got a wire running up through the bottom of it, so the Santa can be built onto that wire armature. And so I will build that up and I, I always have to remember to get the pants on over that wire before I go any further, or then you have a Santa with no pants. So when that thinks that piece needs to be built in a specific order, so they're all a little bit different. And each one presents their own challenge. Even if they're just sitting, you have to make sure that they can sit and stay seated in an upright position. So these are all little tricks of the trade that you learn along the way.
[00:14:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I know that when you create your Santas, they each come with a very personalized card. And so what do you share on those cards? Is it, is it the different things that are unique to it, or how does that?
[00:14:40] Debbie Dinneen: That is, is exactly right. I try to take the time to write what special items I have incorporated into the piece. I'm like, if I had used Mongolian lamb's wool or mink from a vintage coat I like to, or bridal satin, I use a lot-- I like to let people know what special things go into them--or the crystal eyeballs. And I make their own teeth myself. I make their tongues and their tonsils and my Santas are really known for their open mouth smiles. And that's what makes them look so good.
[00:15:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I love these Santas. They're so, they're so fun. They're so whimsical and yeah. So I'm kind of curious because, all right, 'cause you'd mentioned a couple of times, you know, your, your actual job experience back in California, like you said, helps you with your sculpting, what would turn into your sculpting skills. But I'm curious, have you always had a really steady hand? 'Cause I would think that with the intricacies that you were working with and that you still do, that would be challenging. Like I, I'm sure I wouldn't be successful at that.
[00:16:00] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's funny. I didn't feel like I had a lot of great motor skills that way, small motor skills. But once I had done that job for the lab , and most of our work was done under a microscope, and they were the first tissue heart valve made from pigs. Heart valves is pretty delicate work. And I think that really helped tune and hone my physical skills . Even an example is, we would use a blanket stitch on the stent, which we put the valve in. We'd use a blanket stitch, which of course, you know, you use when you sew, so the two together working with small things, small tools, being able to see in three dimensions , it all kind of came together and was helpful for me. And then I think perhaps overexposure to Disneyland Disney artists. My, my maid of honor at my wedding was a Disney artist. As a matter of fact, I brought her there to, to apply for the job myself and she cartooned for them for years. So, I and, and wanting things to just be happy and full of joy. That's what I wanted to portray through my Santas. And I think I really do think my exposure to Disneyland and being raised in Orange County probably played a big role in that.
[00:17:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I'm sure that it did.
[00:17:40]Debbie Dinneen: We were kind of a humorous family, and we love theater and entertain. It's just really a fortunate, fortunate thing I think to be, to be around. And we've just always been silly. What can I say?
[00:17:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well, I can attest to that and I love it. Yeah. So, okay. So I know that at one point in time, you had an opportunity to maybe-- and please correct me if any of the details are wrong-- but had an opportunity to maybe take your Santas and mass produce them. And you ended up deciding against that. Can you speak to that? I'm just really, that is a, that was a huge, bold step, which I, you know, have totally respect, but it's, I'd love to hear about that. 
[00:18:32] Debbie Dinneen: The decision I made was simply because it's a really tough thing for a manufacturer to replicate exactly your piece. And in most cases, If you try that, it's not done well enough. There's a local company here in Kansas City that did the best job ever on somebody else's Santas. And I would have to have had that standard as well. That opportunity never occurred, but most of the reproductions are done in China and you don't have a lot of control, and the quality is never as good as what you can do yourself. So I decided that I'm better off staying small-scale and doing what I really love and being able to do whatever I want. It, there's a lot to be said for working independently and not having to you know, like quibble with somebody--how many buttons you can have on the Santa's coat or or what colors. And so for me, the creative process is making each one exactly the way I want it. Unless of course it's a special order. Then I collaborate.' I love to take people's ideas in that case. And oftentimes they'll bring me childhood toys of theirs or their children's toys or grandparents' pictures , all kinds of things, so that I've, over the years, incorporated into their special order Santa. And that that's really a fun thing. It's all about being able to have the freedom to create and make people happy with the results.
[00:20:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely right. You touched on the fact that, you know, it could be what maybe they would consider to be a small detail, like the number of buttons, but to you there's intention and there's purpose behind that. So it makes complete sense that, you know, as an artist, you want to continue to feel very proud of what you create, and so I just want to circle back to the Renaissance Festival because I, I know you spent years actually doing that and you talk about your love of theater and performing, and I know you and your husband had a whole set of very well-known characters. Do you want to share more about some stories from that?
[00:21:18] Debbie Dinneen: Sure. I created, I got exposed to the Renaissance Festivals in California and, and there did a jester, and that was my original character. And then moved to Kansas and immediately got involved with the festival out here, which at the time was a benefit for the Kansas City Art Institute. And lots of the Hallmark artists were involved. We had great times. I created a character called the Rat Lady. Because somebody told me I couldn't, and what I did was I got a dozen dead rats from KU Med Center, and they were donated to me, and I had them mummified. And the Rat Lady was a mad woman who believed she protected people from the plague by having them kiss the dead rat on the lips. Well, these were pretty disgusting, but they were safe and men all over the Kansas City area were kissing these rats on the lips. It was just awful, but I had a good time doing it. I would say, I would say after they kissed him on the lips, I told them it would help protect them from the plague.
[00:22:29] The irony is of course that the fleas on the rats actually helped spread the plague and they would come off the merchant ships. And that's one of the ways that the plague was spread so widely, but I would say, "Oh, look, his lips have brought it off his face." And the, the wives would always grab their husbands and drag them off. It was hilarious. And then Tim, my wonderful husband, is very kind of quiet and shy. And so he created a character, the Kissing Beggar and he held a sign, "Kisses: One Penny" and, and he would actually sell kisses for a penny. People, husbands would give him a penny or a dollar and just go, go say, "Go kiss my wife." And the wives would run, but they enjoyed getting their picture taken with Tim. So it became a family event. Even our son as a small child and a baby was out at the festival in costume. I performed in California, Texas, and Kansas City. And It was after that, that I started doing Santas.
[00:23:40]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Do you ever miss those days and would you ever consider going back and doing it again?
[00:23:46] Debbie Dinneen: You know, I kind of miss it. I remember some of my memories were going to sleep at night, hearing people, screaming, "Rat Lady, Rat Lady." It got to the point that I couldn't hide and eat lunch because somebody wanted me to come out to get a picture. I had a whole string of dead rats. I had several upon my body. I wore--this is really bad--but I would catch flies in jars, freeze them for a couple of minutes, stick them on my face with spirit gum. Spirit gum is used to put on beards, mustaches, that sort of thing. Very tacky. I get the fly out of the freezer, put it on my face. It would warm up and wake up and be buzzing and flapping. And so that made people wonder, "how does she do that?" One man even turned around and slapped me in the face. He was, he was panicked because he saw these flies on my face. I usually had at least four. And, and I thought, "Hey, he slapped me!" It was, it was hilarious. It was the oddest reaction that I'd gotten. But my word, yeah, I got, I was removed from the top of the Crown by security. I was doing a radio show. And that was, it was the only time I've ever been removed from somewhere. But you know, when you're in rags and you look dirty and you have rats , it's really dubious. So it was appropriate.
[00:25:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.
[00:25:20] Debbie Dinneen: I did a lot of the local TV and radio here, and enjoy enjoyed doing that as well, and schools, personal appearances at schools. So switching gears to doing Santas was really good for, for my family. And for me , generated extra income. I didn't have to drag my kids out in all kinds of weather. So it was a really good transition. And I still do that to this day. My Santas are at Crown Center in Occasions. And believe it or not, it was the first store I started out in, and it was Everyday's a Holiday then. It's Occasions now on the second floor . I've sold my Santas for a few years down at Big Cedar Lodge in Branson. I'm just in one store now. And I do sell directly from my website, which is seasonalpeople.com. So I'm still making them and I still enjoy it.
[00:26:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I just am curious: are there any stories that come to your mind as sort of, you know, either funny things that happened related to the arts or heartwarming or something that kind of has stuck in your memory as a moment to remember, because you just want to hold on to that encounter with art?
[00:26:51] Debbie Dinneen: You know, there have been some moments. I was in selling at a store, in a store on the Plaza and it was just heartwarming to see people coming in and enjoying just looking at them, whether they bought them or not. And just hearing the nice comments and seeing that the kids that just love the Santas, and to me being there and getting to see people's reactions is really fun. There is one time , the lady didn't know that I was in the store and I was kind of behind something. I, I heard her say, "Oh my God, that is hideous. I would never have one of those in my house." I laughed so hard! And I appreciated hearing that reaction because some people find sculpture or doll-like sculptures kind of scary. So to hear her make that comment, and it just tickled me to death. Than I, I never said to her, "Oh, I made that," because I didn't want her to feel bad, but you know, right. This goes to show you: everybody has a different idea or thoughts on what a Santa should be, and some I do are very traditional. I actually got a lot of reaction from a Santa that I do that is drunk and he's on his back. He's got a bag with alcohol in it. He has a gum, chewed gum on the bottom of his shoe that he stepped on and a, a wrapper from, or a receipt from the liquor store, and his tongue is hanging out. And he's just flat on his back and it's actually a pretty cute piece, but people really would find that funny too.   That's a special piece and I like to see people's reactions with that.
[00:28:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And how cool to be able to witness somebody else witnessing your art and hear their reactions. Oh my word, that one lady.
[00:29:00] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, most of the time it's really, really complimentary. When I heard that, I could not help but laugh, and I didn't want her to feel bad. So I went around this area where she couldn't see me to do my laughing. And it, it's good because you know what you don't ever want to get too arrogant as an artist. You don't ever want to think your stuff is the best, in my opinion. So it's good to hear that kind of honest response and it keeps you in your place. You know what I mean? So, yeah. That's all part of it and I would never think that mine is the best or that mine are perfect. Like I said, in all these years, I've only done like one that I couldn't find fault with. I've made a lot of Santas over the years, so, you know, it's-- I don't know if it's an artist thing, where we just don't feel we're ever good enough--but I don't ever want to make that mistake of feeling that I'm superior because  I think you can get in trouble that way. You've always got to be hungry and keep trying.
[00:30:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Good advice. Well, and I think that is so important because I think as artists, we are striving for excellence, and perfection is just not something that can be reached in art, is what I've decided. I agree because it's always subjective too, like you probably are very proud of the work.   Should be very proud of the work that you create because you do put your, you put yourself in your art and your soul into creating these beautiful works of art, but ultimately somebody can look at it and go, "Oh yeah, that's not for me. You know? And same with every other kind of art."
[00:30:53] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. It is subjective. And I understand that and appreciate it. And, you know, it makes me feel just fine if they don't like it. So, but that was the wildest response I think that I've gotten. Most people see them and they laugh and they say sweet things. If they, if I'm there, the store oftentimes will tell me what customers have to say and it's so-- in these later years, it's usually very positive. In the younger years, I look back at my early work and I think 'uggh." So I sure get it if a customer would think that as well. But it's a learning curve, just like with anything, practice, you just keep practicing. And sometimes things just go wrong. Sometimes I glue my fingers together with super glue. You know what I mean? Like it's like, wow, I've been doing this with years for years. I can't, what did I just do? I glued my fingers together now, how do I get out of this? You know, it can be anything. And mainly for me, because I work with so many different glues , paints for so many different things. There are so many opportunities for something to go wrong along the process.
[00:32:15]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Well, and I'm curious, have you ever gotten to a point-- I think as an artist, maybe we've all gotten here at some point--but gotten to a point where you're just so frustrated and fed up with what you're trying to do, that you just like scrap it and start again?
[00:32:31]Debbie Dinneen: You know I usually can save myself, but there are some things that I do I've had to scrap because that I was trying to make like a piece to go with it, a prop, whatever. Yeah. I've scrapped a few things. Normally I can keep working on it to get it done. Sometimes I have to walk away from it for a day, and come back to it. That's rare these days. I usually just try to keep hammering through until I get what I want. But if the piece is really intense, like this recent one I did, I worked on it for a whole week longer than anticipated because I didn't, I hadn't gotten to the point I needed to yet.
[00:33:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, you've mentioned you have lots of great little tidbits of advice that have kind of been scattered throughout, but if there were somebody who was kind of just starting out and thinking about maybe wanting to pursue an artistic endeavor, what kind of advice would you have for that person?
[00:33:40] Debbie Dinneen: Never give up. It's that simple. You know, so many of us will pick up a ball of clay because we'll be, we'll get an opportunity, or we'll pick up a paint brush. If they continue on and they don't give up, they're going to end up being successful in getting to the point where they like the results.
[00:34:02]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, that's really great advice. And I absolutely agree. You know, you mentioned some of your early work, you thought, "Ooh." Well now, you know, now you think, "Oh man, I could do so much better," but every artist is like that. And so I think your advice is so spot on because, I looked back at some of the pieces that I created back in the beginning and go, "Ooh, well, I've come a long way."
[00:34:27] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then there's a middle point too. If I see a Santa that is more recent, it's like looking at the, the baby you made. It's like, "Oh, I remember that one." And you, you remember it fondly. But the real early stuff is for me is a little dubious, but you know what, it's a learning curve and we all have to start somewhere.
[00:34:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen to that. Absolutely. I actually have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests, completely subjective. Is that all right with you?
[00:35:02] Debbie Dinneen: Sure.
[00:35:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:35:11] Debbie Dinneen: Oh boy, to me, first thing that I think of is anything visual, but you know, art encompasses so much, you know, music, theater, dance. Art is everywhere. Art is when I look out my back door and I see birds on my bird feeder. We're just surrounded. That's how I feel about it.
[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I agree. Okay!
[00:35:42] Debbie Dinneen: And if you can, if you can work with it, or work with things that are around you and available to you and create more art, that's super cool to me.
[00:35:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. Well, and then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:35:59]Debbie Dinneen: Keep an open mind and try, just keep trying and try anything.  And then, teach if you can, if you have the opportunity.
[00:36:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's a great answer. I have yet to hear that. That is, that is a great answer.
[00:36:17] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah. Information share. And for the people coming behind you.
[00:36:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Perfect. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll share what I mean by that. So inclusive referring to an artist who puts his or her art out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's, you know, program notes or a title or the inspiration or something to kind of give a little bit more background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't necessarily provide any context so it's completely up to the viewer or participant to decide how they interpret it.
[00:37:06] Debbie Dinneen: In, in my particular situation, I think inclusive and which is why I put information on my cards. But every art is different and every artist is different. They have to make their own choices.
[00:37:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Perfect. Well, first of all, Debbie, thank you so very much for joining us today. I really, really appreciate it so much. And I have to say to anyone who's interested in these Santas, please, please go and check out her website because they're just stunning. And do you mind repeating what that was again?
[00:37:48] Debbie Dinneen: Not at all, Lindsey,  seasonalpeople.com. It's pretty easy.
[00:37:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And we'll provide a link as well. And I also just want to say on a personal level, of course, I have had the privilege of getting to see a lot of your work and hear the stories of the Renaissance Festival and so many things. But I have to say also thank you for incorporating art into your life and sharing that with your kids. Obviously I have personally benefited from that because Kevin grew up participating in the arts, which then he was super interested in helping to continue, participating in them with me. And so that's really special.
[00:38:32]Debbie Dinneen:  And he's very creative as well, and that, you know what, I'm grateful that we were able to pass that down and share it. It's, I'm totally grateful about that. And then we do still with our grandchildren as well.
[00:38:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and it's just one of those things that's, that is so much a part of you and your experience with art and even how you answered the question about the, the role of, of passing down, of teaching the next generation, essentially. So yeah, that's really important. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you again so much, like I said, for being here and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you'd share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:39:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:39:39]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even very small monthly donation, like $5 a month would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I've set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making our monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors, so everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day, and I'll catch you next time.

Episode 032 - Shari Augustine

In this episode, I welcome Shari Augustine! She is a professional ballet and modern dancer, competitive ballroom dancer and teacher, piano instructor, and yoga instructor. She has recently pivoted to include another art form in her repertoire, and she shares about her various artistic endeavors in this episode. 
 
Get in touch with Shari Augustine: (785) 307-2294 | shari@waltersdancecenter.com 
Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart
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Episode 32 - Shari Augustine
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.
[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experiences as so beautiful.
[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very thrilled to have as my guest today, the absolutely lovely Shari Augustine. She is a dancer, a pianist, a yoga instructor, a dance instructor, a ballroom dancer--I could go on and on and on. And most recently has been really deep diving into another area of art, which is sewing. And I'm just so excited because Shari just has such a multitude of interaction with art all the time and is very passionate about it. So thank you so much for being here, Shari.
[00:01:17] Shari Augustine: You're welcome. It's my pleasure.
[00:01:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing with us just a little bit about maybe, you know, yourself and kind of how you got started in all of this.
[00:01:31] Shari Augustine: Well, I think I've always wanted to dance. I remember growing up, the neighbor girl that I rode the bus with, she--one day a week, she didn't ride the bus because she stayed in town to take a ballet class. And I was always so envious of that. I didn't take ballet when I was growing up. My first ballet class was when I was 28 years old, so I started quite late for that type of dance, but I did square dancing and baton twirling growing up and piano playing. And of course we did 4H, so I learned about sewing and crocheting and that sort of thing. So when I became an adult, that was when I decided to try some dancing and I think my first real love of dance came when I learned how to do Country Western dancing. Of course, I don't know if I should share it, but I was 19 years old and I was going into a bar to Country Western dance. I was underage, but you know how that is back then.
[00:02:42] Lindsey Dinneen: You know.
[00:02:43]Shari Augustine: So then that led to a friend of mine was learning how to do ballroom dancing. And so we would go--I lived in Junction City, which is two hours west of Kansas City-- so once a week we would drive on Tuesday nights. We drove to Topeka because they had a dance class there that was ballroom. And so I started learning how to do ballroom dancing and then I started doing competition after I met a Pro-Am dance teacher who trained me for dance competition. And it was really because of that dancing that led me to want to move to Kansas City where I would be closer to my dance lessons because I was driving two hours to come to Kansas City from Junction City and take dance lessons and then drive two hours back home.
[00:03:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.
[00:03:42] Shari Augustine: That's kind of how that all started.
[00:03:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Talk about commitment. Oh, my word. You are amazing. I can't believe you were driving that much for that. That's awesome. So, okay. So, so many gems to unpack on all that. That was so fun. So, so you didn't take your first ballet class until you were 28? I did not know that. Wow.
[00:04:06] Shari Augustine: And I had just moved to Kansas City. I didn't know where anything was in Kansas City, except for the place that I worked and a few different dance studios and that's about it. So if you wanted to give me directions, you had to give me directions from either where I worked or from a dance studio, go this way, all the way to this or that dance studio. I decided I was going to, I had always wanted to take ballet. And so I just decided I was going to do it.
[00:04:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's awesome.
[00:04:42]Shari Augustine: It was at DanceWorks Conservatory, and so, you know, you paid a monthly fee, so you had four classes for one fee and it was an adult class, but my second class there, I couldn't make it. So I needed to do a makeup class, you know. The only available makeup class to do was with young kids. So my, my second ballet class, I was in class with a bunch of probably six year old girls. And so I think they knew a whole lot more than I did about ballet. And they just kept looking at me like, "Who are you and why are you in here?"
[00:05:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I feel like that takes a lot of bravery. I mean, just in general, whenever you start something new that's--I think for most of us, at least--that's a whole other level that you have to kind of psych yourself up to. But then--oh my gosh--but then if you're doing it with six year olds, yeah, that would, that would be challenging.
[00:05:44] Shari Augustine: Yes.
[00:05:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word. So, but you know, it's so interesting because that experience combined with, of course your background in ballroom and your background in the other art forms as well, is that you've really been able to be so well-rounded. I mean, do you think that that has helped, like having so many different genres essentially that you've, that you've worked in and dabbled in, whatever. Do you think that that's kind of impacted the way that you approach maybe even teaching or your own performing or anything like that?
[00:06:20] Shari Augustine: I think it definitely helps because, you know, certain genres will focus on certain things and then other genres focus on other things. And so you can kind of bring that together and pass it on to students. You know, all your different experiences, just giving that insight from, you know, ballet and modern, I can take things that I know from that, or even from yoga and give certain aspects of it to my ballroom or country students. So I think that definitely helps. And then the intricacies of ballroom dancing--you're moving, not just for one person, but essentially it's two people becoming one unit. And so it makes it a little bit different than other styles of dance, but it can still be beneficial today to take that style of dance information from that style of dance and apply it to other styles of dance, if that makes sense.
[00:07:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that brings a unique perspective that you can share with--well, not only for your own self, because I know you're still actively dancing yourself--but, but also for your students. I think that's really interesting. So with the ballroom dance, I know our listeners don't know, but that you are actually an active competitor. Do you have any experiences or how did you get into that in the first place? Cause it, did it start just for fun, you know, at parties or bars and then kind of morphed into a more competitive approach or, or how did that all come about?
[00:08:13] Shari Augustine: Well, I fell in love with it the first time when I started driving from Junction City to Topeka. And so I talked to my, the teacher, the instructor from that class. And she, she knew I wanted to start doing competition.  She knew I wanted to take private lessons. So she hooked me up with someone in Topeka, but then I said I wanted to compete. And so the person in Topeka wasn't registered as a Pro-Am teacher. So, the instructor of the class then said she was going to drive to Kansas City and would I like to go? And I said yes. And so that's where I met my registered Pro-Am teacher. And so I took a lesson with him and he was getting ready to compete. No, actually I competed with a person in Topeka first, just for one competition. And then I started going to coming to Kansas City. And when I met my teacher here in Kansas City, he was getting ready to do a competition and we had two two-hour private lessons. And then we went and competed, I think in something like, I don't know, 15 different dances.
[00:09:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word.
[00:09:38] Shari Augustine: Yeah. But the good thing, I mean, with me being the follower and him being the leader, I don't think that would be possible if it was the other way around because as a follower, of course there are following skills that you have to acquire, but as a follower, you don't have to think of what steps you're going to be leading. You know what I mean?
[00:10:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Basically like you don't have to on the spot come up with, "Okay, now we're going to do this turn. Now we're going to do this."
[00:10:12] Shari Augustine: Yeah. You don't have to plan as to what you're doing. And of course he already had routines ready. And so it was really just making sure that I could follow everything that he was doing. And so we went and competed and had a good time.
[00:10:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is an incredible story. You, you are so brave. I think I would have been like, "Ha yeah, no, no, thanks." Oh my gosh.
[00:10:42] Shari Augustine: Yeah, a lot of pre-competition jitters.
[00:10:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, no kidding. So okay. For those of us who aren't involved in that world, and that includes myself, can you tell us a little bit about the difference you had mentioned a couple of times of, you know, Pro-Am and I'm not familiar with that term versus having someone who's just an instructor. Do you mind just sharing a little bit about that?
[00:11:06] Shari Augustine: So an instructor is considered a pro you know, if they are making money on it and it's their livelihood. They are considered a pro. And so whoever they teach, whatever student they teach who doesn't have the livelihood of dance as a way to make a living, then they are considered to be amateur. And so you match up the instructor with the student. And if the, if the professional is a registered professional with NDCA,  you have to be registered with them either as a Pro-Am teacher--and currently they're requiring amateurs to be registered-- but you can also be registered as an adjudicator, as a professional dancer who dances with another professional dancer, so there's several different categories that you can be registered for. And so he, at the time was registered as a Pro-Am teacher. He was also registered to dance with his professional partner, which at the time was his wife. So that's why we were able to compete together versus the other gentlemen in, in Topeka wasn't able to.
[00:12:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay. Interesting. Well, that, that makes sense. They're trying to keep everything kind of regulated to an extent, I guess, so. Awesome. So then you also are a yoga instructor. So when did your interest in yoga start emerging?
[00:12:47]Shari Augustine: Well, when I was, I went to KU for my dance degree, and it was not long after that I think I started kind of looking at yoga. And I remember thinking how, how boring it was. You know, it was so slow moving, whereas dancing a KU, everything is on the go, on the go. So other forms of dance, everything is constantly moving. You're not thinking about breathing. I mean, sometimes you do, but not as much as in yoga, you just hold everything. And of course, then I learned there's different styles of yoga and there's a whole lot of different layers of yoga. But I started thinking about it. I think I was certified in, I want to say 2013, so that would have been 10 years after I finished my degree in dance at KU. But I just, you know, it was looking for other avenues of income and to be able to still use movement in the body and to be able to share that with other people.
[00:14:07]And so I, I just decided, "Okay, I'm going to go get certified in yoga," having not really ever taken a yoga class. Oh, I, once I signed up to do the 200 hour certification, I found this place in Olathe called Darling Yoga. And it's two sisters that have a yoga studio, very good yoga studio. They had an introductory rate of $20 for two weeks unlimited yoga. And so I said, "I'll take it." So I went there and I decided I was going to really make it worth my money. That two weeks and spending $20, I decided I was going to take 20 yoga classes.
[00:15:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.
[00:15:02] Shari Augustine: I spent 27 hours doing yoga in two weeks. Wow. Let me tell you, it was a lot harder than what I had originally thought. So that was sort of my introduction to yoga.
[00:15:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. Wow. That's incredible. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Well, well you did dive right in there. Awesome. So, okay. Oh my goodness. And then you're also a pianist and a piano teacher. And you said if I'm not mistaken that you, you'd been doing that for since childhood.
[00:15:43] Shari Augustine: I started playing the piano when I was five. And so I just took lessons. I was kind of picking around on the piano and, you know, we'd come home from church and I would just go downstairs to the piano and start playing the songs that I had heard in church. And so my parents thought it would be a good idea to do piano lessons. Yeah, so they started me learning how to play the piano at five. And I was very, very shy growing up. And I remember telling my mom after a couple of years of piano, that I didn't really like it and I didn't want to continue. And so my mother, a very smart woman, said--she used my shyness against me--she said, "Okay, if you want to quit, then you'll have to tell your teacher."
[00:16:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh.
[00:16:40] Shari Augustine: And I never could get over my shyness and tell my teacher that I wanted to quit. So I continued on.
[00:16:49] Lindsey Dinneen: That was very clever. Oh my goodness. Well, and probably now, you know, having those skills is so valuable and being able to teach them to others. So I, I guess it all worked out in the end.
[00:17:04] Shari Augustine: It did all work out in the end.  I feel like, you know, there are people that just have music in them and other people that it's really hard to get an understanding because it just isn't, you know, where their gifts lie. They have, everyone's so different and people shine in one area, maybe not in an other area. And I, I feel like that's one of the gifts that I was given is feeling and understanding music and it sort of comes relatively easy for me by comparison, you know, watching other people in their growth and struggles in it. So I feel like it's kind of a gift that was given to me.
[00:17:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think so, too. I think your understanding of music has probably allowed you to thrive in such a wide variety of styles of dance too, because it is so different counting a waltz than a, I dunno, swing, than something else. And those are just two examples, but I'm just thinking, you know, your ability to, to connect with music has probably really helped all the forms of dance that you we've embarked on.
[00:18:23] Shari Augustine: Yes, definitely.
[00:18:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So one really fun, random fact that I happen to know about Shari is that she participates in this challenge. Is it like twice a year? You'll have to chime in here in a minute, but she does this amazing challenge, where--is it The Worldwide Splitters? Did I get that right?
[00:18:47] Shari Augustine: Yes, it's the Worldwide Splitters Network and I don't even know who put me into this group on Facebook. I mean, I don't even know who to thank for putting me into it. Suddenly I was in this group and I was, I looked at it and I thought, what in the heck is this? This lady from Australia is the founder of it and she's in her seventies. And she has spent her life as a contortionist. Well, she still does performances as a contortionist, as far as I know, she still does it.
[00:19:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.
[00:19:27] Shari Augustine: But she founded this group and there are two 60 day challenges every year. And since the start of it, she's broken it up between the adult group and the youth group. But she gives really good advice as far as alignment. She's very good about encouraging you. So I've learned a lot from being in this group and I feel like I've had a lot of growth and a lot of things that I can pass on to other people who are interested in flexibility. They will also have, besides the two 60 day challenges, they also have many challenges in between if you're not quite ready to go the full 60 days doing splits every day. So they have a 30 day back flexibility challenge and a 30 day mini splits challenge. So for the splits, you do your stretching and splitting five days a week with two rest days. For the back flexibility challenge, they do three or four days a week for stretching and warming up your back and then doing the poses that are required.
[00:20:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.
[00:20:44] Shari Augustine: And then you have to post the required pictures in an album on this Facebook page.  Only dedicated splitters.
[00:20:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. That's amazing.
[00:20:58] Shari Augustine: So I ended up with two of the gold, what's it called now? I can't even think--Gold Standard Award winners. So the first time I was notified that I was, I was in the top 10, a couple of years ago and I ended up placing sixth .And then I think it was last year or the year before, I was contacted by this lady in Australia that started it. And she was saying a few things and kind of leading up to I was in the top three and then pretty soon she said a few more things and pretty soon she broke the news to me that we have chosen you as the Gold Standard Award winner.
[00:21:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.
[00:21:46] Shari Augustine: And I just totally was, I was just amazed because there are so many really amazing splitters on the page.
[00:21:56] Lindsey Dinneen: How exciting. Well, congratulations.
[00:22:00] Shari Augustine: Thank you.
[00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah.  So I know, you know, this year has been a challenge, to put it mildly for many, many people, but artists, especially I think have really had to either pause or pivot or any number of things. And so, how has this kind of impacted you, and then maybe what other kinds of exciting things, you know, has emerged?
[00:22:28] Shari Augustine: Well, because everything I do is face to face and not really something that I prefer to do on, you know, online, I did not know what I was going to do. And when I first heard about the lockdown, I called up my dad, who by the way, is, was a round dancer. He and his wife were known across the country as round dance instructors. And, so they had, you know, a place in their basement where they would do dancing and, but I called him up and I said, "I have no idea what I'm going to do." And I just started crying because I didn't know any other time--if, if I'm low on cash, if I need to make more money, I just work harder. And that's how you do things. You just, you find something else to do. You figure out a way to make more money, to be able to, you know, take care of your financial responsibilities.
[00:23:38]And because we're in a position where we definitely need to have an income. My husband had a stroke four years ago. And so he wasn't working for a couple of years. And so it put us kind of in a bad place financially. And I was trying to make ends meet and keep on doing things and keep on doing things. He's back to work part time, but that's really after having that hardship, we're just not in a place financially to, to be able to just stay home. No, I was talking to my dad on the phone and I just started crying. I don't know what I'm going to do. I have no idea. I'm at a loss. Any other time, if I need something, I just work harder. I go find a job. Everything I do is face to face.
[00:24:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.
[00:24:31] Shari Augustine: And so I just kind of took a deep breath in, and okay. This is okay. I'm going to clean my house. I'm going to exercise. I'm going to walk every day. I'm getting outside. This is okay. Well then, you know, the mask mandate was starting to come into being, and I thought, "Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find a good mask pattern and make a couple of masks and send it to my daughters." My youngest daughter is now a nurse. She was going to nursing school. And so I made a couple of masks for her, and I made a couple of masks for my daughter in Colorado and my sister who was in Topeka. And so I posted pictures of these masks on Facebook. And before I knew it, I was just swamped with orders for masks. And so I just started. I became a full-time mask maker for, you know, a month and a half. So I was sitting at the sewing machine every single day, just trying to keep up on my mask orders and I would send them, you know, I sent some to Florida. I sent some to the East Coast. I sent some to the West Coast. I assume some, you know, up North, I sent them all over the place, as well as people here in Kansas City.
[00:25:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's incredible. Are you still doing that or is it kind of slowed down a little bit or how has that all worked out?
[00:26:04] Shari Augustine: It has slowed down a lot. I've had a few people, because they know that this is going to go on for a little while. I had a lady that bought some Christmas fabric and she said, "Well, I'm going to need some masks that go with the Christmas holiday. Will you make some, if I send you the fabric?" And yes, of course, but, I have one order right now, but I haven't made masks for awhile. So it's kind of, it was high demand for a while and now it's just kind of here and there.
[00:26:40] Lindsey Dinneen: So. Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:26:43] Shari Augustine: If anyone wants to, you know, have masks made, I'm happy to do it, but it's no longer full-time.
[00:26:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Well, yeah, like she said before the recording started as a sort of like get up in the morning, sit at your sewing machine all day. Go to bed. Do it again. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness.
[00:27:05] Shari Augustine: I was very grateful for the work, you know, the good Lords always provides and, and I'm always amazed at what He sends my way. So.
[00:27:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, indeed.
[00:27:18] Shari Augustine: Definitely a blessing.
[00:27:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all those stories. That is so fun. I loved hearing about all the different things that, you know, you're a part of and how that came about. And that's just really, really cool. So, I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if that's okay with you.
[00:27:42] Shari Augustine: Okay.
[00:27:43] Lindsey Dinneen: So the first question is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:27:50]Shari Augustine: I think it's different for every person. It's a way of using your creativity to allow your feelings to be put out there without--sometimes you can't say what your feelings are. And so it's a way of allowing your feelings to come out for you. Yeah, or it, it can be putting a message out and everyone might take that message in differently, because we all look at art differently and that's okay.
[00:28:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect.
[00:28:32] Shari Augustine: And that's the thing about artists that it is different for everyone from the artist to the person who is looking at the art and that's okay.
[00:28:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And so what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:28:53]Shari Augustine: I don't know generally speaking, but for me, I enjoy sharing things with people to hopefully make an impact on them or make a difference in their lives.
[00:29:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:11] Shari Augustine: You know, one way or the other, whether it is looking at things from a different perspective or just appreciating the beauty, feeling the music or feeling the movement. When I was doing, I did the liturgical dancing for a while and when I did that--liturgical dancing is dancing in church--and it was always my prayer that the spirit moving in me would move the spirit in the person who was watching. So that's kind of, I like to have an impact on people by sharing my art.
[00:29:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. That's beautiful. And then my final question, and I'll kind of define my terms a little, a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts his work out there, and provides some context behind that, whether that's, you know, something as simple as a title that kind of describes it, or whether that's a series of program notes, or a backstory or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their art out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So then it's kind of solely up to the viewer to decide what's going on.
[00:30:39]Shari Augustine: Personally as a viewer--well, and as an artist too-- I think there's value on both sides. But as a viewer, I would prefer to have the backstory and whether or not my take on the art is still the same as the person who has created the art--it may or may not be--but I just like to have that background for my own understanding. And to, to try to see more clearly where the artist is coming from. But on the other hand, you might look at a piece that's out there and if you have no context, then it can either say something to you or it might not say something to you. But it may or may not be the same as the intended, you know, voice of the artist.
[00:31:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly.
[00:31:45] Shari Augustine: Yeah, I think it's really preference.
[00:31:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup. Yeah. Well, and I like asking these questions because it is subjective and the answers are subjective too, because it's art, which is so fun. That's so special about it. So.
[00:32:03] Shari Augustine: So my piano student that I had today, we were talking about artistic liberty. And so I said, when you are, because there was a correction I made for him and he's an older gentleman, I made the correction and he kind of halfway joked that it was his artistic liberty. And I said, "Well, since we are at piano lessons, we're not going to have artistic liberty. We're going to do what the music says as a learning tool, but when you are in front of an audience and you are entertaining an audience, you can have all the artistic liberty that you would like to have."
[00:32:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I like that a lot. I love that perspective. Yeah, because you have to start with the technique. I often tell my students the same, very similar kind of thing is, let's start with the, all the technique that you, you need to know and let's learn artistry basics. And then when you get to a certain level, that's when it becomes super fun, when you can make it your own, but you have to have that base first layers to it. You know, you, you learn this part of it and then you learn this part of it and you just keep on stacking it on top. And then at the end, once you have solidified all the lower layers, then you can make it your own and really put the emotion into it.
[00:33:36] Shari Augustine: I have another couple of students who they're working on the Rumba, and every week when I work with them, they keep saying to me, "I want to do it perfectly." And I said, "There is no such thing as perfect." That's the beauty of art is that there is never perfection with me, or if anybody else agrees with me, but that's just what I say is that there isn't perfection, but there is beauty in the imperfection.
[00:34:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, I love that. Yes. So on board, no, I agree with you. There's-- you will never be able to achieve a level of perfection and, exactly like you said, but there is so much beauty in the imperfection, so it makes us human. That's what makes us relate to each other. So love it. Oh, that was very insightful. Thank you. Well, if any of our listeners are interested in connecting with you, either for lessons or masks or whatever, is there a way for them to do that?
[00:34:39]Shari Augustine: Yes. So we were talking about the, the Pro-Am information from before and so at that time, I was the amateur side of the program, but now I'm the professional side of the Pro-Am and I am registered with NDCA. I take students to competition for both country western partner dancing, ballroom partner dancing, and most recently I have a couple of titles for competition line dancing. So I do all sorts of training for, you know, the partner dancing, the line dancing, and so any of that is available. If you are interested in contacting me, you can call or text at (785) 307-2294. Or I have an email address shari@waltersdancecenter.com. And so I do mostly private lessons, or sometimes people have hired me for workshops or classes that's outside of the studio.
[00:35:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Yes. And for anyone listening, who is interested in those kinds of lessons, Shari is awesome. She is definitely your gal to learn from the best, but also learn from somebody who's just such a nice, encouraging person. You will definitely feel validated and, you know. Basically, if you have nerves about trying anything, whether that's piano or ballroom or ballet or yoga, she would be the person to go to, and Shari, so thank you again so very much for being on today's episode. I really, really appreciate it. And I just want you to know that, I, again, I have the privilege of having, you know, watched a little bit of your journey, worked a little bit with you, and I just know that you do make an impact on people's lives and you do add so much beauty to the world through your art. And so I just want to say thank you for that. And thank you for being on this episode. I really appreciate it.
[00:36:55] Shari Augustine: Thank you very much. It was my pleasure.
[00:36:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. And thank you so much to all of our listeners who've listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:37:15]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
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Episode 031 - Tessa Priem

In this episode, I welcome Tessa Priem! Tessa is a solo dance artist and the creator of "Inner Reformation: An Autobiography Danced." She shares about her journey from a massive health crisis to healing and redemption, and the way that the arts helped her navigate it all. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is of Tessa and is her show's promotional photo!)
 
Get in touch with Tessa Priem: https://www.innerreformation.org/ | https://www.facebook.com/innerreformation | https://www.instagram.com/innerreformation/ | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYoSv7-yyBnOc1C9j2sJ-NA 
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Episode 31 - Tessa Priem
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.
[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, the lovely Tessa Priem. She is a solo dance artist, and we had the privilege of meeting at the Kansas City Fringe Festival several years ago. But thank you so much for being here.
[00:00:53] Tessa Priem: Thank you, Lindsey. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course I would love if you don't mind sharing just a little bit about who you are and maybe your background in dance and sort of the arts and, and go from there.
[00:01:09] Tessa Priem: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I'm not really known. I frequently say I'm a big, fat nobody. So I live near Kansas City. And in fact, I've lived near Kansas City for just over a decade. Lindsey, so you and I met at the Fringe Festival in 2018, in the summer of 2018. And so by that time I lived near Kansas City for eight years. But when we met, that was literally the first like, I believe maybe it was in 2017 that I started stepping out into the artists' community in Kansas City. So it took me a long time to even start connecting with artists, even though I live so close to such a, an amazing city that supports the arts so well. So as you highlighted, we, you and I, met at the Kansas City Fringe Festival. And, to give a bit of my background, I grew up studying dance. I wouldn't say my training as a child was necessarily super by any means at all. But I had this great love for it. I loved to perform, and performing for an audience is probably one of my most favorite things to do as a kid and as a youth, especially in high school.
[00:02:46] So I went on and I studied modern dance in college. And then I danced with a small company in St. Louis for about five years. And then I went on a long hiatus from performing probably about nine years, maybe just a little over nine years. And, in that time I moved to Kansas City and I experienced a health collapse. I experienced a physical health collapse, but before that I experienced a mental, I experienced severe depression. So I just had a lot of things in life that, that went pretty terribly for a number of years. And I stopped dancing altogether in that time. So, my answer is already getting quite long. There's so much more I could share, but kind of to wrap it up, Lindsey is that throughout my health collapse, during my health collapse, it began in the year 2012. I thought I was dying and I'm a mother of three children. So it was very, very devastating to me, the thought of potentially leaving my children behind.
[00:04:00] So what happened was, I really wanted to share my life story with my children in the event of me dying. And so in 2016, which before that, I had tried writing out my life story and every attempt failed. I, it just was not working. So I'm kind of, in a sorta miraculous way, I was just standing in my kitchen one day and the idea hit me that I could dance out my life story. So, I had never seen a solo dance show before in my entire life, Lindsey, cause you know, I mean most dance that we see is done in companies or you usually dance with other dancers, you know, or, or at least another partner. To see a solo dance artist was completely out of my realm of experience. So just standing in my kitchen, my struggle with figuring out how can I tell my life story to my children, the writing isn't going well, that idea literally just hit me. "You can dance out your life story." And so, that's what I started October 31st, 2016. And it took almost a full two years to get the dance together.
[00:05:27] And it debuted July, 2018 at the Kansas City Fringe Festival, and that's when I met you, Lindsey. And so, so my solo show debuted at that time, my life story danced out. It's called "Inner Reformation: an Autobiography Danced." And, after the Fringe Festival, I had to decide what to do: to either quit that solo performance or to say, "I'm going to make this my life's ambition." And it was really scary to kind of make that decision, but I ended up deciding this is going to be my life's work. And so, so now I'm four years into the journey and it's a journey that certainly has its ups and downs, but I continue to build on, I continue to work on that show, absolutely. But I also am working on other artistic projects as well. And so I'm still a solo dance artist just traveling by myself. But I have people along the way that support me. You know, us doing this interview is an example of that.
[00:06:33]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, so I am particularly interested in your autobiography danced, "Inner Reformation" and sort of your creative process and the, how that all came to be because, you know, undertaking a full length show, like you said, as a company is a task enough, but as a solo artist, I mean it magnifies and just even building up your stamina and all those kinds of things. So can you just share about all that process?
[00:07:08]Tessa Priem: Yes, I mean, I could talk for hours about this. Yes. So the way I formatted the solo show, directed those two, almost two years, in me creating the autobiography dance. And that was that I, at the very beginning, I set a goal and that was that well, first of all, let me back up just a little bit. When I had that idea in my kitchen to dance out my life story, there had been a CD that I had been listening to. I've been teaching a dance class. It was my first dance class that I had taught in years, because again, I had gone on a really lengthy hiatus from dancing. And in that time I'd had children and again had experienced severe depression, had experienced a complete health collapse. So as I was standing in my kitchen, literally my body was still quite weak from my health collapse. So just the idea of even doing a solo show--you spoke of the stamina required for solo show-- I had very, my strength at that time was not, I was pretty weak still. So anyway, even so, I had the CD in mind again, because I, I, for the first time was teaching this class and I used this particular CD in this class.
[00:08:31] And so as I was standing in my kitchen and, and that idea hit me, I turned on that CD, Lindsey, and every single song-- there were 12 tracks on that song, on that CD--and every single song, Lindsey. I knew it, it was like automatic. I knew what part of it, my life, that song, my life fit to that CD, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And unlike trying to write the book for my children and it being entirely unsuccessful, it was automatic that when I listened to the CD, it was just all clear. And that's why I kind of call it miraculous. It's just, it was so effortless and so surprising just out of the blue, right? So, so after I had that sort of clear picture, if you will, of what every song was going to be about and how it applied to that particular period in my life, for that particular event in my life. I, and knowing that the CD itself had 12 tracks, I decided that I would create one dance per month for one year. And then the second year I would start perfecting. Well, no, no, wait, sorry. I super underestimated things. I thought that by the second year I would be able to perform it, but that proved absolutely ridiculous because working cause it ended up being a 57 minute show.
[00:10:12] So to create one dance per month for 12 months, and keep in mind, I hadn't danced for years and keep in mind, I had just come from a terrible health collapse that left me often unable to walk. I was so weak at certain times that my husband had to carry me. It was, yeah, so, so I was kind of just starting over, in terms of moving my body once again. So creating one dance per month, it was very silly of me to even think that the whole dance would be perfected by that second year. And I could just spend the whole year showing that dance. So what ended up happening was I ended up spending almost all of the second year perfecting the dance. And then finally, by the time that Fringe came around, the dance was just barely ready for me to show is quite a crunch because I was still building up that stamina to be able to perform for nearly an hour. So, that was, I guess, kind of the process, Lindsey, have one dance per month and then with the goal of showing it in the second year, and by, by complete mercy, I was able to show it at the Fringe Festival in the second year.
[00:11:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. And it's also, I love that you were so deliberate about breaking down your process. I think that for a lot of us, when we kind of maybe look at a, a high level goal like that, you know, it, it can feel overwhelming unless you do break it down into manageable chunks. So that, that's great. I love the way that you processed through that.
[00:12:03] Tessa Priem: Yeah. And I think what helped with that was that the fact that there were 12 songs on the CD. But again, those songs just coincided with the chapters of my life, if you will. It's even funny, Lindsey, that the, even the titles of the songs, it's almost like it was written for my, it's for my life story. It's, it's bizarre, because even the titles of the songs themselves literally apply to what the dance is about. So it's what each dance is about. So  another little thing that I consider just kind of strange and, and nearly kind of, I don't know, I don't know if using the word miraculous is that or not, but that's the only word I can think of, you know? So, or maybe providential or something like that. So, I think again, that's, that's part of what guided me certainly is the fact that it had 12, 12 songs and that helped me set one dance per month. So it was kind of laid out for me nice and neat. I didn't have to think too hard about it.
[00:13:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love that. And so I'm just curious, what surprised you the most along the road, either throughout the process or audience reactions or what stood out to you the most?
[00:13:26] Tessa Priem: Hmm. Oh, one thing when I began the project, I had so much doubt. My self-confidence, if you will, was so extremely low, Lindsey, I didn't think anyone would want to watch me. I thought I would be boring. It's just, it's just mind boggling to me of, of where my mind kind of was at that time, thinking that I had almost nothing to offer to a crowd, to an audience, right? And so that was a long process. Another, I guess, surprising thing was that I dealt with a good bit of injury while creating it, literally. And so, and this was, this was quite challenging because I only had a month to complete each dance, right? So, so literally Lindsey, by the time, like nearing my 11th and 12th months, I was literally crawling on the floor cause I had injured my ankle and it was unbelievable. I'm serious. I was crawling on the floor and so a lot of the dance had to be, I had to end up, as I perfected it in the second year, I had to change a decent bit of the choreography to especially get me on the floor because I had messed up my ankle so badly because my ankle wasn't used to dancing as, cause I was dancing on it daily. And so it was just such a quick transition for my body to go from not dancing and to have gone through as complete health collapse.
[00:15:04] And by the way, I had lost probably about 20% of my body mass in that time. So I had lost so much muscle tone and so on. So it, it, it was, it was hard on my body, but here, let, let me say something that was so surprising, Lindsey, that countered all of this doubt, self doubt along the way. And that countered my injury was creating the solo show was the most joyous thing I had done for 12 years in my life. I had had a really horrible stretch of 12 years. And so this solo show was the first year that I had genuine happiness and joy. And so any burden that I had, almost felt so insignificant, if it can't by comparison, because the joy was just so fulfilling and uplifting, and I needed that so badly in life, I needed that so badly.
[00:16:07]Another thing that was surprising is, because this was such a big goal of creating a solo show, creating all 12 dances in 12 months, you know, and having never seen a single solo show in my life. So I didn't know what I was doing. And furthermore, I am not one to open up easily to people about certain events of my life. So the fact that I was even making a solo show about my life story and was even considering opening that up to my own family, let alone the public, was like insanity to me, right? So, there were so many times along this journey throughout these two years where it really seemed that the solo show might not come together because my ankle was too messed up.
[00:16:52] Or, there was a particular event when I was six months in this solo show, I ended up having sort of a screening of it. And I invited about 40 people to come and I was halfway through building the dance. So I had six dances done and they were going to come, about 40 people, and they were going to watch me dance because I wanted their feedback to know, "Is this just a stupid project?" I wanted to know, "Are people going to be bored with me? Are people going to boo me off the stage?" You know?  It ended up where we ended up doing the showing in the basement of my home. And so, because we couldn't fit about 40 people into my basement, we had to break it up into two showings. And so about 20 people came to the first showing. So, and then I did these two showings back-to-back, where about 20 people came to the first showing and then the next set of people came in.
[00:17:46] And just to give you a clue, Lindsey, about how weak I was at that time. So I only did about 30 minutes of the dance at that time. I was so weak after the first showing that I literally laid on the floor of my basement. Well, the next set of people came in and I had to direct a few of the men who came to set up my set for me, because as the show progressed, my props change location. But, I had even more props early on in the creation of my show, like a lot more props than what you saw at Fringe. But anyway, I was so weak at this time, at six months into the creation of the solution that I had to lay on the floor and build up strength while I directed these men to put my props in place. And I had no idea if I would be able to build up the strength to perform this the second time for the second show, but here's a great surprise. What happened at the showing was incredible. The people supported me. They were just kind of blown away. And it affirmed for me that I should keep going and creating the solo show that I shouldn't stop, that I should keep going. And so I did. And so those are, I guess, just some of the surprises along the way. 
[00:19:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And how encouraging too, because I know all artists at, I think I can only imagine at all levels, so to speak, have those moments of even if initially, you know, you're really passionate and you think definitely this is a good concept, until you have some feedback, you still, it takes so much bravery and courage to put yourself out there and put your creation out there and hope. So that's so great that you had people, you know, to help you along the way and say, yes, this concept is important and yes, you should be doing this. Well, and, so since you debuted it at the Fringe Festival, my understanding is that you've gotten to do some additional work. Have you gotten to perform that particular one again?
[00:19:59] Tessa Priem: I did. I performed the full solo show at a small university in Minnesota. I was supposed to perform it at least in two other locations, but I ended up having to have major abdominal surgery. So both of those shows had to be canceled. But you know, kind of like you and I were talking before we started recording this conversation, Lindsey, the timing of things in life can sometimes be such a gift, because those shows being canceled and me being completely out of commission, totally unable to move, because dancers, I mean, perhaps most of the listeners who listen to your podcast know that dancers or, or anybody who moves their body, you move from the core of your body. So what was cut open? It was my core. My abdomen was completely sliced open.
[00:20:56] So, so that sent me to the couch and I had to think of what was next. What was I supposed to do? And so that kind of started me on some new things in my art, in some new directions. So, basically from having major, major abdominal surgery, it sort of became clear to me that it was time to start writing my autobiography. So in October, 2019, October 31st, 2019, three years after I started creating my solo dance show, I determined that I was going to set a five-year project to write out my life story. So, I just reached my first year of that anniversary. So I have four more years to go Lord-willing. So I am currently writing my autobiography to be kind of a companion to my solo dance.
[00:22:01]So, I guess that's part of the fruit of getting my abdomen worked on in surgery is that it, it rerouted my sort of plans and my, my focus, as well as, this is funny, Lindsey, but, you know, before COVID, no dance performances were being live-streamed. Online dance performances have always been largely done in public, right? We make our performances in public and if anything, we record it and then afterwards you can watch your recording, right? So, while I was recovering from that surgery, it's kind of like standing in my kitchen, you know, and the idea hit me that I could dance out my life story, and it kind of, similar way I thought, because I'm a mom so I know that I, it's not very feasible for me to travel around like most companies do or like most solo artists do they travel around and they perform their shows. And I knew that's not something I can can do in my situation as, as a parent. And as a parent, I homeschool my children, so I just knew that wasn't feasible.
[00:23:27] So I had to think of, "Well, what can I do? What can I do?" And so I thought, literally, Lindsey, I've been working on this for probably 10 months. If not close to a year, I had been working to make my solo show live through. And I was keeping it a secret. I was keeping it a secret because I thought everybody's going to beat me to the punch. And now I think what I learned is anytime I have an idea, there's just really no reason for me to keep it secret because it's just, it's just silly to keep a great idea to yourself, I suppose. But anyway, so what happened literally overnight? It was March 13th this year, 2020. Overnight, the digital dance world was born, Lindsey, and I saw it happen online.  The whole dance community has entirely changed and everybody has shifted to online and online performances. So, so at that point there was no need for me to keep anything secret anymore that I was trying to build a live stream solo show.
[00:24:25] So, so that was, that was kind of just a funny thing. And, the world was sort of ripe for things to go digital because we have these digital devices and it is totally possible to live stream things. And so that's, I think kind of an interesting and neat thing about COVID, but it doesn't  replace meeting in public and being able to be together. That's for sure. But to move on from the solo show and from writing the autobiography, the other thing that I actually stumbled into is, last August, 2019, I was preparing for a gig. I was going to be performing at Johnson County Public Library in Kansas City.  The event coordinator, his name is Joseph, he saw my solo show at the, at the Kansas City Fringe Festival. And, the library was going to be doing a theme throughout the year regarding mental health. And of course my solo show deals a lot with mental health and so he asked me to come there. So what happened is I was rehearsing for this gig to perform at the Johnson County Public Library, and lo and behold, I ended up in a park on a beautiful sunny day and I recorded myself dancing outside ,Lindsey. And when I got home, I was blown away by what I saw. Because I saw how absolutely gorgeous it was to dance outside in the wind and in the sunshine, and to see these big fluffy white clouds in the sky and to see like soaring hawks in the air as I was dancing.
[00:26:05] And so my jaw just dropped open when I got home and looked at the footage. So I started a new goal. I started a goal that I would dance outside once per month and would capture the footage. And I did that for an entire year So that's what I did. And then I finished that July, 2020. So half of the filming that I did was filmed during the time of COVID actually, which worked out pretty well because I was just dancing in open spaces,  So I was just going to public places, and I didn't have to worry about running into people too much or anything like that. And, and so it just worked out quite well. I was able to film all 12 months and I filmed on my humble computer camera because that's the only resource that I had at the time. So computer cameras, as we know, aren't that great with capturing video because it's just this tiny, tiny lens that's letting in light. But what happened, Lindsey, was when I went outside into the natural light, somehow this tiny little lens that light poured through, and it was able to capture my dancing in such an unbelievable way.
[00:27:22] So then I was able to take screenshots from those from the footage of me dancing outside. And I ended up creating three slide shows that run for seven hours each and they have royalty-free music built into them. And so this is my very first product that I'm launching by Inner Reformation. And I just recently launched this. And so it's very new territory for me. And I'm so delighted about it and so excited about it. So those are kind of the things that I'm doing right now. I'm still working on my solo show. I'm writing my autobiography.  And then, I'm working on these outdoor slide shows, so I'm kind of all over the place, but that's what I'm doing. Lots of different art projects.
[00:28:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's great. Well, and congratulations on this new project and endeavor. That is so exciting.  Thank you so much for sharing your story and your process and, and just everything, you know, that's made art so impactful for you personally, and how it's really made a difference in your life and, and through you, I'm sure to the lives of other people. So you know that, like you said, you're a pretty private person. So being brave and vulnerable is a big deal. And so thank you for doing that because that's going to impact other people's lives for sure. Well, and I do have a couple of questions that I like to ask all of my guests, if you're up for that. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:29:05] Tessa Priem: Yeah, so I had listened to some of your podcasts right before doing this with you. And so I figured that you would probably ask me this question. And knowing that you were going to ask me, you would think that I would have thought how I would answer you. But what it made me think of is that I actually did a presentation that had a lot to do with what is art. And I ended up looking up the various definitions and like, the Oxford dictionary and Miriam Webster. But one thing that really sticks out to me from what I learned just about sort of the definition is, well, first of all, let me back up just a little bit throughout history. This has been debated and continues to be debated. It's such a interesting question because people always have different answers. So I think even the Greek philosophers from long ago, like really examine this question, what is art? So anyway, from the dictionaries, I thought it was so interesting how they really emphasize that the aspect of skill. So developing a skill. And I, I'm not going to go into, you know, your level of that skill or something, but, but you know, whether it be drawing or whether it be dance or whether it be music of some sort, right? So you have this certain skill or craft that you work on and you end up making something in that skill or craft and that what you make expresses something, right. There's some sort. Of purpose behind that making. And then furthermore, beyond that sort of purpose, whatever it might be, that can be so varied.
[00:30:56] It's so varied for each artist, but from that purpose of whatever you've made, usually after that, that work, that creation is often shared with others, usually. Not always, not always, but it's often shared. So those were just some aspects that I thought were really interesting about what is art, you know, it's kind of, it's this skill or craft that people have that people work on and they pour themselves into it and they make whatever it is that they, that they need to create. And often then they share that work. Not always, but, but frequently that's what happens. And then what happens from that is that the audience in some way responds. And so, I guess that's kind of, maybe that's art, it's, it's making something. And then you go on to either just keep it to yourself, which is special, or you go on to, to share that with others to potentially impact others in some kind of way. But it's definitely something that you make to definitely something that you make.
[00:32:09]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:32:17]Tessa Priem:  So I knew you were going to ask that too. When I first heard you ask this question on the first podcast that I listened to, one of my thoughts was honesty. Just honesty, honestly relating whatever it is that you're trying to create. I suppose I've also heard that art shows us what it means to be human. I mean, but that, well, I guess that kind of goes back to your former question. But, I think, for me personally, as an artist, like it's my big goal to be real and honest with people as I possibly can. I don't want to lie or hide because as you mentioned, it is very scary to reveal what you've made. It's very scary to reveal yourself. So in that it does require a good bit of bravery. And so I guess for me, I really just try to work on being real and honest, but I also want to be like lighthearted and silly at times too, because I can be a little bit serious sometimes. So that bringing that joy and fun, and I listened to your podcast, Lindsey, and I know that's what you've wanted to bring to people through your company, like the sense of joy and happiness and people's lives. So.
[00:33:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to somebody who kind of invites you into the context behind it, whether that's a title or program notes, or a Q&A, versus exclusive where the artists share something, but doesn't put context behind it. So it's completely up to the audience to interpret.
[00:34:17] Tessa Priem: So let me give you a little bit of a backup story. When I was an undergrad learning modern dance, being exclusive was kind of like the go-to the way that we were taught. And so the more vague or abstract your dance piece, the better. And this was just all kind of across the board, like anywhere we traveled to perform or anything like that, just kind of the overall education. And the modern dance community seemed to-- I think the way I felt at least--was that we were entirely discouraged from being at all inclusive. So for example, the stranger your title was, the better. The more confounded you could leave your audience, the better. Well, that really bothered me personally, Lindsey, I just could not connect with that. I just really deeply could not connect with that. And in fact, I ended up hating dance--- I mean, that's why I went on a hiatus. Part of why I went on a hiatus for so long, for almost a decade, it was because I ended up hating dance and dance performance because I didn't like how the audience was sort of treated and it just didn't resonate with me.
[00:35:31] So, so I knew that at the creation of my solo show, that I wanted to make my dance understandable. So, so I, for example, I wanted to, to give in the program, I wanted to give them a description of what they were seeing. You know, not to feed everything to them on a spoon, but I wanted them to at least get a generalization or an idea so that they weren't walking away, scratching their head going, "What in the world just happened?" Because like, you know, you and I were talking before this, this recording, you had said how you experienced a lot of people who had gone to see a show or looked at some sort of art and your experience with people is that they just didn't understand what they were seeing. Well, that was so much my experience in my undergraduate degree. And, and even after undergrad, people would come to my show and they would be like, we just, we don't even know what we saw. And I felt so badly about that. So I knew I wanted to build my solo show completely different from that. Here's part of the beauty though, Lindsey, that in that almost nine years of a hiatus, or almost a decade of hiatus, when I came back, guess what's happening in dance right now that I just was blown away to see? Stories are being told in modern dance. So I just, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that they were even telling actual stories for people to understand. And so I think there has been a great shift in dance performance. 
[00:37:05] So what I guess then to wrap up this answer is I guess what it's led me to believe is that both are good. Yes. If you can at least let your audience know, for example, "We're we're trying to be more abstract here." I think it's my biggest concern is when you just don't let the audience know anything, right? So if you, if there's a really abstract piece, if at least they could know, okay, it's abstract and they could kind of like let down their guard and say, "Okay, this is abstract. I don't have to work at getting it so much." Right?  Or something, but I, I do think it's good maybe to have kind of both inclusive, exclusive too, to a degree. That way you continue to have variety, because otherwise we might all just kind of start making the same kind of art. And I think it's really important to have great diversity in art, but at the same time, I really hope that we can be very compassionate to our audience because I mean, we are building things to share with them, ultimately, I think, and I've always heard from the dance community, this great passion for, we want to get our work to a larger audience. I mean, I've always heard that in my time and being in modern dance, they always want to reach more people. And I think a way to do that is just to always be very thoughtful to the patrons.  I guess kind of both, but if it is exclusive, I would hope that there is still some thought about how it may impact the audience.
[00:38:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Those were very thoughtful answers. I really appreciate that. So if people want to get in touch with you or kind of follow your journey, mayb connect with you, is there a way for them to do that?
[00:39:12] Tessa Priem: Yes. So I am on various social media platforms. I'm on Facebook, I'm on YouTube, I'm on Instagram and all of my names are the same. You can find me a@innerreformation. So you spell inner the word inner, and then you spell the word reformation.  If you type in my name, Tessa Priem, you could probably find me too. And in fact, if you Googled my name, Tessa Priem, you would find my website immediately and see photos of me. But I would love for people to join me on the journey. In fact, that's kind of my phrase that I say, enjoy the journey. So I would, I would love for people to come with me. And, cause I, I've got a lot that I hope to share. I have so much in me that I desire to share. And these outdoor slideshows, for example, are something that I would love to get in people's homes and in businesses and institutions to share on TV screens or any type of digital screen that we have. So, yeah, you can find me @innerreformation, and I am pretty easy to approach. I love interacting with people so that you can certainly find me online.
[00:40:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you so much. Well, and thank you again for joining us, Tessa, and for all of the insights that you've provided, and thank you for sharing your story and your message with the world through your dancing. I know that, like I said earlier, that makes a difference in people's lives. So I definitely want to say thank you. And, and thank you so much to all of you who have listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:41:09] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much, and I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
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Episode 030 - Maggie Rader

In this episode, I welcome Maggie Rader! Maggie is an AEA actor and Dramatists Guild playwright based in Cincinnati, Ohio. She shares some funny and touching stories about growing up and starting her career in children's theater. Maggie brings a unique perspective to the question of whether art should be inclusive or exclusive, and why context matters. 
 
Get in touch with Maggie Rader: www.maggielourader.com
Watch "Drunk Santa Christmas Spectacular" online: https://www.cincyshakes.com/event/drunk-santa/ 
 
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Episode 30 - Maggie Rader
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.
[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Maggie Lou Rader.
[00:00:43] Maggie Rader: Hello!
[00:00:44] Lindsey Dinneen: She is an-- hi!!  She is an AEA actor and Dramatists Guild playwright based in Cincinnati, Ohio. And so thank you so much Maggie for being here!
[00:00:58] Maggie Rader: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk to another person!
[00:01:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? Yes. And I would love if you would share with our audience just a little bit about maybe who you are and your background and whatever you want to share.
[00:01:15] Maggie Rader: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up in Southwest Oklahoma in a really, really teensy town, got out and moved to the big city of Kansas City, Missouri. And, got a four year graduate degree. I may as well have been living in Manhattan. I thought it was the most cosmopolitan. It's like, oh my God, there's a Starbucks on every corner. And, I was lucky enough while I was there to study at Oxford University and go overseas, and then for grad school, I actually went back to England and studied at the Birmingham School of Acting in the UK and came back to the States, toured around for a little while doing children's theater, which is the best acting experience I've ever had because third graders are the most honest audience of all time.
[00:02:00] And then I've been in Cincinnati for 10 years. This is my--it's my 10th season as a resident actor at the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company. But I'm also lucky enough to perform at other area theaters in Dayton and Louisville. I'm living here in Cincinnati with my husband and three fur babies with four eyes between them. And we're both lucky enough to make our living performing on stage most of the time, not right now, but in our normal lives, that's what we do.
[00:02:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. I think everyone's idea of normal has shifted a bit lately. Awesome. Okay. So something peeked my interest--well, everything--you're obviously super accomplished, but something tweaked my interest immediately. And you were talking about children's theater and I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing some of the differences between performing for kiddos versus performing for adults.
[00:02:55] Maggie Rader: Oh, sure. It's the highs and the lows are just so much higher and lower. Like I have performed, what I did is I toured around with Kentucky Shakespeare for an entire year. I did about 500 performances of this two-person "Taming of the Shrew," that was all about manners and, you know, doing "Taming of the Shrew" for kids--doing "Taming of the Shrew" anyway, is a bit problematic. And if you don't address the problematic nature and why it's still important to do the play cause misogynists and misogyny still exists today, so why do we pretend like it doesn't? And these kids would always, they actually asked the most insightful questions. Like "Why was Kate so mean?" It's like, "Well, why do you think she was so mean?" And like, "Well, her dad, wasn't very nice to her." And it's like, yeah, a lot of adults don't pick up on that. It's like, "Yeah, I'd be mad too if my dad treated me the way he does and my sister was treating me the way that she does." And, but they are just the most honest audience. Ever. And that includes if you were being funny or not. And, more than once we did have kids leave the gym or wherever we were performing and there was, there were puddles on the floor cause they were laughing too hard. And it's just the cutest thing. It's like, "I'm so sorry you pee your pants," but what a great compliment, I guess.
[00:04:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh indeed.
[00:04:21] Maggie Rader: So it's, I, I encourage all my students when I'm teaching people coming out of college, do one year of performing for kids. You are going to learn more about your craft and yourself, and you're going to get more performances under your belt. Then if you perform in a live fancy theater for adults, which is really fun and really great, but I would not be half of the actor I am today if I hadn't done children's theater at first.
[00:04:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. It's so fun to perform for kids. I think I love what you said that they're the most honest audience. I mean, they really are. I remember performing back a few years ago, we used to do a show and two out of the four or five shows that we did were for kids specifically. And it was always so fun because they would laugh and they would comment and they would cheer and they were so involved, versus the adults sort of just sit there. And it's awkward, cause sometimes when things are intended to be funny, you don't get any response and you're kind of like, "Well, that was fun."
[00:05:29]Maggie Rader:  It's true. You know, even as we perform now, you know, in the big fancy theater for adults, especially doing Shakespeare, we still do a lot of educational matinees for students. And depending on what show we're doing, depends, you know, we did a "Midsummer Night's Dream" a few years ago, so we did have a lot of younger students come to see it. And my favorite thing about doing Shakespeare for kids versus adults is there so much direct address, and you know, when Shakespeare was being written, they intended for the actors to go talk to the audience and that they're probably going to respond to you because there was no concept of the fourth wall until after Shakespeare's death. And so when you perform for kids and you go ask them to be, or not to be, and when they, they respond, obviously to be, that'd be stupid, Hamlet. And when they actually respond to you, and the adults don't because, you know, there's this stigma of  Shakespeare. And I must sit and listen and let the poetry wash over me and kids are actually involved. It's like, you know, when Puck comes out on stage and the kids tell Puck where everyone is. Like, oh, it's, it's delightful.
[00:06:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yes. So I'm sure this is going to be one of those terribly difficult questions to answer, but is there a play that stands out to you as being your favorite, either to perform or to watch? I know. You can pick a couple.
[00:07:01] Maggie Rader: What a good, good, good question. One of my, I think my dream role of dream roles was to play Maggie the Cat in "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof." And, I got to do it--oh, in 2017, I think-- it was a few years ago and it was just so much fun. You know, we worked with a really great director called Michael Haney who works in Missouri a lot, as well, but, oh my gosh, when that play is done well, and it moves and it's quick. You know, the audience came every night expecting, you know, the Elizabeth Taylor movie, which, oh my gosh, the script is awful. Like they just absolutely decimate the story and they take the onus away from Maggie at the end and they make it Brick's choice to go upstairs and, and they just completely changed the ending of the play.
[00:07:54] And so it's fun to do plays like that, where the audience thinks they, they think that they know the story. Like "Romeo and Juliet." Everyone thinks that they know "Romeo and Juliet," but when you start making sex jokes and the audience is completely taken off guard, it's like, well, it's the dirtiest play in the cannon. There's a lot of sex jokes, but it's really fun to do those plays that the audience, especially our smart adult audiences think they know, but they don't. And so I think "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" was, it was a really special one for me and it was, it, you know, it's always nice when other people appreciate. And it's, it was nice to hear that the staff at the theater, still a lot of them think it's their favorite show that we've done in our new space. And, that always does my heart good. However, if I'm going to go watch a play, I want to watch August Wilson's "Fences" every day of the week. It is one of the most beautiful pieces of poetry and life I've ever seen. August Wilson's "Fences," maybe one of my favorite plays of all time. I never going to be in it, but there is not a role for me in it, but by golly, I love watching it.
[00:09:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. So I'm curious, have you always been very brave, so to speak, and bold, or did you ever deal with stage fright or how did that all evolve?
[00:09:26] Maggie Rader: You know, I think I'm just one of those dumb, lucky people that it's never occurred to me to not just be loud and say what I think. And I, I'm sure-- I know you know my father and I'm sure that when I, the very first time I ever performed was in kindergarten. And you know, my father will also tell you, I have about as much patience as he does, and they were all auditioning us for our, we were doing this Valentine's Day variety show, as you do in kindergarten. And I wanted to do the Valentine's dance with the beautiful Craig Johnson. Oh, my gosh. What if Craig Johnson listens to this? Craig, I had such a crush on you in kindergarten! And I just wanted to do the Valentine's dance with Craig Johnson and they were auditioning kids for the "12 Days of Valentines." Like the "12 Days of Christmas." And the first day of Valentine's was "a fox in a fur coat." And if you count the syllables, there's not enough syllables. So it had to be "and a fox in a fur coat" at the end, and it makes no sense. And all these kids were tripping over it and couldn't get it right. And they're parading all these kids up trying to say, "and a fox in a fur coat." And I was getting so frustrated that they. I finally just slapped the table, stood up and said, "Guys, how hard is it to say "and a fox in a fur coat." And I sat back down, and stupid me, got the part when I didn't even want it. And I didn't get to do the Valentine's Day dance with Craig Johnson.
[00:11:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, but it launched your acting career. That is a fantastic story. Oh, my word, I love that. So then did you ever get to have a dancing role or was that like, "I really wanted it then and didn't need it later on."
[00:11:26] Maggie Rader: You know? No, I've done two musicals in my entire life. One of them was in college. I had to do "Pippin." I had to do "Pippin." It was my senior year. It was the first musical they'd done in a really long time. And I didn't go and audition because I can't sing or dance. And the head of the department called me into his office and he said, "Maggie, I noticed that you didn't audition for 'Pippin.'" Oh yeah, "No, not at all." And he said, "Maggie, you're going to be in 'Pippin.'" It's like, "I don't want to be in "Pippin." I will fail at "Pippin." And I would rather not be in 'Pippin.'" And he said, "Suck it up, deal with it. You're in 'Pippin.'" And so I had to be a player in "Pippin" and I still don't like that musical. I think it's weird. Like, it's not even just weird. I just don't think it's very good. And maybe I'm... might be treason when it comes to musical theater, but I don't like "Pippin." I don't like the music. I just don't like it and..
[00:12:25] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fine!
[00:12:26] Maggie Rader: And I have bronchitis the whole show, so I couldn't even sing. So I was lip-synching the whole thing. And then some fool cast me--I was very blonde in college--some fool cast me in "Sugar." And "Sugar," the musical, which is the musical version of "Some Like It Hot" and it's not a very good musical. It didn't run on Broadway for very long, but I had to play Sugar Shell in "Sugar," the musical, and the sweet music director stayed after and coached me through the songs. Cause I don't have a very good ear for music, and luckily I didn't have to dance that much in it either. But I do, because of Shakespeare, we tend to do bergamasques at the end of the shows, which, well, the end of the comedies. In Shakespeare's day, every play, whether it was comedy, tragedy, or history, they did a bergamasque, a dance at the end of the show. So, you know, it's the smothered Desdemona gets up from the bed and does the bergamasque dance at the end of "Othello." But so I've had to do lots of dancing in Shakespeare, but luckily I'm doing it with a bunch of other Shakespearian actors and I move better than most of them, which gives me hope.
[00:13:35]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, there you go.
[00:13:38] Maggie Rader: So I had to do it, whether I liked it or not.
[00:13:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair enough. Okay. So what was the moment or maybe series of moments that led you to realize, "this is my calling?"
[00:13:51] Maggie Rader: You know, I think like many artists, who, who live in cities-- you know, the arts gave me an outlet in high school. High school wasn't fun. Was high school fun for anybody? If it was, I don't think I'd trust them.
[00:14:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I don't either.
[00:14:08] Maggie Rader: Yeah. And it, it gave me something to do when I was living in a really small rural town and didn't have a ton of friends and, but I quickly found out, I like this. I'm good at this. This is fun. And I auditioned in college. I was going to be a radio production major in college, but then they ended up selling the the radio station and the entire program. So I was like, "Well, do I switch schools? Do I, what do I do?" And luckily I had a really lovely head of the department--who made me do "Pippin" later, but I'll forgive him-- but he said, "You know, I think you could do this if you wanted to." And it just never really occurred to me that I could be a professional stage actor. I thought, "Oh yeah, I can do radio. I can, you know, do news broadcasting." And there are avenues that I can do that are still performance, but it's probably a more responsible career choice. So I was really looking at a journalism and things like that. Oh, well, cause it's, this is what I love to do, so I guess I'll try it,  and I kind of made that decision in college, and yeah, it's been going great ever since. Lucky me. But yeah, until COVID hit. I've been working since I got out of school and so has my husband. So.
[00:15:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. That's absolutely fantastic. Well, are there any moments sort of along the way of your, your life, your journey, that really stand out as an encounter with art to kind of tuck away and remember?
[00:15:39] Maggie Rader: Yeah, totally. You know, I-- and I know I said that I did a lot of children's theater, but I do also do a lot of teaching too-- and actually when I was on that children's tour, for the Kentucky Shakespeare, right out of grad school, I was out in Eastern Kentucky. So we were staying in Hazard, because it was the biggest town. And then we were going to all these rural schools in the mountains. So we were out there for an entire week, and working, and going to every single children or, elementary school in the county. And so I was in a classroom and I was doing a workshop where the kids each had to do, they had to be one of the witches in Scottish play. And we were just talking about what it means to be a witch, or it's like, "Okay, well, this play's been done for 400 years. So how can we put our own spin on it and make it our own Scottish play?" Because all Shakespeare really wants is that these witches are not human, so if we're producing our own Scottish play, what would we want our witches to look like and sound and move? And so I gave out the, you know, "When shall we three meet again?" scene, and broke the kids into groups of three.
[00:16:47] And I just saw this one kid who was just shut down from the very, very, very beginning. And I went over to him and I said, "Hey, do you need some help?" And the teacher just talked to the entire classroom and she said, "Oh, he don't read." I kind of stopped. And I said, Hhe don't read well, or at all?" And she said, "Oh no, he don't read at all." It's like, okay. And so I pulled him aside and I said, "Hey, if I, if I read it to you, can you remember it?" And he's like, "Oh yeah!" And it just broke my heart that it felt like this kid had been given up on by his class and his teacher. And it's like, this kid is smart. He needs to read in a different way.
[00:17:33] And he hasn't been helped. But if a kid can memorize an entire scene of Shakespeare, if I read it to him first, that kid's smart. And he did! I read it out loud and he remembered every line he had and it just--you know, and when I was growing up, the only arts experience we had in high school was Miss Oklahoma coming and talking to us about following your dreams or something. I don't know. And that was our arts exposure in high school. And I thought, "God, if we can find a way to connect to these rural kids, so that they know that the arts is an avenue, or even a way to channel what you're going through. You know, you don't have to do it as a career, but if it helps you learn, if it helps you learn how to read, what a way to not give up on those kids who learn differently."
[00:18:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Wow, what a story! I, it's amazing to me. I mean, I would think very few adults would be able to hear a monologue or whatever one time and be able to quote it. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah. I mean, I don't think most of us could ever do that. Yeah. Ah, so I hope, yeah, that's, that's a really amazing moment. And I, I can only imagine that that definitely made an impression on him, and just realizing that there are alternate ways of learning or expressing or whatever, and that's a big deal.
[00:19:09] Maggie Rader: I think, cause that was 12 years ago, you know, the kid is, it's an adult now. And I, I still think about him a lot. I hope he's doing well.
[00:19:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing that story. That's really impactful. So I'm curious, I know that like so many artists, lately you've sort of had to just, you know, switch gears a little bit, be a little more creative in your approach to continuing to do your art. And I, I know that you have something coming up. So do you mind sharing a little bit about, you know, maybe like what's happened, how you kind of transitioned during this time and sort of what's what's coming up for you?
[00:19:50] Maggie Rader: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's been tough. I was running a really wonderful play called "Alabaster" by a good friend and playwright named Audrey Cefaly. And I was running that in March and we ended up having to close the last week of the show. And it was tough, but luckily I've been able to dive more into my writing, which has been fabulous. And it's not really, I've been writing a lot faster during COVID because I'm not having to memorize lines and go do shows at night. So I've actually been able to, I finished a full length called "The Helpers," which follows the story of Miep Gies, who helped the Frank family high during World War II. And it was supposed to have a workshop at DePaul University last May, and because of COVID, it was all virtual, which meant I didn't have to go up to Chicago once a week, which was probably helpful.
[00:20:39]But that play has been finished. And, the reading of, of it is online and able to view on my website. I've also written a play called "The Wonder," start to finish, which is a full length, since COVID hit. And it's about the true story, so they say, of the first documented spiritual possession in the United States, which took place in Watseka, Illinois. So I keep calling it an American Midwestern ghost story for mothers and daughters, and it's very sweet. But it it's about healing and connection. So I'm sure there's a reason why that's the story that kind of came to fruition during COVID. But it is a story about family and connection and deep, deep, deep healing. But it's lovely. It's just a little five hander that's about an hour and a half long and, we did a reading of it via Zoom, and that's also available on my website too. But then as an actor, it's been really great to see the theater companies, you know, trying to produce and create during this time and keeping their audience bases engaged.
[00:21:43]So normally right now, my husband and I would both be in rehearsals for the Christmas show at the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company called, "Every Christmas Story Ever Told," which is kind of a mashup of everyone's favorite holiday movies and books and things like that. It's very fun and silly. But since we can't do it this year instead, they got the four of us, the actors who would have done the show, together. And we did a lot of writing. So we kind of had a, you know, SNL style or writing session for a week. And then we recorded what we're calling "Drunk Santa's Holiday Spectacular." It's, it's very fun. It's silly. The four of us come over to Santa's apartment in the North Pole. And, you know, she's just not feeling up to delivering presents this year. And so we try to see what's on television to kind of get her spirits up and it's-- so I, we have, it's like we wrote our own Hallmark movie and a 92nd Hallmark movie, a sketch about the proud bucks that are trying to kidnap Rudolph because he's forcing them to wear masks.
[00:22:58] And, what else? I wrote something else for it, and I can't even think of it.  What else did we even do? It, like I filmed it two weeks ago. And these days in COVID the days are, the days are long and the weeks are short. So the Great British Baking Show. That's what I wrote. Right. So as, as hosts are coming and going so fast that, oh, who's the Hell's Kitchen guy, Gordon Ramsey. Gordon Ramsey is one of the new hosts on the Great British Baking Show and it's delightful and fun and silly. And, so we're just trying to mash up topical things from 2020, but also fun holiday traditions. And it's going to be about an hour long and it premieres, I think, December 4th is when, and you can get a DVD of it. You can stream it and watch it online, whatever's easiest for you, but it's, it's gonna be a lot of fun and hopefully a lot of laughs.
[00:24:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I just, as soon as you said the title, I was like, "Oh, I'm in. Definitely. Oh, how fun!"
[00:24:08] Maggie Rader: It all started--the company used to do that show on a stage at a local bar called Arnold's, which is a lovely, it's the oldest, one of the two oldest operating bars in the United States. Like they still operated during prohibition, and so the show started on this itty bitty courtyard stage, and they needed kind of a stage manager. So they dressed up this wonderful Australian actress in town, and she was Drunk Santa, who was also pretending to be Drunk Santa, also pretty much being the stage manager and running sound cues and things like that. But now that the show is on our big stage and has-- I've been going now for 15 years--it's like, well, now Drunk Santa is just kind of a part of it. And since we were writing our own thing, it's finally time for it to be Drunk Santa show.
[00:24:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. I can't wait to watch this. I'm very excited. Well, awesome. I have a couple of questions that I love to ask my guests, if you're okay with that. Awesome. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:25:15] Maggie Rader: Oh, what a good question. How do I define art or what is art to me? I think just expression. Yeah, expression. My mom is a wonderful visual artist and, I growing up, I wanted to be an artist because that's what my mom was. And when I realized I didn't have a lot of visual art skills, I was so sad that I was like, you can't be an artist. Like my mom and I, when I was wanting to do plays and things, I said, "Mom, does that still make you an artist?" She's like, "Well, yeah, of course it does." It's like, "Oh, thank God. I can still be an artist like my mom." And yeah, I think it's just expression, whatever it is to you. Because what is the opposite of art? Like stagnation? Yeah, I guess I just say expression.
[00:25:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Okay. I love it. Well. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:26:06] Maggie Rader: Oh, to connect, I'd say. You know, we were joking before we started rehearsing. It's like, "Oh, why does live theater still exist when movies are around?" And if you mess up, you can just start over and you only have to do it once then. But that's why live theater is still around. It's so much about connection. And I feel like out of all the, and maybe that's why I love the stage. It's, I feel like when you're doing live theater, you get to connect so much more than in other artistic mediums that I love, and enjoy, but it's not my particular passion. So yeah, I think the most important role is, or thing you can do, is to connect.
[00:26:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And exclusive referring to somebody who puts their art out into the world and doesn't provide a whole lot of context behind it, so it's really up to the audience to kind of determine what they will. Versus inclusive referring to an artist who does share some context, whether that's a title or program notes or Q&A or anything like that.
[00:27:22]Maggie Rader:  What a good question. I, I don't know if I think that they're both completely separate things, I guess. And what a great discussion to have, you know, it's, as we talk about artists' work and, you know, enjoying Michael Jackson's body of work, even though he may have been a child predator. And I, I say may have been because he was never found guilty and, or, you know, R Kelly, can you enjoy people's work while knowing possibly the background of what was happening in their lives when they created it? And it's just such a good conversation to always be having. And also as artists, what a responsibility we have, you know. It's, my husband and I were having a long talk about politicians. We had our third member of city council in Cincinnati that was arrested this week for bribery charges. And we just talked about how, what a responsibility it is when you do go into the life of, of politics. Was Bill Clinton's impact on our society lessened because of what he did in his personal life? That you go into some professions and you have a greater responsibility that's bigger than yourself.
[00:28:45] And I feel like art is part of that. And because yes, I think, to use "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof," as an example, Maggie the Cat was based on a woman called Maria St. Just who was half Russian, half English, and just this force of a woman. And, you know, she was engaged to this dude who was very rich, a Prince of something or other. And, she went out and bought him a tie for every day of the week. Two for Sundays. And he was so embarrassed that she'd done that, that she'd spent all this money for ties and he said, "Well, what are you going to do with my money when we get married?" She said, "Oh, do you have some? Well, then I'll probably spend it." And he left her and they never got married. And she was like, "Well, that was, that's not fair. I was just honest with him."
[00:29:40] But there's this really great memoir of, like, I guess it's the letters that Tennessee Williams and Maria St. Just wrote back and forth when she was, you know, just starting out as an actor and, Tennessee Williams was a nobody writer and they met at a party and just had a wonderful friendship for the rest of his life until he died. And reading these letters back and forth, to me who was playing Maggie, it made that role so much deeper. And, you know, I've never seen Maggie as the villain of that story and even more so after I, I read the book, but if you wanted, it's fabulous, it's called "Five O'Clock Angel" and it's a wonderful book, but that play means so much more to me knowing whom Maria St. Just was. So, I guess I'd have to thank you for listening to me yammer on while I worked that out for myself.
[00:30:33] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it.
[00:30:34] Maggie Rader: Because at the risk of, of course, I guess it has to be inclusive because, I do have guilt when I enjoy Michael Jackson's art and that's for me-- you know, I, I will never judge someone else's line when it comes to that, I guess, but for me, I, his work is tainted now for me. R Kelly, like I can't watch "Space Jam" the same way, and that's probably a really small price to pay because you know, it's "Space Jam." But yeah, it's tainted for me, knowing the kinds of things that man has done, and which is why, you know, Tennessee Williams is one of my favorite playwrights because, I respect, you know, what he did for his sister and his mother. So when I read "Glass Menagerie," I can't divorce what he did for his, for his sister who was lobotimzed. When I read "Glass Menagerie," it brings so much more depth to that story for me. So, yeah, I guess inclusive. It should be inclusive decidedly. 
[00:31:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. I actually really appreciate your working it out because it was-- I think that you bring actually a really good, unique perspective to this. And I, nobody has talked about it quite in those terms of how much the context matters to how you can personally enjoy it. And I really actually think that that's a really good point to make because that it does make a difference and, you know, to kind of dismiss that isn't particularly fair. 
[00:32:11] Maggie Rader: You know, be Banksy and keep her anonymity. And I guess that is valid as well, but also the anonymity of it is its own persona on it, of itself. So you still can't enforce it, can you?
[00:32:24]Lindsey Dinneen: In, indeed
[00:32:26] Maggie Rader: Oh, my brain just exploded.
[00:32:29] Lindsey Dinneen: There we go. Well, you never know what a conversation about art will do. Awesome. Okay. Well, so first of all, thank you so much, Maggie, for joining us today. I really, really appreciate it. Love your stories. You've got some absolutely fantastic ones. Yeah. And I was just wondering if any of us want to kind of get in touch with you or follow your work, especially watch your upcoming film, is there a way that we can do that?
[00:32:58] Maggie Rader: Absolutely. I try to keep my personal website up-to-date all the time. So if you go to, it's just my whole name, maggielourader.com. And my last name is spelled R A D E R, and on my home page, there is a link to Cincy Shakes' site where, 1) you can watch the trailer of the "Drunk Santa Holiday Spectacular," which is fun and delightful all on its own, and you can also purchase a DVD. You can purchase the streaming rights that'll be available on December 4th, but you can get your tickets now. And you can also go to my playwriting page. And if you want to see the Zoom readings of either "The Helpers" or "The Wonder," they're all up there. And you can absolutely contact me through my website or just sending an email, which is just my first and last name, Maggie Rader, R A D E R@live, L I V E.com. Or you can just do the Contact Me page on my website and it'll send me an email directly. So either one works.
[00:34:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, thank you. And I just want to say, you know, on behalf of myself and our listeners and all the people that you touch through your art, thank you for being a brave, bold person who stands up for when you know, the fox is in the fur or whatever, and you need to demonstrate that! But seriously, thank you so much for sharing your art with the world and for sharing it with kids that you teach and with adults that you have conversations with. I think that makes such a difference in people's lives. And, I just appreciate that that's what you've chosen to do with your life. So thank you.
[00:34:47] Maggie Rader: Thank you. Thank you so much for this. This is, I hope it's been fun for all, cause this has been just delightful to sit and chat with you.
[00:34:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, it has been delightful and I'm, I'm sure our readers feel the, or listeners--here we go--feel the same. I mean, you can read the transcript so it could be readers too. Well, thank you so much again, Maggie, and thank you to all of you who have listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:35:24] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:35:33]Hey Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told for listening to the episodes and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you.  I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves, to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast even very small monthly donation, like $5 a month would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I have set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors, so everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

Episode 029 - Anh Le

In this episode, I welcome Anh Le! Anh is a student filmmaker in the Bay Area, currently working on producing a feature film addressing a story about Vietnamese culture and PTSD. She shares about her filmmaking journey, her advice for artists, and how to accomplish your biggest artistic goals! (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is artwork for Anh's new film, "Flaws of an Everlasting Memory.")
 
Get in touch with Anh Le: https://anhimated.wixsite.com/portfolio
Holly Jolly Fundraiser for FOAEM: https://tinyurl.com/foaemhjc2020
Flaws of an Everlasting Memory Website: https://www.foaem.com/
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Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com
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Episode 29 - Anh Le
Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.
[00:00:08] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.
[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.
[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.
[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.
[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Anh Le. She is a student filmmaker from the Bay Area who is working on a feature film that touches on Vietnamese culture and how people cope with PTSD. So she is actively working on projects that use art to change culture and opinions and everything that I just love that art can do. So I am so excited to have you today and to be able to share art with you. So thank you so much for being here, Ahn.
[00:01:16] Anh Le: Thank you very much, Lindsey, for having me here. I am so excited to share you about my endeavors for film and also to help filmmakers around here in the Bay Area and across the United States.
[00:01:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Well, I would love if you would share a little bit about your story, maybe some of your background, how you got into filmmaking, all those great things.
[00:01:39] Anh Le: Sure. I got to film probably much longer than I would have thought of, but I didn't realize it until I went out to college. In the past, I had worked with poetry, graphic design and prose, short stories, but haven't gotten in touch into film quite yet. I still remember back in 2012, when I was watching the Academy Awards for the first time. And there was the 50th anniversary of "The Sound of Music," one of my most favorite films of all time. I really want to get up there someday. And after getting into the film classes, I have a much more profound appreciation of the independent films that my professors have taught me. And from here, I don't think it matters whether I go to Hollywood or not, but I really want to utilize film to heal the wounds of society.
[00:02:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think that's really amazing. And you know, at the very beginning we had briefly talked about, even before we got on that, you're actually working on a feature film right now. Can you tell us more about? Oh my goodness. What a cool opportunity that is just how that kind of all came about.
[00:02:53] Anh Le: Yeah, sure. Last semester I was in a screenwriting class and there was this story that I wanted to do as a short film, but after developing the story much further, I realized this has to be a feature film I need to make sometime while using the Vietnamese language. Because I was introduced to some films, like “Co Ba Saigon” and “Em Chua 18,” which are pretty great films and hilarious ones as well, but also has a really deep touch into there. With these films, I incorporate a lot of the French classic cinema style in here as well as some films like, "Her" and "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" to really great romance films and created "Flaws of an Everlasting Memory."
[00:03:40] This follows a story of a lonely uptime lexicographer who struggles to find love in Saigon while grappling with untimely death of his first love. A lexicographer is someone who studies about the language that they're given and they also see how it evolves and how it can be incorporated into the dictionary. I thought it was fascinating because when I took Vietnamese classes at a younger age, I thought that I would be adequate enough to understand what people are saying and I'm writing about. But when I went over to Vietnam, there seems to be a huge change in how people use slang and also interact with each other. So I want to utilize that evolution for this film and also twist this romance with a little bit of mental health to show that sometimes we don't need to find the perfect person for companionship. Sometimes companionship can be found just within five steps of each other, such as your best friend, or maybe your coworker. Or someone that, that you've been in a long time getting in touch with.
[00:04:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's incredible. And what a cool story to have gone from potentially this short story to fully kind of evolved. So are you still in the writing process or are you more already into the production process and all of that?
[00:05:12]Anh Le: In this film, I actually just recently finished translating the script. Of course, there will be minor changes along the way. I have selected actors that are suitable for the roles I'm looking for. And I also have to identify maybe there's a certain way they say something that I might change it, or maybe the works that I've provided for them, it's a bit stilted. And it's not comfortable with them. So I might change that too. But for the most part, the story structure has been solid at the moment. My team and I are focusing on a Holly Jolly Fundraiser. Now this is one of the more expensive films we're working on, although in the industry, they consider this as, I believe a medium, moderate, low budget. It's in the $325,000 range. And it's crazy. This is a low, a low budget, but we're doing our best to reach out to potential donors. And we've been fiscally sponsored by a wonderful nonprofit called From the Heart Productions who focuses on supporting indie filmmakers like us, that intend to make an impact in society.
[00:06:27]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, and so that's probably a new area, even for you to explore perhaps with the fundraising aspect, but how has COVID and all the precautions and all the things that you need to take, how has that affected your process?
[00:06:45] Anh Le: Originally, I was intending to switch to a different profession, which is web design or communications, because it was something that was, that seemed more stable compared to some of the art related careers. A lot of the film industry has shut down and right now they're slowly trying to get back up as more people are trying to get the content out there. But I was fortunate enough to have met a colleague who I met at my college, and she's also the family advisory board at my university. She helps me a lot and understanding about the pursuit of dreams. And she's, she's really the one who got me back in check. I consider her as a fairy godmother to me. And from there I've been utilizing my knowledge to help all filmmakers. Whenever I network with them, I also shared my knowledge on how to network with people, how to get fundraising for donors. And also some photography tips, because I also love to do photography as a hobby, especially modeling photography.
[00:07:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Excellent. And so do you have any kind of timeline in mind or is it still sort of in process and we'll see how it goes?
[00:08:08] Anh Le: Our goal is to do the music recording at Skywalker Sound. So this studio has been known for doing sound mixing and also music producing for, for example, "The Last Black Man in San Francisco," some Pixar films, and even some Star Wars films. I have a very talented music producer named Logan Gammill, who I met at West Valley College. I was introduced by a friend and he's been helping me a lot with the original score. And composing the original song ever since. So this victory, and I want, I want him to achieve his full recording there as well. When it comes to the production itself, we intend to do it in July . Of course, this may change or hinder depending of the conditions of COVID-19, but we hope to get all the cast and crew here in the Bay Area to bring this film to life.
[00:09:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is so cool. This must be such an amazing dream come true. I can only imagine how excited you must feel, but it's, it's massive. So on a day-to-day basis, how are you prioritizing tasks and things like that? I mean, this is, it's a fantastic undertaking, but at times I would imagine it would feel a little maybe daunting.
[00:09:32] Anh Le: Yes, it is, it is kind of shocking. I have a few colleagues that told me, like, why are you doing a feature film? Like, you know, you could have, you could've done a short film instead, and this is the craziest thing. And I look at myself and I was like, yeah, this is crazy. Why did I, why did I move on with this? You could have stopped me. But, so I, I am very fortunate to have producers who work with me a lot whom are students attending schools in the Bay Area. And I'm, unto myself and attending school while getting involved in clubs. There's a lot of time management here, but with what I've done at my college, I think I can handle this workload so far. And I wouldn'd have been able to focus a lot with the artistic side without my friends' support.
[00:10:19] So I have some people who are involved in, for example, business administration, psychology. And these, there are some students who are not filmmakers, but the quality of their work has convinced me to have them involve my team. They're great colleagues that I've worked with so far, and they have done some outstanding work such as the website, the fundraising plan. And we have also reached out to grants and full festival opportunities across some of the world.
[00:10:50] Lindsey Dinneen: That is really cool. And so out of curiosity, do you plan to film mostly in the Bay Area or does the film, will you end up being filmed a few other places or how's that all gonna work out?
[00:11:06] Anh Le: For the majority part, yes, we will be filming in the Bay Area. We will be utilizing some spaces in San Francisco. I haven't contacted this place yet, but there's a beautiful library at UC Berkeley. I've been seeing some pictures. And this is where my inspiration comes to mind for a particular library scene in my film, and also utilizing San Jose and some nearby locations as well. Even though my film takes place in Saigon, due to the financial limitations, it may not be achievable, but I believe I can try to accommodate the look with what the Bay Area can offer. I mean, for example, I, I actually learned from the movie "Her," although the story seems to take place in Southern California, they also had shot their scenes in Shanghai and I didn't realize it. And it was incredible what they can do with the visual manipulation and creativity.
[00:12:05]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when you're dedicated and willing to be creative and to creatively solve things, then of course the world is so much more open to you. So that's, that's really cool to hear. I commend you. So I'm, I'm curious, obviously you have a lot of passion for the film and for the story, what sort of settled you on this particular storyline, especially perhaps if you're willing to speak to the mental health aspect of it, which is so important to talk about. But what kind of led you to realize, or whatever that this was something that really needed, a story that really needed to be told?
[00:12:50]Anh Le: I was actually first inspired by a short film I worked on called “Sarah King” with Colby Cao, and in this story, it tells us about a sister who was struggling to mourn over her older sister's loss. My taking in bad things like, like drugs, and from there, I felt that PTSD, I had watched some films and heard different stories about PTSD and they come in different levels and different experiences. So I want to test out and see what I can do in the shadow of romance, because there must have been people who have experienced trauma of losing a loved one in the past. And I want to understand how people cope with it. There are a lot of families and communities right now who don't understand too much about mental health and they, they might've think of this as something that can easily be gone away, like you'll have some medication or you'll heal in time, but what the people who might contact and learn about there are some mental health, like PTSD that lingers for a much longer time. And I want to bring out for that in the spotlight. So that way people can understand, "Oh, this is how some people may experience it." And of course, while this, this movie is a fictional story, everyone experiences mental health in different levels in different ways. And in order to help them out, we also need to understand their story, their background. And from there we are, we'll be able to utilize our strengths and our community connections in order to support them rather than saying, "Oh, this, this is something that can be easily bored away with time."
[00:14:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. So I'm curious,  we kind of learned how you got into filmmaking, but I'm curious--since obviously you're interested in the arts in general-- how did you come to the conclusion that filmmaking was the best way to tell this story? I'm sure that it is, but I'm just curious since there are in theory, other ways to share this story, have you ever considered other paths, or is filmmaking like--well, it, it needs to be told this way for this reason?
[00:15:24] Anh Le: I have done poetry, short story writing. Those have never been published before. I mostly, most likely did it with my school assignments and also for the scholarship opportunities. And as a hobby, I felt that what's filmmaking--a lot of people would be able to have much wider access when it comes to the visual representation, because I do have some symbolism in mine that connects more or less with the Vietnamese culture that may not be obtained with a book, or written material in general. I feel that by utilizing film, not only are we able to engage a lot with the language and the overall look, but also with sound, because sound I recall from my classes is 50% of your fill or actually even more. And without sound, we wouldn't be really able to perceive the intensity and depth of the film. There are a lot of people who think visuals are important, but visuals can only extend you so far. Like in, I remember when I was traveling, in Vietnam the way, obviously the way people talk was different from here in the Bay Area, the ambulance sounds were different. The sirens of the police cars were definitely different. And also the texture and the field environment is different. Even though Saigon, we have this metropolis city that's growing, it's different from the look that we see in New York or Chicago or even San Francisco. And you can definitely tell when you, whenever you traveled there.
[00:17:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. Thank you. Well, I'm also curious, so, are there any stories that come to mind either from growing up or maybe even in this process of creating this film where you just had this moment of connecting with art in some way, and you thought, "Wow, I have to remember this because this is a moment that matters that, where art made an impact."
[00:17:42]Anh Le: I would say, it's pretty weird to say that a lot of the films I've made come from my dreams and sometimes they come with different blurbs. I just don't understand where it would go. Like I, I remember I was dreaming for this particular film there was an argument between, the two main characters and this came from an inspiration, as I said, from a short film, I was working on. I was thinking about it. And for some reason, like three to four weeks, I was stuck in, in this dream trying to understand, "Okay, what are the characters arguing about?" What are they, what are stressing about, what are the flaws that we have here? And after that, it was a challenge actually writing this particular story in order because of the twist that is involved. I had to work backwards. So I, I had written the ending. I knew what would happen to the characters, but I didn't know how to begin it. So I had to float us backwards. I had worked on a couple other scripts that deal with different social topics. And at the same time, they're more or less inspired by other films I've seen that come into dream as well. Of course, I don't remember every single one of my dream, but when I do remember, I jot it down in the book. Sometimes the dreams may not relate each other. And when I have an assignment or something that I can think of, that's when I really put these pieces together and understand what my characters are doing and why they want to achieve their goals.
[00:19:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And what a fascinating writing process, the fact that, yeah, you started with the ending and then worked backwards from there. I kind of love that. I haven't ever actually written them, but I've had a few instances of things like that, where I thought," Oh, this is a good ending, but I don't even know how to begin it." So that's pretty cool. Excellent. Well, you had mentioned earlier with your networking and trying to help other artists as well--and I love that, I think that's so important, especially collaboration-- but is there any particular advice that you would give to someone who wants to pursue a artistic endeavor, especially-- well, actually, let me just start there and then I'll ask a follow-up question.
[00:20:05] Anh Le: For someone who's pursuing an artistic endeavor in general, I would stretch out what kind of goals you want to achieve. For example, in five years, in 10 years, because I have met very talented people who have changed their position from being an artist to maybe something that's more substantial. Like I said, computer engineering, communications, business administration, but at the same time that people have met, they haven't solidified down what kind of projects or goals that they want to make. So I would first find that out because that will more or less determined how you want to pursue a goal. Because without that, without those goals, if you just want to become a filmmaker, that may be a challenge to really going for what kind of position you want. At the same time for filmmaking, they come in so many different avenues. You can utilize it for commercialism. I'm sure a lot of business, they will need this kind of art in order to promote their products as well. So we've seen that out in the field and not the same time. YouTube is highly accessible. So really understanding your goals, making plans and really going forward them will help you pursue a lot more in the art field rather than just saying, "Oh, I want to become an artist and I'm going to make stuff."
[00:21:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Thank you for that. I think that is really incredible advice. And I want to highlight something that you said that I often also say, especially when I am talking about pursuing dreams--but you had said that there are many avenues, and I think that's such an important concept of--you know, as an artist, flexibility is sort of part of the job, but that's an exciting element of the job. So there are always so many avenues to a dream. And if one particular one doesn't quite pan out the way that you thought, there are so many more, if you're willing to explore them. So thank you for that, because I think that's just a very incredibly important observation.  And then my part B for that question is what you're doing is undertaking a huge dream and goal. And I have so much admiration and respect for that. I think that that is incredible. What kind of advice would you give to someone who has a dream on that scale?
[00:22:49] Anh Le: For that scale, again, I would say understand your goals and how you want to go forth with your career--and when you make the plans for those of course, I'm sure COVID-19 has ruined a lot of plans for everyone--but backup plans also help us well. I've also met artists who have full-time jobs and part-time jobs with their main career. And you like see film as part of their main dream. You know, some people have been secretly making films in the attic or in the backyard or something, and it worked out. Some of them have won festivals and such. So really art doesn't need too much. It really needs a goal to motivate people to pursuing it. Because without that, I mean, it will be very difficult to strive for your dream if you don't have a vision for it.
[00:23:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, so true. Thank you for that. That was great. Well, I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.
[00:23:58] Anh Le: No problem, ask away.
[00:24:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wonderful. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?
[00:24:07] Anh Le: To me, art is something where for me I can utilize to heal the wounds of society. But it's also a very interesting way of expressing storytelling because I've seen, for example, abstract art, and I'm an artist myself too. So sometimes I see it and I just connected with things maybe, for example, the sun or, or like the womb of someone, every person sees art differently. And, even with one movie, people can say so many things. For example, like, one person can say, "Oh, from this movie, I learned more about domestic abuse and the effects of it." But another person might say, "I've learned about the importance of having a mentor in life." So you can have one movie. It's the same exact story. But so many different takes. And I think art has pursued the same way, because it is a way where we share, we share stories and everyone takes, has different take based on how they were raised, how they were influenced by art and so forth.
[00:25:21]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Great. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?
[00:25:28] Anh Le: The most important role of an artist? I believe it's really getting their story out there because again, stories can come in so many different forms from sculptures and ceramics and everything that you can imagine. I know a lot of people of color are really trying to get their stories out there in the industry. And definitely there has been much more opportunity for them than there has ever before though. So, in COVID-19 the opportunities now, people can start connecting with each other much more easily, rather than going face-to-face and location that might cost them, might have much more cost to an artist anticipated. So really taking the opportunity now to share these stories, or even put these stories in development. So that way they could bring more awareness to the world or even enhance a beauty of a particular culture.
[00:26:24]Lindsey Dinneen:  I love that. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is for inclusive, the artist shares something, you know, what they've created with the world and gives a little bit of context behind that could be as simple as a title, or it could be something where it's program notes, or an explanation of what the artist was thinking, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their art out into the world and doesn't provide much context behind it. So it's more up to the audience to decide. If that makes sense.
[00:27:07] Anh Le: Wow, this is one of those questions you got me stumped. So I really believe it depends on the artist itself, because for me, I want to be inclusive and exclusive on my art because not only am I going to share my narrative towards my community, but also want to see the unique perspectives that they will provide to the film. Because, that will allow me to know, "Oh, this is what they pay attention to. This is what's significant to them." Maybe for some other artists, they rather be more inclusive or they'd rather be more exclusive. It really depends on each person. And,  everything has a storytelling process. So each person, they're first in what perspective they want to tell. That's, that's what I have to say.
[00:27:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Thank you. So I'm curious, is there a way for us to kind of keep in step with you a little bit as you work towards the production of this film and maybe connect with you personally, especially if anyone's seeking additional advice, is there a way for us to do that?
[00:28:16] Anh Le: Sure. I have a website for my feature film. So the feature film title is "Flaws of an Everlasting Memory" and yes, it is a long title. So we narrowed it down to the initials FOAEM.com. It has all the informations for all of our film, and I believe there is an About page where you can reach out to the creative team, with the email, LinkedIn, and maybe even their portfolios. I know I put my portfolio up there if anyone wants access to it. And, I'd be more than happy to connect with anyone who would simply like to network or is looking for advice, or wants to have a tea day out because I, I sure do love drinking tea during this time of quarantine, and connecting with people.
[00:29:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And then would there be a way--is your fundraising that you're doing right now--say some of our listeners are inspired to help support your endeavor--is there a way for them to do this? Is this a public fundraiser that they can participate in?
[00:29:25] Anh Le: Yes, there is a public fundraiser. So we put up this campaign called the Holly Jolly Campaign and the link,  it is tinyurl.com/foaemhjc2020. In this campaign, we provide different perks that include our work of poetry, graphic design, and specifically for those in the Bay Area, we would offer photography services because, you can have included for your portfolio, your biography, LinkedIn, and whatsoever. But the other two perks are much more accessible to a wider community. They were more than happy to share these perks with any donation that they're able to provide.
[00:30:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you again so very much for being my guest today. You were awesome. I completely comend everything that you're doing. Congratulations. This is so cool. I personally cannot wait to follow your journey and success and future success. So thank you so much for being here and for sharing your art with the world. I know that what you're doing is making a difference and it will bring about some change. And so thank you so much.
[00:30:49] Anh Le: Yeah, thank you very much for having me involved, Lindsey. I'm looking forward to see more artists coming from your podcast because I surely love enjoying listening on your stories and support.
[00:31:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, and thank you so much for everyone who has listened to this episode. I truly appreciate your support. And I hope that you have a day that is absolutely fantastic. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.
[00:31:26] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.
[00:31:35] Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes, and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment, and then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast. Even a very small monthly donation, like $5 a month, would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I have set up a PayPal account that you can access through the artfully told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors. So everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.